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I f*cking hate Michael, why do people love him so much?


Comrade Monke
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On 7/5/2022 at 12:08 PM, The Tracker said:

 

Talking about this, this reminds myself that I always wanted GTA V's story to be something like Breaking Bad, the first arc just had everything for it to be like it, a main cast consisting of a book smart man in a mid-life crisis and a young street criminal trying to make a name for himself, where they develop a mentor-mentee relationship in a form of crime they found themselves how to make profits of like no other (In the case of GTA V, bank robberies), where in the process they find themselves having problems with cartels, the government and even their own families, heck, it even has the early 2010's south-western setting for it. People always associate GTA V with the movie Heat, but I always found even more resemblance with the AMC show, and I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it just happens to show how much of an actual crime story the game felt when it just started, anyway, whether they didn't know how to continue with the story, lost interest, or simply got burned out of making a good narrative because of the criticisms GTA IV got, the reality is that they just missed an oportunity, maybe if they got rid of Trevor (Or made him an actual psychopath with an antagonistic role), lowered down on the satire, and involved actual crime as the core of the storyline, we would have got, at least, a decent crime tale, instead we have a B-Plot Michael Bay movie that tries to be something it isn't. 

 

Sometimes I like to think they were writing GTA V the same time as RDR2, and that's why they're night and day in terms of narrative effort. 

It was a huge missed opportunity 

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tbh i always found it funny with gta v that people though the game where second heist is about stealing a f*cking nuke.... that the problem with storyline were inclusion of three protagonists

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Michael as a person was alright to me. But his storyline was dumb, his missions corny, and his family annoying. Tbh his FIB storyline is what made GTA V’s story corny to me.

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Algonquin Assassin

I like Michael as a person, but never cared for his family drama.

 

In a way I wish he was ex-mafioso and that’s why he had to go into witness protection and his old cronies would come back to haunt him some day.

 

That’s what I remember thinking back in 2011, but it is what it is. He’s my favourite GTA V protagonist though.

Edited by Algonquin Assassin

Boardwalk Empire Episode 2.1 Review - That Shelf

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On 9/19/2022 at 1:32 AM, Eternal Moonshine said:

I like Michael

Best protagonist in the series for my money

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    JP0cYXG_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&

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1 hour ago, Homicidal Hipster said:

Thank f*ck none of you were on the V writing team.. jesus christ. I'm not going to point names, you know who you are. 


2ySkbYe.gif

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17 minutes ago, Homicidal Hipster said:

Ahhhh you better believe it buddy 

L + cope

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13 hours ago, Comrade Monke said:

L + cope


There is no L in quoting GTA dialogue. :shillkek:

 

Spoiler

Bw3IDRt.gif

 

Edited by Ryo256
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billiejoearmstrong8

Michael is a backstabber and a chump! But he's also an interesting, well written/well acted and entertaining character. Considering him "cool" in any way is something I don't get lol. But enjoying the character, how could you not?

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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24 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Considering him "cool" in any way is something I don't get lol.


Oh he's definitely one of the coolest. (At least in old school sense).

NTsRq2U.jpg

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I don't like Michael, and Trevor even less. Franklin's the only one I liked, at least his head was on straight. The stats for story play time for me is like 15% for Michael, 10% for Trevor and 75% for Franklin. I did all the free roam stuff that didn't require a character as Franklin.

 

I was never convinced that Michael could be a professional thief. He has serious anger issues and cannot even control his own family. Hell, he can't control anything. Reactionary, woe is me. Self-important with little reason for it. There's a little thing that plays when you spawn in as Michael. He's leaving the movie studio as he berates the unfortunate guard at the gate. Says something like See my face?! remember it! I'm your fooking boss! It sums up his inflated sense of self-worth. He's a loser and throughout story mode I never bought in to this character. Not cool, not collected. Neurotic, self-absorbed failure seeking his riding in to the sunset moment.

 

Thankfully I could play the whole game in first person, so at least when his gob wasn't flapping I could forget I was playing him. Great game, GTA 5, but the main characters were weak and unconvincing, even in an over-the-top Rockstar sort of way.

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billiejoearmstrong8
17 hours ago, Ryo256 said:


Oh he's definitely one of the coolest. (At least in old school sense).

 

When I know about the family, film studio, therapist and Epsilon stuff I just can't see him that way lol. With that stuff in mind a picture like this is just humorous to me. I don't mind though, I'm amused by him and fine with doing cool action stuff with a character I don't find cool.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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19 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

When I know about the family, film studio, therapist and Epsilon stuff I just can't see him that way lol. With that stuff in mind a picture like this is just humorous to me. I don't mind though, I'm amused by him and fine with doing cool action stuff with a character I don't find cool.


That's the thing, you are looking at him through a certain way and do not find him cool. But you implied that it would be difficult to do so in any way in which I would argue that there are ways where people can perceive him as cool. He has style and charisma which is usually enough to gain the perception of being cool. Whether he is actually cool or not is debatable but there is definitely room for many people to see him like that is what I'm getting at. Besides, the way you made you points, I would assume you would think none of the R* protagonists since CJ can be perceived as cool because they have many problematic factors including the ones that comes with their immoral lifestyle, if so, then it is fair and I agree.

Edited by Ryo256
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billiejoearmstrong8
53 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


That's the thing, you are looking at him through a certain way and do not find him cool. But you implied that it would be difficult to do so in any way in which I would argue that there are ways where people can perceive him as cool. He has style and charisma which is usually enough to gain the perception of being cool. Whether he is actually cool or not is debatable but there is definitely room for many people to see him like that is what I'm getting at. Besides, the way you made you points, I would assume you would think none of the R* protagonists since CJ can be perceived as cool because they have many problematic factors including the ones that comes with their immoral lifestyle, if so, then it is fair and I agree.

Oh yeah no problem with others seeing him as cool, I just don't relate. It's not really his more problematic/immoral traits, it's more just "uncool" traits that he has eg being extremely gullible and able to be manipulated by his ego being stroked, being a doormat dad/husband, and seeming to see himself as a lot cooler than he is. Just doesn't have a cool vibe to me. 

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When I said he was not cool, I wasn't referring to his style or vibe (and these last few posts weren't aimed at me anyway). I meant not cool, as in measured, cold, calculating. Having his act together.  These are traits I'd expect from a master professional thief. Michael's not that.  He has a temper that triggers over inconsequential things, overreactions. His personality doesn't dovetail with his supposed line of work.  It's unconvincing. He's too high-strung to pull it off.

 

Which is not to say he isn't a good character necessarily. But that the way he is portrayed fails to make him believable for me in the context of his chosen vocation. He can be seen as complex perhaps, and flawed, and human. That's all fine. But no way this neurotic sociopath ever would make a master thief. In my view.

 

Now Franklin. He gets a lot of grief from the community, always seems to be the least favorite. Not for me. He's the only one of the three I found compelling and believable. Convincing. His rise-from-the-hood arc makes sense. He's the only one, it seems, to ever question things. To see the bad decisions and rotten plans. He's skeptical, smart and ambitious. Opportunistic sure, but wary too. Like I said, the only one with his head on straight. Let's see where this mofo takes me, but ready to jump off at a moment's notice. He's not got the baggage and hang-ups that Trevor and Michael carry. He's not clinically insane or neurotic. He's just a banger looking for a better life, but all the while realizing just how crazy the stuff they do is. Michael and Trevor never seem to think anything is out of the ordinary, the excess is conventional. Expected. Normal.  But it's not and Franklin gets it. He's the stable one, the voice of reason.

 

It's also true that Rockstar gave Franklin the smallest part of the three, and people knock him for being a bit-part player. But from a character-building perspective, Franklin is my favorite in GTA 5.

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11 minutes ago, smokeless6 said:

These are traits I'd expect from a master professional thief.

He's not a master professional thief though. I assume you are refering to the line where he told Franklin that he is a terrific thief but that is used loosely if consider these points:

The gameplay trailer (1:01-1:03) calls him a "once successful bank robber" and this is what Michael confirms too:

x3HxBIG.gif

Therefore, the cold calculating approach isn't required of him like you would from a master thief. What's required is that he can rob banks and get away with the take, whether loud or quiet, again something the game highlights to be expected from a robber.

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OK fair enough, and if we see him as just a bank robber, and not a 'professional', he's still the mastermind, and even in that role he fails to convince me due to his character flaws and personality. The jobs we do in the game come off for the most part, but it feels like that's in spite of Michael, not because of him.  However we see the level of professionalism assumed for Michael, I don't buy it. Not because I didn't want to, even if I disliked him, but because the flaws I see in him would run counter to the requirements of the work.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, smokeless6 said:

OK fair enough, and if we see him as just a bank robber, and not a 'professional', he's still the mastermind, and even in that role he fails to convince me due to his character flaws and personality. The jobs we do in the game come off for the most part, but it feels like that's in spite of Michael, not because of him.  However we see the level of professionalism assumed for Michael, I don't buy it. Not because I didn't want to, even if I disliked him, but because the flaws I see in him would run counter to the requirements of the work.

 

 


Whether you think he's incompetent or not is another story. The issue that I must highlight is the premise being made against him is wrong, he's not a mastermind, he's not a master thief, he is just a famous washed-up bank robber that was forced into a life that he no longer wanted to be a part of, after his retirement, with threats of death, torture and imprisonment by FIB/Madrazo (including also the potential threat of Trevor).

When you look from that perspective, Michael's behavior and his shortcomings are understandable IMO.

If you want a mastermind, look at Lester. Because all the planning is done by him and Michael relies on him for a reason.

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I personally really like Michael, he’s my favorite protagonist. I think it’s because I really empathize with him, especially in my last time playing the story I kind of realized he’s just doing his best at keeping it together.

 

This might be really unpopular, but I don’t understand why people blame him for choosing a better life for his kids over staying with Trevor and Brad, when the latter were really not the good guys they claimed to be. If you listen closely to a lot of dialogue in the story, you can tell Trevor and Brad both were never really loyal to Michael in the first place since they planned to ditch Michael before what happened in Ludendorff. Not only that, but I’m pretty sure if Trevor and Brad were good people let alone genuine friends Michael wouldn’t have done what he did judging by how considerate he is to others in the story (for example paying Franklin after having him wreck the dealership in Complications, letting Lazlow go after Trevor threatens him in Fame Or Shame, he’s always super calm when threatened by Madrazo, letting Casey go after Trevor threatens to shoot him in The Big Score (Subtle) and more).

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Funny, if you played as Michael and and hung out with Trevor at the end of the game, you wouldn't have wrote this post.

 

During the prologue, we clearly saw that Michael was a snake lying bastard that would betray his own friends because of money, but you can clearly see in the second Dr. Friedlander mission that Michael told him that he is rich and miserable, and if i remember correctly, there's a moment in the history that Michael tells Trevor that money only made him more miserable. Definitely, Michael had a redemption arc throught the story noticing all of the horrible things he has done and how it affected his health and the health of his family, you even notice in Option B how happy he is when Amanda tells him that Tracey is going to college.

 

So for me at least, what makes Michael such a great protagonist is how he develops throught the story of GTA V and what a great person he became at the end (Option C).

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billiejoearmstrong8
19 hours ago, Ryuichi said:

Funny, if you played as Michael and and hung out with Trevor at the end of the game, you wouldn't have wrote this post.

 

During the prologue, we clearly saw that Michael was a snake lying bastard that would betray his own friends because of money, but you can clearly see in the second Dr. Friedlander mission that Michael told him that he is rich and miserable, and if i remember correctly, there's a moment in the history that Michael tells Trevor that money only made him more miserable. Definitely, Michael had a redemption arc throught the story noticing all of the horrible things he has done and how it affected his health and the health of his family, you even notice in Option B how happy he is when Amanda tells him that Tracey is going to college.

 

So for me at least, what makes Michael such a great protagonist is how he develops throught the story of GTA V and what a great person he became at the end (Option C).

Is that just because everything worked out in ending C though? As late as The Big Score, the big heist they'd planned on doing together for years, while Michael and Franklin plus crew members are escaping the cops by car Michael keeps saying how if they get caught they'll pin it all on Trevor, that Trevor will go down for this not them. If option A is chosen when Franklin calls Michael he immediately agrees to help kill Trevor no problem, and will do so later if Franklin hesitates. If option B is chosen while Franklin chases Michael he tries to convince him that they should go after Trevor instead. Contrast that with Trevor, who in option B absolutely refuses to help Franklin kill Michael and is disgusted that he asked.

 

It seems to me that while Michael did have a positive arc as far as his family goes, he remained ready and willing to double cross/kill his friend AGAIN at the drop of a hat right until the end, and that only stopped because it wasn't necessary any more. He's never redeemed in my eyes.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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29 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Is that just because everything worked out in ending C though? As late as The Big Score, the big heist they'd planned on doing together for years, while Michael and Franklin plus crew members are escaping the cops by car Michael keeps saying how if they get caught they'll pin it all on Trevor, that Trevor will go down for this not them. If option A is chosen when Franklin calls Michael he immediately agrees to help kill Trevor no problem, and will do so later if Franklin hesitates. If option B is chosen while Franklin chases Michael he tries to convince him that they should go after Trevor instead. Contrast that with Trevor, who in option B absolutely refuses to help Franklin kill Michael and is disgusted that he asked.

 

It seems to me that while Michael did have a positive arc as far as his family goes, he remained ready and willing to double cross/kill his friend AGAIN at the drop of a hat right until the end, and that only stopped because it wasn't necessary any more. He's never redeemed in my eyes.


S4KUAvA.gif

 

You sure you wanna rain on the parade of GTA V narrative defence here? (Because last time I checked you liked it when it was praised) Because I got something.......heavy to say too about Trevor and I think you can guess what it is......

Edited by Ryo256
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29 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


S4KUAvA.gif

 

You sure you wanna rain on the parade of GTA V narrative defence here? (Because last time I checked you liked it when it was praised) Because I got something.......heavy to say too about Trevor and I think you can guess what it is......

Trevor is a far better person than Michael.

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2 minutes ago, Comrade Monke said:

Trevor is a far better person than Michael.

LOL Trevor literally tortures and EATS people just for fun.

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1 minute ago, Comrade Monke said:

Trevor is a far better person than Michael.


Most of the GTA V players would definitely disagree with you. However, that's just the difference of opinion, no, that's not the real issue I'm alluding to. The question is, who's fault is the GTA V's main conflict? The answer to that question manifests in form of Ending A, B and C. And the answer will differ based on your perspective, different players picked different endings. It is one of the rare beauty of GTA V narrative, albeit having its flaws.

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