GTA VI ""Leaks"" Analysis Thread Part II

[Spider-Vice]

12 minutes ago, Agent Edward said:

Ray Tracing reflections and shadows are completely optional in GTA5 (PS5/XSX), so it wouldn't be the first time that Rockstar would use alternate rendering methods for such things in performance modes, maybe for lighting, yeah, but there's always a first time for everything.

Well, yes, but that's GTA V, so I could see why someone would think VI would make it mandatory. Except if they want to make it as accessible as possible on PC they would have to work on their raster lighting as well, and I think that will probably happen.

[Jason]

7 minutes ago, Emmi said:

I mean do we have any comparable developer having released a game on current gen hardware which would have not been possible on PS4/Xbox One hardware yet?

 

There are games that have mandatory RT, but nothing on the scale of GTA VI in terms of density and detail.

 

Avatar's GI is RT only, and it has some really amazing looking dense foliage, it's a game that is flat out not possible on last-gen consoles, no ifs or buts, and that game does have a 60fps mode, but that aint doing what VI is doing when it comes to density and detail like I said.

 

Beyond that, I mean there's multiple games I'd say that simply wouldn't run at 1080p/30 on last-gen consoles, sheer visual fidelity isn't the only thing at play here, but VI like all R* games combines really high end fidelity with that gameplay complexity, and that just makes 60fps that much harder.

[Emmi]

I am talking about anything OTHER than visuals ... and I challenge you @Jason to tell me a game which - again RT, visual settings, etc. aside - would have been IMPOSSIBLE on last-gen hardware.

[Alex345]

20 minutes ago, Emmi said:

I mean do we have any comparable developer having released a game on current gen hardware which would have not been possible on PS4/Xbox One hardware yet? The simple answer is no. Really noone pushed the PS5/XSX to its limits (not by any means!) and thus I can totally see them (R*) achieving 60fps with GTA VI. It's Rockstar after all and they showed how good they are at optimizing their games with RDR2 on PS4/Xbox One which on the paper shouldn't have been possible on those systems. I can see GTA VI run at 60fps on PS5/XSX but not on Series S (it'll be capped to 30fps there).

Shilling for a company will get you nowhere good. The ps5/xsx has already been pushed to there limits that's why we have games with worse resolutions than the PS4 gen. The so called next gen hardware now outdated. What I hate about console gamers is that they want the PC experience without actual getting a PC so they cope with post like this.

Edited March 8, 2024 by Alex345

[Agent Edward]

7 minutes ago, Emmi said:

I am talking about anything OTHER than visuals ... and I challenge you @Jason to tell me a game which - again RT, visual settings, etc. aside - would have been IMPOSSIBLE on last-gen hardware.

I can't think of a PS5 game which couldn't run in a PS4 without Ray Tracing and with lower settings myself, maybe GTA6 will be the first one or maybe I'm just forgetting some heavy ass game out there.

Edited March 8, 2024 by Agent Edward

[Jason]

4 minutes ago, Emmi said:

I am talking about anything OTHER than visuals ... and I challenge you @Jason to tell me a game which - again RT, visual settings, etc. aside - would have been IMPOSSIBLE on last-gen hardware.

 

This is verging on moving goal posts, on top of being a bit of a slippery argument, cause visuals and under the hood complexity can and often are very related, particularly in terms of things like density, be it AI, foliage, whatever, and without those things a game can feel like a different game altogether.

 

I think something like Avatar with it's density of foliage, RTGI, flying, wouldn't work on last-gen, just from a streaming perspective alone. The density and level of detail in a lot of open worlds these days is flying up cause SSD's allow them to stream stuff in and out near instantly, where as last-gen they had to be careful with stuff like that. Something like Baldur's Gate 3 also probably would really struggle on last-gen, for various reasons. The sandbox simulation would bring those ancient CPU's to their knees even aiming just for 1080p/30 and when you add in multiplayer (which is part of BG3's special sauce), where the game has to be able to run that simulation four times essentially, last-gen consoles would probably blow up.

 

I know the upcoming Dragon's Dogma 2, out in 2-3 weeks, is doing a lot of really cool stuff with dynamic NPC's, perma-death aspects and the like as well, and that's the sort of thing that is heavy under the hood.

 

I think people really do forget just how slow those PS4/XB1 CPU's are, and how far we've come in just 4 years now that developers can finally stop making worlds around ridiculously slow HDD's lol.

 

Rockstar will take it up a level of course, they always do, they have the tech and resources to do things almost no other studio can and that's what makes their games especially amazing, but if your standards are basically that unless a studio can do what R* can do they aren't pushing the hardware, then you'll be buying a $500 console for 1 game in the entire consoles lifespan lol.

[DUNK512]

26 minutes ago, Emmi said:

I am talking about anything OTHER than visuals ... and I challenge you @Jason to tell me a game which - again RT, visual settings, etc. aside - would have been IMPOSSIBLE on last-gen hardware.

Alan Wake 2

Baldur's gate 3 

Dragon's dogma 2 

Helldivers 2 

FF7 Rebirth 

Spiderman 2 (the sense of speed is impossible without that SSD) 

probably a whole lot more.

 

Edited March 8, 2024 by DUNK512

[Alex345]

21 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

This is verging on moving goal posts, on top of being a bit of a slippery argument, cause visuals and under the hood complexity can and often are very related, particularly in terms of things like density, be it AI, foliage, whatever, and without those things a game can feel like a different game altogether.

 

I think something like Avatar with it's density of foliage, RTGI, flying, wouldn't work on last-gen, just from a streaming perspective alone. The density and level of detail in a lot of open worlds these days is flying up cause SSD's allow them to stream stuff in and out near instantly, where as last-gen they had to be careful with stuff like that. Something like Baldur's Gate 3 also probably would really struggle on last-gen, for various reasons. The sandbox simulation would bring those ancient CPU's to their knees even aiming just for 1080p/30 and when you add in multiplayer (which is part of BG3's special sauce), where the game has to be able to run that simulation four times essentially, last-gen consoles would probably blow up.

 

I know the upcoming Dragon's Dogma 2, out in 2-3 weeks, is doing a lot of really cool stuff with dynamic NPC's, perma-death aspects and the like as well, and that's the sort of thing that is heavy under the hood.

 

I think people really do forget just how slow those PS4/XB1 CPU's are, and how far we've come in just 4 years now that developers can finally stop making worlds around ridiculously slow HDD's lol.

 

Rockstar will take it up a level of course, they always do, they have the tech and resources to do things almost no other studio can and that's what makes their games especially amazing, but if your standards are basically that unless a studio can do what R* can do they aren't pushing the hardware, then you'll be buying a $500 console for 1 game in the entire consoles lifespan lol.

I don't see Avatar being possible on a PS4 either they would have to reduce the geometrical complexity of everything due to the weak jaguar CPU(It was used to decompress data unlike on the ps5 where there is custom hardware solution for that) and the slow hdd which would make streaming those kind of assets seen in Avatar difficult.

[Alex345]

35 minutes ago, DUNK512 said:

Alan Wake 2

Baldur's gate 3 

Dragon's dogma 2 

Helldivers 2 

FF7 Rebirth 

Spiderman 2 (the sense of speed is impossible without that SSD) 

probably a whole lot more.

 

Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart could be added to that list too

[Jason]

5 minutes ago, Alex345 said:

Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart could be added to that list too

 

Purely from a storage stand point and nothing more, it is playable on a HDD but it introduces issues like longer load times (which look silly during the world hopping part), cutscene stutter and lag and some general stutter during gameplay. It's not completely unplayable on a HDD, but it's not a way anyone would recommend playing the game either, lol.

[Alex345]

12 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

Purely from a storage stand point and nothing more, it is playable on a HDD but it introduces issues like longer load times (which look silly during the world hopping part), cutscene stutter and lag and some general stutter during gameplay. It's not completely unplayable on a HDD, but it's not a way anyone would recommend playing the game either, lol.

Not just the hdd I think the cpu as well if a cpu struggles to stream in assets it will introduce stutters and we both know how weak the one in the PS4 is. Remember that rift apart has higher quality assets than it's predecessor on the ps4.

[Jason]

1 minute ago, Alex345 said:

Not just the hdd I think the cpu as well if a cpu struggles to stream in assets it will introduce stutters and we both know how weak the one in the PS4 is. Remember that rift apart has higher quality assets than it's predecessor on the ps4.

 

Oh yea, I was more saying that just from a storage point alone the game is at a level where it wouldn't be in a good place on last-gen hardware. Throw in other factors like CPU and GPU and it'd probably fall apart.

[Spider-Vice]

Tbh, can we please not bring a visuals argument into the "leaks" thread anyway   Enough places with that now.

[Zapper]

2 hours ago, Spider-Vice said:

I doubt the game on PC is gonna *require* ray tracing just yet so it's not at all out of the realm of possibility they'd have a raster lighting mode too.

 

I wouldn't be surprised. It's not like the game's coming out on PC anytime soon. Even if it hits the spring 2025 window, the PC version will have to come out in 6-7 months to make it in 2025. Realistically, we're talking about a 2026 release. The Steam Hardware Survey is already dominated by cards that support RT, and that share will just keep going up.

 

I think the only reason they could consider a raster mode would be to achieve acceptable performance on Series S, not for PC scalability or 60FPS on base consoles. Otherwise, I'd expect R* to focus on one method, i.e., RT, and perfect it. I wouldn't be surprised if R* targets 540p internal resolution on Series S and upscales it to 900p or something to keep the bells and whistles intact, even at a lower quality.

[Ser_Salty]

1 minute ago, Zapper said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised. It's not like the game's coming out on PC anytime soon. Even if it hits the spring 2025 window, the PC version will have to come out in 6-7 months to make it in 2025. Realistically, we're talking about a 2026 release. The Steam Hardware Survey is already dominated by cards that support RT, and that share will just keep going up.

 

I think the only reason they could consider a raster mode would be to achieve acceptable performance on Series S, not for PC scalability or 60FPS on base consoles. Otherwise, I'd expect R* to focus on one method, i.e., RT, and perfect it. I wouldn't be surprised if R* targets 540p internal resolution on Series S and upscales it to 900p or something to keep the bells and whistles intact, even at a lower quality.

A lot of cards support RT, but only just barely. Not in any way with enough power for something like VI.

[Spider-Vice]

I don't think REQUIRED ray tracing is gonna happen just yet, not even in 2025. Beyond, perhaps. But absolutely not yet looking at how mainstream non-RT GPU's still are, especially on the AMD side, where you have GPU's with similar power to the PS5 but without RT (e.g. RX 5700 XT)

[Zapper]

18 minutes ago, Ser_Salty said:

A lot of cards support RT, but only just barely. Not in any way with enough power for something like VI.

 

That's exactly why I said if VI runs on Series S without sacrificing RT features completely (except quality), then that could easily be the baseline for the PC version in 2026—for a 900p-1080p@30fps experience with all low settings. Basically, like how RDR2 runs on GTX 770, which was officially recommended as the minimum required GPU.

 

And nothing's stopping R* from using hybrid solutions that bring the baseline requirements down but don't make any mode purely raster based. There are telltale signs in that trailer that they're, in fact, using hybrid solutions for many RT features.

[Emmi]

2 hours ago, DUNK512 said:

Spiderman 2 (the sense of speed is impossible without that SSD)

 

2 hours ago, Jason said:

... then you'll be buying a $500 console for 1 game in the entire consoles lifespan lol.

Yes, I do that. Besides because someone thought I don't own a PC ... I do have a capable PC.

[LitlleKuba]

52 minutes ago, Zapper said:

 

That's exactly why I said if VI runs on Series S without sacrificing RT features completely (except quality), then that could easily be the baseline for the PC version in 2026—for a 900p-1080p@30fps experience with all low settings. Basically, like how RDR2 runs on GTX 770, which was officially recommended as the minimum required GPU.

 

And nothing's stopping R* from using hybrid solutions that bring the baseline requirements down but don't make any mode purely raster based. There are telltale signs in that trailer that they're, in fact, using hybrid solutions for many RT features.

RT Reflections might be turn off on Series S, but RTGI nah, most likely they have their own in engine RTGI so whole GI is on that

Edited March 8, 2024 by LitlleKuba

[Jason]

Required RT is starting to happen, though GTA VI is likely to have a lower bottom floor in terms of min reqs as R* stuff is usually more scalable, so it's not a 100% for VI by any means.

 

But the whole what hardware is out there argument... The most popular GPU manufacture by a mile is nVidia and their first gen RT cards released six years ago as of today, it'll be 7 or 8 by the time VI launches on PC. We've got an undoubtedly big generation of GPU's coming up with nVidia's 5000 series, which a lot of 3000 series owners have been waiting on as skipping a generation is generally the way a lot of PC gamers go for GPU's.

 

By the time VI launches on PC raytracing capable cards will be standard, and we'll have well established versions of DLSS, FSR and XeSS, with more mature versions of FSR3, DLSS3 and potentially other options in there as well.

 

At some point those old cards are gonna be left behind and personally I'd say it's gonna happen sooner rather than later.

[NewCrossGate]

I don’t understand the hype about ray tracing, it’s literally just reflections. 

[Jason]

7 minutes ago, NewCrossGate said:

I don’t understand the hype about ray tracing, it’s literally just reflections. 

 

No it's not lol.

 

RT is a method to realistically do a lot of things, reflections is just one, but shadows, lighting, ambient occlusion are others.

 

If you want realistic graphics, raytracing is how we're gonna get it.

[jounashrty233]

Guys I checked that employee linkdin and it looks like he is legit , he is even credited for tlou2 remaster and it’s impossible to be a fake acc because he has important connections on linkdin , if he says the game is way better than tlou2 then we should be optimistic 

[Jason]

That's more proof that the person is real, not that he's the person answering questions above. Wouldn't be the first time someone found a dev on LinkedIn and posed as them.

 

And if he is an actual dev, he's hardly gonna say the game sucks is he lol.

[LitlleKuba]

2 hours ago, NewCrossGate said:

I don’t understand the hype about ray tracing, it’s literally just reflections. 

No is not, look how impressive is RTGI, and apparently Rockstar going all in with their in-engine RTGI, similar to 4A Games, Metro 4 will require RTGI to work and their goals are RTGI with 60fps on all Consoles Also on Series S 

[Miss Darko]

I'd say RTGI is the more meaningful innovation in my mind over RT reflections. It covers a lot of ground in rendering that's really difficult to pull off in traditional rendering when it comes to open world games with fully dynamic lighting. Rockstar's previous solutions have looked pretty good in their respective eras, but essentially this bridges the gap between a game like GTA and a more linear game with pre-baked lighting in terms of the accuracy of bounce lighting and occlusion. And then of course, because it's being done in real time, the lighting can be changed dramatically on the fly and it'll still look just as good, whether it's the time of day changing or even just characters in the scene moving around. If I had to choose only one method to be used in a game like GTA, it would be that one. It's the most notably transformative, I feel.

 

 

[jounashrty233]

15 minutes ago, Jason said:

That's more proof that the person is real, not that he's the person answering questions above. Wouldn't be the first time someone found a dev on LinkedIn and posed as them.

 

And if he is an actual dev, he's hardly gonna say the game sucks is he lol.

I see your doubts but he posted the stuff for an evidence and it looks like he is talking to his small circle not a clout chasing guy in general, I know he wont say it sucks but from his words he seems excited if he wasn’t pleased he would have stayed quiet most likely 

[Jason]

1 minute ago, Miss Darko said:

I'd say RTGI is the more meaningful innovation in my mind over RT reflections. It covers a lot of ground in rendering that's really difficult to pull off in traditional rendering when it comes to open world games with fully dynamic lighting. Rockstar's previous solutions have looked pretty good in their respective eras, but essentially this bridges the gap between a game like GTA and a more linear game with pre-baked lighting in terms of the accuracy of bounce lighting and occlusion. And then of course, because it's being done in real time, the lighting can be changed dramatically on the fly and it'll still look just as good, whether it's the time of day changing or even just characters in the scene moving around. If I had to choose only one method to be used in a game like GTA, it would be that one. It's the most notably transformative, I feel.

 

 

 

One of the benefits of RT, especially RTGI, is that it's a rising tide raises all ships type of thing.

 

There's a lot of talk about how there's been no leap this gen visually and all that... but I tell ya, the quality of lighting in games this gen has jumped up across the board. This isn't just down to RTGI it has to be said, non-RT GI has become more common, probably a byproduct of knowledge + better hardware, but we are now seeing developers use RT as their approach to various visual aspects of games and it's helping small studios make games that look as good as anything out there. UE5 especially with it's tehc like Lumen, which is basically raytracing, that's helping devs make big leaps too.

 

I mean I played Justant which runs on UE5 and it's visually incredibly good cause of the Lumen lighting, but last-gen those types of games had no chance getting lighting on par with the big budget stuff.

[Rockstarter]

Fake

[Pat]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

I know the upcoming Dragon's Dogma 2, out in 2-3 weeks, is doing a lot of really cool stuff with dynamic NPC's, perma-death aspects and the like as well, and that's the sort of thing that is heavy under the hood.

It's worth mentioning that from what I've seen, DD2 is currently targeting unlocked 30fps on consoles with no performance mode, and even then it supposedly has frequent drops below 30. Add that to Starfield, and that's now two large scale open world games that target 30fps on consoles. Anyone expecting a 60fps option in VI, even on the PS5 Pro, is setting themselves up for disappointment. Hoping for it is fine, but expecting it, not at all.