Did Tommy fight in the Vietnam war?

[Luis Vercetti]

Ive had a few arguements in the past about tommy fighting the vietnam war. for anyone wondering im on the side that thinks he did fight in the war. in the mission "Messing with the Man" Mitch Baker pretty much rants about how USA needs a kick in the ass and how the country has betrayed them (yada yada yada..) Tommy replies by saying he was arrested in 'nam. from this context you would think tommy served in the war and got arrested in 'nam. i know there is also the fact that he could be mentioning how he got arrested in 1971 after doing that favor for sonny but then again it could be a probability. what do yall think? did tommy serve in the war or no. i like to think he did because it makes him sound more badass but thats just my biased speaking  plus it kinda fits with the irony with Phil saying he doubts tommy "was ever in the service" considering the fact that Phil most likely made up his past about being in the army...

Edited December 30, 2021 by Luis Vercetti

[lil vader]

I understand that Tommy makes a throwaway line in the mission you mentioned but I hate to be the bearer of bad news..

 

The official game manual states Tommy Vercetti is 35 years old in 1986 putting him being born sometime during 1951-1952.

 

To oversimplify, most people agree that US involvement in the Vietnam War began in 1965. At this time, it would make Tommy at least 14 years old, obviously not of age to join the military. I'm going to take it as a given that the timeline of Vietnam played out similarly to how it played out in real life, and there is nothing within the context of the GTA series to suggest that this isn't the case.

 

Now from 1971 began Tommy's 15 year stretch in prison and in the game, we are led to believe that Tommy carried out his entire term in prison. This means that Tommy Vercetti was 20 years old when he went to prison.

This means that for this theory you have posited to be correct, within 6 years Tommy would have had to

- Voluntarily join/get drafted into the Vietnam War

- Get trained and participate in a tour of duty

- Join the Forelli's as an associate

- Grow his power/status to a point where Sonny Forelli felt threatened enough to attempt to have Tommy killed

 

Sorry but for as much as GTA requires the player to suspend their disbelief to believe they could kill 100 pedestrians and get let out of prison after Ken Rosenberg makes a phone call I just think it's too far-fetched to reasonably believe Tommy could accomplish all that in that small amount of time. Granted we don't know his full backstory but I was always under the impression he spent his early life running with the Liberty City mob as opposed to being a army veteran. I think the game would have made invariably clear this was the case, especially in the missions where the player deals with Phil Cassidy, Mitch etc.

 

That does pose an interesting question though of why exactly Tommy Vercetti would say this line. I spent about half an hour googling this and I'm incredibly surprised at the lack of any discussion around this topic given that GTA fans tend to scrutinize and pick apart a lot of aspects of their favorite characters. In my opinion this is just a left-over from some early version of the script when they were still conceptualizing Tommy and his backstory and it was just overlooked. Rockstar are notorious for accidentally leaving left-overs and with Vice City's rushed development it's not out of the realm of possibility.

 

2 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

i like to think he did because it makes him sound more badass but thats just my biased speaking

 

A little bit off-topic, but just as a side-note, it's not in it of itself a "badass" trait for a character to have fought in a conflict and have that be a defining characteristic, especially not in a game where you have the option to go around killing civilians. You'll find that Rockstar mocks this exact stereotype of people who glorify war with their portrayal of Phil Cassidy.

[Tycek]

In "Messing with the man" cutscene Tommy says "I was locked up during 'nam. Ugly business."
He was in the prison between 1971 and 1986, and he went there while being around 20 years old, thus he wasn't able to fight even if he wanted. Also knowing Tommy's approach to country duty, since he said "Fly shooting popular in the army? Glad I don't pay tax," it's highly unlikely he was even in the army.  

[Luis Vercetti]

11 hours ago, lil vader said:

I understand that Tommy makes a throwaway line in the mission you mentioned but I hate to be the bearer of bad news..

 

The official game manual states Tommy Vercetti is 35 years old in 1986 putting him being born sometime during 1951-1952.

 

To oversimplify, most people agree that US involvement in the Vietnam War began in 1965. At this time, it would make Tommy at least 14 years old, obviously not of age to join the military. I'm going to take it as a given that the timeline of Vietnam played out similarly to how it played out in real life, and there is nothing within the context of the GTA series to suggest that this isn't the case.

 

Now from 1971 began Tommy's 15 year stretch in prison and in the game, we are led to believe that Tommy carried out his entire term in prison. This means that Tommy Vercetti was 20 years old when he went to prison.

This means that for this theory you have posited to be correct, within 6 years Tommy would have had to

- Voluntarily join/get drafted into the Vietnam War

- Get trained and participate in a tour of duty

- Join the Forelli's as an associate

- Grow his power/status to a point where Sonny Forelli felt threatened enough to attempt to have Tommy killed

 

Sorry but for as much as GTA requires the player to suspend their disbelief to believe they could kill 100 pedestrians and get let out of prison after Ken Rosenberg makes a phone call I just think it's too far-fetched to reasonably believe Tommy could accomplish all that in that small amount of time. Granted we don't know his full backstory but I was always under the impression he spent his early life running with the Liberty City mob as opposed to being a army veteran. I think the game would have made invariably clear this was the case, especially in the missions where the player deals with Phil Cassidy, Mitch etc.

 

That does pose an interesting question though of why exactly Tommy Vercetti would say this line. I spent about half an hour googling this and I'm incredibly surprised at the lack of any discussion around this topic given that GTA fans tend to scrutinize and pick apart a lot of aspects of their favorite characters. In my opinion this is just a left-over from some early version of the script when they were still conceptualizing Tommy and his backstory and it was just overlooked. Rockstar are notorious for accidentally leaving left-overs and with Vice City's rushed development it's not out of the realm of possibility.

 

 

A little bit off-topic, but just as a side-note, it's not in it of itself a "badass" trait for a character to have fought in a conflict and have that be a defining characteristic, especially not in a game where you have the option to go around killing civilians. You'll find that Rockstar mocks this exact stereotype of people who glorify war with their portrayal of Phil Cassidy.

I appreciate the depth of your response. " it's not in it of itself a "badass" trait for a character to have fought in a conflict and have that be a defining characteristic, especially not in a game where you have the option to go around killing civilians" I didnt say tommy wasnt unyielding (badass) and that this would make him but it would add more color to his background and give is a better of an idea of how tommy thinks and his perspective on things and yeah there is a very little gap for tommy to join the military but keep in mind the vietnam war didnt end until 1975 and it also started in 1955. the lowest age a person could join the military during the vietnam war was 17 years old meaning that tommy could have joined in 1968 and joined the forelli family somwhere between 1969 and 1971 (probably not 1971) and also a very likely scenario is that tommy could have been drafted as USA did draft people into the military during this war and he could have fleed the military and joined the forelli family. And you are right i dont know why that small line was included because of tommy didnt fight in the vietnam war, that line is a bit misleading. Maybe tommy could have been in the military reluctantly and this is why he tries to avoid talking about it since he doesnt oftenly talk about his past.

5 hours ago, Tycek said:

In "Messing with the man" cutscene Tommy says "I was locked up during 'nam. Ugly business."
He was in the prison between 1971 and 1986, and he went there while being around 20 years old, thus he wasn't able to fight even if he wanted. Also knowing Tommy's approach to country duty, since he said "Fly shooting popular in the army? Glad I don't pay tax," it's highly unlikely he was even in the army.  

doesnt really imply that he wasnt in the military since the military isnt JUST the army and he could have joined or more likely been drafted into the army when he was 17 (in 1968)

[lil vader]

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

I appreciate the depth of your response.

 

No worries.

 

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

I didnt say tommy wasnt unyielding (badass) and that this would make him but it would add more color to his background and give is a better of an idea of how tommy thinks and his perspective on things

 

Well, you did..

 

On 12/30/2021 at 2:16 PM, Luis Vercetti said:

i like to think he did because it makes him sound more badass

 

But hey, that's fair enough if you personally think that participating in a conflict makes him more badass than what he already is.. but I'm just generally speaking that I wouldn't personally consider it badass whether it's one of his traits or his defining characteristic as a whole. However that being said, I do think that as a concept it does have the potential to work well. Lieutenant Dan from Forrest Gump immediately springs to mind. Rockstar and their style of games however tend to inadvertently glorify things such as crime. Not a bad thing under the context of this being a fictional video game, but without that context you have the potential of making awful things look good. Murder, vehicular homicide, etc. I mean think about how they handled Niko in GTA IV, his background of being a former soldier in the Yugoslav wars was handled with a lot of maturity and respect, it wasn't an aspect of his character that helped make him "badass" (he's badass in general) but instead it was a way to motivate the player and explain Niko's proficiency, personal philosophies etc. In the case of Vice City, if Tommy was a veteran it certainly would give us a better idea of his perspective but in my purview wouldn't be something to be "badass" or "cool".

 

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

there is a very little gap for tommy to join the military but keep in mind the vietnam war didnt end until 1975 and it also started in 1955.

 

I'm not interested in getting into the semantics about the Vietnam war itself, but the Gulf of Tonkin resolution wasn't signed until 1964 and as I said many consider '65 to be the beginning of the United States involvement as that was when US troops first landed. Tommy literally could not have been there prior.

 

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

the lowest age a person could join the military during the vietnam war was 17 years old meaning that tommy could have joined in 1968 and joined the forelli family somwhere between 1969 and 1971

 

As @Tycek pointed out, Tommy is not exactly the most patriotic protagonist. We'll never truly know his backstory because ultimately it is meaningless and has no relevance to Vice City as a whole, but it's incredibly unlikely Tommy would voluntarily join the military as soon as he was legally allowed to. If I recall correctly (bear in mind I haven't played VC fully in a while) Tommy makes a few lines that demonstrate his distaste, at least to the government. Not someone I'd expect to be at the front of the line for volunteer military service.

 

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

and also a very likely scenario is that tommy could have been drafted as USA did draft people into the military during this war and he could have fleed the military and joined the forelli family.

 

Erm, it's not a very likely scenario actually. It's a huge stretch to suggest that in three years, once again, Tommy would have had to have been trained as a soldier and sent off, then suddenly decided he was anti-war and came back home. If we're to take this line from the mission "Messing with the Man" at face value, Tommy got arrested, no? If Tommy was arrested in Vietnam how likely do you think it is exactly that he was arrested, shipped back home and just allowed to roam around the streets without any further penalty?

 

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

also a very likely scenario is that tommy could have been drafted as USA did draft people into the military during this war and he could have fleed the military and joined the forelli family.

 

The US government didn't begin drafting troops for Vietnam until 1969 when the first lottery was called. That's an incredibly small window for Tommy to have been drafted, get arrested (supposedly), come back as a free man and join the Forellis. To be quite frank with you, I think it would be easier rather than doing all these mental gymnastics to justify him somehow being in the military to just assume that Tommy joined the Forellis at a young age and worked with them as an associate for a few years ala Goodfellas. I mean by all means, believe what you want to believe, it's your head canon after all but the theory falls apart very quickly within the context of the story.

 

13 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

Maybe tommy could have been in the military reluctantly and this is why he tries to avoid talking about it since he doesnt oftenly talk about his past.

 

Tommy in general doesn't talk much about his past so I'll concede that in this regard you could almost certainly be correct, but given the small time frames I really have a hard time even trying to justify this theory to myself and attempting to validate it. I firmly believe that this was a plot point that didn't come to fruition and Rockstar games never intended the final version of Tommy Vercetti to be a Vietnam veteran, but rather a psychopathic mafioso who even the head of the most powerful mob family in Liberty City is afraid of.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by lil vader

[Luis Vercetti]

15 hours ago, lil vader said:

 

No worries.

 

 

Well, you did..

 

 

But hey, that's fair enough if you personally think that participating in a conflict makes him more badass than what he already is.. but I'm just generally speaking that I wouldn't personally consider it badass whether it's one of his traits or his defining characteristic as a whole. However that being said, I do think that as a concept it does have the potential to work well. Lieutenant Dan from Forrest Gump immediately springs to mind. Rockstar and their style of games however tend to inadvertently glorify things such as crime. Not a bad thing under the context of this being a fictional video game, but without that context you have the potential of making awful things look good. Murder, vehicular homicide, etc. I mean think about how they handled Niko in GTA IV, his background of being a former soldier in the Yugoslav wars was handled with a lot of maturity and respect, it wasn't an aspect of his character that helped make him "badass" (he's badass in general) but instead it was a way to motivate the player and explain Niko's proficiency, personal philosophies etc. In the case of Vice City, if Tommy was a veteran it certainly would give us a better idea of his perspective but in my purview wouldn't be something to be "badass" or "cool".

 

 

I'm not interested in getting into the semantics about the Vietnam war itself, but the Gulf of Tonkin resolution wasn't signed until 1964 and as I said many consider '65 to be the beginning of the United States involvement as that was when US troops first landed. Tommy literally could not have been there prior.

 

 

As @Tycek pointed out, Tommy is not exactly the most patriotic protagonist. We'll never truly know his backstory because ultimately it is meaningless and has no relevance to Vice City as a whole, but it's incredibly unlikely Tommy would voluntarily join the military as soon as he was legally allowed to. If I recall correctly (bear in mind I haven't played VC fully in a while) Tommy makes a few lines that demonstrate his distaste, at least to the government. Not someone I'd expect to be at the front of the line for volunteer military service.

 

 

Erm, it's not a very likely scenario actually. It's a huge stretch to suggest that in three years, once again, Tommy would have had to have been trained as a soldier and sent off, then suddenly decided he was anti-war and came back home. If we're to take this line from the mission "Messing with the Man" at face value, Tommy got arrested, no? If Tommy was arrested in Vietnam how likely do you think it is exactly that he was arrested, shipped back home and just allowed to roam around the streets without any further penalty?

 

 

The US government didn't begin drafting troops for Vietnam until 1969 when the first lottery was called. That's an incredibly small window for Tommy to have been drafted, get arrested (supposedly), come back as a free man and join the Forellis. To be quite frank with you, I think it would be easier rather than doing all these mental gymnastics to justify him somehow being in the military to just assume that Tommy joined the Forellis at a young age and worked with them as an associate for a few years ala Goodfellas. I mean by all means, believe what you want to believe, it's your head canon after all but the theory falls apart very quickly within the context of the story.

 

 

Tommy in general doesn't talk much about his past so I'll concede that in this regard you could almost certainly be correct, but given the small time frames I really have a hard time even trying to justify this theory to myself and attempting to validate it. I firmly believe that this was a plot point that didn't come to fruition and Rockstar games never intended the final version of Tommy Vercetti to be a Vietnam veteran, but rather a psychopathic mafioso who even the head of the most powerful mob family in Liberty City is afraid of.

 

 

 

 

I guess in the end we wont know until someone asks rockstar and the holy miracle comes that rockstar actually answers that question.

[billiejoearmstrong8]

16 hours ago, Luis Vercetti said:

I guess in the end we wont know until someone asks rockstar and the holy miracle comes that rockstar actually answers that question.

 

We do know. When the Vietnam War was mentioned Tommy said he was locked up during it. This rules out even the extremely unlikely scenario that he was there between the ages of 17 and 20 (very very unlikely - he was in thes streets committing the crimes that eventually led to him getting locked up during that time). If he had fought in the war at any time he would have said he fought in it when the subject came up. He wouldn't have just said he was locked up during it.You have the answer to your question.

Edited January 1 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Evil empire]

Tommy didn't fight in Vietnam but he can reproduce the Mỹ Lai massacre on his own when Mitch Baker asks him to bring the maximum chaos in Vice City.

[ɪʟ_Duca]

"I was locked up during 'nam. Ugly business." doesn't necessarly mean he fought the war at all or ever crossed the U.S. borders, it means DURING that period could had been in jail, so this implies that his 15 years of prison for the Hardwood massacre maybe was not the first time he was in jail. 

Taking for example the IRL stories of italian-american New York mobsters like John Gotti (draft evader and arrested) and Sammy Gravano (joined Army training instead of prison) there's something to do with his draft, maybe Tommy evaded it and was arrested or "locked up" is a saying of him to say something else, like he was "trapped" into military training against his will and obviusly not proud of it. Now this is important because it can possibly explain when he turned his life from normal citizen to criminal mind. 

We can estimate that Tommy is not 100% italian, but atleast we can assume that Tommy's past is not too much distrant from his present, so we can assume he's born in Liberty City from american mother and italian father (due to his surname), about his mother we only know from his quotes this line «...Blame my mother, i do.» that can lead to all sorts of speculation, including if she's still alive (example, Umberto Robina's father Alberto R. is still alive in 1986).

About his father we know a bit more due to the "Spilling the Beans" dialogue with Ernest Kelly, Tommy sais about printers: «Yeah, my old man USED to work on these. I used to spend the evening with him, cleaning the rollers... I was going to follow him in his trade, but... I lived a different life.» Then when asked what to do whit those printers he says: «I'm thinking WE might print something - a newspaper, a magazine...» this can lead to a bit of speculation, why a gangster like him would print "low grade crap" instead of money, maybe he's nostalgic of the years spent whit his father? Later on the mission "Cap the Collector" Tommy says to Earnest: «Don't worry, POP, I'm not angry with you» This consolidates him as father figure, we all know that. Later on when the Earnest Kelly cellphone call occurs, Earnest says: «Tommy, for a raging lunatic, you're pretty naive. I'll [...] teach you a thing or two about life, you hear»  and Tommy just repling with a "take care", doen't his search of a father figure maybe implies at some point of his past his father died?

On his naivity, at the beginning of the story he's still a bit royal to the Forelli's family and Sonny but only in the end he escpicitly admits Sonny was the instigator of the hambush.

During the time Tommy lived with his parents, do he lived like a normal citizen or instead embraced the mod lifestyle from scholar age? And again we don't know for sure if his father is still alive or how had died, we don't know how was the relationship whit law of Tommy's parents, maybe his mother had mob connections and that's why he blame her? Suppositions.

 

Returning to the presumed Tommy's Vietman war draft evasion and arrestion and incarceration (or alternatively a much similar story to Sammy "The Bull" Gravano enlist in the Army), we can only speculate on his relationship with law and generally his relationships with the mob lifestyle before 1971, how his life played before his 17th year of age and those 3 years after 1968, from his attitude torward the Forelli family, we can even speculate on him at some point being an orphan when at minor age or at least without relatives around his adolecence, then joined his new "family" still being a minor as teenage street gang member, this would on one hand decline the theory Tommy had to do with the draft, and on the other hand would add a new layer of betrayal he encountered at Hardwood. So in conclusion, there's a very little possibility he truly had to deal with the draft, but most likely not, because this implies that he had to spend more than half of his life in prison lasting very little time to live outside.

 

Or maybe not, he was sent to 'nam in '68/'69 but made an incredible return home as disappeared deserter or POW, we'll never truly know.

[universetwisters]

On 12/30/2021 at 1:16 AM, lil vader said:

The official game guide states Tommy Vercetti is 35 years old in 1986

 

ftfy

 

 

Otherwise, nonononononononono! He was a teenager during the first half of vietnam and in jail for the second half

[Comrade Monke]

On 12/30/2021 at 8:16 AM, lil vader said:

That does pose an interesting question though of why exactly Tommy Vercetti would say this line. I spent about half an hour googling this and I'm incredibly surprised at the lack of any discussion around this topic given that GTA fans tend to scrutinize and pick apart a lot of aspects of their favorite characters.

I always viewed Tommy's "Ugly business" comment as showing that he was opposed to the American involvement in the war like many people at the time that opposed the American involvement in the Vietnam war.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War