Jump to content

How do we know that Claude didn't betray King Courtney?


Wolfhawk33

Recommended Posts

Wolfhawk33

Ok so in the mission in the "Kingdom come" King Courtney works together with Catalina to lure Claude into a trap and Kill him, and people saw this as a Betrayal,

 

But I think Courtney may have be Justified, and maybe Claude betrayed him first, and here's  why

 

in the mission grand theft Aero, Claude confronts Miguel and Catalina, and she says, "I left you pouring your heart out in the gutter" and she's most likely referring to the opening cutscene, in "Kingdom come", the letter that she leaves show that she's aware that Claude has been running around

 

So it makes since for "G.T.Aero" to come before Kingdom come"

 

Now if look at the events of those 2 missions, in that order, then by time of "Kingdom come"

 

Claude has betrayed both the Diablos and the Yakuza, just for some quick cash, He's Killed Kenji,  He's Killed Multiple Diablos, and he's helped the Yardies get cars, that they can use to sneak on to their turf,

 

Even if some this was Beneficial for the Yardies, the fact that Claude did it, without hesitation, is concerning especially since the Diablos and Yakuza, never did anything to him, (except maybe Kenji yelling at him, but I don't think that's justifiable reason for Claude to try to Kill him)

 

 

But now let's say only "Kingdom come" came after "G.T.Aero" but Courtney's other three Mission took place around the time, Claude first went into Staunton, 

 

Depending on what order you did the missions,

 

You could have Claude start working with King Courtney and the Yardies, only to then try to frame them(Deal steal), and then later on, run over their dealers(smack down)

 

If that's the case, then Claude betrayed the Yardies

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin4004
3 hours ago, Wolfhawk33 said:

Ok so in the mission in the "Kingdom come" King Courtney works together with Catalina to lure Claude into a trap and Kill him, and people saw this as a Betrayal,

 

But I think Courtney may have be Justified, and maybe Claude betrayed him first, and here's  why

 

in the mission grand theft Aero, Claude confronts Miguel and Catalina, and she says, "I left you pouring your heart out in the gutter" and she's most likely referring to the opening cutscene, in "Kingdom come", the letter that she leaves show that she's aware that Claude has been running around

 

So it makes since for "G.T.Aero" to come before Kingdom come"

 

Now if look at the events of those 2 missions, in that order, then by time of "Kingdom come"

 

Claude has betrayed both the Diablos and the Yakuza, just for some quick cash, He's Killed Kenji,  He's Killed Multiple Diablos, and he's helped the Yardies get cars, that they can use to sneak on to their turf,

 

Even if some this was Beneficial for the Yardies, the fact that Claude did it, without hesitation, is concerning especially since the Diablos and Yakuza, never did anything to him, (except maybe Kenji yelling at him, but I don't think that's justifiable reason for Claude to try to Kill him)

 

 

But now let's say only "Kingdom come" came after "G.T.Aero" but Courtney's other three Mission took place around the time, Claude first went into Staunton, 

 

Depending on what order you did the missions,

 

You could have Claude start working with King Courtney and the Yardies, only to then try to frame them(Deal steal), and then later on, run over their dealers(smack down)

 

If that's the case, then Claude betrayed the Yardies

 

Alright, here's a quick explanation to make it all clear. Catalina somehow found out about Claude working for King Courtney (what I mean here is that she knew all along even before this mission and "Grand Theft Aero" took place and I will explain why later) and this is pretty much the main reason Claude's relations with Uptown Yardies were messed up afterward. King Courtney had to get rid of Claude for the sake of being allies with the Colombian Cartel and since Claude is the enemy of Catalina from the get-go, he is automatically the enemy of the Colombian Cartel and they won't tolerate that one of their allies use him. 

 

How do I know that Catalina knew that Claude was alive even before the missions "Kingdom Come" and "Grand Theft Aero"? There are two reasons. First, if one of the successful bank robbers like Claude survives, every newspaper in town would be screaming about it for a few days. But more importantly, in the mission "Bait", Claude and Asuka learn that Catalina is already afraid of Claude getting revenge on her and that's why she sends multiple death squads around the city to hunt him down before he gets to her. Ironically enough, the death squads are only located in Shoreside Vale where Claude was absent during like 75% of the storyline. And now the very important thing to underline, Catalina didn't decide to unleash these guys right after the "Grand Theft Aero" for one simple reason - Miguel wouldn't be able to know about this since he was tortured by Asuka at the construction site while Catalina escaped. Miguel knows about this only because Catalina used this little "insurance" already after she found out that Claude is still alive and that could have happened even a few days after he got released from the hospital and then straight into jail to await trial. 

 

And now taking all this into account, we go to the "Grand Theft Aero" mission where there is a confrontation between the former couple. Yes, Catalina brings up the fact that the last time she saw him, he was dying in the alleyway. However, this is not a sign that she only now knows Claude survived, but the reason is even simpler, she is just very surprised that he got here in the first place. Just take a look at this, Catalina has already sent death squads all over Shoreside Vale to get him killed long before this cutscene and on top of that, he appeared on the construction site that is heavily protected. And that's not enough because Claude got here and Catalina realizes that it might be her end there. 

 

But coming back to your question, I would say that King Courtney technically did betray Claude, but when it comes to who did it first, it's totally up to the player. Just like you said, the player can perform King Courtney's missions before Kenji's missions and it will turn out King Courtney is the culprit, but if we do it the other way around, it just adds another reason for Courtney to betray Claude in the first place because he already did some bad things to Uptown Yardies (although it sounds weird that Courtney still wanted to work with Claude and "forgive him" what he did to his gang during Kenji's missions so it feels like Claude would probably complete the strand of Courtney's missions first but it's just how I would see it from the logical point of view).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wolfhawk33
5 hours ago, Martin4004 said:

Alright, here's a quick explanation to make it all clear. Catalina somehow found out about Claude working for King Courtney (what I mean here is that she knew all along even before this mission and "Grand Theft Aero" took place and I will explain why later) and this is pretty much the main reason Claude's relations with Uptown Yardies were messed up afterward. King Courtney had to get rid of Claude for the sake of being allies with the Colombian Cartel and since Claude is the enemy of Catalina from the get-go, he is automatically the enemy of the Colombian Cartel and they won't tolerate that one of their allies use him. 

 

How do I know that Catalina knew that Claude was alive even before the missions "Kingdom Come" and "Grand Theft Aero"? There are two reasons. First, if one of the successful bank robbers like Claude survives, every newspaper in town would be screaming about it for a few days. But more importantly, in the mission "Bait", Claude and Asuka learn that Catalina is already afraid of Claude getting revenge on her and that's why she sends multiple death squads around the city to hunt him down before he gets to her. Ironically enough, the death squads are only located in Shoreside Vale where Claude was absent during like 75% of the storyline. And now the very important thing to underline, Catalina didn't decide to unleash these guys right after the "Grand Theft Aero" for one simple reason - Miguel wouldn't be able to know about this since he was tortured by Asuka at the construction site while Catalina escaped. Miguel knows about this only because Catalina used this little "insurance" already after she found out that Claude is still alive and that could have happened even a few days after he got released from the hospital and then straight into jail to await trial. 

 

And now taking all this into account, we go to the "Grand Theft Aero" mission where there is a confrontation between the former couple. Yes, Catalina brings up the fact that the last time she saw him, he was dying in the alleyway. However, this is not a sign that she only now knows Claude survived, but the reason is even simpler, she is just very surprised that he got here in the first place. Just take a look at this, Catalina has already sent death squads all over Shoreside Vale to get him killed long before this cutscene and on top of that, he appeared on the construction site that is heavily protected. And that's not enough because Claude got here and Catalina realizes that it might be her end there. 

 

But coming back to your question, I would say that King Courtney technically did betray Claude, but when it comes to who did it first, it's totally up to the player. Just like you said, the player can perform King Courtney's missions before Kenji's missions and it will turn out King Courtney is the culprit, but if we do it the other way around, it just adds another reason for Courtney to betray Claude in the first place because he already did some bad things to Uptown Yardies (although it sounds weird that Courtney still wanted to work with Claude and "forgive him" what he did to his gang during Kenji's missions so it feels like Claude would probably complete the strand of Courtney's missions first but it's just how I would see it from the logical point of view).

But in the intro to the game, it's revealed that someone hacked in to the police database and removed  traces of criminal activities including Claude's, and since the police never try to attack you, nor does anyone expect for enemy gang members attack you, I think it's safe to say that no one, even knew that Claude escaped, and that there wasn't a paper with Claude's face that says "escaped convict"  the only hint that Catalina would have, is if, there was a newspaper that said "police convoy ambushed" but again the lack of any mission of Claude, makes it hard to make that collection, and Catalina probably thought Claude was dead and the police just found a body, I mean hell the back of the game case, says "you've been betrayed and left for dead" and Catalina did shoot him point bank

 

As for how Miguel knows about the death squads, those death squads still could've been an insurance that Catalina has, even before she found out, that Claude was alive, And Miguel could've something like, "If Claude is alive, then Catalina has probably sent out her deathsquads" 

 

That or it's a error by Rockstar, cause R* has made mistakes with the dialog and have characters act like they know eachother, or Know something in one mission, and then don't in another mission

 

And even without all that I can still justify Courtney trying to have Claude killed since by doing Courtney's Missions, Claude has shown he's willing to betray the Diablos and the Yakuza, just for some quick cash, so what's stopping him from doing the same thing with the Yardies 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wolfhawk33
6 hours ago, Martin4004 said:

(although it sounds weird that Courtney still wanted to work with Claude and "forgive him" what he did to his gang during Kenji's missions so it feels like Claude would probably complete the strand of Courtney's missions first but it's just how I would see it from the logical point of view).

There's also the possibility that, Courtney at firstb didn't know about what Claude did to his gang under Kenji's order, but found out, before Kingdom Come

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin4004
16 hours ago, Wolfhawk33 said:

But in the intro to the game, it's revealed that someone hacked in to the police database and removed  traces of criminal activities including Claude's, and since the police never try to attack you, nor does anyone expect for enemy gang members attack you, I think it's safe to say that no one, even knew that Claude escaped, and that there wasn't a paper with Claude's face that says "escaped convict"  the only hint that Catalina would have, is if, there was a newspaper that said "police convoy ambushed" but again the lack of any mission of Claude, makes it hard to make that collection, and Catalina probably thought Claude was dead and the police just found a body, I mean hell the back of the game case, says "you've been betrayed and left for dead" and Catalina did shoot him point bank

 

As for how Miguel knows about the death squads, those death squads still could've been an insurance that Catalina has, even before she found out, that Claude was alive, And Miguel could've something like, "If Claude is alive, then Catalina has probably sent out her deathsquads" 

 

That or it's a error by Rockstar, cause R* has made mistakes with the dialog and have characters act like they know eachother, or Know something in one mission, and then don't in another mission

 

And even without all that I can still justify Courtney trying to have Claude killed since by doing Courtney's Missions, Claude has shown he's willing to betray the Diablos and the Yakuza, just for some quick cash, so what's stopping him from doing the same thing with the Yardies 

Fair enough, but still the police database got hacked only during the Jailbreak cutscene, which means that Claude was known to the police before that event, i.e. getting caught after the bank robbery. Hell, we even get a Liberty Tree newspaper where one of the headlines is about Claude and how he gets sentenced to 10 years in prison. So I do agree with you that Claude temporarily disappeared from the police records during the Jailbreak cutscene and perhaps a bit afterwards until he was making some big crimes in the missions that got him like two-star wanted level or higher than that. However, Claude was taken by the police after the bank robbery and later on, the developers "throw" in our faces a Liberty Tree newspaper which mentions the verdict of Claude's court case on the first page. Taking into account that it was mentioned in the newspaper, it's pretty much impossible for Catalina not to find out about it unless she is retarded or something (sorry for bad language there). 

 

What's funny though is that Claude was extremely lucky that the Colombians didn't know that he was to be escorted in the same convoy as the Oriental Gentleman. And what's more, if it wasn't for that coincidence, Claude would probably rot in prison already, so he got double lucky there. In turn, if they knew that Claude would be there as well, he would have been killed on the spot as Catalina is already working with Miguel and bearing in mind that Claude is still a great danger to her, he is one of the primary targets (the fact that Catalina sent her death squads is already a big argument in favor of this). So again, I am 100% convinced that Catalina did know that Claude survived her betrayal in the alleyway but simply didn't know where he was until she started connecting the dots (Claude wasn't successfully "delivered" to the penitentiary+ the attack on police convoy on Callahan Bridge), figuring out that unfortunately for her, he currently is still at large. 

 

When it comes to King Courtney, I am definitely with you on that one, the fact that Claude has no objection to betraying the gangs he worked for could be another reason why Courtney could be worried. In fact, you can pin many different reasons as to why the situation got like this in the "Kingdom Come" mission in the first place, although I would probably still emphasize the fact that King Courtney had to do it in order to maintain a good relationship with the Cartel.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeansowaty

Where did you guys get the thing about the database being hacked? My memory's rusty lol

"Let death take my enemies by surprise; let them go down alive to the grave, for evil finds lodging among them."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jeansowaty said:

Where did you guys get the thing about the database being hacked? My memory's rusty lol

It's mentioned during the introduction by the news reporter voice.

  • Like 1
  • Best Bru 1
Who is the strongest? Who is the best? Who holds the aces, the East or the West?

CslLPae.png

This is the CRAP... our children are learning?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evil empire

From an immersion friendly point of view Claude is engaged in a double dealing with the yardies and the yakuza. If he betrayed King Courtney or not depends of who he works for first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
Wolfhawk33
On 1/18/2024 at 4:50 AM, Martin4004 said:

Fair enough, but still the police database got hacked only during the Jailbreak cutscene, which means that Claude was known to the police before that event, i.e. getting caught after the bank robbery. Hell, we even get a Liberty Tree newspaper where one of the headlines is about Claude and how he gets sentenced to 10 years in prison. So I do agree with you that Claude temporarily disappeared from the police records during the Jailbreak cutscene and perhaps a bit afterwards until he was making some big crimes in the missions that got him like two-star wanted level or higher than that. However, Claude was taken by the police after the bank robbery and later on, the developers "throw" in our faces a Liberty Tree newspaper which mentions the verdict of Claude's court case on the first page. Taking into account that it was mentioned in the newspaper, it's pretty much impossible for Catalina not to find out about it unless she is retarded or something (sorry for bad language there). 

 

What's funny though is that Claude was extremely lucky that the Colombians didn't know that he was to be escorted in the same convoy as the Oriental Gentleman. And what's more, if it wasn't for that coincidence, Claude would probably rot in prison already, so he got double lucky there. In turn, if they knew that Claude would be there as well, he would have been killed on the spot as Catalina is already working with Miguel and bearing in mind that Claude is still a great danger to her, he is one of the primary targets (the fact that Catalina sent her death squads is already a big argument in favor of this). So again, I am 100% convinced that Catalina did know that Claude survived her betrayal in the alleyway but simply didn't know where he was until she started connecting the dots (Claude wasn't successfully "delivered" to the penitentiary+ the attack on police convoy on Callahan Bridge), figuring out that unfortunately for her, he currently is still at large. 

 

When it comes to King Courtney, I am definitely with you on that one, the fact that Claude has no objection to betraying the gangs he worked for could be another reason why Courtney could be worried. In fact, you can pin many different reasons as to why the situation got like this in the "Kingdom Come" mission in the first place, although I would probably still emphasize the fact that King Courtney had to do it in order to maintain a good relationship with the Cartel.

Hey I know it's been a while, but I just thought of 2 explanation for why in "Grand theft Aero" Catalina acts like this is the first time seeing Claude since the introduction, while in "bait" Asuka says that Miguel has knowledge of 3 death squads that Catalina had already had ready

 

1. Catalina didn't expect for Claude to be able to start going after her, but she still had the death squads just in case

 

2. Before "G.T.AERO" Catalina knows that someone has been causing trouble for the Cartel in their spank business, from preventing the triads from selling it, killing there informant in the Leones and blowing up their "spank ship" in Portland, to messing with their relationship with the Yardies, igniting a war Between them in the Yakuza, and rescuing and keeping the OOG safe from them, to possibly(depending on what order you do the missions)preventing them from selling in Shoreside Vale through the Purple Nines, and those death squads are for that person or those people, but they don't know who they are, until "G.T.AERO", and the moment Catalina and Miguel see Claude, they realize(or correctly assumed) that he's the one that's been causing them trouble, and Miguel realizes that now Catalina will send those death squads after Claude

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin4004
22 hours ago, Wolfhawk33 said:

Hey I know it's been a while, but I just thought of 2 explanation for why in "Grand theft Aero" Catalina acts like this is the first time seeing Claude since the introduction, while in "bait" Asuka says that Miguel has knowledge of 3 death squads that Catalina had already had ready

 

1. Catalina didn't expect for Claude to be able to start going after her, but she still had the death squads just in case

 

2. Before "G.T.AERO" Catalina knows that someone has been causing trouble for the Cartel in their spank business, from preventing the triads from selling it, killing there informant in the Leones and blowing up their "spank ship" in Portland, to messing with their relationship with the Yardies, igniting a war Between them in the Yakuza, and rescuing and keeping the OOG safe from them, to possibly(depending on what order you do the missions)preventing them from selling in Shoreside Vale through the Purple Nines, and those death squads are for that person or those people, but they don't know who they are, until "G.T.AERO", and the moment Catalina and Miguel see Claude, they realize(or correctly assumed) that he's the one that's been causing them trouble, and Miguel realizes that now Catalina will send those death squads after Claude

 

 

 

So pretty much what I said in previous replies except for the death squads issue ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wolfhawk33
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Martin4004 said:

So pretty much what I said in previous replies except for the death squads issue ;)

No, there's a difference 

 

With your explanation, Catalina figure out that Claude is alive thanks to all the Chaos he's been causing, 

 

With my explanation, she doesn't know that Claude is behind all the chaos that's been happening, until G.T.Aero 

Edited by Wolfhawk33
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • 1 User Currently Viewing
    0 members, 0 Anonymous, 1 Guest

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using GTAForums.com, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.