Sequel

[Comrade Monke]

To fellow GTA 3 fans, what would you think of a sequel with Claude again? One that featured stuff from the beta and had a new story, Claude's actions must have changed the city's underworld significantly. Plus it can explore Claude's personality more. 

[Martin4004]

I would say they could make a remake out of GTA 3 by adding all beta/alpha stuff and slightly (just slightly) improving the graphics

[universetwisters]

imo it should take place in a whole new city. Claude burnt many bridges and doesn't have many friends left. I think Ray is the only employer who isn't dead or hates his guts?

This old concept would be hell of a great sequel though, if Vice City went this direction instead of the 80s it'd be a good compromise imo:

 

 

 

[Comrade Monke]

1 hour ago, universetwisters said:

imo it should take place in a whole new city. Claude burnt many bridges and doesn't have many friends left. I think Ray is the only employer who isn't dead or hates his guts?

This old concept would be hell of a great sequel though, if Vice City went this direction instead of the 80s it'd be a good compromise imo:

 

 

 

Man really good concept, too bad he didn't continue it. Would be cool making Vercetti an ally against the Leones and Cartel.

 

[Pistol Bobcat]

I've always loved the idea of a sequel which slowly drives Claude out of Liberty City (guy has more enemies than Richard Nixon) meeting Tommy, eventually meeting CJ, and Liberty City slowly turning into something similar to the shady setting of GTA 2 with Donald Love and the mysterious Oriental Man running the Zaibatsu Corporation as a new antagonistic force, explaining why Donald Love suddenly disappeared.

 

GTA III had quite a few intriguing loose ends like the mystery package the Cartel were after, that open box on the roof and the oriental guy. There's been so much post GTA III fanfiction I'll have to find them again

Edited July 28 by Fox in a Box

[Comrade Monke]

19 minutes ago, Fox in a Box said:

I've always loved the idea of a sequel which slowly drives Claude out of Liberty City (guy has more enemies than Richard Nixon) meeting Tommy, eventually meeting CJ, and Liberty City slowly turning into something similar to the shady setting of GTA 2 with Donald Love and the mysterious Oriental Man running the Zaibatsu Corporation as a new antagonistic force, explaining why Donald Love suddenly disappeared.

 

GTA III had quite a few intriguing loose ends like the mystery package the Cartel were after, that open box on the roof and the oriental guy. There's been so much post GTA III fanfiction I'll have to find them again

Yeah tbh all those unsolved mysteries really makes me think they were planning some sort of direct sequel/ expansion pack but made Vice City Instead, not that I mind, Vice City is my favorite rockstar game and Tommy my favorite rockstar protagonist, but it would have been nice if they also made a direct sequel to GTA 3 along with Vice City. Infact even today a GTA 3 sequel has potential.

 

 

Imagine a Claude- Tommy team up, would have been cool af

Edited July 28 by Comrade Monke
Grammer mistake

[Sombra]

Obviously a sequel for the events of III would be the main focal point of discussion when speaking on Claude as a character and seeing what transpired after the events of III, however I think a prequel to Claude would be just as cool. Obviously canonically Claude's history was touched upon in San Andreas with him owning the garage in Doherty, but there's nothing that really gives him depth or a backstory per say. Whilst not that deep of a history, atleast with Vice City Rockstar provided enough of a history for Tommy that you understand his reasoning and motivations; childhood friend of Sonny, part of the Forellis and served 15 years in jail etc. Same applies to CJ; left San Andreas and the gang lifestyle behind after the death of his brother, only returning for his mothers death. With Claude, there really isn't anything to point to his motivations or actions; we know he owned a run down garage and competed in street races, then met Catalina and embarked on a robbing spree - what pushed him to this point? Where was he from originally? The obvious question of why doesn't he speak? Whilst for the most part I'm not a fan of canonically rewriting history to fit the narrative (see: every FnF movie in the last 5 years), I think Rockstar are in a unique position as a lot of the history players would be interested in simply does not exist.

[Comrade Monke]

6 minutes ago, Sombra said:

Obviously a sequel for the events of III would be the main focal point of discussion when speaking on Claude as a character and seeing what transpired after the events of III, however I think a prequel to Claude would be just as cool. Obviously canonically Claude's history was touched upon in San Andreas with him owning the garage in Doherty, but there's nothing that really gives him depth or a backstory per say. Whilst not that deep of a history, atleast with Vice City Rockstar provided enough of a history for Tommy that you understand his reasoning and motivations; childhood friend of Sonny, part of the Forellis and served 15 years in jail etc. Same applies to CJ; left San Andreas and the gang lifestyle behind after the death of his brother, only returning for his mothers death. With Claude, there really isn't anything to point to his motivations or actions; we know he owned a run down garage and competed in street races, then met Catalina and embarked on a robbing spree - what pushed him to this point? Where was he from originally? The obvious question of why doesn't he speak? Whilst for the most part I'm not a fan of canonically rewriting history to fit the narrative (see: every FnF movie in the last 5 years), I think Rockstar are in a unique position as a lot of the history players would be interested in simply does not exist.

I would also like a confirmation of whether Claude and Claude from GTA 2 are the same, rockstar has answered that probably but would be nice getting a definitive answer.

 

I imagine Claude probably has a psychological reason rather than a physical one for his muteness. I would also like for a sequel to explore Claude's personality more. It would be interesting what ways they could come up with to explore his personality without having him verbalize it.

[Sombra]

The first is hard to answer definitively but here's some facts that may help you out. GTA2's time period is left rather ambiguous; the old website for the game used to specify it as being set in 2013, but the game itself made references to it being set in 1999, the same year it released. If you pay attention during the intro for GTA2, either the police or Zaibatsu pull up a file on Claude, which shows his age as 28. If the game was indeed set in 2013, that'd give him a birth year of 1985 making him seven years old during the events of San Andreas which obviously isn't plausible. If it is indeed set in 1999, that would give him a birth year of 1971 which would make him 22 during the events of San Andreas and 30 during III, which is definitely possible. Rockstar alluded to this in a 2011 interview, leaving us hanging with the tidbit of "Surname may or may not be Speed". Perhaps an oversight on Rockstar's part, but about 2 years prior they released a "what character are you" quiz through Facebook which definitively said that the III era Claude was named Claude Speed - on a technicality, yes, they're the same character but then you run into other glaring issues like the fact GTA2 Claude was shown speaking and displaying emotions which the III rendition never really does. Maybe they are the same character, maybe they're two different renditions of the same character, nobody really knows.

 

The second was also answered by Rockstar in the same 2011 interview I alluded to earlier:

 

"It may now seem obvious that people should all talk in games, but this was not necessarily the case in 2001, certainly not in an open world game. We were making up a lot of procedures as we went along, and we decided that the NPCs (Non Playable Characters) should talk and we would have to figure out how to make them talk (using motion captured cutscenes, something that had never really been done before, at least not on the scale we were doing it). So we decided that the game’s protagonist would not talk, partly to aid people identifying with him, but mostly because we had so many other problems to solve and this did not seem like a major issue. We started to discuss introducing a talking lead character when working on Vice City, but it was a lot of work. While the structure of GTA3 may seem obvious or natural now, and the use of cutscenes made in the game’s engine that look and feel like the game may seem simple and easy, it really was not the case back in 2001 when we had to figure out all of these things for the first time. Oh and in San Andreas, CJ calls Claude a mute because he does not talk and CJ finds this unnerving. "

[Comrade Monke]

14 minutes ago, Sombra said:

The first is hard to answer definitively but here's some facts that may help you out. GTA2's time period is left rather ambiguous; the old website for the game used to specify it as being set in 2013, but the game itself made references to it being set in 1999, the same year it released. If you pay attention during the intro for GTA2, either the police or Zaibatsu pull up a file on Claude, which shows his age as 28. If the game was indeed set in 2013, that'd give him a birth year of 1985 making him seven years old during the events of San Andreas which obviously isn't plausible. If it is indeed set in 1999, that would give him a birth year of 1971 which would make him 22 during the events of San Andreas and 30 during III, which is definitely possible. Rockstar alluded to this in a 2011 interview, leaving us hanging with the tidbit of "Surname may or may not be Speed". Perhaps an oversight on Rockstar's part, but about 2 years prior they released a "what character are you" quiz through Facebook which definitively said that the III era Claude was named Claude Speed - on a technicality, yes, they're the same character but then you run into other glaring issues like the fact GTA2 Claude was shown speaking and displaying emotions which the III rendition never really does. Maybe they are the same character, maybe they're two different renditions of the same character, nobody really knows.

 

The second was also answered by Rockstar in the same 2011 interview I alluded to earlier:

 

"It may now seem obvious that people should all talk in games, but this was not necessarily the case in 2001, certainly not in an open world game. We were making up a lot of procedures as we went along, and we decided that the NPCs (Non Playable Characters) should talk and we would have to figure out how to make them talk (using motion captured cutscenes, something that had never really been done before, at least not on the scale we were doing it). So we decided that the game’s protagonist would not talk, partly to aid people identifying with him, but mostly because we had so many other problems to solve and this did not seem like a major issue. We started to discuss introducing a talking lead character when working on Vice City, but it was a lot of work. While the structure of GTA3 may seem obvious or natural now, and the use of cutscenes made in the game’s engine that look and feel like the game may seem simple and easy, it really was not the case back in 2001 when we had to figure out all of these things for the first time. Oh and in San Andreas, CJ calls Claude a mute because he does not talk and CJ finds this unnerving. "

I know why they decided to not give him a voice, but in-universe lore wise there's definitely some explanation we haven't got.

 

Also how is Claude in GTA 3 emotionless? The whole story is the result of his dedication and anger towards getting revenge on Catalina. He does show other emotions in non-verbal ways. He is shocked when Kenji yells at him, he also seems to like Salvatore up until the mafia bertrays him. He seems enthusiastic when embarking on Donald Love's mission. He is shown to at least somewhat care about Maria since he saves her from the cartel. In other times he looks pissed or even extremely angry like for example when he meets Catalina and Miguel in the construction site and he leaves Miguel to be tortured. He also seems slightly annoyed when he has to wait for Luigi to show up during one of the early mission cutscenes. Don't forget the green text during "grand Theft aero" where he is clearly thinking to himself. He displays many emotions in non-verbal ways. Also his muteness could be selective, he makes some "Oh!" sounds during gameplay when he is hurt, it doesn't mean he can't speak at all. You can also compare Claude's GTA 2 movie appearance and the GTA 3 Claude model, they look almost the same.

[Martin4004]

On 7/28/2022 at 5:15 PM, Comrade Monke said:

I would also like a confirmation of whether Claude and Claude from GTA 2 are the same, rockstar has answered that probably but would be nice getting a definitive answer.

I mean, Rockstar North has already confirmed that they are not by providing us the rule of universes which they stick to to this day.

To make a long story short, some characters tend to cross universes, but they are not doing this in a physical form. GTA 2D era character can appear in 3D or HD universe in two ways: as a reference or completely different person not related to its 2D counterpart. As you can see from this statement, brands/radios can be used in every universe, except their story/information cannot be connected. For example, Cluckin' Bell can exist in 3D and HD eras, but there are various differences between them - such as that 3D Cluckin' Bell was founded in a different year than HD Cluckin' Bell. Hell, even 3D San Andreas state doesn't equal HD San Andreas state. Yes, there are a few characters (universal characters) that are an exception to this rule, be it Lazlow Jones, Fernando Martinez, and so on. And yes, both Claude Speed from GTA 2 and Claude from GTA 3 share the first name and appearance, but it doesn't mean they are the same person. Moreover, Claude is 29 years old during GTA 3 which we know thanks to the Holy Grail of GTA III, that is the Design Doc (here's the video of showing approximately 90% of the whole document content ->https://youtu.be/qUI0moGiNuw)

 

And about Claude's surname, Rockstar North was right. Nobody knows GTA 3 Claude's surname and it could be Speed, but not necessarily. That's really it.

 

 

 

Edited July 29 by Martin4004

[Comrade Monke]

3 minutes ago, Martin4004 said:

I mean, Rockstar North has already confirmed that they are not by providing us the rule of universes which they stick to to this day.

To make a long story short, some characters tend to cross universes, but they are not doing this in a physical form. GTA 2D era character can appear in 2D or HD universe in two ways: as a reference or completely different person not related to its 2D counterpart. As you can see from this statement, brands/radios can be used in every universe, except their story/information cannot be connected. For example, Cluckin' Bell can exist in 3D and HD eras, but there are various differences between them - such as that 3D Cluckin' Bell was founded in a different year than HD Cluckin' Bell. Hell, even 3D San Andreas state doesn't equal HD San Andreas state. Yes, there are a few characters (universal characters) that are an exception to this rule, be it Lazlow Jones, Fernando Martinez, and so on. And yes, both Claude Speed from GTA 2 and Claude from GTA 3 share the first name and appearance, but it doesn't mean they are the same person. Moreover, Claude is 29 years old during GTA 3 which we know thanks to the Holy Grail of GTA III, that is the Design Doc (here's the video of showing approximately 90% of the whole document content ->https://youtu.be/qUI0moGiNuw)

 

And about Claude's surname, Rockstar North was right. Nobody knows GTA 3 Claude's surname and it could be Speed, but not necessarily. That's really it.

 

 

 

The design doc is not up to date with everything. They also call Salvatore Frankie and Maria's backstory is mentioned as her coming to liberty city to study or smth. 

Also rockstar has hinted that Claude and Claude Speed are "probably" the same character. 

 

Quote

Probably. It seems very likely but it’s also possible that there are just a lot of angry silent car thieves called Claude out there.

https://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/ak14o88381o725/asked-answered-max-payne-3-la-noire-red-dead-and-more.html

(Source)

 

Don't forget the "Surname may or may not be Speed" thing.

 

And just like rockstar said, the universes are just different interpretations, doesn't mean that characters or events don't exist or didn't happen in all universes, they just might not fit with a certain interpretation therefore they don't show up. Exceptions are El Burro, or like you mentioned, Lazlow.

[Martin4004]

2 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

The design doc is not up to date with everything. They also call Salvatore Frankie and Maria's backstory is mentioned as her coming to liberty city to study or smth. 

Also rockstar has hinted that Claude and Claude Speed are "probably" the same character. 

 

https://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/ak14o88381o725/asked-answered-max-payne-3-la-noire-red-dead-and-more.html

(Source)

 

Don't forget the "Surname may or may not be Speed" thing.

 

And just like rockstar said, the universes are just different interpretations, doesn't mean that characters or events don't exist or didn't happen in all universes, they just might not fit with a certain interpretation therefore they don't show up. Exceptions are El Burro, or like you mentioned, Lazlow.

Certainly, the Design Doc is not up to date since it was created up to like the end of December 2000 in game development, but it provides numerous details that you would not get from the game itself, such as the aforementioned character age, little backstory and more importantly a variety of changes in the storyline, vehicles, etc. Like I said it's a Holy Grail to GTA III fanbase, especially to modders that are working on the alpha/beta version of GTA 3 (GTA 3D). And to be quite honest with you, I think that everything mentioned in this document is far more canon than in the final version. I do have hope that one day we will be able to experience those changes for example in GTA 3D.

I've checked the source you sent regarding that Claude and Claude Speed are probably the same character. Well, "probably" doesn't mean "they are", it's not 100%. We know that they share a first name and appearance, but according to the rule of the universes which I mentioned before, they cannot be the same person unless Rockstar North would confirm this in a justified way. But frankly speaking, I highly doubt it since it would collide with the rule of universes and make a huge mess in the canons. 

Again, I am not saying there can't be Claude Speed in the 3D or HD universe. It can be, but it won't be the same Claude Speed, it will be a completely different person not related to GTA 2 events whatsoever.

[Comrade Monke]

1 hour ago, Martin4004 said:

Certainly, the Design Doc is not up to date since it was created up to like the end of December 2000 in game development, but it provides numerous details that you would not get from the game itself, such as the aforementioned character age, little backstory and more importantly a variety of changes in the storyline, vehicles, etc. Like I said it's a Holy Grail to GTA III fanbase, especially to modders that are working on the alpha/beta version of GTA 3 (GTA 3D). And to be quite honest with you, I think that everything mentioned in this document is far more canon than in the final version. I do have hope that one day we will be able to experience those changes for example in GTA 3D.

 

Wait are people really making a GTA 3 mod that adds all beta content? Can you provide me some info or a link? I am a GTA 3 fan (I would say it's my second favorite after Vice City) and it would be really interesting experiencing this mod.