GTA is seriously suffering from the "complex morally conflicted protagonist" plague

[AmigaMix]

4 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

IMO, this is because I find that neither the main story nor the epilogue were short.

I enjoy playing through RDR2 but whenever I finish it and look back, asking myself if it was worth going through all that. It is hard for me to say yes if I am honest.

I think I clocked something like 200~250 hours when I finished the story (including the epilogue), and I would have been up for more... but that's me.

Having said that, I'm not sure how my experience would be a second time around, with the structure of the game being what it is.

[Ryo256]

1 minute ago, AmigaMix said:

I think I clocked something like 200~250 hours when I finished the story (including the epilogue), and I would have been up for more... but that's me.

Having said that, I'm not sure how my experience would be a second time around, with the structure of the game being what it is.

My humble suggestion is that it would be nice if the length of the game can be influenced by the player e.g in some missions like you can reject Hosea/Dutch offer to fish and race in story missions. So Rockstar knows that there are players that want a shorter experience so they implemented those options in the example I gave. So maybe in the future, we might have more shortcuts for larger part of the story. But if you do the bare minimum in RDR2, I think you will still be forced to do at least 45 hours if I'm not mistakened. Like if I want to unlock John and play as him based on a different combination of Arthur's decisions, I would have to go through all that again.

Games like Witcher 3 and Skyrim sometime lets you skip to certain DLCs (some of which work as epilogue) so I think that's a nice thing to see more in future Rockstar Games IMO.

[AmigaMix]

40 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

Games like Witcher 3 and Skyrim sometime lets you skip to certain DLCs (some of which work as epilogue) so I think that's a nice thing to see more in future Rockstar Games IMO.

The pre-Bethesda Fallouts (and New Vegas) were also amazing with that, and the way they handled it (e.g. letting you cross almost everyone to achieve your goals), would fit GTA's core philosophy like a glove... which brings us back to the benefits of a less conflicted protagonist.

Edited September 14, 2022 by AmigaMix

[The Tracker]

This has been my dream idea of a GTA protagonist ever since GTA V came out;

 

GTA VI's protagonist has to be like Vito Escaletta from Mafia II, someone that doesn't necessarily enjoys being a criminal, but opts to be one as a resource to earn a living easier and provide for himself (Or even his family is he has any), no complaints, no regrets, just pick ups his gun whenever is necessary to maintain his position in bussiness. It's up to him is he decides to get powerful in long run, but he isn't getting out of that life any time soon. It's just another profession for him. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by The Tracker

[Comrade Monke]

42 minutes ago, AmigaMix said:

The pre-Bethesda Fallouts (and New Vegas) were also amazing with that, and the way they handled it (e.g. letting you cross almost everyone to achieve your goals), would fit GTA's core philosophy like a glove... which brings us back to the benefits of a less conflicted protagonist.

GTA 2: Am i a joke to you?

15 minutes ago, The Tracker said:

This has been my dream idea of a GTA protagonist ever since GTA V came out;

 

GTA VI's protagonist has to be like Vito Escaletta from Mafia II, someone that doesn't necessarily enjoys being a criminal, but opts to be one as a resource to earn a living easier and provide for himself (Or even his family is he has any), no complaints, no regrets, just pick ups his gun whenever is necessary to maintain his position in bussiness. It's up to him is he decides to get powerful in long run, but he isn't getting out of that life any time soon. It's just another profession for him. 

This was basically Tommy Vercetti and Toni Cipriani 

[AmigaMix]

43 minutes ago, Comrade Monke said:

GTA 2: Am i a joke to you?

Heh, talk about missing the forest for the trees!  

Edit. "Talk about missing the obvious!", is what I was trying to say.

Edit 2. Actually, GTA 3 also somewhat fits the bill, with several skippable missions.

Edited September 14, 2022 by AmigaMix

[The Tracker]

1 minute ago, Comrade Monke said:

This was basically Tommy Vercetti and Toni Cipriani 

 

I'd say they were more of the type that seeked to be criminals for more personal/traditional reasons, and main intentions were rise to the top above anything else. 

 

Vito basically hopped into the criminal underworld (Which was a completely new world to him) as a way out of poverty, and unlike those two he wasn't psychotic or bloodthirsty at all, he simply seemed to have no problems with killing, as long as it paid, his main objectives didn't seem to be anything else than economic estability and freedom, which for me, felt like a more fresh, simple and unique motivation over to what most criminal open world games (Especially GTA) seem to offer. 

[BennyGod]

On the other hand, Trevor is a heartless psychopath but is still a boring character. 

[The Time Ranger]

I see where you're coming from, I get the appeal of having a strong no nonsense protagonist like Tommy. But for me I like the more complex, morally grey character, it's an interesting mix, a guy like Niko or Johnny, they do heinous things and are by no means good people yet they have a softer side, Niko loves his cousin and cares for Bernie and Kate, Johnny is wrapped around Ashley's finger, they draw you in with their loves and good points yet they disgust you with their actions, it creates a love/hate complex with the character. The criminal or tough guy with a good heart is a common trope in the media, like Omar in The Wire or Ray Donovan. 

 

At times it can become an archtype, but it's needed at times to create an interest or bond almost with the character. If you don't care about the character it's hard to be drawn to the story. On the other hand you have psychos like Trevor, with very few redeeming qualities, I think it's quite difficult to keep him engaging for long periods without him having relatable or understandable motivations. Tough character to write as a protagonist.

[Donald Lov]

My theory is that the people behind the writing of GTA are the kind of people that wanted to make films early on in their life, but later happened to find themselves in the gaming industry, thereby using the medium to fulfill their initial aspirations. As soon as Rockstar got their hands on serious money, technology and more production time, they immediately started veering towards the cinema-like presentation and dramaturgy. I'd argue it's what they always wanted to do, and the straightforwardness, coolness and simplicity of the 3d era was more of a happy accident caused by inferior tecnology, tighter schedules and lesser money amount.

[unkown2345]

Easiest way to solve this is to have a character develop from good to bad, like Michael Corleone in The Godfather, maybe in the prologue he works a sucker common man job and later is pulled into the life of crime and eventually becomes a kingpin in the end.

[E Revere]

Any type of protagonist can work well. The only thing that matters is having good writing. So no GTA V trio. I'm more concerned about having characters be from more innovative backgrounds. 'Cause I'd be lying if I didn't say they're getting a little linear. Let's have a protagonist be come from somewhere no one ever thought of. This might happen in the next game if they play the female protaognist right.

[.Ryan.]

7 hours ago, The Time Ranger said:

I see where you're coming from, I get the appeal of having a strong no nonsense protagonist like Tommy. But for me I like the more complex, morally grey character, it's an interesting mix, a guy like Niko or Johnny, they do heinous things and are by no means good people yet they have a softer side, Niko loves his cousin and cares for Bernie and Kate, Johnny is wrapped around Ashley's finger, they draw you in with their loves and good points yet they disgust you with their actions, it creates a love/hate complex with the character. The criminal or tough guy with a good heart is a common trope in the media, like Omar in The Wire or Ray Donovan. 

 

At times it can become an archtype, but it's needed at times to create an interest or bond almost with the character. If you don't care about the character it's hard to be drawn to the story. On the other hand you have psychos like Trevor, with very few redeeming qualities, I think it's quite difficult to keep him engaging for long periods without him having relatable or understandable motivations. Tough character to write as a protagonist.

 

Couldn't agree more. 

 

When I think about a lot of my favourite video protagonists they tend to be in the morally grey realm. I know deep down they're not necessarily good people like you, I or anyone else (in the sense we're not criminals), but they don't always have to be rotten to to the core either. 

 

The thing I like about guys like Niko, Johnny, Arthur etc is despite some of the bad things they do I can connect and relate to them on other levels. Then again I still have a soft spot for guys like Tommy who are mostly about business without necessarily being morally grey yet convey just enough charisma and charm to still be likeable.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Algonquin Assassin

[Cutter De Blanc]

I never found CJ to be particularly morally conflicted

 

He always seemed real comfortable boosting cars and killing people 

 

His conflictions in missions never seemed to be moral ones, they seemed to stem more from self interest than anything else.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Cutter De Blanc

[Comrade Monke]

6 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

I never found CJ to be particularly morally conflicted

 

He always seemed real comfortable boosting cars and killing people 

 

His conflictions in missions never seemed to be moral ones, they seemed to stem more from self interest than anything else.

Damn bro you got the whole squad laughing 

[Jeansowaty]

Me personally I've been writing many GTA storylines and I don't really reckon in any that I wrote (or helped at writing) the protag wanted to exactly leave crime per se. Let's see:

 

3D era:

-one guy sticks up people to get money for his sick sister and gets consumed by jealousy due to his best friend joining the Families, whereas he starts working for the Ballas in response

-one guy inherits the leadership of his gang and is forced to defend his organization from rivals

-one guy is a capo of his crime family and tries to make sure other rival families don't take over their assets

-one guy decides to avenge his fallen brother on a Max Payne-esque mission

-one guy uses the current power vacuum in the city's crime to uprise his fallen crime family

-one guy is caught up in an internal conflict of a crime family he literally married himself into 

-I also took the liberty to rewrite the Frosted Winter mod story by Beginit/Pistukas with Joey as the protag. In my rewrite, which is set a little earlier, Joey deals with his ever growing paranoia and attempts to keep the Leones afloat, with mixed results. 

 

HD era:

-one guy is an alcoholic, brother-like figure to his comrades in arms and his addictions and easy going nature bring him into trouble

-one guy is a raging steroid addicted gang OG who learns brute force and power aren't the way to lead things

-one guy tries to find his own place in the city, comes from a poor background and just tries to survive

 

I am not a fan of protags that are brute assholes who don't respect anyone, but instead I prefer a protag who is balanced. Has strengths and weaknesses. Has morals, but can also be a hypocrite. As Sam Lake said about Max Payne: "If you have a strong protagonist, you can put him into any situation and it will work."

Edited September 18, 2022 by Jeansowaty

[Zello]

f*ck morals we need a bad guy

 

[LowTierDude]

I love games like Vice City and Saints Row 1 and 2 for this very reason. The protagonists in those games don't juggle around with questions about morality or criminal life because they are by nature ambitious, cunning and bloodthirsty criminals who have no qualms about getting their hands dirty, which is apt for games that revolve around gangs and organized crime.

 

These sort of games are ultimately a power fantasy for many people so unless it's written extremely well (as was the case for games like GTA 4, Mafia 2 and RDR2) shoehorning tales about ethics and morality can come off as insincere and preachy and only serve to reinforce that pervasive feeling of ludonarrative dissonance.

Edited September 26, 2022 by sabitsuki

[KingAJ032304]

On 9/14/2022 at 5:16 PM, The Tracker said:

This has been my dream idea of a GTA protagonist ever since GTA V came out;

 

GTA VI's protagonist has to be like Vito Escaletta from Mafia II, someone that doesn't necessarily enjoys being a criminal, but opts to be one as a resource to earn a living easier and provide for himself (Or even his family is he has any), no complaints, no regrets, just pick ups his gun whenever is necessary to maintain his position in bussiness. It's up to him is he decides to get powerful in long run, but he isn't getting out of that life any time soon. It's just another profession for him. 

Can I give a fairly thorough explanation as to why I feel this wouldn’t work for a GTA game?

[Krymefull]

 

On 9/13/2022 at 4:39 PM, Comrade Monke said:

This is why Tommy Vercetti or Toni Cipriani are the perfect protagonists.

They are confident, they have a powerful character, they don't care about much other than themselves and whoever's deemed "alright" by them, and they intimidate everyone into giving them what they want because they are big criminals.

NGL chief; Tommy and Toni were f*cking boring. The former is a basic run-of-the-mill archetype for a BAMF character while the latter is a generic as all hell Italian-American mobster who just happens to be the lead protagonist in a GTA game. They didn't interest me in any sense of the world and I couldn't give less of a f*ck about them.

Edited January 27, 2024 by AnythingGoner

[Akaviri]

I'd like to see the inverse -- a nice guy with a moral compass that gradually turns into a murderous asshole after being screwed over too many times. After all, that's the kind of fantasy we all have at work from time to time. Something akin to Fight Club and Breaking Bad.

 

Start off your career in crime by killing your cheating wife, embezzling business partner or abusive boss. Blow up your apartment and start over with a self destructive alter ego.

[The Tracker]

11 hours ago, KingAJ032304 said:

Can I give a fairly thorough explanation as to why I feel this wouldn’t work for a GTA game?

 

Shoah, why not

[universetwisters]

9 hours ago, AnythingGoner said:

VCS and IV showed that you can have a fun and engaging gameplay while telling a good and heartfelt story.

Idk I may be biased because I know Vic dies at the start of VC and his entire empire building crap is moot but his story was kinda mid. Yea he started as a good guy who was only committing crime to pay for his brother’s medical bills but we never really see the results of that. With all the money Vic was pulling in with his crap you’d expect him to have got Pete his medical sh*t sorted out (unless Pete is the million dollar man and had to be rebuilt into a cyborg or whatever it is). If he wants to cry and go “wah wah wah I don’t wanna commit crime anymore” that’s fine but at least show that it was worth it in the end (or that despite all of our hard work, Pete died on the operating table with no fault of our own idk)

[Akaviri]

2 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Idk I may be biased because I know Vic dies at the start of VC and his entire empire building crap is moot but his story was kinda mid. Yea he started as a good guy who was only committing crime to pay for his brother’s medical bills but we never really see the results of that. With all the money Vic was pulling in with his crap you’d expect him to have got Pete his medical sh*t sorted out (unless Pete is the million dollar man and had to be rebuilt into a cyborg or whatever it is). If he wants to cry and go “wah wah wah I don’t wanna commit crime anymore” that’s fine but at least show that it was worth it in the end (or that despite all of our hard work, Pete died on the operating table with no fault of our own idk)

Maybe the asthma thing was simply a jab at the absurdity of American healthcare. You need to make millions in coke money to keep up without insurance.

[universetwisters]

Just now, Akaviri said:

Maybe the asthma thing was simply a jab at the absurdity of American healthcare. You need to make millions in coke money to keep up without insurance.

In the 1980s? With all the money they were bringing in? Big doubt. Did they even mention anywhere within the story that they sent the money to Pete? Or did that whole storyline/motivation get buried as the game picked up momentum?

 

If they said that Pete had a brand new mysterious disease that shared it’s name with a diet candy that was on the market at the time and they were building a drug empire to afford finding a cure for it, that’d be more believable than “I can’t believe I have to become the largest pimp in the city just to pay for some f*ckin inhalers”

[Akaviri]

13 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

In the 1980s? With all the money they were bringing in? Big doubt. Did they even mention anywhere within the story that they sent the money to Pete? Or did that whole storyline/motivation get buried as the game picked up momentum?

 

If they said that Pete had a brand new mysterious disease that shared it’s name with a diet candy that was on the market at the time and they were building a drug empire to afford finding a cure for it, that’d be more believable than “I can’t believe I have to become the largest pimp in the city just to pay for some f*ckin inhalers”

They should have had Vic owe a fortune to three different baby mommas for child support and alimony settlements, along with the trumped up lawyer fees to Ken Rosenberg for representing him in divorce court.

[DUNK512]

1 minute ago, Akaviri said:

They should have had Vic owe a fortune to three different baby mommas for child support and alimony settlements, along with the trumped up lawyer fees to Ken Rosenberg for representing him in divorce court.

R* should hire you, you could be the next dan Houser! so funny and satirical!

[Akaviri]

32 minutes ago, DUNK512 said:

R* should hire you, you could be the next dan Houser! so funny and satirical!

That is some high praises, friend! Thank you.

 

I got a heck of a lot more ideas over at

Liberty City 1978 if you're up for a fun read.

[universetwisters]

1 hour ago, Akaviri said:

They should have had Vic owe a fortune to three different baby mommas for child support and alimony settlements, along with the trumped up lawyer fees to Ken Rosenberg for representing him in divorce court.

This 100% would've been a much better reason to commit crimes than "wah wah wah my brother isn't the best at breathing"

[Dementia]

I want the protagonist to play as the antagonist for once.