Concept Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City 1978 [Remastered Edition]

[Slezzy]

I really do enjoy those new stories and reading them in my free times, it's a dream DLC to me very great beautiful art of work. Hope to see some main story missions like the other ones like "Family Ties" and "The Russian Roulette" for example were such a great one. 

[Phil McCrevis]

3 hours ago, Akaviri said:

Yeah I have to work on the mobile browser compatibility. I reduced the size of the dividers above the borough headers. I think they were too long and causing the issues. Let me know how it looks now. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Could you be more specific as far as the descriptions not matching up? It could be a tabling issue, but I see nothing wrong on my end. I'm using a 28" monitor. I am working on making new headers for the boroughs, Coconut Kid was able to provide me details on the font style used for the original graphics. I will implement them soon throughout the thread.

 

Its like really up and down. More than likely a tabling issue but some of the pictures are also different sizes and some stuff is just really strange like the word from in Plumbers Skyway being on two different lines and the tracklists on the radio being two different lengths despite having the same amount of tracks on both sides. In my opinion it doesn't look so bad on NO/LC but IF99 and Sound Holland Sounds is a little more off because the two titles are dramatically different length. As I say probably a little bit too much obsessive on my part.

[The Coconut Kid]

I have yet to thank you publicly for the work you've done here and the sheer scale of the new content you've assembled. You are an absolute God!

 

Count me among the ranks who are eager to see what comes next.

[Nefarious Money Man]

Even though this thing has been updated more times than GTA: San Andreas I'm nevertheless still finding things that just keep pulling me in.

 

I suppose the biggest change right off the bat comes with the prison time right at the very start. Initially I was thinking wouldn’t this experience be better served with a single protagonist, or at least one at a time. I mean the obvious comparison to draw is Mafia II. But then as I read on further I began to think more so in terms of other prison stories in games like A Way Out. My question of course then becomes - would the protagonist get a chance to also meet each other and there be an option to have one guy assist in another's parole or escape?

 

Also pretty cool to have the Oz-like backstories set in '72 to see what led to these guys' arrests. But (somewhat tied to my first question), would these events be related to one another or would they be completely separate. If it's a case of the latter then I probably need to circle back.

 

I mean, all throughout reading this it kind of struck me as a very personal experience. Like not too much is specific for these guys and the choice of character doesn't very much weigh too heavily on how the game is actually played. It's kind of just like they're a vessel at times for a uniform gameplay experience. So I was wondering how much this factored in to the creation process and whether you had been thinking about this as kind of pick your player type of situation from the start?

[Akaviri]

5 hours ago, The Notorious MOB said:

Even though this thing has been updated more times than GTA: San Andreas I'm nevertheless still finding things that just keep pulling me in.

 

I suppose the biggest change right off the bat comes with the prison time right at the very start. Initially I was thinking wouldn’t this experience be better served with a single protagonist, or at least one at a time. I mean the obvious comparison to draw is Mafia II. But then as I read on further I began to think more so in terms of other prison stories in games like A Way Out. My question of course then becomes - would the protagonist get a chance to also meet each other and there be an option to have one guy assist in another's parole or escape?

 

Also pretty cool to have the Oz-like backstories set in '72 to see what led to these guys' arrests. But (somewhat tied to my first question), would these events be related to one another or would they be completely separate. If it's a case of the latter then I probably need to circle back.

First off, welcome back! Your return is like landing the last stone into the Infinity gauntlet. The forum is complete yet again.

 

Great questions. To answer the first one, yes and no. The protagonists will generally not have a direct relationship with one another, but they will brush contact and be aware of each other's existence. I would say their acquaintances are mission-specific, very similar to the trinity bond between Niko, Johnny, and Luis. They technically meet, but they aren't going on dates with each other like in GTA V. Likewise, their story events will have great impact on each others. All episodes are meant to be played separately, but there will be crossover moments and joint mission ventures such as the diamond deal.

 

I have thought about how the active character-switching would work for this. The main draw of running into the other protagonists on the street is to try to fight them (and we all know how that goes down). Aside from that it never added much to my GTA V experience. I also wasn't a fan of returning to my character after a few minutes to find them stranded in the desert wearing a dress. For me the improvement was bypassing the need to save and sit through loading screens between characters. In my opinion, the character switching works best during missions or similar situations of value. I could see to controlled interactions between the protagonists outside of missions, but I'll have to think out the details. Now that you've asked about it, I should work on putting in a section dedicated entirely to this gameplay feature.

 

5 hours ago, The Notorious MOB said:

I mean, all throughout reading this it kind of struck me as a very personal experience. Like not too much is specific for these guys and the choice of character doesn't very much weigh too heavily on how the game is actually played. It's kind of just like they're a vessel at times for a uniform gameplay experience. So I was wondering how much this factored in to the creation process and whether you had been thinking about this as kind of pick your player type of situation from the start?

This is an interesting take and not far from the truth. I wouldn't call their experiences totally uniform. There are exclusive aspects to each, but most of the game features can be explored through all three. The differences are mostly stylistic and thematic. Overall I have chose to keep things in a rather equivocal state, as a work in progress is always be subject to change. The combined story has been a sprawling endeavor from the ground up, evolving as I add to it. I've provided this inkling until I'm confident in expanding on the synopsis.

 

I appreciate your constructive input!

Edited February 10, 2023 by Akaviri

[LowTierDude]

Had Nonstop Wop playing in the background while I was working out. It was pretty dope .

[E Revere]

I love how intricate this is. My dream GTA. I wish we had the processing power to make games like this.

[Guest]

The more I read the Robbery & Heists section, the more impressive it gets.

 

Based on the leaks, I feel like GTA VI is heading for the same exact direction to this LC78. You have various targets around the city. Instead of locking them to the story, you can rob them anytime you wish with whoever you want. As alluded by the discovered world events, Jason-Lucia may decide whether they want to go with extra crew or not, at day or night, can cash-in the loots on different fence, and there's chance of a score ended-up being a police trap.

 

It's a truly missed opportunity in GTA V. The crew's skill percentages being increased after The Big Score hints the possibility of more heists, and Rockstar once planned for Ocean 11-esque heist in the cancelled SP DLCs. Those two never arrive. Imagine if after Ending C, Lester tells Michael that with all their problems over, they can begin planning more heists across Los Santos. Imagine we can then rob the casino, the Fleeca/Pacific banks, the LS port, or mansions in Rockford Hills, anytime we want with the already established crew members. Imagine the endless replayability that can sustain GTA V's single-player for years while GTA VI is cooking up.

 

I've noticed identical mechanic concept in Third Rail's scores and stickups, the original VI: Vice, and maybe Mob Rules too as mentioned by MOB. We all surely enjoy this concept of free-roam heists, aren't we?

Edited March 5, 2023 by wise_man

[LowTierDude]

4 hours ago, wise_man said:

It's a truly missed opportunity in GTA V. The crew's skill percentages being increased after The Big Score hints the possibility of more heists, and Rockstar once planned for Ocean 11-esque heist in the cancelled SP DLCs. Those two never arrive. Imagine if after Ending C, Lester tells Michael that with all their problems over, they can begin planning more heists across Los Santos. Imagine we can then rob the casino, the Fleeca/Pacific banks, the LS port, or mansions in Rockford Hills, anytime we want with the already established crew members. Imagine the endless replayability that can sustain GTA V's single-player for years while GTA VI is cooking up.

Reading this feels sad dude. Man, GTA V could have been a goated game on par with GTA IV and RDR 2. It's a shame it went down the same path that almost every AAA blockbuster game is going through now.

Edited March 5, 2023 by kobeni

[Akaviri]

5 hours ago, wise_man said:

The more I read the Robbery & Heists section, the more impressive it gets.

 

Based on the leaks, I feel like GTA VI is heading for the same exact direction to this LC78. You have various targets around the city. Instead of locking them to the story, you can rob them anytime you wish with whoever you want. As alluded by the discovered world events, Jason-Lucia may decide whether they want to go with extra crew or not, at day or night, can cash-in the loots on different fence, and there's chance of a score ended-up being a police trap.

 

It's a truly missed opportunity in GTA V. The crew's skill percentages being increased after The Big Score hints the possibility of more heists, and Rockstar once planned for Ocean 11-esque heist in the cancelled SP DLCs. Those two never arrive. Imagine if after Ending C, Lester tells Michael that with all their problems over, they can begin planning more heists across Los Santos. Imagine we can then rob the casino, the Fleeca/Pacific banks, the LS port, or mansions in Rockford Hills, anytime we want with the already established crew members. Imagine the endless replayability that can sustain GTA V's single-player for years while GTA VI is cooking up.

 

I've noticed identical mechanic concept in Third Rail's scores and stickups, the original VI: Vice, and maybe Mob Rules too as mentioned by MOB. We all surely enjoy this concept of free-roam heists, aren't we?

It truly is the dream and the final form of such gameplay experience. Thanks for the nod although as you mention it has been prototyped in other concepts long before this one. Seems it has become the gold standard now. There's always a need for a few story-oriented heists, but having all the variables at stake makes for endless plays.

 

Your explorations of the con were also considered when I was doing the crew section. We have Hackers in V but what is the equivalent in the 70s? Bombers like Derrick McReary, Safe Crackers like Cam Jones, or Hustlers like CJ swiping the combination codes.

 

I haven't been heavy on the trail of GTA VI, but what you have just said about it reassures me quite a bit. If nothing at all I hope they get that right. This time the weapons better sound and feel like in IV. How they could possibly have expected to channel the feeling of the movie Heat with firearms that sound as pathetic as in V?

 

I believe we will also see a weapon holstering system similar to what I've got here, which is something I have grown quite proud of. Namely the ankle holstering of subcompacts and the versatility of weapon slots to compliment the lack of them. It works well to balance customization as well. Another gripe I had with V was there was the lack of incentive to not slap every upgrade on a gun if you could afford it. Taking the lightest, primitive version should have benefits of its own, such as concealment and mobility.

 

On 2/18/2023 at 10:09 PM, E Revere said:

I love how intricate this is. My dream GTA. I wish we had the processing power to make games like this.

Thank you so much, brother. Those words are the peak sentiment for me. This will always be my dream GTA. I play it in my sleep and in my head throughout the day. My doctor says the new medication will protect my save files from being corrupted!

Edited March 5, 2023 by Akaviri

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Akaviri said:

I believe we will also see a weapon holstering system similar to what I've got here, which is something I have grown quite proud of. Namely the ankle holstering of subcompacts and the versatility of weapon slots to compliment the lack of them. It works well to balance customization as well. Another gripe I had with V was there was the lack of incentive to not slap every upgrade on a gun if you could afford it. Taking the lightest, primitive version should have benefits of its own, such as concealment and mobility.

The weapon slots feature is also another favorite concept feature of mine here. Really looking forward to see how it'll be (hopefully) implemented in GTA VI.

 

Hell, your take on this inspired me back to implement the same on L&S: Belt holster for all protagonists, shoulder holster exclusive for Cesar, and thigh holster for Maria when she's wearing a dress. Though you can quickly notice the less complexity. It's aimed more for gameplay/aesthetic diversification across the protagonists, something that's also influenced by Bohemians & Blackjack where Julius and Dante have a single waistband holster, whereas the more militiaristic-background Doug has a dual shoulder.

 

What inspires you to take this unprecedented length on weaponry system? The concept is even level above what I've seen in any video game I know.

 

And I don't like to spoil much more about Brannigan, but since you already know it's a period piece (and my debut on that concept type), do you have some advices when making a period-accurate arsenal and weaponry features?

[Akaviri]

3 hours ago, wise_man said:

The weapon slots feature is also another favorite concept feature of mine here. Really looking forward to see how it'll be (hopefully) implemented in GTA VI.

 

Hell, your take on this inspired me back to implement the same on L&S: Belt holster for all protagonists, shoulder holster exclusive for Cesar, and thigh holster for Maria when she's wearing a dress. Though you can quickly notice the less complexity. It's aimed more for gameplay/aesthetic diversification across the protagonists, something that's also influenced by Bohemians & Blackjack where Julius and Dante have a single waistband holster, whereas the more militiaristic-background Doug has a dual shoulder.

 

What inspires you to take this unprecedented length on weaponry system? The concept is even level above what I've seen in any video game I know.

 

And I don't like to spoil much more about Brannigan, but since you already know it's a period piece (and my debut on that concept type), do you have some advices when making a period-accurate arsenal and weaponry features?

I suppose I'm just heavily attracted to the firearms of games. Bit of a historical gun nut, fascinated by forgotten weapons of the past, old police gear, guns referenced in rap music, etc. Most would agree that period correct vehicles, clothing, and and soundtrack all play a huge part in selling the setting. You think 1940s gangster, you think of the Thompson Submachinegun, and so on. Noticing firearm anachronisms can be rather nuanced. I did quite a bit of background into what would be reasonably attainable in 1978 America.

 

The holster idea has been around for ages, but I wanted to really thoroughly work out the details. I plays well into the other features like stashing. I'm a fan of STALKER which employs the stash system rather convincingly. Coupled with a realistically small ammo reserve, it's a major increase in difficulty, encouraging selectiveness and a constantly evolving arsenal as you play the game.

 

If you're extending an invitation to help with the weapons for Brannigan, I'd be happy to talk about it!

 

Also thanks for the superb comments and observations, it means alot to know people are reading the features and being immersed.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Akaviri

[E Revere]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:05 PM, Akaviri said:

 Concussion

Occurs from heavy car accidents and blunt trauma. You will experience dizzying camera movement and stumbling. Wait it out or take a sobering drug to clear it up.

 Limp

Occurs when falling from car accidents, falling from great heights, or getting kneecapped by debt collectors. Movement speed is greatly reduced until it wears off. Take medicine or drugs to remedy it.

 Bleeding

Urgent symptom. If you get badly shot or stabbed, you will slowly lose health while you leak out. Police will follow your blood trail. Wrap it in a field bandage or tourniquet to stop the effect.

 Trauma

Occurs when the Composure stat is critically depleted. Occurs after near death or companion loss. The protagonist will pause to collect themselves from stress overload. Wait it out or remedy it with drugs.

 Cripple

Semi-permanent effect from serious impacts or sustained abuse. Arms, ribs, and legs can break, causing severe movement penalties. Opiates will get you through it, but the only solution is a hospital visit.

How severe are the medical drawbacks of combat gameplay? What is the threshold before you actually die? Bleeding, cripple, etc. Is it possible to walk around like a deformed troll and still live?

 

Also, are you working on the missions?

Edited March 17, 2023 by E Revere

[Akaviri]

19 minutes ago, E Revere said:

How severe are the medical drawbacks of combat gameplay? What is the threshold before you actually die? Bleeding, cripple, etc. Is it possible to walk around like a deformed troll and still live?

Most are meant to be temporary effects lasting a few miminutes. Enough to be an inconvenience to gameplay that you would be inclined to seek treatment. The threat of death comes not from the effect itself, but by the increased risk is puts you at. You can definitely be totally mangled like a walking dead man. Depending on the severity you may be brushing it off or crawling the streets for help. The med items and drugs go a long way to clearing these things up immediately.

 

The worst of them is bleedout, which would drain your life bar. Depending on the severity you could be left with half, a quarter, or a sliver of life bar. At zero you black out, hopefully waking up with a hospital bill.

 

Cripple is the second worst, not able to kill you in itself but opening you up to way more danger. Imagine jumping from a two story window to escape the cops. You cave in the roof of some poor bastards Stallion, rolling off concussed with a crippled leg. Your headstart on the cops is now complicated by the fact you can't simply outrun them again. You change your game plan. Hide in a dumpster, jack a car, or make it to a payphone to call a friend.

 

I'm glad you took interest in this, no one has really mentioned it yet and now that you ask there are more ways I can explain the ins and out of it. It will be a large influence on the missions and how their action plays out.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Akaviri said:

hopefully waking up with a hospital bill.

Hold on, does this imply that if your health point runs out, you don't always spawn in the hospital? It's actually one feature on my next GTA wishlist, because as conventional as hospital is, it becomes rather unrealistic when you're dying somewhere remote where people won't find you for long time. I like the idea of you waking up in the same spot of your "wasted", but is heavily weakened and still needs to walk to nearby doctor for intensive care.

[Akaviri]

1 hour ago, wise_man said:

Hold on, does this imply that if your health point runs out, you don't always spawn in the hospital? It's actually one feature on my next GTA wishlist, because as conventional as hospital is, it becomes rather unrealistic when you're dying somewhere remote where people won't find you for long time. I like the idea of you waking up in the same spot of your "wasted", but is heavily weakened and still needs to walk to nearby doctor for intensive care.

Yeah I forget if I explicitly state that in the features yet, but you get it. In this, you can really die in extreme circumstances and have to load your last save. By extreme I mean trampled by a subway train, blown up, drowned or engulfed in flames. If you run out of health from a melee beatdown, which would be most common, you may wake up later in an alley with a sliver of health and an empty wallet. If you are downed like this in a public place or have a crew member with you, you would be transported to the hospital. More serious damage from bleeding out or impact would send you to the hospital.

 

What I would like from this is reenacting scenes such ss No Country For Old Men, in the aftermath of the shotgun duel. The idea needs to be further defined, and I havent exactly worked all of the kinks out of yet. Will this be featured in your Brannigan concept?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Akaviri said:

What I would like from this is reenacting scenes such ss No Country For Old Men, in the aftermath of the shotgun duel. The idea needs to be further defined, and I havent exactly worked all of the kinks out of yet. Will this be featured in your Brannigan concept?

I haven't put far enough thoughts on side features like health on Brannigan. One part of me wants to focus more on the concept's most fundamental gameplay point (you know, the one we've discussed on PM) with other features and contents to follow afterwards, to be explained more briefly. But there's a nearly close idea in my head: if you lose a fight with gangs in their territory, such as projects, you'll wake up locked in a room and must escape, in similar vein to RDR 2's mission where Arthur is captured by O'Driscolls.

 

The idea of fatal death erases your unsaved progress sounds harsh, but will definitely force players to avoid unnecessary actions. It's rather handholding, but it is one way to handle inconsistency between a protagonist's personality and what he/she does in free-roam. In popular word, the ludonarrative dissonance. People like Darius should be the cool guy, so why do you force him to rampage the street in the first place?

 

Another option would be to make in-game characters aware of every player's action outside the story, including the dumb ones.  Someone in GTA VI subforum suggests this and couple other context-sensitive ideas, which are pretty much all have been fulfilled in this concept.

 

It's the same idea I've been toying for L&S: every damages cost twice health, your protagonist can get stressed out, injuries (albeit less complex), and how grifting people in rapid succession make them more cautious. These are essentials, especially considering you're playing as "mind" criminals. Though now I think it's still not "forceful" enough for players.

 

Realistically, there should be a mechanic where you can no longer con someone if you do obvious actions around them. Like you cant con a Haitian gang member anymore if you keep attacking the gang. But my concern, this would greatly hinder player's progression to frustration point of softlocking. What do you think is the best way to implement this?

Edited March 19, 2023 by wise_man

[LowTierDude]

I wanted to do a write-up of some thoughts regarding this concept a week after this got posted, but I didn't have the time to do it unfortunately.

 

I gotta say, love the various gangs, both the outfits and the street gangs in this one, feels like you've nailed a good balance between the more classy Godfather-esque mafia outfits and the gritty Warriors-styled hoodlums and cliques. I also liked how there's a lot more characters here that have clear and distinct affiliations with the various gangs in the city, which was sort of covered in 4, but not to the extent seen here, and that's pretty impressive. They feel like distinct entities with unique styles and things about them that other gangs don't do, though it would be cool if descriptions for the unique vehicles they drive and the weapons they carry are also included to really give each gang its own voice.

 

Map-wise, it's cool that Shaolin makes an appearance here, but still kind of bummed that Bohan still feels like the smallest borough. I think there's a lot more to the Bronx that can be explored given that it's the birthplace of a fair amount of genres featured in the radio section. Would also love to see a full graphic of the map if possible as well because I feel like the descriptions don't really do the scale of the city justice.

 

Gun selection is great. I especially liked that you've included the automatic Mauser in there and it's association with the Triads. They fire it in a weird way and I'm glad that a detail like that was included and implied in there.

 

I can see that you've included all sorts of influences from other games, from Mafia 2 with the Cop responses and visibility to The Warriors with the Radio Jacking. The inclusion of New York/70s locales such as Dive Bars and Peep Shows are a nice touch as well, and the fact that you can actually enter and interact within those spaces give me strong Deuce vibes.

 

The soundtrack's a no-brainer here. It's all the good stuff. So much variety and different styles of soul, rock and jazz that I probably won't get bored of driving around in-game! I personally love this version of Fusion, certainly beats the one in GTA 4. You've got The Crusaders, MFSB, Candido, Lonnie Liston Smith, Roy Ayers, all the great jazz-funk artists, and a nice throwback to Vice City, Deodato. The whole station feels like a gigantic love letter to Driver: Parallel Lines imo, and that's real cool. Stations like Radio Anarchy and Electrowave also have pretty great leftfield stuff, and while I like how The Journey plays prog rock now, I personally would have enjoyed it more as an early ambient station much like the one seen in 4.

 

Would love to see some sample missions for this concept next as I feel like the setting, gameplay and atmosphere are already off to a great start.

Edited March 19, 2023 by kobeni

[Akaviri]

2 hours ago, kobeni said:

I wanted to do a write-up of some thoughts regarding this concept a week after this got posted, but I didn't have the time to do it unfortunately.

 

I gotta say, love the various gangs, both the outfits and the street gangs in this one, feels like you've nailed a good balance between the more classy Godfather-esque mafia outfits and the gritty Warriors-styled hoodlums and cliques. I also liked how there's a lot more characters here that have clear and distinct affiliations with the various gangs in the city, which was sort of covered in 4, but not to the extent seen here, and that's pretty impressive. They feel like distinct entities with unique styles and things about them that other gangs don't do, though it would be cool if descriptions for the unique vehicles they drive and the weapons they carry are also included to really give each gang its own voice.

 

Map-wise, it's cool that Shaolin makes an appearance here, but still kind of bummed that Bohan still feels like the smallest borough. I think there's a lot more to the Bronx that can be explored given that it's the birthplace of a fair amount of genres featured in the radio section. Would also love to see a full graphic of the map if possible as well because I feel like the descriptions don't really do the scale of the city justice.

 

Gun selection is great. I especially liked that you've included the automatic Mauser in there and it's association with the Triads. They fire it in a weird way and I'm glad that a detail like that was included and implied in there.

 

I can see that you've included all sorts of influences from other games, from Mafia 2 with the Cop responses and visibility to The Warriors with the Radio Jacking. The inclusion of New York/70s locales such as Dive Bars and Peep Shows are a nice touch as well, and the fact that you can actually enter and interact within those spaces give me strong Deuce vibes.

 

The soundtrack's a no-brainer here. It's all the good stuff. So much variety and different styles of soul, rock and jazz that I probably won't get bored of driving around in-game! I personally love this version of Fusion, certainly beats the one in GTA 4. You've got The Crusaders, MFSB, Candido, Lonnie Liston Smith, Roy Ayers, all the great jazz-funk artists, and a nice throwback to Vice City, Deodato. The whole station feels like a gigantic love letter to Driver: Parallel Lines imo, and that's real cool. Stations like Radio Anarchy and Electrowave also have pretty great leftfield stuff, and while I like how The Journey plays prog rock now, I personally would have enjoyed it more as an early ambient station much like the one seen in 4.

 

Would love to see some sample missions for this concept next as I feel like the setting, gameplay and atmosphere are already off to a great start.

No worries, your feedback has been happily anticipated. To be honest I'm not the most well versed with the mafia stuff, at least not on the level of some of us here. I did some deep research into the street gangs and made sure each one had a real life counterpart. Their territories and styles are relatively accurate. I did provide some in-game information about their outfits, if applicable. I could go a little further with their fleet vehicles and weapons, as you suggest. There's even still room to add a few more minor gangs. We'll see as things play out, most likely they will develop alongside the Connection.

 

Shaolin was a necessary add-in. It was surprisingly more difficult to find pictures and information about Staten Island in the 70s. I didn't know much about it, so I had to do a lot of investigative work to understand the geography. MOB's Family Ties was a good reference for that, but I tried my best not to plagiarize anything. For me, Staunton Island is a throwback and a perfect name so I'm glad that was the available option. It's an interesting borough to include because it's got some natural landscape to it. The massive landfill and backwoods would make the best place to screw around away from the city. It acts as an Alderney extension that connects back to Broker, completing the circuit of highway through the entire city.

 

Bohan indeed is the bastard child borough, and I had simply increased its size to rival that of Dukes. However it also suffers for a lack of neighborhoods. This gets tricky, because the Bronx is very large but fades into Yonkers and other white suburbs and I wasn't sure where to draw the line with expanding it. If you were around for the initial post, I originally had a huge map that incorporated the additional boroughs of Long Island and the Carraways. I decided to remove it and cut those latter areas because it was just too much to develop and include in the story. Long Island is massive and while it makes for a wealthy contrast to the dystopia of 70s LC, it has a lot of dead space to justify. Instead I settled on Carraway Island (Rockaway Island), a long beachfront peninsula bleeding back into Dukes. I will work on a new map for the future, and I can hopefully do better justice to Bohan. There are plenty of neighborhoods that I could add in between those that already exist, and this goes for all of the boroughs. I think this will be the most likely path, increasing the size of the IV map and injecting new neighborhoods to fill in those that were neglected.

 

The weapons are always my guilty pleasure. The Mauser is a badass piece and you are right, the Chinese were very fond of it. It's also familiar from Red Dead Redemption, and Black Caesar carried one so you know it's gotta be included.

 

I know the Journey has been perverted into something else, which is not a bad thing, but I wouldn't even know where to start with Ambient in the 70s. That is definitely your domain. If you've got any sample tracks for that shoot me a PM!

 

I know everyone is itching for the missions. I've given myself a comfortable year to put it together at the expense of you all, though it's not for lack of effort. I just have a neurotic process and frequent writers block. Just as Coconut Kid called me out on constantly f*cking With the Post Order, you can imagine how obsessive I would be with the most critical section. I didn't want to rush it, write myself into a corner, or walk away dissatisfied by any measure. I have written, scrapped and redid the whole thing because the first draft felt empty to me. I write much better when it's formed around the main characters and their personal lives, rather than playing connect the dots with the mafia history of real life. At this point, I feel that has been done over enough now by other people anyways. We will see a lot of that, but I won't have everything contort to fit the appearance of every mobster. It's a big world -- you aren't meant to meet every player. Some of the most powerful names are only heard of. I've decided to let the chips fall where they may with that and it's taken a lot of weight off of me to just write a good story tailoring to the true GTA experience.

[Akaviri]

19 hours ago, wise_man said:

Realistically, there should be a mechanic where you can no longer con someone if you do obvious actions around them. Like you cant con a Haitian gang member anymore if you keep attacking the gang. But my concern, this would greatly hinder player's progression to frustration point of softlocking. What do you think is the best way to implement this?

I think some kind of relationship mechanic would be necessary, particularly one with each faction. If you are at war with a gang, they won't wait to hear your words before opening fire. If you are at least neutral, you still have specific relationships with each person on the street. The gang doesn't have it out for you, but that particular guy will after he realizes he's been conned. Maybe that also has a small influence on the faction relation, because realistically he may go back to his boys and drag your name. You keep conning those Haitians, then you keep pushing the needle toward a hostile relationship with the entire gang. I suppose the only way to relieve that would be some sort of truce, or waiting it out over a period of time. This would make it undesirable to get to that point with any gang in the first place, because it's very bad for business, so you should be damn careful to never be made.

 

19 hours ago, wise_man said:

The idea of fatal death erases your unsaved progress sounds harsh, but will definitely force players to avoid unnecessary actions. It's rather handholding, but it is one way to handle inconsistency between a protagonist's personality and what he/she does in free-roam. In popular word, the ludonarrative dissonance. People like Darius should be the cool guy, so why do you force him to rampage the street in the first place?

Exactly. If all this were to go according to plan, you wouldn't even need  to go out on a rampage to entertain yourself. You'd have just as much fun trying to steal someone's wallet or convince them to follow you into an unsuspected con. Sure, you want to drop a few thousand on machineguns and massacre the police precinct, that is an option and it will be exhilarating as you expect death around any corner. When you succeed in winning a firefight against all odds, your feeling of adrenaline would parallel that of the protagonist. The increased difficulty of combat and injury is accommodated for. You have items that will help you, hired accomplices to bolster your firepower, and communication features to try and deescalate situations. Someone mentioned Carlito's Way earlier. Imagine getting into a stalemate like that, with your pistol out of ammo. You sit behind cover and shout out to the enemy to surrender, threaten them with your reputation, or offer to double their pay to switch sides. Maybe they take to it. How f*cking cool would you feel then?

Edited March 19, 2023 by Akaviri

[E Revere]

8 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

I did some deep research into the street gangs and made sure each one had a real life counterpart.

I appreciate the lengths you guys go to establish parallels between your concepts and real life. But I don't think it's that necessary. I'd say it's more hindering if the whole thing is bound to real life. I appreciate a good allegory but originality is great too. There should always be a balance between the two.

 

13 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

This gets tricky, because the Bronx is very large but fades into Yonkers and other white suburbs and I wasn't sure where to draw the line with expanding it.

This problem comes up with other places too. I'm very curious to see the map of GTA VI and where it will stop in comparison to the real Miami mainland.

 

15 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

I know everyone is itching for the missions. I've given myself a comfortable year to put it together at the expense of you all, though it's not for lack of effort. I just have a neurotic process and frequent writers block.

I understand completely, man. I have that too, I'd say we all do. But at some point, I had to draw the line and realize this whole thing will take me a decade if I drag it out any longer. And I'll find it hard to forgive myself if I'm approaching 30 and still doing this lol. I think struggling and making something you'll be dissatisfied with in the end is worth it since you'll have learnt something you can use in your next concept. You only become a master by pushing yourself through. That's what I've been telling myself. Besides, the artist is always more critical of his art than its consumer. You might think what you're writing sucks, but our eyes will be attracted to the good, not the arbitrary flaws.

 

21 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

I write much better when it's formed around the main characters and their personal lives, rather than playing connect the dots with the mafia history of real life.

Agreed and I'll 100% support your decision to pursue that. Some of the mob centered concepts are starting to look a lot like each other. And I should remind that although a lot of Scorsese, Pacino, De Niro and Pesci flicks are identical, it's the performers and their personalities that make each one unique. From Casino to Goodfellas, from Scarface to The Irishman. I like concepts for trying to uncover more about the current games, but the personal story should come first and the environment should come second. I like Red Line for this. It tells us a lot about the Five Families 16 years prior but it has a great cast of characters too.

 

6 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

I think some kind of relationship mechanic would be necessary, particularly one with each faction. If you are at war with a gang, they won't wait to hear your words before opening fire.

This actually reminds me of how peds in GTA V attack you just for standing near them. It is an impractical game mechanic but I actually realized it is pretty normal for someone to get nervous if someone else is standing in front of them, looking them in the eye and not doing anything. Maybe you can do something with this. An even more advanced version of the NPC interaction in GTA SA. I'm talking about how the Ballas question you for being in their turf in case you can't tell.

 

8 minutes ago, Akaviri said:

Exactly. If all this were to go according to plan, you wouldn't even need  to go out on a rampage to entertain yourself. You'd have just as much fun trying to steal someone's wallet or convince them to follow you into an unsuspected con. Sure, you want to drop a few thousand on machineguns and massacre the police precinct, that is an option and it will be exhilarating as you expect death around any corner. When you succeed in winning a firefight against all odds, your feeling of adrenaline would parallel that of the protagonist. The increased difficulty of combat and injury is accommodated for. You have items that will help you, hired accomplices to bolster your firepower, and communication features to try and deescalate situations. Someone mentioned Carlito's Way earlier. Imagine getting into a stalemate like that, with your pistol out of ammo. You sit behind cover and shout out to the enemy to surrender, threaten them with your reputation, or offer to double their pay to switch sides. Maybe they take to it. How f*cking cool would you feel then?

Amazing ideas 100%. Some people think immersive gameplay like this wouldn't be fun but Deus Ex flicks that right into the bin. I wish more open-world crime fiction games tried to be immersive sims. It's a really missed opportunity and it would work amazing. When I'm done with GTA Cosa Nostra, it'll be hard for me not to come up with an immersive sim for my next concept. It's very captivating.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Akaviri said:

I suppose the only way to relieve that would be some sort of truce, or waiting it out over a period of time. This would make it undesirable to get to that point with any gang in the first place, because it's very bad for business, so you should be damn careful to never be made.

A relationship-to-faction meter system won't work as good in a concept that features dozens of gangs and independent businessmen to hit. But I think I've got a better idea now, something like RDR 2's lockdown feature. That being said, I'll work on it later.

 

You're right, nothing can stop me from punishing players for disobeying the rules of confidence tricks, for coming out from the shadow and attacking everyone in the street. When you get Maria to openly attack the Bratva amidst a con, there shouldn't be a way out for her. Marks like Andriy Maximov will quickly identify her regardless. No other way out than reloading the last save where you haven't done anything stupid yet. It's brutal but you'll learn lesson: real grifters don't do that, kids.

 

6 hours ago, Akaviri said:

I did some deep research into the street gangs and made sure each one had a real life counterpart. Their territories and styles are relatively accurate. I did provide some in-game information about their outfits, if applicable. I could go a little further with their fleet vehicles and weapons, as you suggest. There's even still room to add a few more minor gangs. We'll see as things play out, most likely they will develop alongside the Connection.

5 hours ago, E Revere said:

I appreciate the lengths you guys go to establish parallels between your concepts and real life. But I don't think it's that necessary. I'd say it's more hindering if the whole thing is bound to real life. I appreciate a good allegory but originality is great too. There should always be a balance between the two.

I have to agree with E Revere, though. I had this conversation with Tyla the other days about street gangs naming, and he told me to not confine myself with reality. Real-life Chicago has hundreds of street gangs, impossible to pull research on each one, let alone projected them into the fictional universe at the end. So for Brannigan, only major street gangs with significant relevance that have real-life equivalents (like Black Disciples, El Rukn, Spanish Lords). The rest are totally made up, inspired by the overall gang culture in different regions of Chicago.

 

6 hours ago, Akaviri said:

If you were around for the initial post, I originally had a huge map that incorporated the additional boroughs of Long Island and the Carraways. I decided to remove it and cut those latter areas because it was just too much to develop and include in the story. Long Island is massive and while it makes for a wealthy contrast to the dystopia of 70s LC, it has a lot of dead space to justify. Instead I settled on Carraway Island (Rockaway Island), a long beachfront peninsula bleeding back into Dukes. I will work on a new map for the future, and I can hopefully do better justice to Bohan. There are plenty of neighborhoods that I could add in between those that already exist, and this goes for all of the boroughs. I think this will be the most likely path, increasing the size of the IV map and injecting new neighborhoods to fill in those that were neglected.

Ah yeah, I've been wondering where that cool map goes. But looking back, I understand how the map needs a redesign. You barely mention the Long Island in the "Areas of Interest" section, and why Algonquin has the same size (CMIIW) when areas like Little Italy and Chinatown would be expanded? So I'll look forward for the new map.

 

6 hours ago, Akaviri said:

I know everyone is itching for the missions. I've given myself a comfortable year to put it together at the expense of you all, though it's not for lack of effort. I just have a neurotic process and frequent writers block. Just as Coconut Kid called me out on constantly f*cking With the Post Order, you can imagine how obsessive I would be with the most critical section. I didn't want to rush it, write myself into a corner, or walk away dissatisfied by any measure. I have written, scrapped and redid the whole thing because the first draft felt empty to me.

I have been there, my friend. Years of getting stuck on deciding the direction of L&S before eventually publishing it. There are still many negative thoughts in my head that say, "Hey, this B idea sounds better than A". But seeing how you guys already enjoy the concept at its current state, I know I must neglect that rewriting temptation.

 

6 hours ago, Akaviri said:

 I write much better when it's formed around the main characters and their personal lives, rather than playing connect the dots with the mafia history of real life. At this point, I feel that has been done over enough now by other people anyways. We will see a lot of that, but I won't have everything contort to fit the appearance of every mobster. It's a big world -- you aren't meant to meet every player. Some of the most powerful names are only heard of. I've decided to let the chips fall where they may with that and it's taken a lot of weight off of me to just write a good story tailoring to the true GTA experience.

Glad to hear that. At first, I'm worried that the Italian Mobs would have too much major roles again in LC78. I actually like it better that 90% of the Commission high-rank members don't appear in GTA IV, only their names surrounded in mysticism, like they're omnipotent figures that sit too high from Niko's reach.

[LowTierDude]

9 hours ago, E Revere said:

I understand completely, man. I have that too, I'd say we all do. But at some point, I had to draw the line and realize this whole thing will take me a decade if I drag it out any longer. And I'll find it hard to forgive myself if I'm approaching 30 and still doing this lol. I think struggling and making something you'll be dissatisfied with in the end is worth it since you'll have learnt something you can use in your next concept. You only become a master by pushing yourself through. That's what I've been telling myself. Besides, the artist is always more critical of his art than its consumer. You might think what you're writing sucks, but our eyes will be attracted to the good, not the arbitrary flaws.

these are definitely words to live by.

Edited March 20, 2023 by kobeni

[Guest]

Hey man, how's doing? I wonder, have you watched The Monkey Hustle (1976), another blaxploitation film about hustlers set in Chicago. Would've been one of inspirations for Darius' storyline.

 

[hi k2000]

oh sh*t man i need more

btw when do you post new stuff? I'm looking forward to it

[Kiro Ivo]

Where's more?

[Guest]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:50 AM, Akaviri said:

I know everyone is itching for the missions. I've given myself a comfortable year to put it together at the expense of you all, though it's not for lack of effort. I just have a neurotic process and frequent writers block. Just as Coconut Kid called me out on constantly f*cking With the Post Order, you can imagine how obsessive I would be with the most critical section. I didn't want to rush it, write myself into a corner, or walk away dissatisfied by any measure. I have written, scrapped and redid the whole thing because the first draft felt empty to me. I write much better when it's formed around the main characters and their personal lives, rather than playing connect the dots with the mafia history of real life. At this point, I feel that has been done over enough now by other people anyways. We will see a lot of that, but I won't have everything contort to fit the appearance of every mobster. It's a big world -- you aren't meant to meet every player. Some of the most powerful names are only heard of. I've decided to let the chips fall where they may with that and it's taken a lot of weight off of me to just write a good story tailoring to the true GTA experience.

On 3/20/2023 at 9:36 AM, One of Wisemen said:

I have been there, my friend. Years of getting stuck on deciding the direction of L&S before eventually publishing it. There are still many negative thoughts in my head that say, "Hey, this B idea sounds better than A". But seeing how you guys already enjoy the concept at its current state, I know I must neglect that rewriting temptation.

I'd like to bring back the old comments because of my rewriting decision again lmao.

 

The story pitch I've been working on this whole time ran well until I reached the latest eight missions. I actually hadn't pictured the entire story at that time and when I came up with a summary, it felt too rushed, the joint arc felt forced, the second half fell into the same GTA V's problem (too many things happened). Overall, it didn't hit hard.

 

I insisted on writing more detailed stuffs chronologically before. Like I won't write much about the casino mission because it was yet to happen eventhough I had all these interesting ideas about it already. I ended up stuck overthinking about mission X, turning it into a roadblock that prevented the path to those cooler moments.

 

I change the methodology now. After establishing a short description of each chapter (now it consists of six chapters, not three), I expand it left and right. Instead of progressing from mission #1 to #2 to #3 and so on, I work multiple story sections at once, especially the most interesting missions. For example, in addition of writing the very first introductory mission and brainstorming the second, I also write this cruise ship crossover mission and think about what should be placed before and after that. It lights the excitement back. It helps me keeping the pace right. Let me spread the bricks into many buildings simultaneously.

 

I don't know how do you write LC78 story or how far you've gone currently, but if you encounter the same issue, you can try the same. Write down the opening prison mission, and at the same, don't be afraid of writing early scripts for the missions covering Lufthansa heist, Cangelosi's death, the antagonist's betrayal, the finale, or anything you can't wait to show the world. You can still publish the missions in chronological order, but I believe this writing strategy can shorten the gap between the publish dates.

Edited August 16, 2024 by One of Wisemen

[Kiro Ivo]

On 8/16/2024 at 10:18 AM, One of Wisemen said:

I'd like to bring back the old comments because of my rewriting decision again lmao.

 

The story pitch I've been working on this whole time ran well until I reached the latest eight missions. I actually hadn't pictured the entire story at that time and when I came up with a summary, it felt too rushed, the joint arc felt forced, the second half fell into the same GTA V's problem (too many things happened). Overall, it didn't hit hard.

 

I insisted on writing more detailed stuffs chronologically before. Like I won't write much about the casino mission because it was yet to happen eventhough I had all these interesting ideas about it already. I ended up stuck overthinking about mission X, turning it into a roadblock that prevented the path to those cooler moments.

 

I change the methodology now. After establishing a short description of each chapter (now it consists of six chapters, not three), I expand it left and right. Instead of progressing from mission #1 to #2 to #3 and so on, I work multiple story sections at once, especially the most interesting missions. For example, in addition of writing the very first introductory mission and brainstorming the second, I also write this cruise ship crossover mission and think about what should be placed before and after that. It lights the excitement back. It helps me keeping the pace right. Let me spread the bricks into many buildings simultaneously.

 

I don't know how do you write LC78 story or how far you've gone currently, but if you encounter the same issue, you can try the same. Write down the opening prison mission, and at the same, don't be afraid of writing early scripts for the missions covering Lufthansa heist, Cangelosi's death, the antagonist's betrayal, the finale, or anything you can't wait to show the world. You can still publish the missions in chronological order, but I believe this writing strategy can shorten the gap between the publish dates.

 

I imagine Ricardo and Co. doing mass arsons and burglaries.

And that giant wave of gang members march down streets looting and destroying everything and bopping with cops.

[Abel Corleone]

Idk if this thread is still active, but all I can is... RIP to Mitt Fitzsimmons aka the one and only Gene Hackman.

(I apologize to the OP and the mods if this is not allowed).