GTA is seriously suffering from the "complex morally conflicted protagonist" plague

[AmigaMix]

4 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

IMO, this is because I find that neither the main story nor the epilogue were short.

I enjoy playing through RDR2 but whenever I finish it and look back, asking myself if it was worth going through all that. It is hard for me to say yes if I am honest.

I think I clocked something like 200~250 hours when I finished the story (including the epilogue), and I would have been up for more... but that's me.

Having said that, I'm not sure how my experience would be a second time around, with the structure of the game being what it is.

[Ryo256]

1 minute ago, AmigaMix said:

I think I clocked something like 200~250 hours when I finished the story (including the epilogue), and I would have been up for more... but that's me.

Having said that, I'm not sure how my experience would be a second time around, with the structure of the game being what it is.

My humble suggestion is that it would be nice if the length of the game can be influenced by the player e.g in some missions like you can reject Hosea/Dutch offer to fish and race in story missions. So Rockstar knows that there are players that want a shorter experience so they implemented those options in the example I gave. So maybe in the future, we might have more shortcuts for larger part of the story. But if you do the bare minimum in RDR2, I think you will still be forced to do at least 45 hours if I'm not mistakened. Like if I want to unlock John and play as him based on a different combination of Arthur's decisions, I would have to go through all that again.

Games like Witcher 3 and Skyrim sometime lets you skip to certain DLCs (some of which work as epilogue) so I think that's a nice thing to see more in future Rockstar Games IMO.

[AmigaMix]

40 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

Games like Witcher 3 and Skyrim sometime lets you skip to certain DLCs (some of which work as epilogue) so I think that's a nice thing to see more in future Rockstar Games IMO.

The pre-Bethesda Fallouts (and New Vegas) were also amazing with that, and the way they handled it (e.g. letting you cross almost everyone to achieve your goals), would fit GTA's core philosophy like a glove... which brings us back to the benefits of a less conflicted protagonist.

Edited September 14 by AmigaMix

[The Tracker]

This has been my dream idea of a GTA protagonist ever since GTA V came out;

 

GTA VI's protagonist has to be like Vito Escaletta from Mafia II, someone that doesn't necessarily enjoys being a criminal, but opts to be one as a resource to earn a living easier and provide for himself (Or even his family is he has any), no complaints, no regrets, just pick ups his gun whenever is necessary to maintain his position in bussiness. It's up to him is he decides to get powerful in long run, but he isn't getting out of that life any time soon. It's just another profession for him. 

Edited September 14 by The Tracker

[Comrade Monke]

42 minutes ago, AmigaMix said:

The pre-Bethesda Fallouts (and New Vegas) were also amazing with that, and the way they handled it (e.g. letting you cross almost everyone to achieve your goals), would fit GTA's core philosophy like a glove... which brings us back to the benefits of a less conflicted protagonist.

GTA 2: Am i a joke to you?

15 minutes ago, The Tracker said:

This has been my dream idea of a GTA protagonist ever since GTA V came out;

 

GTA VI's protagonist has to be like Vito Escaletta from Mafia II, someone that doesn't necessarily enjoys being a criminal, but opts to be one as a resource to earn a living easier and provide for himself (Or even his family is he has any), no complaints, no regrets, just pick ups his gun whenever is necessary to maintain his position in bussiness. It's up to him is he decides to get powerful in long run, but he isn't getting out of that life any time soon. It's just another profession for him. 

This was basically Tommy Vercetti and Toni Cipriani 

[AmigaMix]

43 minutes ago, Comrade Monke said:

GTA 2: Am i a joke to you?

Heh, talk about missing the forest for the trees!  

Edit. "Talk about missing the obvious!", is what I was trying to say.

Edit 2. Actually, GTA 3 also somewhat fits the bill, with several skippable missions.

Edited September 14 by AmigaMix

[The Tracker]

1 minute ago, Comrade Monke said:

This was basically Tommy Vercetti and Toni Cipriani 

 

I'd say they were more of the type that seeked to be criminals for more personal/traditional reasons, and main intentions were rise to the top above anything else. 

 

Vito basically hopped into the criminal underworld (Which was a completely new world to him) as a way out of poverty, and unlike those two he wasn't psychotic or bloodthirsty at all, he simply seemed to have no problems with killing, as long as it paid, his main objectives didn't seem to be anything else than economic estability and freedom, which for me, felt like a more fresh, simple and unique motivation over to what most criminal open world games (Especially GTA) seem to offer. 

[BennyGod]

On the other hand, Trevor is a heartless psychopath but is still a boring character. 

[The Time Ranger]

I see where you're coming from, I get the appeal of having a strong no nonsense protagonist like Tommy. But for me I like the more complex, morally grey character, it's an interesting mix, a guy like Niko or Johnny, they do heinous things and are by no means good people yet they have a softer side, Niko loves his cousin and cares for Bernie and Kate, Johnny is wrapped around Ashley's finger, they draw you in with their loves and good points yet they disgust you with their actions, it creates a love/hate complex with the character. The criminal or tough guy with a good heart is a common trope in the media, like Omar in The Wire or Ray Donovan. 

 

At times it can become an archtype, but it's needed at times to create an interest or bond almost with the character. If you don't care about the character it's hard to be drawn to the story. On the other hand you have psychos like Trevor, with very few redeeming qualities, I think it's quite difficult to keep him engaging for long periods without him having relatable or understandable motivations. Tough character to write as a protagonist.

[Donald Lov]

My theory is that the people behind the writing of GTA are the kind of people that wanted to make films early on in their life, but later happened to find themselves in the gaming industry, thereby using the medium to fulfill their initial aspirations. As soon as Rockstar got their hands on serious money, technology and more production time, they immediately started veering towards the cinema-like presentation and dramaturgy. I'd argue it's what they always wanted to do, and the straightforwardness, coolness and simplicity of the 3d era was more of a happy accident caused by inferior tecnology, tighter schedules and lesser money amount.

[unkown2345]

Easiest way to solve this is to have a character develop from good to bad, like Michael Corleone in The Godfather, maybe in the prologue he works a sucker common man job and later is pulled into the life of crime and eventually becomes a kingpin in the end.

[E Revere]

Any type of protagonist can work well. The only thing that matters is having good writing. So no GTA V trio. I'm more concerned about having characters be from more innovative backgrounds. 'Cause I'd be lying if I didn't say they're getting a little linear. Let's have a protagonist be come from somewhere no one ever thought of. This might happen in the next game if they play the female protaognist right.

[Algonquin Assassin]

7 hours ago, The Time Ranger said:

I see where you're coming from, I get the appeal of having a strong no nonsense protagonist like Tommy. But for me I like the more complex, morally grey character, it's an interesting mix, a guy like Niko or Johnny, they do heinous things and are by no means good people yet they have a softer side, Niko loves his cousin and cares for Bernie and Kate, Johnny is wrapped around Ashley's finger, they draw you in with their loves and good points yet they disgust you with their actions, it creates a love/hate complex with the character. The criminal or tough guy with a good heart is a common trope in the media, like Omar in The Wire or Ray Donovan. 

 

At times it can become an archtype, but it's needed at times to create an interest or bond almost with the character. If you don't care about the character it's hard to be drawn to the story. On the other hand you have psychos like Trevor, with very few redeeming qualities, I think it's quite difficult to keep him engaging for long periods without him having relatable or understandable motivations. Tough character to write as a protagonist.

 

Couldn't agree more. 

 

When I think about a lot of my favourite video protagonists they tend to be in the morally grey realm. I know deep down they're not necessarily good people like you, I or anyone else (in the sense we're not criminals), but they don't always have to be rotten to to the core either. 

 

The thing I like about guys like Niko, Johnny, Arthur etc is despite some of the bad things they do I can connect and relate to them on other levels. Then again I still have a soft spot for guys like Tommy who are mostly about business without necessarily being morally grey yet convey just enough charisma and charm to still be likeable.

Edited September 17 by Algonquin Assassin

[Cutter De Blanc]

I never found CJ to be particularly morally conflicted

 

He always seemed real comfortable boosting cars and killing people 

 

His conflictions in missions never seemed to be moral ones, they seemed to stem more from self interest than anything else.

Edited September 17 by Cutter De Blanc

[Comrade Monke]

6 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

I never found CJ to be particularly morally conflicted

 

He always seemed real comfortable boosting cars and killing people 

 

His conflictions in missions never seemed to be moral ones, they seemed to stem more from self interest than anything else.

Damn bro you got the whole squad laughing 

[Jeansowaty]

Me personally I've been writing many GTA storylines and I don't really reckon in any that I wrote (or helped at writing) the protag wanted to exactly leave crime per se. Let's see:

 

3D era:

-one guy sticks up people to get money for his sick sister and gets consumed by jealousy due to his best friend joining the Families, whereas he starts working for the Ballas in response

-one guy inherits the leadership of his gang and is forced to defend his organization from rivals

-one guy is a capo of his crime family and tries to make sure other rival families don't take over their assets

-one guy decides to avenge his fallen brother on a Max Payne-esque mission

-one guy uses the current power vacuum in the city's crime to uprise his fallen crime family

-one guy is caught up in an internal conflict of a crime family he literally married himself into 

-I also took the liberty to rewrite the Frosted Winter mod story by Beginit/Pistukas with Joey as the protag. In my rewrite, which is set a little earlier, Joey deals with his ever growing paranoia and attempts to keep the Leones afloat, with mixed results. 

 

HD era:

-one guy is an alcoholic, brother-like figure to his comrades in arms and his addictions and easy going nature bring him into trouble

-one guy is a raging steroid addicted gang OG who learns brute force and power aren't the way to lead things

-one guy tries to find his own place in the city, comes from a poor background and just tries to survive

 

I am not a fan of protags that are brute assholes who don't respect anyone, but instead I prefer a protag who is balanced. Has strengths and weaknesses. Has morals, but can also be a hypocrite. As Sam Lake said about Max Payne: "If you have a strong protagonist, you can put him into any situation and it will work."

Edited September 18 by Jeansowaty

[Zello]

f*ck morals we need a bad guy

 

[sabitsuki]

I love games like Vice City and Saints Row 1 and 2 for this very reason. The protagonists in those games don't juggle around with questions about morality or criminal life because they are by nature ambitious, cunning and bloodthirsty criminals who have no qualms about getting their hands dirty, which is apt for games that revolve around gangs and organized crime.

 

These sort of games are ultimately a power fantasy for many people so unless it's written extremely well (as was the case for games like GTA 4, Mafia 2 and RDR2) shoehorning tales about ethics and morality can come off as insincere and preachy and only serve to reinforce that pervasive feeling of ludonarrative dissonance.

Edited September 26 by sabitsuki