Parting Thoughts

[The Coconut Kid]

It’s difficult to know where to begin with this post. Perhaps it is best to begin with me.

I used to be this handsome bastard. I have been a regular in the GTA Series forums for sixteen years. I found an interest in the old GTA NeXt section and the artform that grew out of it called concept writing. Most of my post history has since been devoted to the GTAF community that has grown around this creative pursuit.

It has been a rewarding experience. I have essentially learned to read and write at acceptable levels from people who contribute to this forum. I have been encouraged to pursue writing as a passion and a career by people who have passed through this community. Many of them have become significant in my life. I have watched them offer extensive support to one another over many years and offer it myself as best I can.

It is extremely disheartening then that there would be such a lack of support from GTAF Staff when this section calls upon them for help.

This isn’t something we have to do often. I have reached out exactly once in the time I have been a user on this forum. The post that follows will draw attention to this experience and, more specifically, what you need to do better.

First, for clarity:

I approached a moderator to take action on a popular user who I discovered to be misleading our community with a multiple account. He has used this multiple account to praise his own topics and undermine others. He has literally used this account to carry out conversations with himself. He has finessed a fanfiction around concern for his whereabouts while being among us all along – something that appalls me.

I asked for a compassionate but decisive resolution. This was a friend of fifteen years and a respected member of the GTAF community. I have been told he has been privately warned. I have also been told that his behaviour has actually been found to be worse – he has been using two multiple accounts. And now I am being told the number is six multiple accounts. We’re going to run out of fingers to count them soon.

I’m not actually invested in what happens to this person now. I have not made this thread to discuss them. He has been irrelevant to me since I found out what he has been doing. What has brought me to leave GTAF has been the experience of reporting this user and the complete lack of support from staff.

Let me go back to the start. I really need you to take note of what has happened and learn from this.

 

• Lack of Approachable and Involved Staff

The hardest part of this was actually deciding who to raise the issue with.

There are no staff who actively interact with concept creators. There are no staff who engage with concept threads to encourage them or anticipate issues before they arise. There are no staff involved in the promotion of concept threads.  And this has been the case for years.

Who should I bring a problem to then? Especially issues that affect multiple people?

Spider?

They don’t appear to answer messages – a simple question two weeks ago RE: concept awards hasn’t even been opened.

Kirsty?

Hasn’t opened the message either – and has left me on read for a year trying to organise some much-anticipated promotion for the section.

Admins? Moderators?

I have to look up who they are – which involves a trip to Announcements because how do you find out who Staff actually are now?

I see that there are GTA section led-bys. But I haven’t actually seen them enough, or at all, to trust them with something like this.

I recognise a moderator who has been helpful at locking threads and moving posts around – so I bring it to them. And I want to make clear – I am not dissatisfied with them. I am disheartened by this whole process and it’s clear that it needs to be improved.

 

• Inadequate Rules & Poor Resolutions

The resolution I received has been based on the premise that no rule has really been broken – or at least not sufficiently to warrant a ban. And when rules have been broken, they’ve been broken using his multiple aliases – so his main account can’t be held accountable. What do you think has motivated him to use other accounts then?

I question this. I have to – especially when I’m told the behaviour is actually worse than what I reported.

I post in The Courthouse to appeal. The Courthouse, for those who haven’t had the pleasure, is a private area of the forum for issues to be heard by GTAF Staff.

It’s a nice idea - except I raised this issue a week ago and no one has bothered to follow up.

The Courthouse post has been unanswered. There are an entire roster of staff here and not one of you has offered support.

I have had to find out updates second hand. No one has actually responded to me. These updates include that my post probably won’t be responded to by staff because it is too long.

Staff. There are literally bulletpoints at the start and some screenshots to confirm what the person has done and the help I am asking for. Come on.

This person has since publicly and privately taken the piss out of your inaction – and to be honest, I don’t blame him.

And to top it off? They’ve been shown screenshots that were entrusted to me after I asked around to see if anyone noticed the same posting patterns with the multi accounts as I was seeing. Great job.

 

• Are We Part Of Your Community?

What disappoints me the most is how quickly you dismissed our concerns.

The response has been clear:

What this person has done affects you and your community - but it doesn't affect us and ours, so we aren’t going to act.

There is already the feeling that we have been left on our own – but it is quite something to be told, What this person has done doesn’t actually matter as much as you say it does – even though you have screenshots – so we don’t want to do anything more.

It is a poor stance to take for a forum that prides itself on inclusivity.

There are only two things that have been asked of Staff here:

 

• Acknowledge our concerns.
• Deal with the person in a way that is compassionate but acknowledges what they’ve done is wrong. Literally: “Your friends have missed you and they care about you – but what you’ve done is wrong. Dry out, come back in a few months, and don’t be a c*nt.”

You have let us down on both. You have let him down too.

I don’t regret bringing this to you and how I have tried to handle it in a way that minimises disruption to our community. But you really need to look back on how this has been handled and make sure you do better.

I’m going to close this out by leaving you my thoughts on how you can do better. It is important that you do.

 

Get to know your communites.

Know their posting habits. Know what entertains them. Learn to support them and elevate them when they are doing something well. Learn to spot it when they aren’t posting like themselves and put a stop to it before it starts. Take the lead on this and encourage people to follow it.

 

Learn how to take an active role in the communities you have been entrusted with from the gold standard that the concept community sets – and I don’t mean creating six accounts to compare yourself to classical poets. Encourage your users. Get involved in collaborations. Join in discussions. Reach out when things aren’t right. Make yourselves visible so we know who you are and that you can be approached – and if you can’t get accessible people: find new people. Get to know the members involved in the sections you oversee.

Support your communities.
Listen to people when they ask for support. Believe them when they raise concerns with you – and take them seriously. There are communities throughout this forum that don’t require thorough moderation – they rely on a system of trust that people can behave themselves and enjoy their time here. When this trust is broken you need to step in.

Always ask what can be done better. If you indicate that you are willing to listen to suggestions then listen. Use your wider GTAF networks to promote “subcommunities” and put them in the spotlight once in a while. Understand that the various niches on this forum make the entire GTAF network tick. Understand that a little recognition for them goes a long way.

Improve your rules – and apply them.
You need to make space in your current rules to confront manipulative and disruptive behaviour.

I have shown GTAF Staff entire chains of conversation that this person has orchestrated and you are telling me you cannot act on it beyond a verbal warning.

Worse still, you are telling us you cannot act on it because it only affects a subcommunity. Disgusting.

There is provision in your existing rules that allow you “...to remove [users] at any moment for any reason we deem necessary if you are disrupting to the community.”

You have been able to act on this. You just don’t want to. Your rules are not just for “the” community – they are for all of your community.

You don’t have to get to know communities. You don’t even have to support them. You certainly don’t have to like them. But you do need to back them up when someone breaks your rules and laughs at you while they’re doing it.

Please take one thing from this message: make sure your rules and resolution process does right by all of your community in the future. You have completely let me down – from report to resolution to follow up.

Do better by them than you’ve done by me,

The Coconut Kid

[slimeball supreme]

the conduct here by staff is shameful. the concept/creative segment of the forum has always been a very underrepresented and underappreciated part of the community. the inaction and shirking of responsibilities by the powers entrusted to deal with this section is pitiful. this person made two highly active alt accounts for the purpose of boosting his own work and undermining others, and six (if not more!) are probably used for this. by allowing this to go unchecked you have functionally given them special dispensation; you have given anyone permission to do exactly the same thing.

 

there's nothing stopping me from making NotSlimeballSupreme2 and bumping my threads every week, after posting in others that they arent as good as mine. dont blame anyone else for doing the same when you set that precedent.

 

coco has come and gone from this forum. in my view he is one of the most valuable contributors to this site in terms of feedback and his own creative work. i cannot forgive the person responsible for the dupes for this - AND ESPECIALLY for not coming clean about it after being caught - but it is hard to view the staff in a positive light after doing nothing about for a week. that is on top of coco's numerous messages about reinvigorating this subsection being ignored.

 

if he leaves this site, we are all worse off for it. do you want people to actually write fiction on this site? this is not how you treat the few people who do in the corner you have ordained them the privilege of doing so, to the fraction of attention as anywhere else.

Edited March 13 by slimeball supreme

[Spider-Vice]

25 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

I approached a moderator to take action on a popular user who I discovered to be misleading our community with a multiple account. He has used this multiple account to praise his own topics and undermine others. He has literally used this account to carry out conversations with himself. He has finessed a fanfiction around concern for his whereabouts while being among us all along – something that appalls me.

Because we are simply not temporarily banning someone over one of the most innocent uses of duplicate accounts this forum has ever seen, considering we see all kinds of offensive crap every day. You will have to deal with this, we make the decisions, we don't just do things willy-nilly just because you think it's "unfair". They can no longer use those accounts to do the things you reported, and they have been warned about it on their main account, if it happens again then yes of course, more drastic action will be taken.

 

Based on previous threads, you are literally threatening to leave because we aren't doing what you want us to do - how can we take this seriously? There's been communication with other staff about this but you're coming here with these thesis-level essays with completely wrong interpretations of the situation - which probably means there's nothing we can do or say that'll help your cause anyway.

 

We are not banning them. If THAT is what makes you want to leave, then it's an absolute shame and shall I add quite ridiculous but oh well.

 

29 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

The hardest part of this was actually deciding who to raise the issue with.

There are no staff who actively interact with concept creators. There are no staff who engage with concept threads to encourage them or anticipate issues before they arise. There are no staff involved in the promotion of concept threads.  And this has been the case for years.

Any staff member works, you don't need dedicated staff members who deal with every niche community on the forums. We have chats, we discuss things, message anyone. We can't promote every single piece of content that is on these forums, if your only concern is promotion of concept threads... I'm sorry but we aren't just Concept Forums. And your threads do get a fair bit of attention in the GTA Series section which is visited enough.

 

31 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

I’m not actually invested in what happens to this person now. I have not made this thread to discuss them. He has been irrelevant to me since I found out what he has been doing.

 

30 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

The response has been clear:

What this person has done affects you and your community - but it doesn't affect us and ours, so we aren’t going to act.

I thought you didn't care about them anymore and that this post wasn't gonna be about that? It really looks like you're just typing this out of spite of us not doing what you want us to do. And we won't, we won't ban them over this singular incident, sorry. If they're taking the piss out of it privately, it's privately. If they start getting aggressively publicly, again, we will act.

 

35 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

Literally: “Your friends have missed you and they care about you – but what you’ve done is wrong. Dry out, come back in a few months, and don’t be a c*nt.”

No. The guy was using duplicate accounts to talk to himself and praise his own work, not trolling the forums offensively, spamming, or doing many other horrid things we see more often. This is the mildest case of dupe accounts I've seen in ages, plus they do contribute to the forums in the concept areas - a warning suffices for now. We aren't teachers.

 

32 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

so his main account can’t be held accountable.

He is though. Or do you not realise a "verbal warning" means a full entry on his warn log and not just a PM saying "pls stop"? If that's what you're thinking then you're very wrong, it's registered on his account for every high-level staff member to see.

It's up to you what you want to do, but we can't possibly promote everything, have moderators to police every niche community, or do what you ask just because you want us to. We're staff, we know how we enforce the rules.

 

This is honestly some really low-grade drama for very little reason.

[Datalvarezguy]

You see Tyla, that would imply GTAF has staff that actually cares about GTA. I'd say what they really believe in but I can already see some people's fingers hovering over the banhammer. Sorry to hear sh*t's gone this bad. If you ever wanna at least chat in private, give me, or any other of the concept creators a ring.

You'd think a forum supposedly dedicated to the fanbase and fan projects of GTA would give a remote f*ck about the fanbase and fan projects.

[Spider-Vice]

6 minutes ago, Datalvarezguy said:

that would imply GTAF has staff that actually cares about GTA.

So caring about GTA means only caring about your concepts? Concept threads are great and the community for those is good, but this argument makes no damn sense considering people come here to discuss GTA, some moderators/admins like me still actively play the games, moderate the sections and participate in them. This is GTAForums, people come here to talk about GTA - whether that's Online, VI or the previous games. Those sections are doing just fine and well moderated, just because you feel your concept community isn't being taken care of, it doesn't mean "staff doesn't care about GTA" - what is that parallel?

We care about GTA alright, considering the most active parts of the forum are the main game sections, you just choose to not participate in them. And that's fine, but don't come with nonsense like this.

 

6 minutes ago, Datalvarezguy said:

but I can already see some people's fingers hovering over the banhammer.

Sorry to disappoint. Considering some of these posts seem fuelled by misconceptions about staff, I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply. This is all childish, especially considering the reaction I got to my post was already a "cringe". Not sure there's room for constructive discussion here but go off.

[slimeball supreme]

ive seen people get banned for a lot less than stuff like this. a temp is nothing. the haughty condescension and blatant insults to a frequent and valuable contributor to the forum are disgusting. is that the best you can resort to? you can't talk to someone like a human being? you have to denigrate both him and others and try to catch them out on petty "contradictions" (none of which are present or apply) like this is a gotcha game. the patronizing passive aggression is uncalled for and juvenile

Edited March 13 by slimeball supreme

[wise_man]

Oh yeah, it's completely innocent when a guy is making six accounts to show how good he is and how bad others are. When he have influenced people to only acknowledge his works, and to con everyone into believing that other works of arts here are sh*t compared to his.

 

Neither he nor his "disguises" have ever replied on my concept, which is about how criminals using confidence trick in modern-day, ironic.

[kobeni]

Ive seen low before, but man this really is a new low

 

Theyre really just gonna kill off an era just like that huh

Edited March 13 by kobeni

[Jason]

2 hours ago, slimeball supreme said:

ive seen people get banned for a lot less than stuff like this. a temp is nothing.

 

Examples?

 

I don't really know the ins and outs of this particular case, but I do know that the average forum user vastly over estimates how often we ban people. We very rarely ban for first offense (exceptions are severe rule breaks, racism, etc, things like that), multiple account users have long been given the benefit of the doubt and told to pick one account and stick to it. Further use of multiple accounts would then trigger a ban. This has been standard since I became a mod a few years ago, and I imagine was standard long before that.

 

Hell, we as staff have long engaged in heated discussions, been named called directly, accused of taking bribes or shilling (see above lol), and not banned the people involved.

 

When we do finally ban, again outside of severe rule breaks, it usually takes the users history into account. When we have been criticised for bans in the past it's virtually always by users who lack most or all of the knowledge around the users history.

 

Reading comments here I do understand the frustrations by the concept community here, but as far as I can tell it's been handled in a pretty standard way by the staff directly involved.

[The Coconut Kid]

Spider,

 

You’ve responded to this post like you’ve skipped over every part where I have made polite suggestions what can be done better and decided how can I make this worse?

 

This is actually the first time I’ve had an interaction with you. I am glad it will be our last. I am really hoping a staff member who won’t interpret this as a personal attack will step in with a more measured response on behalf of the forum to the concerns I’ve raised.

 

I’m really lost with what you’ve tried to achieve here. How have you taken it upon yourself to claim offense on the behalf of staff? I have thanked staff for their time every step of the way. They’ve recognised they can’t take the action I’ve hoped for and I’ve escalated it to your courthouse. This is where we are supposed to appeal – so I have.

 

No staff have bothered to follow up and I feel very let down. This is why I have decided to leave your forum and this is where I want you to do better for others in future. I feel justified in my decision knowing you’ve taken more time to defend the person who has caused the offense than to actually address the concerns I have raised. And I’m glad you’re a fan of his contributions. He will be happy to have one that isn’t himself.

 

2 hours ago, Spider-Vice said:

You will have to deal with this, we make the decisions, we don't just do things willy-nilly just because you think it's "unfair". They can no longer use those accounts to do the things you reported, and they have been warned about it on their main account, if it happens again then yes of course, more drastic action will be taken.

I have been dealing with this. And it could have been quite easily resolved. There has been no public drama involved in this situation and I have done the best I can to keep it to a minimum. No one has lowered themselves to an outburst over this until your reply - and I have so much respect for them for doing so.

 

You could’ve responded a week ago with, “Case closed. Get over it. f*ck off!” I wouldn't have minded. You would have achieved something close to a resolution and we could’ve all gone our separate ways. Instead there has been zero follow up. Nothing. I didn’t even know the multiple accounts were banned until he told us himself. This is what I’ve felt I need to bring to attention.

 

This process has disappointed me enough to leave – and your response in this thread hardly encourages people to raise issues with you.

 

2 hours ago, Spider-Vice said:

Any staff member works, you don't need dedicated staff members who deal with every niche community on the forums. We have chats, we discuss things, message anyone. We can't promote every single piece of content that is on these forums, if your only concern is promotion of concept threads... I'm sorry but we aren't just Concept Forums. And your threads do get a fair bit of attention in the GTA Series section which is visited enough.

And this is something you need to work on, Spider - you don't try to engage with anyone at all. You’ve dismissed all of the concerns I’ve raised throughout this outright. You've given me 'we know best!' and you've shut down any further discussion that could've been had. All of this could've been avoided if you checked in enough - or perhaps we had someone we knew we could reach. It is extremely frustrating you've dismissed this without further thought.

 

I've given you suggestions how you can engage with a very receptive community which wants to have more to do with staff and the sum of your post is "nah, we're not gonna do that - and your concerns aren't even valid."

 

Do better.

 

Edit:

 

And I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about my wording and the length of my posts. I don't really see how this is relevant in a situation that requires proof and context to be provided. Maybe slap a word limit on posts here if that's easier for you.

Edited March 13 by The Coconut Kid
Let my last words be that my spelling is sh*t.

[slimeball supreme]

22 minutes ago, Jason said:

Examples?

honestly? it's irrelevant. i think a verbal warning or a short temp is completely fair. i think a lot of this would've been forgiven if the man came clean to what he did, and didn't mislead us all into believing he had anything but bad intentions. what is relevant is the complete lack of communication on the part of this site. the courthouse post was ignored. direct messages were ignored. we had no idea whether the duplicate accounts were even banned in the first place - it's not like you guys have the busted stars. and, more than anything else, i think everyone should incensed by the cavalier arrogance displayed by spider-vice in his post.

 

instead of calmly addressing the punishment like you more or less have, he derided someone for no good reason. it is appalling and does not encourage a good relationship between staff and users. there is now an implicit hostility to even thinking of criticizing a decision. seemingly, spidervice does not think we are worthy of being upset. this process has been in the works for almost a month now and we've all kept quiet waiting for word to get back to coco. instead, we get a wall of silence, and smug dismissal by a chief administrator. he does not have the divine right of kings. it is unacceptable to make a pithy mockery of a genuine issue: in the same breath we've been functionally called niche and irrelevant, been told to be happy with the lot we are given, and all of us have been called ridiculous and spiteful for being upset. quite frankly, he should apologize.

 

the regulars will probably not regard the offender or his work well in any sense. if he can't be temped for this, maybe we'll settle for ignoring him and letting this person rule his potemkin village of duplicate accounts we didnt even know were banned until now. however, none of us will be satisfied or trust staff after suggestions or complaints are ignored or taken as personal affronts

Edited March 13 by slimeball supreme

[Akaviri]

Personally I would have given him a temporary ban, but what is stopping him from making even more accounts? If you want to hurt this man with an eye for an eye, just lock his concept threads. The insecurity and narcisissm that is at the root of this is to protect the works he has produced. With them condemned to fade away forever, he will not he able to do this again.

 

Regardless, at least the perp has been exposed for what he is. It's rather sad and pathetic. I have had mad respect for the guy and would have considered moving on past this, but the whole thing has left a bad taste in our mouth. Like others said, even just coming clean and offering a public apology would have been acceptable to most of us. I hope all this feedback may sway the motion further on this.

[Jason]

30 minutes ago, slimeball supreme said:

honestly? it's irrelevant. 

 

Not irrelevant at all when you're claiming something that isn't true. If you want to stand by it, give examples, otherwise don't try and claim things that you aren't willing to back up. I understand the frustration and that can lead to saying things like that, but they (and other comments here) don't help the overall situation.

 

30 minutes ago, slimeball supreme said:

what is relevant is the complete lack of communication on the part of this site. the courthouse post was ignored. direct messages were ignored. we had no idea whether the duplicate accounts were even banned in the first place - it's not like you guys have the busted stars. and, more than anything else,

 

Generally speaking we don't typically hand out details regarding bans or punishments, they are between staff and the user in question, not anyone else. There are odd comments here and there sometimes, say if someone is trolling up a thread we may say they're dealt with, but that's virtually always done to move a threads discussion on and away from the trolls. In most situations though it's not a given. We've handled smaller and much, much larger situations the same. You are not privy to conversations we've had with users, and it's up to them to them if they want to say they were banned or otherwise punished. This is why the courthouse is private, for example

 

Regarding staff communication with the people here, it's not always quick and often the replies can be slow. The two main reasons for that are 1) we all don't have as much free time as we used to and as a result may not see things like messages immediately 2) when staff are made aware of a situation it is typically passed on to other members of staff for discussion, which is what happened here. Responses can then take a while as staff discuss internally how to handle it. And again, you are not privy to the conversations we have with the people involved in the situation. This is not to say communication can't ever be improved, by the way, it always can be, but there's pretty standard things here that people seem to be mistaken on.

 

I've not been involved in this particular situation my self but reading the jist of it, and the comments here, it feels to me that there was preset expectation for how the concept community wanted this to be handled. When it was handled differently - and again, from what I've seen it was handled in a pretty standard way in regards of punishments - people got upset and frustrated. That's not really on the staff.

 

As for things getting heated between staff and users... It, as this thread shows, goes both ways. Everyone needs to take a step back and think with cooler heads for a bit.

 

6 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

Personally I would have given him a temporary ban, but what is stopping him from making even more accounts?

 

He'd be banned.

 

We have a reputation for being ban happy and that's really completely unfounded, at least these days. Can't speak for the staff of old but since I've been staff we're pretty lax and forgiving, preferring to keep the community together as much as possible. Severe rule breaks or a  consistent history of rule breaking is what results in bans.

 

The guy's been caught in a pretty embarrassing situation, it's a wee bit pathetic for sure, but he's the one who owes the concept community an apology first and foremost - and we as staff can't force him to do that.

 

 

[slimeball supreme]

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

Not irrelevant at all when you're claiming something that isn't true. If you want to stand by it, give examples, otherwise don't try and claim things that you aren't willing to back up. I understand the frustration and that can lead to saying things like that, but they (and other comments here) don't help the overall situation.

sure, that's fair, but i think that applies equally to what's been said in spider-vice's initial reply. i could tell you anecdotes or give you a personal history of my own ban log that's been warped by time or personal bias, but that doesn't add anything to the conversation. ill spare you and anyone else here petty, misremembered stories. aside from a simple "ive seen people temp banned for much less" (which is what i meant, not permabanned), i do stand by everything i've said. everything.

 

the issue is not necessarily that the ban was lenient, which you've explained. it's now just general conduct. sure, we can step back, but i think everyone has the right to be upset over a relatively cordial reply being belittled and mocked by someone in a position of power.

 

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

This is why the courthouse is private, for example

none of us needed to see the courthouse post coco made. in fact, nobody has. if the issue is as simple and benign as spider-vice made it out to be, it shouldn't be a problem to reply after deliberations are made. especially within a week. like coco said, even a prompt affirmation of "sorry it's not that big a deal" would have sufficed. instead we've had to make this thread to know how anything has went.

 

coco and the rest of us did not ask to see private conversations, or to have an intricate look into the process of how staff make content moderation decisions. we only wanted a simple yes or no that was not provided.

 

we didnt expect a specific outcome. what we expected was any word on what would happen, period. it took him mocking you guys in his thread and keeping the facade up for us to even know anything had happened.

 

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

As for things getting heated between staff and users... It, as this thread shows, goes both ways. Everyone needs to take a step back and think with cooler heads for a bit.

personally, nothing i have said is unacceptable. i have not lost my cool and have been cordial. i still think what spidervice said was unacceptable, and i am allowed to do so. if anything was elevated, it was started by the woefully poor response.

 

i hope that coco goes back on his word and continues to contribute to this website. though i understand after the disrespect shown by your fellow staff member that i would not by any means want to do so in his shoes. only for the sake of the people who contribute and value his contributions - who have now been alienated.

 

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

The guy's been caught in a pretty embarrassing situation, it's a wee bit pathetic for sure, but he's the one who owes the concept community an apology first and foremost - and we as staff can't force him to do that.

if there's one thing i can agree without hesitation on, it's this. you and the staff certainly cannot force someone to apologize, or feel remorse for their actions. we'll see if we even get that

Edited March 13 by slimeball supreme

[universetwisters]

So does this mean having alt accounts isn’t a bannable offense anymore? 

[Jason]

6 minutes ago, slimeball supreme said:

none of us needed to see the courthouse post coco made. in fact, nobody has. if the issue is as simple and benign as spider-vice made it out to be, it shouldn't be a problem to reply after deliberations are made. especially within a week. like coco said, even a prompt affirmation of "sorry it's not that big a deal" would have sufficed. instead we've had to make this thread to know how anything has went.

 

The court house being private was an example of me not talking waffle when I said forum users aren't privy to conversations between staff and other users.

 

Again, I don't know the full story of this situation beyond the rule breaking, punishments and general behavior shown in this thread, but reading this thread I have seen multiple posts lamenting the lack of information around another users punishments. This isn't information you have any right to, at least from staff.

 

Though, reading the court house thread now, there were clear and very specific expectations laid out from non-staff members about how they wanted the situation to be handled, with a further statement that they (and the concept community) would be very disappointed if the matter is not handled how they want - ie, an ultimatum. That's a pretty hostile start to something, before the wider staff even got involved.

 

While I am not excusing any potential sour behavior from anyone, including staff, when there's misunderstandings over things people get frustrated. When people get frustrated they say things they wouldn't normally say, and then there's reactions to that from others.

 

The whole situation has been massively blown out of proportion if you ask me. The guy who with the accounts is the numpty, he's been outed, shamed, and told to cut it out from staff. If he continues he'll be banned.

 

 

[The Coconut Kid]

24 minutes ago, Jason said:

As for things getting heated between staff and users... It, as this thread shows, goes both ways. Everyone needs to take a step back and think with cooler heads for a bit.

Jason, I appreciate how considerate your replies have been, but no part of this response has a place in a thread literally asking staff to listen to people when they ask for support. I have asked for staff to take a stance on unacceptable behaviour and provide a better environment for a community I have loved. An admin has decided to strike up a fighting pose and stick the boot in.

 

All we're really asking for here is better. That ain't it.

[slimeball supreme]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Again, I don't know the full story of this situation beyond the rule breaking, punishments and general behavior shown in this thread, but reading this thread I have seen multiple posts lamenting the lack of information around another users punishments. This isn't information you have any right to, at least from staff.

there used to be busted stars on this site for if someone was banned. wanting to know if a malignant presence is gone is really not a big ask - for all i knew phil mccrevis was wandering around writing nonsense on random posts about carlos leather and batman. it is pretty understandable for anyone to be disappointed if said bad actor is not reprimanded. there are no ledbys or staff members active in the concept community who can tend to this in a timely fashion or confirm suspicions. if i were to confront him publicly prior to this report, i may have been the one on the end of a verbal warning for off topic posting

 

just like you cant make someone apologize, we cant make someone stop being a nuisance. especially if nobody else is privvy. we cant check someones IP. we certainly cant give a verbal warning, or make someone stop. thats staff's job

 

like coco has said, you personally have been patient and respectful. i respect that and appreciate your candor. but at the same time, i would appreciate if that were the norm, and i didnt have to expect the possibility id get anything less than that for a good-intentioned issue

[Spider-Vice]

42 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

So does this mean having alt accounts isn’t a bannable offense anymore? 

That's not what's being said here and I invite you to re-read Jason's posts. Someone using alt accounts to do something like pat themselves in the back, talk to themselves, comment on their own stuff etc. is not quite the same thing as someone using alt accounts to be actively harmful to members, post spam, porn, or other things.

 

That's the point that's trying to be made here.

 

29 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

An admin has decided to strike up a fighting pose and stick the boot in.

It's frankly difficult not to do that when yourselves have struck a fighting pose over this situation - demanding action that you think is correct when we know what we're doing, but I digress on this specific issue as I personally think it's being dramatised for no reason.

[universetwisters]

2 minutes ago, Spider-Vice said:

That's not what's being said here and I invite you to re-read Jason's posts. Someone using alt accounts to do something like pat themselves in the back, talk to themselves, comment on their own stuff etc. is not quite the same thing as someone using alt accounts to be actively harmful to members, post spam, porn, or other things.

In all fairness tho, I do agree with slimeball’s assessment that, if you do have alt account just to jack yourself off and sway influence towards your main, it’s still pretty detrimental. Obviously not to the extent of the example you bring up, but it’s still such a weird double standard of having accounts just to boost your own posts and influence.

[Spider-Vice]

Hence, they were warned about it. A verbal warning isn't just a slap in the wrist via PM, it's an actual entry in your warn log. If they do more of that then they will be penalised more harshly, as already stated.

[universetwisters]

1 minute ago, Spider-Vice said:

Hence, they were warned about it. A verbal warning isn't just a slap in the wrist via PM, it's an actual entry in your warn log. If they do more of that then they will be penalised more harshly, as already stated.

I suppose, but either way its still a sh*tty thing for him to do even if it’s not malicious. The alts are all banned tho, right? 
 

 

 

[Spider-Vice]

4 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

The alts are all banned tho, right? 

Yes... Obviously. From the very first moment they were found by a staff member and the OG account warned about it.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, The Coconut Kid said:

Jason, I appreciate how considerate your replies have been, but no part of this response has a place in a thread literally asking staff to listen to people when they ask for support. I have asked for staff to take a stance on unacceptable behaviour and provide a better environment for a community I have loved. An admin has decided to strike up a fighting pose and stick the boot in.

 

I'm not excusing the strong response from another member of staff, but what I am saying is that responses like that - from both sides - are what happens when misunderstandings happen and frustrations flare up.

 

As has been said, your court house topic comes out swinging from a staff point of view, this sours the discussion around the topic from the get go and puts staff in a position where unless we make an exception for how we handle situations like this, your community (and you make note that you represent your community) will be upset. That's you going on the offensive, and naturally that can provoke a frustrated response. We're all human, we all have the ability to get frustrated by stuff and have moments where we air that.

 

Point is, if you want to victimise Spider for any potential frustrations he's had, you also need to look at what caused those frustrations, and that was a very provocative post from you in the court house.

 

To be completely blunt, you're not innocent and you have played a direct part in this blowing up the way it has. That's not excusing others of adding more fuel to the fire, but stuff like this goes both ways. The situation can't be resolved if one side wants an apology from the other while not taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

Honestly, my personal take is that it's just got a wee bit out of hand, no one here in this thread is a villain and this never needed to become as big a situation as it has. So if people can't accept their part and shake hands and move on, then just let bygones be bygones and don't let one persons actions (referring to the guy with multiple accounts here) spoil a good thing.

 

 

[Cebra]

5 hours ago, Spider-Vice said:

It's frankly difficult not to do that when yourselves have struck a fighting pose over this situation - demanding action that you think is correct when we know what we're doing, but I digress on this specific issue as I personally think it's being dramatised for no reason.

I imagine you can tell how it comes across that you came out of the gates swinging and picking apart Coco's entire argument while completely ignoring the fundamental issues presented re: communication and fostering an actual sense of community on this forum. The actual conduct of the user in question is separate from all the other concerns raised in this topic - how staff are often unreachable, uncaring, happy to leave people on read for over a year instead of even vaguely addressing concerns. The Courthouse post has stagnated for over a week: multiple people have now told you that, as a token of acknowledgement to any of us affected by this, even the briefest of replies would've sufficed - even "we're handling it" or a simple "we stand by our decision". It seems you're implying the staff chose to ignore it because a "thesis-level" post was too dense to parse? I think it needs to be stressed that every effort was taken so that this whole thing could stay private and be resolved privately to avoid unnecessary drama, and the entire community was beholden to that until your first reply in this thread. In a way it has actually been the total opposite of "dramatised for no reason"; everyone has actually kept their mouths shut entirely, and every avenue Coco has taken to address their concerns with a staff member in private has been utterly ignored.

 

The suggestions in the OP are much broader than anything related to this specific member's conduct.

 

Quote

There are no staff who actively interact with concept creators. There are no staff who engage with concept threads to encourage them or anticipate issues before they arise. There are no staff involved in the promotion of concept threads.  And this has been the case for years.

This is true. Everyone involved in this thread is a concept creator in some form or another - I don't understand why you are so dismissive of a community whose posts constitute half the front page of Series right now. You've opted to look us all right in the face and rather than consider even for a second that yes, there have been some communication issues, and yes, there is valid constructive critique here, you've chosen to go "actually, every single one of your concerns is not valid. We're the staff. We know better than you". I don't need to explain to you that not only is this incredibly condescending but also entirely unhelpful to addressing the issues you've been presented with. It feels like the only reason you're gracing us with your presence at all is because this makes the forum look dysfunctional. There is a legitimate beef here: for several years concepts have been extricated from the rest of the forum awards - the important ones like "best sh*tposter" - until one of us petitioned a moderator to remember we exist. Some of our topics have stagnated for months at a time awaiting help from a mod or ledby to reorganize them despite numerous requests to do so. Some staff have been helpful to me in the past over concept concerns: GTAKid667, Raavi, RedDagger. I wish it was the rule rather than the exception!

 

It would be nice if you could just acknowledge: is it fair for several members of the staff to have left him on read for over a year despite, in some cases, repeated nudges as reminders and said staff regularly posting in VI speculation threads? Every reply you've made in this thread is dripping in condescension - we have ultimate crown authority, and you deign not question our process nor or resolutions. Nobody is trying to be unreasonable, even if I think the concern is widely shared in the community that this whole fiasco was the catalyst for people to come forward with greater concerns because of what it portends. This one person was associated with six sockpuppets: multiply that by every Series regular who replied in this thread, you're at 48 alt accounts - this is a completely reasonable hypothetical because using alts to prop up our threads has now been explicitly sanctioned by staff as long as we don't use said accounts to antagonize people (directly, at least: passively calling other concepts "absolute garbage" seems to be fine). I think we all understand that punishment should be proportionate to the amount of harm caused to the forum, yes, but is this really a tenable position? Sure, he was warned. But he continued to try and gaslight us into believing they were different accounts just yesterday. I don't think there's any indication of real redress, especially since those other 4 accounts floating around have (seemingly) not been banned.

 

I don't understand why there's such reluctance to hear our concerns at all. All we want is some acknowledgement from staff that we exist and that the concerns we have are legitimate. Is it too much to ask? You coming out of nowhere speaking to a member who has been here for sixteen years - only a few months less than you - with the fury of a God who's forgotten the sun exists is very much uncalled for and a terrible reflection on how much this forum values members who have stuck around for years to contribute. As someone who desperately wants to see this place thriving again, I want to believe that there's plenty to do and plenty of work behind the scenes that we don't see. But when one of the only times we see staff is when they come out to berate us, it's hard to be inspired by that

Edited March 13 by Cebra

[Jason]

I was unaware of the contents of the court house thread when I first posted in this thread earlier today but after having read it some time later, it is becoming more and more clear that, among the concept community, there is a major lack of knowledge on what is said in that court house thread. We're being criticised for communication when, it seems, key information is being witheld from the concept community, or people are turning a blind eye to it. Regardless of the why, it is now starting to feel hypocritical.

 

In a nutshell, we were told directly about how we, staff, should resolve the situation. As in, we were given specific demands, and if we didn't meet those demands the concept community would be very disappointed.

 

That's an ultimatum. Ultimatums are inherently hostile and make the entire situation toxic from the get go. That is the hand that we, staff, were dealt by the concept community, of who Coconut has said he was representing. The consequence of this is that unless we made an exception to how we handled situations like this, we would face a backlash. We handled it in a manner that is in line with how we've handled many duplicate accounts... and we got a backlash.

 

At this point the situation is starting to feel like an inner-community drama that has little to do with staff or the wider forum. Basically, a user has been a dumbdumb and his own community turned on him. That community then informed staff, demanding that he be banned. When staff handled the issue in manner that is perfectly inline with how we typically handle duplicate accounts, but not in a manner that pleased the concept community, tantrums ensued.

 

Or to put it another way, if we banned him and said absolutely nothing, I highly doubt anyone would have batted an eyelid. 

[Raavi]

Couple of points.

 

It has been a longstanding practice on this forum that any staff decision and/or enforcement action concerning an individual user is between staff and that individual user. Enforcement decisions are based on a variety of factors that regular users are not privy to and really are not concerned with. 

 

The content of exchanges between members with pending enforcement action ranges from the mundane to the incredibly personal. Privacy of you and your data is among our primary concerns, so we will not disclose more information than absolutely necessary when it concerns enforcement actions and the reasoning and details thereof.

 

We get a large volume of messages, questions and support requests on a daily basis and respond to them as quickly as is practicable. We are all volunteers and most of us have full-time jobs among numerous other responsibilities, despite this staff members work for you to keep this community a welcoming and accessible environment for fans of the Grand Theft Auto series. Staff members like Spider next to their community role also even dedicating his time to the backend of the forum and everything involved with making sure everything runs smoothly.

 

Staff are members of the community, but it is not the role of staff to artificially enforce “community” top down. Community sprouts from our many daily active users and their creative, insightful, entertaining and at times genuinely amazing efforts and contributions. You make the community, you are the community.

 

Your feedback is always welcome and member suggestions, ideas and concerns are regularly discussed and where appropriate action is taken.

 

 

[The Coconut Kid]

Jason, staff weren't told to do anything.

 

Where is the demand in the following sentence?

 

On 3/8/2023 at 5:31 PM, The Coconut Kid said:

I am coming to you with a request

This is hardly demanding, is it?

  

On 3/8/2023 at 5:31 PM, The Coconut Kid said:

I am asking for:

Asking, not telling.

 

On 3/8/2023 at 5:31 PM, The Coconut Kid said:

Please take this into account.

Please.

  

On 3/8/2023 at 5:31 PM, The Coconut Kid said:

It will be extremely disappointing to us all if these concerns are not appropriately addressed.

And it has been. It has been shocking to receive verbal abuse and hostility from staff - especially when none of it has been initiated by regular users.

 

2 hours ago, Jason said:

In a nutshell, we were told directly about how we, staff, should resolve the situation. As in, we were given specific demands, and if we didn't meet those demands the concept community would be very disappointed.

You were asked - politely and respectfully - how it could be better resolved. I needed staff to back us up with action I felt was necessary- and I provided the proof and context necessary for staff to hopefully reconsider doing so. I have been told I have been excessive and that I'm instigating drama. This is what my concerns have been reduced to when responded to by staff. You can understand why people would be disappointed.

 

I have been straight up with you right down the line. I struggle to see how staff could've contained themselves for a week if they felt so strongly about my tone of asking.

 

And yes, there was specific action I needed to happen here. It wasn't demanded - it was asked for and ignored. This wasn't me threatening to drown a bag full of a kittens if I don't get my way. This was a detailed and thorough report. And it was ignored.

 

I have indicated in the courthouse that I would likely move on because of the upset caused. This wasn't a threat - this was where I was at. I have asked that you understand how difficult this has been. I've come up against a wall of silence from staff privately and I have decided to move on. I have left you genuine and sincere thoughts here how things could be done better and received verbal abuse. It has turned into a character assassination where everything has been addressed except the point.

 

And for clarity:

 

2 hours ago, Jason said:

it is becoming more and more clear that, among the concept community, there is a major lack of knowledge on what is said in that court house thread. We're being criticised for communication when, it seems, key information is being witheld from the concept community, or people are turning a blind eye to it. Regardless of the why, it is now starting to feel hypocritical.

 

They've actually been informed every step of the way that I have been talking to staff and I stand by how I have gone about this. I have so much respect for the concept community I am leaving behind and I want that on record.

 

I hope more is done to look after them. That is the purpose of this post and it saddens me that the staff responses that have followed completely miss this.

[Jason]

15 minutes ago, The Coconut Kid said:

Jason, staff weren't told to do anything.

 

Then why tell us how to handle it? Why lay down expectations? You asked nicely, that's appreciative, but merely telling us how you want something to be handled and then later saying the community would be upset if it wasn't handled that way isn't subtle, it's very, very heavy handed, and puts staff on the back foot immediately. If you're completely oblivious to that, that's a you problem, but your words have consequences and putting "please" in front of them doesn't suddenly absolve you of any blame or responsibility.

 

Further, we've had multiple people come here, people who you supposedly spoke on behalf of, lamenting the fact he wasn't banned, adding more evidence to the pile that there was a preset expectations of him being banned. Also, this issue is still on-going and has spread into other areas of the forum with name dropping and name calling towards this individual, but this issue in the eyes of staff is resolved, and people have, begrudgingly in some cases, supposedly accepted that. So why is the issue flaring up in other parts of the forum? For us, the situation with the user in question is finished unless he further breaks the rules, so further name calling or name dropping in other parts of the forum is now verging on harassment. You, and I imagine the community you speak of, have read the rules recently, so you know that's against the rules.

 

Your arguments don't get over the first hurdle in virtually all cases when discussed in context with what was said in the court house thread and the wider actions of the community you're representing.

 

You ask us to look after the concept community more, but from where I'm sitting, to be blunt, you spoke on behalf of a community, and you spoke poorly on their behalf. You should heed your own words your self.

[Cebra]

17 minutes ago, Jason said:

Also, this issue is still on-going and has spread into other areas of the forum with name dropping and name calling towards this individual, but this issue in the eyes of staff is resolved, and people have, begrudgingly in some cases, supposedly accepted that. So why is the issue flaring up in other parts of the forum? For us, the situation with the user in question is finished unless he further breaks the rules, so further name calling or name dropping in other parts of the forum is now verging on harassment. You, and I imagine the community you speak of, have read the rules recently, so you know that's against the rules.

Since it seems you and Spider Vice have absolutely no intention of addressing any of the points I raised in good faith, this will be the last thing I say on this topic: what I've just quoted is so absurd I can't believe you actually posted it. One refrain I have heard multiple times speaking directly with mods on this topic is that, although he will not be banned for his conduct, it is more than fair that he is tried in the court of public opinion. Our community operates on an honor system and it has been breached. So no, there is no name calling; I am legitimately confounded by why you just said that, since we both know it isn't true - and nobody is going to stand for you maligning the community on top of this. It is not against the rules to mention another user's name and nobody has tagged him. You know that. I won't pretend to understand why you think the best course of action at this point is to start lying when you have been relatively level-headed, but this is so distant from the realm of harassment it is incredible to me that you'd even say it other than in order to vaguely threaten us into bending the knee. We will move on as a community, and if the only justice meted out is that he becomes a pariah then so be it. Come on now

Edited March 14 by Cebra