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I f*cking hate Michael, why do people love him so much?


Comrade Monke
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billiejoearmstrong8
23 hours ago, Ryo256 said:


 

 

You sure you wanna rain on the parade of GTA V narrative defence here? (Because last time I checked you liked it when it was praised) Because I got something.......heavy to say too about Trevor and I think you can guess what it is......

I'm not criticising the narrative, I just don't think Michael is a good person. He remains a backstabber/potential backstabber to the end but I don't have a problem with that. When taking all possible endings into account Trevor turns out to have the most morals of the three (albeit rather twisted ones), whereas both Michael and his mentoree Franklin will sell the others out at the drop of a hat, and I find that kind of interesting. Even in ending C the game ends without ever demostrating that Michael wouldn't still backstab Trevor if he had reason to, and I'm fine with that because anything that isn't total fairytale in that ending is a plus lol. When I say Michael isn't cool or isn't a good person even at the end of the game I don't mean it as criticism of the writing, I enjoy those things about him. 

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42 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I'm not criticising the narrative, I just don't think Michael is a good person. He remains a backstabber/potential backstabber to the end but I don't have a problem with that. When taking all possible endings into account Trevor turns out to have the most morals of the three (albeit rather twisted ones), whereas both Michael and his mentoree Franklin will sell the others out at the drop of a hat, and I find that kind of interesting. Even in ending C the game ends without ever demostrating that Michael wouldn't still backstab Trevor if he had reason to, and I'm fine with that because anything that isn't total fairytale in that ending is a plus lol. When I say Michael isn't cool or isn't a good person even at the end of the game I don't mean it as criticism of the writing, I enjoy those things about him. 


Well yes but that was not what I was looking at. When you highlighted that part of Michael (and also acknowledged the major issue of Franklin's loyalty as well that I was going to highlight eventually) you kinda ......sunk the boat that the Michael fans were building up to. I was generally trying to keep that genie in the bottle but now that you have entered the more deeper part of the discussion, I would throw out a similar issue. Not so much an issue but rather a different perspective, as you said, Trevor seems more "moral" if you look at loyalty as the major virtue in GTA series but on other hand, Trevor also embodies most of everything we go against in the series, he's controlling and abusive (like Tenpenny), he's rage-triggered (like Faustin), a sexual predator (like Vlad), irresponsible and chaotic (like Billy) etc. That's excluding other extreme problems of his like drug abuse, human trafficking, terrorism, uncalled hostile business takeovers and cannibalism.

 

Problem is, that when you have someone like that walking in front of you, from the perspective of Michael (or any GTA player before V), you would want either to eliminate him or run away (in which case, Michael choose the latter option but we both know what Niko would have likely done). Michael's real problem, if you want to know from a criminal perspective, was that he was soft. People like Tommy and Niko would have cut off people like Trevor and Brad in a clear way but Michael was weak and that weakness costs him by either Trevor manipulating him (in a same way as he did) or him trying to resolve the problem which he mostly labels as a mistake rather than IMO, a decent action. Because IMO Michael is needed to ask forgiveness from Trevor as much as Niko needs to ask from Faustin, in both cases, I would argue for the sake of this point, is none.  

While I know you have a different perspective (or I assume you do because it be awkward and funny that I wrote all this for nothing if you already agree), I do buy into Michael's koolaid that Trevor is a monster. From that perspective, running away from Trevor is not a crime, it's a virtue in my book. Trevor is a tragic character yes but he's a sick puppy that needs to be put down if you understand all of his things he put himself through and as well as others, it's a mercy killing for everyone. Problem is that people only hold Michael accountable after he betrayed him, they don't really think about what he was going through when he was loyal because tolerating people like Trevor and Brad is a big deal. Point is, that just like with every GTA protagonist, we play ball nicely with other characters until certain limits are crossed. But the GTA ritual demands exceution of the problem when said limits are crossed, not running away from it. Michael cared enough about Trevor not to put the bullet in him himself until Ending A and from my perspective, I think he did nothing wrong. Because Trevor breaks the morality plane altogether IMO and Michael finally did what needed to be done.

I can add more points but I think I have gone a little too long so I'll save them for when you finish your swing if you choose to take it.

 

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billiejoearmstrong8
25 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


Well yes but that was not what I was looking at. When you highlighted that part of Michael (and also acknowledged the major issue of Franklin's loyalty as well that I was going to make eventually) you kinda ......sunk the boat that the Michael fans were building up to. I was generally trying to keep that genie in the bottle but now that you have entered the more deeper part of the discussion, I would throw out a similar issue. Not so much an issue but rather a different perspective, as you said, Trevor seems more "moral" if you look at loyalty as the major virtue in GTA series but on other hand, Trevor also embodies most of everything we go against in the series, he's controlling and abusive (like Tenpenny), he's rage-triggered (like Faustin), a sexual predator (like Vlad), irresponsible and chaotic (like Billy) etc. That's excluding other extreme problems of his like drug abuse, human trafficking, terrorism, uncalled hostile business takeovers and cannibalism.

 

Problem is, that when you have someone like that walking in front of you, from the perspective of Michael (or any GTA player before V), you would want either to eliminate him or run away (in which case, Michael choose the latter option but we both know what Niko would have likely done). Michael's real problem, if you want to know from a criminal perspective, was that he was soft. People like Tommy and Niko would have cut off people like Trevor and Brad in a clear way but Michael was weak and that weakness costs him by either Trevor manipulating him (in a same way as he did) or him trying to resolve the problem which he mostly labels as a mistake rather than IMO, a decent action. Because IMO Michael is needed to ask forgiveness off Trevor as much as Niko needs to ask off Faustin, in both cases, I would argue for this sake of this point, is none.  

While I know you have a different perspective (or I assume you do because it be awkward and funny that I wrote all this for nothing if you already agree), I do buy into Michael's koolaid that Trevor is a monster. From that perspective, running away from Trevor is not a crime, it's a virtue in my book. Trevor is a tragic character yes but he's a sick puppy that needs to be put down if you understand all of his things he put himself through and as well as others, it's a mercy killing for everyone. Problem is that people only hold Michael accountable after he betrayed him, they don't really think about what he was going through when he was loyal because tolerating people like Trevor and Brad is a big deal. Point is, that just like with every GTA protagonist, we play ball nicely with other characters until certain limits are crossed. But the GTA ritual demands exceution of the problem when said limits are crossed, not running away from it. Michael cared enough about Trevor not to put the bullet in him himself until Ending A and from my perspective, I think he did nothing wrong. Because Trevor breaks the morality plane altogether IMO and Michael finally did what needed to be done.

I can add more points but I think I have gone a little too long so I'll save them for when you finish your swing if you choose to take it.

 

 

Great points, I agree with you that Michael does have good reasons to be wary of Trevor. And while Michael is the one who has wronged the other more, Trevor has done some bad stuff to him since he came back as well. But I think when it comes to the point that Michael has decided to finally do the "one last score" with Trevor that they'd always dreamed of, and Trevor has done plenty to redeem himself to him (ie coming back and saving his life), perhaps he could've been a little less ready and willing to sell him out/kill him again! Again I don't see it as a flaw from a narrative perspective because looking out for himself (and now especially looking out for his in much better shape family relationships) is just Michael's personality. But I feel like if Michael's going to choose to work with Trevor and socialise with him and he's really shown how loyal he is to Michael, to still have that cold an attitude to him is indicative of a backstabbing personality that really hasn't altered since he faked his death and screwed him over years before. I think the only way he grows is as a husband/father.

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1 minute ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

Great points, I agree with you that Michael does have good reasons to be wary of Trevor. And while Michael is the one who has wronged the other more, Trevor has done some bad stuff to him since he came back as well. But I think when it comes to the point that Michael has decided to finally do the "one last score" with Trevor that they'd always dreamed of, and Trevor has done plenty to redeem himself to him (ie coming back and saving his life), perhaps he could've been a little less ready and willing to sell him out/kill him! Again I don't see it as a flaw from a narrative perspective because looking out for himself (and now especially looking out for his in much better shape family relationships) is just Michael's personality. But I feel like if Michael's going to choose to work with Trevor and socialise with him and he's really shown how loyal he is to Michael, to still have that cold an attitude to him is indicative of a backstabbing personality that really hasn't altered since he faked his death and screwed the other over years before. I think the only way he grows is as a husband/father.


You have a point but certain points of mine must be kept in mind:

1. Trevor might redeem himself to Michael but in general, Trevor is still a walking problem that brings trouble as well. The IAA building raid would have been Michael's last ride with FIB if it hasn't been Trevor messing with Merryweather for no reason other than mere joy. Franklin makes the argument perfectly in Ending A, Trevor was gonna get everyone killed eventually. Which leads to my second point.


2. GTA series IMO demands that Trevor, for being as immoral and out of control he is, he should be put down. It's not a case of Michael and Trevor, it's a case of dealing with a uncontrollable self-harming sociopath that will not neogotiate (even Steve and Devin are willing to deal but Trevor is pure hedonist anarchist level problem if you listen to him in Ending C). 

 

3. Now you may argue that well by GTA series virtue, we should kill Michael too for being a traitor but the issue that Michael didn't betray a decent person, he betrayed Trevor (opposite of a decent person, sorry), he did not call Trevor back into his life, Trevor came and stuck his hand into the beehive and complained about being stung, his problem, not Michael's. And I think that Michael is remorseful for his backstabbing nature but he simply can't afford a Trevor, he simply can't and Trevor never makes it easier for him so you have deal with Trevor somehow, either to seek forgiveness, to go die to Franklin or kill him. Whatever case is, Trevor is a problem, that's what I'm focusing on, Trevor is the main conflict in GTA V from my perspective, even if it's not from others.  But if Michael did betray a decent person, did call Trevor back only to stab him again and was proud of his backstabbing, I would kill Michael without second thought but that's not the case. Trevor was digging his own grave and in Ending A, he succeeded. 

Conclusion: Even if Trevor is straight, helps Micheal and wants to be with him, it's not enough. He needs to acknowledge that his lifestyle does not give him the luxury of friends, let alone loyal ones. My conclusion is that Trevor is a walking self-destructive character that needs to fix himself rather than asking Michael to be sorry. But we both know, Trevor will never fix himself so there is only one solution.

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Comrade Monke
6 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


You have a point but certain points of mine must be kept in mind:

1. Trevor might redeem himself to Michael but in general, Trevor is still a walking problem that brings trouble as well. The IAA building raid would have been Michael's last ride with FIB if it hasn't been Trevor messing with Merryweather for no reason other than mere joy. Franklin makes the argument perfectly in Ending A, Trevor was gonna get everyone killed eventually. Which leads to my second point.


2. GTA series IMO demands that Trevor, for being as immoral and out of control he is, he should be put down. It's not a case of Michael and Trevor, it's a case of dealing with a uncontrollable self-harming sociopath that will not neogotiate (even Steve and Devin are willing to deal but Trevor is pure hedonist anarchist level problem if you listen to him in Ending C). 

 

3. Now you may argue that well by GTA series virtue, we should kill Michael too for being a traitor but the issue that Michael didn't betray a decent person, he betrayed Trevor (opposite of a decent person, sorry), he did not call Trevor back into his life, Trevor came and stuck his hand into the beehive and complained about being stung, his problem, not Michael's. And I think that Michael is remorseful for his backstabbing nature but he simply can't afford a Trevor, he simply can't and Trevor never makes it easier for him so you have deal with Trevor somehow, either to seek forgiveness, to go die to Franklin or kill him. Whatever case is, Trevor is a problem, that's what I'm focusing on, Trevor is the main conflict in GTA V from my perspective, even if it's not from others.  But if Michael did betray a decent person, did call Trevor back only to stab him again and was proud of his backstabbing, I would kill Michael without second thought but that's not the case. Trevor was digging his own grave and in Ending A, he succeeded. 

Conclusion: Even if Trevor is straight, helps Micheal and wants to be with him, it's not enough. He needs to acknowledge that his lifestyle does not give him the luxury of friends, let alone loyal ones. My conclusion is that Trevor is a walking self-destructive character that needs to fix himself rather than asking Michael to be sorry. But we both know, Trevor will never fix himself so there is only one solution.

The third point has a flaw: it is shown that Michael did indeed plan to betray Trevor again. Ending A even sees Michael team up with Franklin to betray Trevor again. And during ending B Michael even offers Franklin that they go and kill Trevor together.

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12 minutes ago, Comrade Monke said:

The third point has a flaw: it is shown that Michael did indeed plan to betray Trevor again. Ending A even sees Michael team up with Franklin to betray Trevor again. And during ending B Michael even offers Franklin that they go and kill Trevor together.


Yes, but why do we need to kill Trevor. That's the point I'm making. Because both Michael and Franklin agrees that if they don't kill Trevor then there is going to be a problem, in the same way as Niko agreed that Faustin needed to die.

When you cross a limit in GTA series, protagonists are given signals to kill the anatgonist. From that argument, if Trevor is like Faustin, then you must kill him but that is on the condition that you agree that Trevor has crossed the limit and in my book, he has shown every villainous trait in GTA series (exception is that he didn't show those traits to Michael/Franklin but to everyone else, Trevor is Faustin and much worse).

Edit: @Comrade Monke Also, this:

4iflVX4.gif

Is not Michael's doing. Trevor came to him. Trevor guilt-trip Michael to go robbing with him. Otherwise Michael was minding his own business:

BuWm5xf.gif

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Comrade Monke
13 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


Yes, but why do we need to kill Trevor. That's the point I'm making. Because both Michael and Franklin agrees that if they don't kill Trevor then there is going to be a problem, in the same way as Niko agreed that Faustin needed to die.

When you cross a limit in GTA series, protagonists are given signals to kill the anatgonist. From that argument, if Trevor is like Faustin, then you must kill him but that is on the condition that you agree that Trevor has crossed the limit and in my book, he has shown every villainous trait in GTA series (exception is that he didn't show those traits to Michael/Franklin but to everyone else, Trevor is Faustin and much worse).

I keep seeing people calling Trevor the most evil. But from what I remember he is actually rarely seen killing innocents and the only time he does is when he delivers them to the altruist cult (and even that is under the players control, it never happens in the storyline). There's also no proof that he is a cannibal. He is also the most loyal and treats his friends and family (mother) with significant care despite his aggressiveness. Michael on the other hand, is an egoistic person, who is abusive towards his children (smashing his son's tv for no apparent reason), screams to his wife, lies to Trevor and constantly suggests framing him or killing him, uses Franklin for his own purposes, and is more annoyed at the fact he lost his boat rather than worrying if his son is alright. So who really crossed the limits? Idk but to me Michael's development seems to set him up as the final ultimate antagonist rather than Trevor (who is similar to 3D era protagonists, a somewhat aggressive but still loyal heart of gold criminal) or Steve and Devin (who aren't particularly evil anyway).

 

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1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

I keep seeing people calling Trevor the most evil. But from what I remember he is actually rarely seen killing innocents and the only time he does is when he delivers them to the altruist cult (and even that is under the players control, it never happens in the storyline). There's also no proof that he is a cannibal. He is also the most loyal and treats his friends and family (mother) with significant care despite his aggressiveness.


I see the problem. The issue is not that Michael sucks, it seems the issue is that you don't realize just how horrible Trevor is and the game intends you to know this.

1. He is straight up abusive to people who are loyal to him, remember Ron and Wade? He punches Wade even if when he said he wouldn't. Wade is also mentally slow so it is technically Trevor beating up mentally ill people.

2. He constantly scares Ron with threat and even forces him to give up his part of the cut in Nervous Ron mission. Ron is an extremely loyal friend to Trevor and this is how he is treated.
3. He kills Johnny K, the bikers, Aztecas and Hilbillies for no reason, they were all non-hostile parties in the area but Trevor wanted more control so he just started a war.

4. He comes to Los Santos and forcefully invade the house of Floyd, very very innocent person.

5. One of the switch to Trevor has him waking up next to Floyd as he is left crying, implying that he probably did molest him.

6. Infact Trevor shouting sexual abuses to friends and strangers is quite common.

7. Floyd is a good host who is scared by Trevor and in Scouting the Port Mission, he lefts Floyd to be beaten up by bunch of Merryweather goons and does not help at all.

8. Trevor plays a role in the death of Floyd and his girlfriend Debra, both are very innocent by GTA standard.

9. Physically abuses Shame or Fame employee because he is too impatient to find Tracey.

10. Forcefully get into Franklin's friend circle in Hood Safari even though both him and Lamar do not want him there.

11. Takes over the Strip Club and kills the owner (innocent) and stuffs his body in the fridge.
12. While Atruist Cult is optional, it is part of the 100% in a way and considering it has cutscenes it is, it can't be ignored. Trevor is perfectly okay with the cult, it is okay with supplying them people and never stops them (and it's expected because he's a immoral character) even though they are rumors that they eat people.
13. In Scouting the Pateto Bay, Trevor offers Michael a bowl of stew which has an eyelid which Trevor says is "probably" not human "unless" it was that gas station job. So apparently Trevor has no real issue eating human flesh.

14. In Packman, Franklin confirms that Trevor does "dig on man's meat" when the latter says that he doesn't bite.
15. In Ending A, Michael confirms that the cannibalism part was true.
16. He also has tendency to lie about things too, he doesn't clearly explain the problem behind Hilbiliies, he said that they stole business off, not that he killed almost all of their brothers just because a Chinese contract picked them over him.

17. His main argument in the exile cutscenes is that Michael isn't immoral enough. He needs to kill, rob and lie more like Trevor apparently.
18. Trevor also picks fight with Merryweather and even tries to steal a superweapon to sell to the Chinese, both are terroist level acts and even Lester warns that if they go through with the latter, Trevor and everyone who knows him will be in danger. Trevor hestitates to gives it up until Michael convinces him that he will find another score. Trevor holds him to that especially since he was so close to accepting the superweapon deal and make everyone live under massive security control because Trevor is just that dangerous of a criminal.
19. Michael would have been freed from FIB deal after IAA raid if Trevor had not attacked Merryweather several times for no reason other than that he likes it. He is making Michael and Franklin lives difficult just by being himself.

Trevor is probably the most immoral character we had since Toni. To say anything less, is to insult his character becasuse the selling point of Trevor is that he is out-of-control sociopath that cares nothing about rules. Even if he was tamed, he is still Faustin, Tenpenny and Billy level antagonist. Enough reason to put a bullet in him even if you don't like Michael.
 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

Michael on the other hand, is an egoistic person, who is abusive towards his children (smashing his son's tv for no apparent reason)


Anger issues but he still shows much control. Trevor beats up his own loyal subordinates and yells sex abuses and death threats (Wade, Ron and Floyd) for his own amusement, not even due to anger issues, just his own amusement. And also I don't really blame him for Jimmy though since Jimmy actually drugged his own father and left him on the side of the road.

 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

screams to his wife

Actually.......I don't remember him screaming at her, they usually just scream at each other. So, especially since Amanda has shown to cheat with a dozen men by now, I don't really blame him that much but it is a concern but nothing at the level of Trevor though, which caused the death of the innocent like Floyd.
 

 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

lies to Trevor


Trevor lies too sadly. Like I said the whole Hilbiliies problem? Lies to both Michael and Franklin about why they are attackng him just so they can help him. Even lies about how he aquired the Lost MC airfield. It's not a big deal for Trevor because he is okay with lying, he just doesn't like when people lie to him, everyone else is fair game.
 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

uses Franklin for his own purposes

But, he also sacrifices much for him too. When the FIB gets a hold on him, he is honest to Franklin and even tells him to leave town so he doesn't get caught. In Paleto Bay heist, he tells Franklin to use him as a shield. When Dave asks about bringing Franklin in, Michael hides Franklin as some guy who looks after his car. Michael also introduces Franklin to Devin so they can make a big score, otherwise Michael could have just picked the movie studio for himself and left Franklin but he didn't, he made connections because he geninuely does care about Franklin. It also worth noting, that it is Franklin who came to Michael in Father/Son mission, seeking his mentorship and Michael offered an open invitation to Franklin to do the heist with him, Michael did not lead Franklin on. Franklin wanted to be there with Michael even when Michael told him that doing so would be dangerous.
 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

and is more annoyed at the fact he lost his boat rather than worrying if his son is alright.


No, that's not definitely true because he has issue showing his emotion. He clearly tells his son that he loves him IN SAME MISSION. However, he is a bad dad that is true, because the whole arc is about him growing and improving. So he has his flaws as a dad but he definitely cared more about his son than the boat, which is why he makes sure his son survive (when he is about fall of the boat) and even helps Franklin off the boat first before going after the yacht. So yes, he cares about Jimmy and Franklin first than his boat. But he has anger issues so he naturally expresses his pain over what he lost. He also eventually forget about losing his boat and even forgive Jimmy for drugging him at one point and leaving him off the side of the road. I might say that he probably likes his son....a little too much to be this forgiving.

 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

So who really crossed the limits?


That's not the limits that GTA series talk about. Starting fights without being provoked (like with Lost, Merryweather, Hilbillies, Aztecas), brutally killing people (Johnny), causing the death of innocent (Floyd), anger issue to the point that people are scared off you? That's Trevor. Trevor is also a cannibal and a sex predator. These are limits that not only Michael didn't cross, I don't think any protagonist has ever crossed them. Trevor is the first of his kind and that's what makes him special.

 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

Trevor (who is similar to 3D era protagonists, a somewhat aggressive but still loyal heart of gold criminal)


My friend.....do not think so poorly of 3D era protagonists, while Toni was a terrorist and worked for a cannibal, most of them were not sex predator, cannibalistic, out of control, enraged-bullies that stomp a man (a weakened Johnny) to death as brutally as Trevor did. He is something else.
 

 

1 hour ago, Comrade Monke said:

Michael's development seems to set him up as the final ultimate antagonist


Michael is an anatgonist but he's an anatgonist by perspective. In fact all Trevor, Steve/Devin and Michael are like that but the issue is that while you can make a deal with Michael, Steve and Devin to go calm down, you can't do that with Trevor. Trevor made it clear that he will live as he pleases, without rules or care, kill, bully, eat, f*ck and insult whoever he wants. You can't stop him with money or any reasonable argument. That's what he said in Ending C. He just does...whatever he wants. You tell me that you would feel safe with someone like Trevor roaming around? Because Michael, Steve and Devin may leave you alone but Trevor.....oh Trevor invades innocent people like Floyd, ordinary people's homes and makes them his own, eventually they either die by his hands or other. In fact the way he found Wade is concerning since he killed off his friends and made him a drug addict because he wanted a friend. Wade has no idea what Trevor did to his friends, he keeps it a secret.

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Comrade Monke
39 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


I see the problem. The issue is not that Michael sucks, it seems the issue is that you don't realize just how horrible Trevor is and the game intends you to know this.

1. He is straight up abusive to people who are loyal to him, remember Ron and Wade? He punches Wade even if when he said he wouldn't. Wade is also mentally slow so it is technically Trevor beating up mentally ill people.

2. He constantly scares Ron with threat and even forces him to give up his part of the cut in Nervous Ron mission. Ron is an extremely loyal friend to Trevor and this is how he is treated.
3. He kills Johnny K, the bikers, Aztecas and Hilbillies for no reason, they were all non-hostile parties in the area but Trevor wanted more control so he just started a war.

4. He comes to Los Santos and forcefully invade the house of Floyd, very very innocent person.

5. One of the switch to Trevor has him waking up next to Floyd as he is left crying, implying that he probably did molest him.

6. Infact Trevor shouting sexual abuses to friends and strangers is quite common.

7. Floyd is a good host who is scared by Trevor and in Scouting the Port Mission, he lefts Floyd to be beaten up by bunch of Merryweather goons and does not help at all.

8. Trevor plays a role in the death of Floyd and his girlfriend Debra, both are very innocent by GTA standard.

9. Physically abuses Shame or Fame employee because he is too impatient to find Tracey.

10. Forcefully get into Franklin's friend circle in Hood Safari even though both him and Lamar do not want him there.

11. Takes over the Strip Club and kills the owner (innocent) and stuffs his body in the fridge.
12. While Atruist Cult is optional, it is part of the 100% in a way and considering it has cutscenes it is, it can't be ignored. Trevor is perfectly okay with the cult, it is okay with supplying them people and never stops them (and it's expected because he's a immoral character) even though they are rumors that they eat people.
13. In Scouting the Pateto Bay, Trevor offers Michael a bowl of stew which has an eyelid which Trevor says is "probably" not human "unless" it was that gas station job. So apparently Trevor has no real issue eating human flesh.

14. In Packman, Franklin confirms that Trevor does "dig on man's meat" when the latter says that he doesn't bite.
15. In Ending A, Michael confirms that the cannibalism part was true.
16. He also has tendency to lie about things too, he doesn't clearly explain the problem behind Hilbiliies, he said that they stole business off, not that he killed almost all of their brothers just because a Chinese contract picked them over him.

17. His main argument in the exile cutscenes is that Michael isn't immoral enough. He needs to kill, rob and lie more like Trevor apparently.
18. Trevor also picks fight with Merryweather and even tries to steal a superweapon to sell to the Chinese, both are terroist level acts and even Lester warns that if they go through with the latter, Trevor and everyone who knows him will be in danger. Trevor hestitates to gives it up until Michael convinces him that he will find another score. Trevor holds him to that especially since he was so close to accepting the superweapon deal and make everyone live under massive security control because Trevor is just that dangerous of a criminal.
19. Michael would have been freed from FIB deal after IAA raid if Trevor had not attacked Merryweather several times for no reason other than that he likes it. He is making Michael and Franklin lives difficult just by being himself.

Trevor is probably the most immoral character we had since Toni. To say anything less, is to insult his character becasuse the selling point of Trevor is that he is out-of-control sociopath that cares nothing about rules. Even if he was tamed, he is still Faustin, Tenpenny and Billy level antagonist. Enough reason to put a bullet in him even if you don't like Michael.
 


Anger issues but he still shows much control. Trevor beats up his own loyal subordinates and yells sex abuses and death threats (Wade, Ron and Floyd) for his own amusement, not even due to anger issues, just his own amusement. And also I don't really blame him for Jimmy though since Jimmy actually drugged his own father and left him on the side of the road.

 

Actually.......I don't remember him screaming at her, they usually just scream at each other. So, especially since Amanda has shown to cheat with a dozen men by now, I don't really blame him that much but it is a concern but nothing at the level of Trevor though, which caused the death of the innocent like Floyd.
 

 


Trevor lies too sadly. Like I said the whole Hibiliies problem? Lies to both Michael and Franklin about why they are attackng him just so they can help him. Even lies about how he aquired the Lost MC airfield. It's not a big deal for Trevor because he is okay with lying, he just doesn't like when people lie to him, everyone else is fair game.
 

But, he also sacrifices much for him too. When the FIB gets a hold on him, he is honest to Franklin and even tells him to leave town so he doesn't get caught. In Paleto Bay heist, he tells Franklin to use him as a shield. When Dave asks about bringing Franklin in, Michael hides Franklin as some guy who looks after his car. Michael also introduces Franklin to Devin so they can make a big score, otherwise Michael could have just picked the movie studio for himself and left Franklin but he didn't, he made connections because he geninuely does care about Franklin. It also worth noting, that it is Franklin who came to Michael in Father/Son mission, seeking his mentorship and Michael offered an open invitation to Franklin to do the heist with him, Michael did not lead Franklin on. Franklin wanted to be there with Michael even when Michael told him that doing so would be dangerous.
 


No, that's not definitely true because he has issue showing his emotion. He clearly tells his son that he loves him IN SAME MISSION. However, he is a bad dad that is true, because the whole arc is about him growing and improving. So he has his flaws as a dad but he definitely cared more about his son than the boat, which is why he makes sure his son survive (when he is about fall of the boat) and even helps Franklin off the boat first before going after the yacht. So yes, he cares about Jimmy and Franklin first than his boat. But he has anger issues so he naturally expresses his pain over what he lost. He also eventually forget about losing his boat and even forgive Jimmy for drugging him at one point and leaving him off the side of the road. I might say that he probably likes his son....a little too much to be this forgiving.

 


That's not the limits that GTA series talk about. Starting fights without being provoked (like with Lost, Merryweather, Hibillies, Aztecas), brutally killing people (Johnny), causing the death of innocent (Floyd), anger issue to the point that people are scared off you? That's Trevor. Trevor is also a cannibal and a sex predator. These are limits that not only Michael didn't cross, I don't think any protagonist has ever crossed them. Trevor is the first of his kind and that's what makes him special.

 


My friend.....do not think so poorly of 3D era protagonists, while Toni was a terrorist and worked for a cannibal, most of them were not sex predator, cannibalistic, out of control, enraged-bullies that stomp a man (a weakened Johnny) to death as brutally as Trevor did. He is something else.
 

 


Michael is an anatgonist but he's an anatgonist by perspective. In fact all Trevor, Steve/Devin and Michael are like that but the issue is that while you can make a deal with Michael, Steve and Devin to go calm down, you can't do that with Trevor. Trevor made it clear that he will live as he pleases, without rules or care, kill, bully, eat, f*ck and insult whoever he wants. You can't stop him with money or any reasonable argument. That's what he said in Ending C. He just does...whatever he wants. You tell me that you would feel safe with someone like Trevor roaming around? Because Michael, Steve and Devin may leave you alone but Trevor.....oh Trevor invades innocent people like Floyd, ordinary people's homes and makes them his own, eventually they either die by his hands or other. In fact the way he found Wade is concerning since he killed off his friends and made him a drug addict because he wanted a friend. Wade has no idea what Trevor did to his friends, he keeps it a secret.

Oh trust me the issue is not whether Trevor or not is actually a good person. Michael is still undoubtedly the one that deserves to be killed the most even if your interpretation of all of those things about Trevor is the correct one.

 

Michael is similar to characters such as Sonny Forelli, Lance and Big Smoke: A guy who, while may initially present himself as rational and "good", is an extremely messed up, evil, selfish and abusive prick. The one thing all those antagonists have in common is that they are a type of evil different from, let's say, Trevor, who has multiple mental and anger issues and you can kinda excuse his more evil moments because you could argue he doesn't really realize what he is doing, and also has redeemable qualities such as being loyal. Antagonists such as Forelli, Lance, Smoke and Michael make great antagonists that you love to hate because they don't have mental issues that can excuse them being like that, they are way more evil than that because they rationally and calmly plan to and manipulate, abuse, betray and hurt anyone who gets in their way for simply their own benefits. Rather than just having anger problems they rationally choose to do all these evil stuff because they want to gain more. This makes them great antagonists because you end up hating them so much that when you get to kill them you feel extremely satisfied. This is why Trevor doesn't make for a good antagonist, they give him redeemable qualities which ends in the player not really wanting or caring enough to kill him. Devin and Steve just aren't evil enough either. But Michael, Michael is written to be this dude who doesn't have redeemable qualities or anger issues, but rather is evil because he rationally chooses to hurt people to gain more for himself. He uses the same character structure as Forelli, Lance or Big Smoke. This and also the foreshadowing (Such as Lester telling Michael that getting Franklin on the heist will be "his funeral") ultimately makes ending B the most logical choice.

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3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

Michael is similar to characters such as Sonny Forelli, Lance

I do not think Sonny and Lance share the same archetype as Michael.

Sonny is just a mob boss that does what a mob boss does. He's not forced to do what he does. 
Lance has inferiority complex and does not like to be made small, he wanted to be on top and betrayed others. He's not forced by anyone to do that.

Issue is that Michael is forced to do what he did because there is a threat of FIB. Michael does not want power nor does he like to dominate others like Lance/Sonny. He just wanted peace and an escape, for himself and his family.
 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

Big Smoke


However Big Smoke does share some of this with Michael since he had the pressure of Tenpenny. However Big Smoke also went for power and on the cost of his gang family, he pushed drugs. Michael case is that while he is forced by FIB, he actually went quiet and just did his own thing until his anger issues ended his quiet life and then both Trevor and FIB pressured him back into crime. The difference here is that Michael tried to retire peacefully and escape crime for the sake of himself and his family only to be put back into it because of his weakness. Big Smoke, however, made the best of his situation but end up getting caught in power. There is a difference but still I like the comparsion because even GTA SA is forgiving to Big Smoke's situation as the real problem is Tenpenny in that game.
 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

because you could argue he doesn't really realize what he is doing


If you do the Minor Turbulence Mission, Trevor happily accepts that he is a bully that loves to live without any limits. He enjoys who he is, he is proud of it and he wants Michael to be like him. That's not a man who is ignorant, Trevor embraces his lifestyle open heartedly. Because this is exactly what people love about Trevor, you can't just wave his most popular point away by saying he doesn't realize. He is "hell walking on earth" as the game puts it because players want to be that. Especially because Trevor does show capability of regret in a Drunk hangout, in Border Patrol missions and when meeting his mother so it's not like, he's necessarily doing it because of mental issues, he does a lot of things with planning and focus. He has a philosophy that life should be about pleasure and chaos. To do things because you feel like it. He has anger issues like Michael but just like Michael, he does bad stuff on his own accord. Difference is that he looks forward to it while Michael hesitates. He doesn't like that Michael shows restraint, he considers it a weakness of his. And yes, according to Michael's therapist, Michael also has mental issues too so you need to cut him slack too by priniciple.
 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

and also has redeemable qualities such as being loyal.


To who? Just a few people he selected that's it. What about Floyd? What about Lost? What about Aztecas? What about the Hilbillies? All of them were straight with him and he just ran them over one day because he just felt like it. Even Niko is loyal to Faustin to a degree, once the limit is crossed, Faustin had to die. Even Faustin told Niko when he was being chased that Dimitri wanted Niko dead but Faustin did a favor and kept him and his cousin alive but that didn't stop Niko from killing Faustin because Faustin was out of control, loyallty has limits.

And while you can talk about loyalty, all you want, you can't just expect people to ignore that list of problems I highlighted. Trevor is a walking bomb, him being loyal doesn't help. It's like being you shouldn't betray Sonny because hypothetically he came to your birthday party? No, you need to see Trevor in all his actions. Trevor could have stayed away from Michael after finding out he was alive but he came back to him. Trevor forces himself into many people lives and make them difficult just like the death of Floyd and Debra that did nothing to him.

 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

because they rationally and calmly plan to and manipulate, abuse, betray and hurt anyone who gets in their way for simply their own benefits.


Michael did not do any of that to Trevor like that. Michael was in a tough position, had no choice and picked to escape. He retired and left everyone behind. Trevor comes back and start forcing himself into his life. What is he supposed to do? Because Michael isn't calm, rational or planning, he's panicking on how he wanted to escape that life and now it's forcing itself on him. Even Ending A is planned by Franklin, not Michael, It's planned by Franklin. Michael reclutantly agrees and even if you meet him in free roam afterwards, he tells Franklin to leave him alone for a while because he did not like what he did at all. This is not the work of a man who is calmly planning betrayal, this is a man who was trying to survive and had to hastily make decisions as they come upon him.

But you know what, the whole manipulation, abuse, hurt for own benefit thing? That's EXACTLY what Trevor did to Floyd. Especially considering Floyd was most innocent character we had.
 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

This makes them great antagonists because you end up hating them so much that when you get to kill them you feel extremely satisfied. This is why Trevor doesn't make for a good antagonist,


But Tenpenny, Pulaski, Vlad, Faustin and Billy are all like Trevor, and they were great anatgonists. 
 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

they give him redeemable qualities which ends in the player not really wanting or caring enough to kill him. but Michael, Michael is written to be this dude who doesn't have redeemable qualities or anger issues, but rather is evil because he rationally chooses to hurt people to gain more for himself.


Michael does have redeemable qualities. He didn't kill Trevor when he should of, for the vile character Trevor is. He has shown hestitant to kill Trevor despite his problems and when he was forced, he choose the option to run away (Prologue). He is a good dad and a husband, both his family do agree on that after Reuniting the Family mission and ESPECIALLY in Ending B where his family mourns him greatly and breaks ties with Franklin (Even Trevor in a Hangout with Franklin says that Michael being a family guy, is one of the reason why he forgave him). Franklin also agrees in Ending A that Michael is not the problem (the point being that Franklin sees something good in Michael). Both Dave and Steve agree that Michael is safe to let live over Trevor whereas Michael's death is only so because Devin has a personal vendatta, not because Michael is an awful person. 

And of course what's really redeemable about him is that Trevor is simply more irredeemable than him for having that entire list I have written in previous list. He's not Trevor, period. Killing Trevor is something I consider to be redeemable quality of both Michael and Franklin as well because it's something a GTA protagonist would do. Justl like Niko with Faustin.
 

3 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

This and also the foreshadowing (Such as Lester telling Michael that getting Franklin on the heist will be "his funeral")

That's not the foreshadowing, it's actually foreshadowing in Fresh Meat mission. That's just a reference to the Prologue that Michael faked his death. That the heist is "one of his funeral" which would imply that he probably going to survive this one too if you wanna look at that way but it's not intended like that.

Franklin is too indecisive in the Ending A,B and C for us to know what was the actually ending. He was considering kiling Trevor in A, Michael in B and almost both of them in C until Lester made a plan (which speaks a lot of about Franklin's character). And even if you do pick Ending B, I think you are making an argument against yourself here because ultimately Franklin has to BETRAY Michael. In other words, loyalty has limits, right? Despite all I have listed above that Michael have done for him in the previous post? Franklin will still betray him according to you? And that's the poetic beauty of Ending B.......Franklin becomes like his mentor in the end as he quotes his line of "legs giving up and he just can't run anymore." from Fresh Meat Mission (the foreshadowing).
 

Edited by Ryo256
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billiejoearmstrong8
21 hours ago, Ryo256 said:


You have a point but certain points of mine must be kept in mind:

1. Trevor might redeem himself to Michael but in general, Trevor is still a walking problem that brings trouble as well. The IAA building raid would have been Michael's last ride with FIB if it hasn't been Trevor messing with Merryweather for no reason other than mere joy. Franklin makes the argument perfectly in Ending A, Trevor was gonna get everyone killed eventually. Which leads to my second point.


2. GTA series IMO demands that Trevor, for being as immoral and out of control he is, he should be put down. It's not a case of Michael and Trevor, it's a case of dealing with a uncontrollable self-harming sociopath that will not neogotiate (even Steve and Devin are willing to deal but Trevor is pure hedonist anarchist level problem if you listen to him in Ending C). 

 

3. Now you may argue that well by GTA series virtue, we should kill Michael too for being a traitor but the issue that Michael didn't betray a decent person, he betrayed Trevor (opposite of a decent person, sorry), he did not call Trevor back into his life, Trevor came and stuck his hand into the beehive and complained about being stung, his problem, not Michael's. And I think that Michael is remorseful for his backstabbing nature but he simply can't afford a Trevor, he simply can't and Trevor never makes it easier for him so you have deal with Trevor somehow, either to seek forgiveness, to go die to Franklin or kill him. Whatever case is, Trevor is a problem, that's what I'm focusing on, Trevor is the main conflict in GTA V from my perspective, even if it's not from others.  But if Michael did betray a decent person, did call Trevor back only to stab him again and was proud of his backstabbing, I would kill Michael without second thought but that's not the case. Trevor was digging his own grave and in Ending A, he succeeded. 

Conclusion: Even if Trevor is straight, helps Micheal and wants to be with him, it's not enough. He needs to acknowledge that his lifestyle does not give him the luxury of friends, let alone loyal ones. My conclusion is that Trevor is a walking self-destructive character that needs to fix himself rather than asking Michael to be sorry. But we both know, Trevor will never fix himself so there is only one solution.

 

I don't disagree with your argument/logic for Trevor being killed/ending A but this is why I enjoy V's writing and will defend it - the characters/relationships/storylines are complex and nuanced enough that there can be arguments for all of the outcomes being "correct". For me ending C is a bit dodgy in that regard because it is a bit too "fairytale", but I think all of the choices and endings can be justified and are interesting conclusions to the story. If they aren't all that then there's no point in giving the player the choice of different endings. So I won't argue against choosing any of the endings. 

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I have to agree on Trevor and Michael's dynamic with him, on my very first playthrough of the game all the way back in 2013 I decided to make my choice on the final mission as if it was me in Franklin's position.

 

Michael was a definite no-no, the third way while the 'romantic' option wouldn't be any level of viable outside of a game which left me with Trevor, while we know that after that mission it's the end of the story I imagined myself making the choice based on what the foreseeable future would look like.

 

Imagine how much aggro Trevor could have landed the trio in during the last 9 years, and I don't think Michael or Franklin have enough affinity with + attachment to Trevor that they should allow that to be a possibility.

 

If it was my best friend I would stick by him, but that's because we've been that way since we were 3 years old, Trevor's relationships with the duo on the other hand are nothing like that and so I don't think there's really a huge amount of emotional weight riding on it for Michael or Franklin.

 

For me personally Trevor's unstable nature + potential for creating new problems outweighs the sentiment + level of friendship Michael + Franklin should have for him.

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1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

I don't disagree with your argument/logic for Trevor being killed/ending A but this is why I enjoy V's writing and will defend it - the characters/relationships/storylines are complex and nuanced enough that there can be arguments for all of the outcomes being "correct". For me ending C is a bit dodgy in that regard because it is a bit too "fairytale", but I think all of the choices and endings can be justified and are interesting conclusions to the story. If they aren't all that then there's no point in giving the player the choice of different endings. So I won't argue against choosing any of the endings. 


Exactly, that's the thing. The morality of GTA V is complex, it can't be measured like the old days from 3D era and there is enough reasons for everyone to pick any of the Endings.

To me it's like this as I said. Ending is like a question: "Who do you think is the main conflict of GTA V?"

Players' answers?

Ending A - 'Well, it's Trevor, he's too much, kill him and everyone is safe."
Ending B - "Just kill Michael, let's see how he feels when someone is forced to sacrifice him for their own survival. With him dead, no more FIB, no more Trevor."
Ending C - "Shut the hell up, screw your morality talk and let me play the game."

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  • 1 month later...
DarthZytsigma69

I don't think any GTA protagonist is bad. They're all well written, badass and dangerous. For Michael, well I like him because he's smart, deep and has a great shooting skill. 

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I only hate him because I become Michael when GTA Online kicks me out of a session.

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  • 1 month later...
crashoverride93

It might be just because of his car or something or I might be just crazy. But Michael in a way comes off to me as a sort of guy who is trying to be a James Bond type of guy. But The way he feels about life is just regularly unsatisfied. Which that latter part I would say a lot of people can relate too. While the former is just the way he more or less pictures himself.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Homicidal Hipster

You forget a thousand things everyday. How bout you make sure this thread is one of them. 

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