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Thomas Downes not a good man?


Rammer2k

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Rammer2k

Replaying the the story again, I have to ask was Thomas Downes really a good man?  Forget the fact he infected Arthur with TB. Not only was he pan handling all day only to give to poor strangers.  But he also negleted his ranch so bad that  the debt was way more than what it was worth.  To top it off, he takes a slimey loan from Strause knowing he''ll never repay it.  Plus he's sick, and dying knowing his debt will be forced on his wife.  We're meant to feel bad for him, but really be was the cause for his family being in the spot they were.

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  • 2 weeks later...
billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)

Getting TB is 100% Arthur's fault for beating a sick man

 

Collecting donations for charity isn't "pan handling" and at that point he wasn't as sick. Collecting donations for himself would be "pan handling" and collecting them for himself while pretending it was for charity would be a scam and a horrible thing to do

 

He didn't neglect his ranch, he was failing to make enough money/food from it due to bad luck maybe with weather or crops who knows (something all farmers can face, and in those days there was no way to get bailed out if that happened) which is why he had to take the loan in the first place, and then couldn't run it properly due to being too sick to keep up with the work

 

He takes the loan because he literally has no other choice. That's how it was back then, there was no safety net and it was take a sh*tty loan from an exploitative scumbag and hope you'd find a way to pay it back or watch your farm/home get repossessed and see your family starve on the street. There was no welfare, nothing. Strauss probably pretended to be more charitable but even if he knew how scummy he was he still didn't have another choice but to take a loan when he needed money to prevent losing the farm. At the time he probably thought or hoped he'd be able to pay it back with profits from the farm that the loan had prevented him losing, but then he got too sick so he was screwed. Again not something within his control.

 

It wasn't his fault at all. What do you think would have happened if he didn't take the loan? The only difference would have been they would have had their farm repossessed by the bank and been thrown out sooner, and he might have lived slightly longer (although doubtful if he was under the stress of becoming homeless which likely would have worsened his illness just as fast). What would you have done in his position?

 

 

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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  • 4 weeks later...
Lemoyne outlaw

i think he had good intentions. but he wasn't very smart. he was trying to make money to help others. which is a good thing to do. but he should have been more focused on himself and his family first. i still feel like he intentionally spat on arthur. he could have moved his head to spit away. but he spat right in front of him. and if he did do it intentionally. then i think that proves that he isn't as innocent as people think he is. 

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Agent Edward
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

i think he had good intentions. but he wasn't very smart. he was trying to make money to help others. which is a good thing to do. but he should have been more focused on himself and his family first. i still feel like he intentionally spat on arthur. he could have moved his head to spit away. but he spat right in front of him. and if he did do it intentionally. then i think that proves that he isn't as innocent as people think he is. 

When someone is in the situation that Downes was, knowing that another man is about to kill you, you wanna harm him back in any way you can, Downes did what anyone else would do in that situation, Arthur was the bastard in that moment, not him, he got what he deserved.

Edited by Agent Edward
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Lemoyne outlaw
3 minutes ago, Agent Edward said:

When someone is in the situation that Downes was, knowing that another man is about to kill you, you wanna harm him back in any way you can, Downes did what anyone else would do in that situation, Arthur was the bastard in that moment, not him, he got what he deserved.

Arthur wasn't trying to kill him. he was just there to get the debt. and technically Thomas attacked Arthur first with the farm tool. so i wouldn't say Thomas was innocent in what happened. also spitting on Arthur wouldn't have saved him anyway. it's not like a gun where shooting someone is an instant kill. Arthur still lived for many months. so it was pointless to spit on Arthur. at the end of the day it's still Thomas's fault. he took the debt. i get that he might not have had many options. but he can't blame Arthur for his own misfortune. also Arthur can be nonviolent towards Thomas too. so you could go through the whole encounter without hurting him. and he still gives Arthur tb. 

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billiejoearmstrong8

He didn't spit at him though he just coughed. TB is rarely spread that way, it usually takes repeated exposure eg by living in close quarters with someone and Arthur was very unlucky to get it. Plus people weren't generally well informed about how diseases spread. So people weren't going around spitting it at their enemies like a chemical weapon. He just coughed due to Arthur beating him.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Cluckin Bell CEO
1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

He didn't spit at him though he just coughed. TB is rarely spread that way, it usually takes repeated exposure eg by living in close quarters with someone and Arthur was very unlucky to get it. Plus people weren't generally well informed about how diseases spread. So people weren't going around spitting it at their enemies like a chemical weapon. He just coughed due to Arthur beating him.

 

he coughed directly on arthur's face, so yes he definitely did it as a way to insult arthur

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  • 3 weeks later...
Agent Edward
Posted (edited)
On 6/6/2024 at 6:32 PM, Lemoyne outlaw said:

Arthur wasn't trying to kill him. he was just there to get the debt. and technically Thomas attacked Arthur first with the farm tool. so i wouldn't say Thomas was innocent in what happened. also spitting on Arthur wouldn't have saved him anyway. it's not like a gun where shooting someone is an instant kill. Arthur still lived for many months. so it was pointless to spit on Arthur. at the end of the day it's still Thomas's fault. he took the debt. i get that he might not have had many options. but he can't blame Arthur for his own misfortune. also Arthur can be nonviolent towards Thomas too. so you could go through the whole encounter without hurting him. and he still gives Arthur tb. 

Downes attacked Arthur because he charged towards him as if he was gonna hit him or something, so he got scared and tried to defend himself of the upcoming injure, Arthur WAS there to hurt Downes, every debt he collected prior to his was by hurting either the debtor or someone else (Cooper instead of Lily), and Downes wouldn't be an exception.

 

Also, it's like @billiejoearmstrong8 said, Downes had tuberculosis and he was getting beat up by Arthur, he was gonna cough eventually and it just happened to be when they were face to face to each other, even Arthur acknowledged this and didn't beat him more for this reason, people back then probably didn't even know what a bacterium was, let alone that they could cough in someone's face and make him sick too.

 

What you mean by "we can be non violent to him"? Do you know what the concept of violence is? The mere threat of hurting someone already is a sort of violence, not to mention that we can complete the mission without "hitting" him, but we still have to "toss" him around some, which IS violence, and during the cutscenes and other dialogues the game considers that we beated him up anyway, so it don't make a difference.

 

Quoting @billiejoearmstrong8 again, Arthur getting tuberculosis and dying because of it is 100% his fault, for doing Strauss' dirty work and being a asshole while at it, case in point.

Edited by Agent Edward
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Lemoyne outlaw
6 hours ago, Agent Edward said:

Downes attacked Arthur because he charged towards him as if he was gonna hit him or something, so he got scared and tried to defend himself of the upcoming injure, Arthur WAS there to hurt Downes, every debt he collected prior to his was by hurting either the debtor or someone else (Cooper instead of Lily), and Downes wouldn't be an exception.

 

Also, it's like @billiejoearmstrong8 said, Downes had tuberculosis and he was getting beat up by Arthur, he was gonna cough eventually and it just happened to be when they were face to face to each other, even Arthur acknowledged this and didn't beat him more for this reason, people back then probably didn't even know what a bacterium was, let alone that they could cough in someone's face and make him sick too.

 

What you mean by "we can be non violent to him"? Do you know what the concept of violence is? The mere threat of hurting someone already is a sort of violence, not to mention that we can complete the mission without "hitting" him, but we still have to "toss" him around some, which IS violence, and during the cutscenes and other dialogues the game considers that we beated him up anyway, so it don't make a difference.

 

Quoting @billiejoearmstrong8 again, Arthur getting tuberculosis and dying because of it is 100% his fault, for doing Strauss' dirty work and being a asshole while at it, case in point.

the only reason that arthur has to hurt the debtors. is because they refused to give it up right away. if they gave him the money as soon as he asked for it. then nobody would have gotten hurt and the mission would be over in seconds. so yes thomas did start the fight. and as you could imagine arthur would not take getting hit by that rake kindly. 

 

it wasn't just a cough. he spat blood on arthur. he could have turned his head to avoid hitting him but he didn't.

 

it's obvious that we have different opinions on this so let's just agree to disagree. no point turning this into a debate thread.

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Agent Edward
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

the only reason that arthur has to hurt the debtors. is because they refused to give it up right away. if they gave him the money as soon as he asked for it. then nobody would have gotten hurt and the mission would be over in seconds. so yes thomas did start the fight. and as you could imagine arthur would not take getting hit by that rake kindly.

You're looking at the situation from a bully's perspective, first of all, Strauss was the one who went to Valentine and its surroundings looking to lend loans to the locals, and he cleary looks for the ones who won't be able to pay him back, so he can send someone after them to take everything they got, he's a vulture, and Arthur cleary knows this and accepts to help him anyway, so they're just as bad as each other, at the beginning at least before his redemption arc begins, but still.

 

With this in mind, of course Downes would hesitate to pay him back, he didn't have means to do it!!! There wasn't a way for him to not get hurt in that situation and this was cleary planned by both Strauss and Arthur to happen exactly like it did, excepting that Arthur didn't think that Downes would die, but he did, which is exactly what he was trying to avoid when he tried to hit Arthur with the rake, who, as I said before, was charging towards him throwing his body around as if he was gonna hit him first.

 

1 hour ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

it wasn't just a cough. he spat blood on arthur. he could have turned his head to avoid hitting him but he didn't.

Have you paid attention to how much blood Arthur coughs around after he discovers that he got tuberculosis? What Downes did was no different, he coughed blood and it just happened to hit Arthur's face, he was sick and hurt, do you expect him to think about turning his head to cough when he can barely move at all?

 

1 hour ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

it's obvious that we have different opinions on this so let's just agree to disagree. no point turning this into a debate thread.

I mean... this is kinda the reason why this topic exists, but if we're gonna keep disagreeing with each other all the time...

 

Bro, I get why you're trying to defend Arthur, he's the game's protagonist and the character who we relate to and love the most, but let's remember that he isn't perfect, just like me, you, and his mistakes were what made him die like that, taking everything a sick man had and beating him to death, turning his widow into a prostiture and making his son get harassed by bullies into that coal mine because he didn't have the farm to work there anymore. Another big mistake Arthur made was not getting rid of Micah when he could due to blind loyalty to Dutch, which also backfired against him in the end, but this is a story for another day.

 

Anyway, returning to the Downes, can you imagine having to sleep with every man who pays because you just lost everything you had, your husband, your house, knowing that your son knows you're in this situation and not knowing if he understands the situation or if he's angry with you for doing it? All of this without even have time to mourn your husband's death? This is exactly what Arthur did to them, so he is far from being a good man and he deserved to die, which is fine, we're Rockstar Games fans because we like realistic stories, not fairy tales, but still.

Edited by Agent Edward
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billiejoearmstrong8
On 6/14/2024 at 3:17 PM, Cluckin Bell CEO said:

 

he coughed directly on arthur's face, so yes he definitely did it as a way to insult arthur

To insult him maybe, but to spit disease at him like poison to try and infect him very unlikely. That just wasn't a thing, people didn't know how diseases worked like that. If they did Arthur would have been more careful about getting close to him.

 

On 7/2/2024 at 6:11 PM, Lemoyne outlaw said:

the only reason that arthur has to hurt the debtors. is because they refused to give it up right away. if they gave him the money as soon as he asked for it. then nobody would have gotten hurt and the mission would be over in seconds. so yes thomas did start the fight. and as you could imagine arthur would not take getting hit by that rake kindly. 

 

it wasn't just a cough. he spat blood on arthur. he could have turned his head to avoid hitting him but he didn't.

 

it's obvious that we have different opinions on this so let's just agree to disagree. no point turning this into a debate thread.

Downes doesn't have the money to give him. And in other cases the people are desperately poor and hoping not to lose everything they have and die in the streets, so they hope they can convince him or trick him to give them more time. He doesn't "have" to beat them because they owe money, that is illegal and immoral. Many poor people were forced to take on debt in the past because they literally had no other options, it was very common. Legitimate money lenders could take legal action to make them pay. Strauss/Arthur/the VDL gang aren't legitimate money lenders they're criminal scumbags who specifically target people they know won't be able to pay (only reason they go to them is because legit money lenders wouldn't lend to them) and then illegally assault them to get the money.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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