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A Note/Update from Rockstar regarding the Trilogy Definitive Edition


Wesk_
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9 minutes ago, ChiroVette said:

 

I totally agree with your second point, but to segue into your first, The backlash we saw after the E&E trailer was still a blip on the radar, compared to this. Rockstar could actually have weathered that storm, if for no other reason than E&E would sell massive amounts of copies to a plethora of players who don't know any better, AND to the savvy GTAO player, who knows damned well that not buying E&E means being left out in the cold for future GTAO updates and content coming in 2022 and beyond.

 

Now, if you want to argue that E&E is virtually meaningless to SP GTA fans, unless Rockstar bucks their old tradition of no SP content for GTA V, period, the end. But even so. What is the largest revenue stream to Take2 now? Shark Cards. So regardless of how lackluster E&E ends up being, they would not have lost all that much future revenue.

 

But this DE launch, now that's a completely different story. If the backlash toward E&E a month or two back was a warning shot across the bow of Take2, then this vitriol anger, disappointment, and almost universal contempt for Rockstar and Take2 right now is a direct hit. They have to respond and do something drastic, at least regarding this Trilogy. Otherwise, I think they will simply descend into irrelevancy, though still maintaining huge profits for their board members and shareholders.


Right but you're arguing from the perspective of R* whereas I'm saying that a part of the fanbase just died since E&E and now the DE mess has simply confirmed their decisions. Rockstar can earn a good chunk of their fanboys back if they play their cards right but some fans had moved on. Which doesn't mean much for Rockstar statistically but it does mean that this forum is probably sing a lot less praise of Rockstar from now on even if they manage to fix everything. 

Also if anything, they might just annonce GTA 6 and then we may witness this whole DE mess be a mere blip in the radar as well. But significant parts of the fanbase will keep dying, it will slowly add-up.

Edited by Ryo256
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ChiroVette
15 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


Right but you're arguing from the perspective of R* whereas I'm saying that a part of the fanbase just died since E&E and now the DE mess has simply confirmed their decisions. Rockstar can earn a good chunk of their fanboys back if they play their cards right but some fans had moved on. Which doesn't mean much for Rockstar statistically but it does mean that this forum is probably sing a lot less praise of Rockstar from now on even if they manage to fix everything. 

Also if anything, they might just annonce GTA 6 and then we may witness this whole DE mess be a mere blip in the radar as well. But significant parts of the fanbase will keep dying, it will slowly add-up.

 

It's not even so much that I am arguing from their perspective, although there is a little of that in my position. I am far more concerned about how this will impact future GTA releases. Whether those releases be GTA VI, GTAO updates, and even E&E. For the record, I am also considering the possibility of HUGE improvements to DE as sort of future releases as well, though, that is a bit of a stretch. Don't get me wrong, I'm a customer, not a fan. I don't give a crap about Rockstar, Take2, or whatever it is that substitutes for morality in the brains of the suits in Take2 and Rockstar. Unless we are talking about the possibility of substantive changes to the way they conduct GTA business in the future.

 

If the hatred, rage, disappointment and criticisms all collectively heaped upon them, whether for E&E or The Trilogy DE, means anything at all to me, it is only important if it all acts as the impetus for them to make substantive changes to how future GTA is administered, for lack of a better word.

 

If this is nothing but a sign that Rockstar isn't ever going be even a shadow of the Rockstar we all admired and revered for most of GTA's illustrious history, then best we find out sooner rather than later, right? So the ball is in their court. The way I see it is that they have enough rope now to easily hang themselves or run with and prove that they can still aspire to the greatness we all once attributed to them ***Shrug*** Time will tell, I guess.

Edited by ChiroVette
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12 minutes ago, ChiroVette said:

If this is nothing but a sign that Rockstar isn't ever going be even a shadow of the Rockstar we all admired and revered for most of GTA's illustrious history, then best we find out sooner rather than later, right? 


That's the thing, some people have already got their answer. And it's not pretty.

They might patch up DE but they can't afford to keep doing this cycle of stupidity over and over again. But problem is that they will do it again, because they are incompetent to think that their fans will forgive them otherwise that E&E trailer and DE mess wouldn't made it to public in the way that they did. They will keep screwing their consumers, and everytime they will do it, they will lose a part of the fanbase while fanboys will stay after they give their "sorry, not sorry" speech. Because the solution is not a band-aid to DE mess, it is for them to reconsider their entire philosopy of wanting to maximize profit with minimum effort (or in this case, sub-mininum) and actually consider giving some respect to their customers. And we both know they will never fix that, it's just like Blizzard that's suffering right now.

A lepoard can't change its spots.

Edited by Ryo256
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9 hours ago, PkUnzipper said:

[...] the industry has rotted.

 

If you paint the industry with a broad brush, sure. The same stuff is said about the music industry and it generally comes from the people who spout out stuff like "the corps have brainwashed people into liking what they put out", while moaning that there's no good music, or good games to play, or whatever.

 

There's plenty of it in both industries, you just have to do something the people who cry brainwash are seemingly incapable of; thinking for your self and going out and finding what stuff you like.

 

9 hours ago, PkUnzipper said:

To point where AAA Devs/publishers have brainwashed the new gen of gamers that MVPs ARE the norm.

 

Again, this is an argument that tends to come from people who are guilty of what they're trying to say, it's steeped in irony. This line of thinking is as guilty of the "brain washed" stuff as the group you're supposedly calling out are.

 

Note, before it gets thrown at me, I am not defending EA, Take-Two, Acti Blizzard et al, they're bad publishers who have become a rot in the industry, but they are not the industry.

 

9 hours ago, PkUnzipper said:

And loot boxes etc are the way of the future.

 

Loot boxes specifically, probably not. It's happening slower than we'd all like but there's increasing concern over the impact of loot boxes ie gambling in video games with some countries already regulating them or banning them. Gambling monetisation in games, especially all age games like sports games, Fortnite etc are not sustainable long term.

 

9 hours ago, PkUnzipper said:

Just look at the ongoing success of Fallot 76, CoD, etc. Those brainwashed younger gen gamers (90%+ born after 2000) haver never experienced a non MVP quality of gaming.

 

Look at the bigger picture instead of the part of the picture you don't like. There's some massively successful games out there without any of the garbage, Minecraft (single player/online, limited mtx, huge modding community the devs support etc, relatively cheap), Skyrim, God of War, Horizon, Spider-Man, Forza Horizon 5, TLOU2, RDR2's SP, Nintendo titles, etc etc. There's loads of games that have found huge success, 10m+ sales etc, without having to resort to any of the modern garbage.

 

Which leads me to my overall problem with this type of mentality, the people who complain about this prefer to sit on their horse and act all high and mighty as if they know better, it reminds of when I spent a week or two in a Discord for a flat Earth community, lol.

 

I am completely onboard with calling out the garbage in the industry in an effort to improve it, I am completely onboard with that and support it entirely, but painting stuff with a broad brush by belittling an entire generation and slagging of the entire industry isn't a well thought out and put together opinion, it's brain washed garbage from the lowly parts of the internet.

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BananaSpud666

 

I honestly feel like this youtuber right now, I mean just wow

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1 hour ago, BananaSpud666 said:

 

I honestly feel like this youtuber right now, I mean just wow

 

I'm sure someone is going to say "Youtubers are bad" for whatever reason, but this video's also very good and honest:

 

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Your Conscience
1 hour ago, BananaSpud666 said:

 

I honestly feel like this youtuber right now, I mean just wow


is that the speedrunner / chaos mode guy? I disagree with him on a lot of topics but yeah, he's 100% on point when it comes to this

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arisfelbonilla
6 hours ago, PkUnzipper said:

Desafortunadamente, en mi opinión, es probable que se hunda y no se nade.

 

C * miles de millones en ganancias los han hecho demasiado gordos y perezosos con poca energía. Para señalar dónde, incluso si Houser realmente se preocupó por restaurar C * a sus días de gloria VC / SA / GTA3 / Bully, etc., la industria se ha podrido. Para señalar dónde los desarrolladores / editores de AAA le han lavado el cerebro a la nueva generación de jugadores que los MVP SON la norma. Y las cajas de botín, etc. son el camino hacia el futuro. Solo mire el éxito continuo de Fallot 76, CoD, etc. Esos jugadores jóvenes con lavado de cerebro (90% + nacidos después del 2000) nunca han experimentado una calidad de juego que no sea MVP. Entonces, mientras muchos de ellos se quejan, continúan poniendo excusas / racionalizando, etc., por qué las compañías AAA están siendo criticadas injustamente. Y / o luego continuar comprando $ $ microtransacciones. 

 

Hay una razón por la que Fortnite, DOTA, ESO, etc., siguen siendo tan populares a nivel mundial hasta la fecha ...

 

 

gta 5 alike don't forget

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Mikeol1987

Is anyone else having Playstation (if you're on it) throw up road blocks to avoid refunding. I requested a refund for GTA Trilogy on monday (had to wait til monday from friday because... for whatever reason they don't take the refund requests at the weekend. dumb. So, today I get a "have you tried turning the console off and on?" situation and I flipped out. spent ages trying to connect on phone earlier, but told them I'm going to have to go through my bank or something to request the funds back. I've also Tweeted rockstar games telling them if Playstation don't sort it out they owe me £54.99.   Anyone else go for a refund for this title I've heard lots of people have been, and if you'd had such a bad experience?
This post could probably be it's own Topic, but Eh.

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BananaSpud666
On 11/20/2021 at 5:35 AM, Lock n' Stock said:

Screenshot-2021-11-20-at-10-31.jpg

I may have said earlier that Rockstar's apology felt scummy, but this gives off a different feeling from what I had

 

Apologies though

 

I didn't want to quote this, but I just had to get it out of the way real quick

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We seriously need that update. GTA: San Andreas got so unstable after reaching badlands. The game just keeps fatal crashing while playing Catalina missions. 

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sabitsuki

I just think it's great that the big name Youtubers and gaming news outlets are also calling Take 2/Rockstar out on the modding purge.

 

Even they think it's f*cked up.

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ChiroVette
10 hours ago, Ryo256 said:


That's the thing, some people have already got their answer. And it's not pretty.

They might patch up DE but they can't afford to keep doing this cycle of stupidity over and over again. But problem is that they will do it again, because they are incompetent to think that their fans will forgive them otherwise that E&E trailer and DE mess wouldn't made it to public in the way that they did. They will keep screwing their consumers, and everytime they will do it, they will lose a part of the fanbase while fanboys will stay after they give their "sorry, not sorry" speech. Because the solution is not a band-aid to DE mess, it is for them to reconsider their entire philosopy of wanting to maximize profit with minimum effort (or in this case, sub-mininum) and actually consider giving some respect to their customers. And we both know they will never fix that, it's just like Blizzard that's suffering right now.

A lepoard can't change its spots.

 

Yes, but people can learn from mistakes, and now that Rockstar and Take2 are behind the 8 Ball a little, they have a chance to step up and make substantive improvements, changes, and fixes to the current Trilogy. You may very well be right that to some people, as you said, they already have their answers. But you know what? I don't have my answer yet. I am waiting very cautiously and patiently to see how Rockstar and Take2 handle this current skewering they are rightfully taking in the media, from players, and from GTA fans. This is the first time in the history of the company that they are in this unenviable position.

 

Maybe you are convinced that Rockstar is your metaphorical leopard, and maybe you're correct. But I am not, and so I will wait and see what they come up with, both for fixes and patches for DE and to E&E this March. I won't lie. It will not take me by surprise if you're right. But lets just say, I am willing to give them the chance to make all this crap right. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. But I have the advantage of not having purchased DE, so I have no buyer's remorse like so many players do. So I can afford to wait and see whether they step up and be the Rockstar of old, or simply choke and make perfunctory, insubstantial changes to DE; and if E&E ends up a lot better than the original trailer looks, or is just lackluster rehashing with a slight facelift over GTAV/GTAO.

 

Only time will tell, but I can see this going either way.

Edited by ChiroVette
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Mikeol1987

I'm starting to think this is intentional bad marketing to Hype GTA6 and "grove street games" is mitigation tactics for the (THIS) fallout, Either way, Rockstar Games have lost someone that has been there since before they were. For Perspective I created this account 5 years after they took over DMA Design... what a ride it's been, but it is definitely over. Nothing but trash like this from now on, or Visually stunning, Empty-ish games like RDR2 for the future. GTA6 Will suck. I'm even thinking about stopping gaming altogether because of

it. rip off merchants. All the people that made Rockstar and GTA Great have gone, because like us, they saw the GTAOnline monster and said something about it, and were silenced because of it. If there is a GTA6, It's going to be such a relentlessly stinky sh*t that it will be obvious to anyone still clinging onto the idea that Rockstar Games are still a good games company. Unless they seriously fix their sh*t.

Does THIS ring a bell?

.

.

.

.

Edited by Mikeol1987
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ZaxxerDog
1 hour ago, Mikeol1987 said:

I'm starting to think this is intentional bad marketing to Hype GTA6 and "grove street games" is mitigation tactics for the (THIS) fallout, Either way, Rockstar Games have lost someone that has been there since before they were. For Perspective I created this account 5 years after they took over DMA Design... what a ride it's been, but it is definitely over. Nothing but trash like this from now on, or Visually stunning, Empty-ish games like RDR2 for the future. GTA6 Will suck. I'm even thinking about stopping gaming altogether because of

it. rip off merchants. All the people that made Rockstar and GTA Great have gone, because like us, they saw the GTAOnline monster and said something about it, and were silenced because of it. If there is a GTA6, It's going to be such a relentlessly stinky sh*t that it will be obvious to anyone still clinging onto the idea that Rockstar Games are still a good games company.

Well tbh the "classic" Rockstar was over around the time Max Payne 3 and LA Noire released and kinda flopped. Ever since then it's just GTA or Red Dead while the smaller / experimental stuff just ceased to exist seemingly in favor of GTAO updates. This company would never release Manhunt today, hell Bully couldn't even get past the conceptual stage.

 

On the other hand the technology is at the point now where indies could take up the mantle of even old school GTA so who knows, maybe we'll see a "spritiual successor" to Rockstar in that space. And let's not forget Dan Houser's new company, maybe something is cooking there that Rockstar fans will appreciate.

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BananaSpud666
2 hours ago, Mikeol1987 said:

I'm even thinking about stopping gaming altogether because of it, Rip off merchants.

I wouldn't exactly quit, but I would never want to touch any of Rockstar's property nowadays 

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Mikeol1987
6 hours ago, ZaxxerDog said:

Well tbh the "classic" Rockstar was over around the time Max Payne 3 and LA Noire released and kinda flopped. Ever since then it's just GTA or Red Dead while the smaller / experimental stuff just ceased to exist seemingly in favor of GTAO updates. This company would never release Manhunt today, hell Bully couldn't even get past the conceptual stage.

 

On the other hand the technology is at the point now where indies could take up the mantle of even old school GTA so who knows, maybe we'll see a "spritiual successor" to Rockstar in that space. And let's not forget Dan Houser's new company, maybe something is cooking there that Rockstar fans will appreciate.

Yeah I totally agree with that estimate on the time line of f*ckery. I wasn't in the loop on Dan's new company, Links to any articles would be appreciated :)

 

and don't get me wrong, I don't feel bad about the scathing review of my own of rockstar as I've always been this way since the start, and personally feel I, like many of us out there on here, was actually a small cog in a massive part in the success AND direction of the franchise. So they need a spanking. But I honestly think that's the last time they can screw me over. Bearing in mind not just GTA5 from 2013 to now, but The original trilogy I've invested in for them more than once, first generation, 10 year anniversary, android versions, ipad version, PS Store versions, Steam versions... So to do what they've done is actually kind of offensive at this point, and it should be to any true fan of GTA.

I remember them sending me practically all of the San Andreas promotional merchandise & a tonne of stickers for free when I helped them out with some pre-release san andreas f*ckery back in 2004. hand written note too. My how those days are over.

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On 11/24/2021 at 4:30 PM, Jason said:

Look at the bigger picture instead of the part of the picture you don't like. There's some massively successful games out there without any of the garbage, Minecraft (single player/online, limited mtx, huge modding community the devs support etc, relatively cheap), Skyrim, God of War, Horizon, Spider-Man, Forza Horizon 5, TLOU2, RDR2's SP, Nintendo titles, etc etc. There's loads of games that have found huge success, 10m+ sales etc, without having to resort to any of the modern garbage.

I agree with the sentiment that you should seek out what you like rather than disregard an entire industry (even if I don't agree that most of the industry is in the best shape right now) but I can't agree with the examples you've given. I think that while you've astutely pointed out some of the various issues within the market today, you haven't considered a few other of the most dangerous trends that have taken much of the industry by storm. To be fair, I don't think the post you replied to was well argued anyway. 

 

GoW, Horizon, and TLOU2 are all Sony exclusives and movie games. On top of being a pawn in the console war, they're all games that prioritize cutscenes over their actual gameplay. While they're indisputably carried by their stories, their stories don't even have to be well-written. Much of the outrage over TLOU2 was because of how poorly written various aspects of the plot were. Skyrim is a 2011 game that gets sold and resold every couple of years. It doesn't help that in recent years, it's had Creation Club introduced which essentially acts as a paid mod service. It's gameplay has also been largely simplified in comparison to previous Elder Scrolls games. And it set the precedent for RPG simplification which in my mind, set the seeds for games like Cyberpunk 2077, and Fallout 4/76, which were heavily dumbed down for contemporary audiences.

 

Gaming is a medium has become such a mainstream form of entertainment that games have become more about pleasing everyone than pleasing a specific share of the market, hence why the difficulty of games has dropped in recent years too in favor of awkward cutscenes and gameplay crutches. Call of Duty titles and sports games are pushed out every year with zero effort. It's not just online games that are leaving the western gaming market creatively bankrupt.  

 

DMC 5, Resident Evil 2 Remake, Nier: Automata, Psychonauts 2,. Those are the games that I would've used to better highlight your point. 

Edited by SageFan
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51 minutes ago, SageFan said:

GoW, Horizon, and TLOU2 are all Sony exclusives and movie games. On top of being a pawn in the console war, they're all games that prioritize cutscenes over their actual gameplay.

 

That is a highly objective take. I haven't played TLOU2 so I won't comment there, but Horizon and God of War had great gameplay, God of War with it's satisfying weapons (the Axe in particular), abilities and combos, Horizon with it's multiple weapons you can use to take down a variety of machines (tho the melee sucked). If there's any part of Sony first party that is very open to criticism it's the formulaic approach to their lite RPG aspects and level design, they often use the same style gear and crafting systems and open world content. Regardless, they are still examples of good games that are good examples of "what you see is what you get" games, you buy it and you get the game, no extras. There's certainly a discussion to be had about the negative impact of exclusivity but this is slowly getting better as we are seeing Sony slowly bring these games to PC.

 

57 minutes ago, SageFan said:

It's not just online games that are leaving the western gaming market creatively bankrupt.

 

bruh

 

The Asian market makes the western market look like a bloody utopia when it comes to that stuff. Farmed out cheap mobile games, pay to win all over the place, insane over monetisation including high prices, etc etc. Most new MMORPG's are from that part of the world and they find success by preying on the huge interest for a modern AAA MMO from the MMO community and then milk the absolute f*ck out of them with some the outright worst monetisation of any games period.

 

That's not to say that's entirely descriptive of the Asian games industry at all, though, just like why painting the western industry with a broad brush is silly.

 

55 minutes ago, SageFan said:

DMC 5, Resident Evil 2 Remake, Nier: Automata, Psychonauts 2,. Those are the games that I would've used to better highlight your point. 

 

If your overall issue with what I said is the games I picked, particularly the RPG's, then;

 

Divinity Original Sin 2, Pillars of Eternity 2, Pathfinder: Kingmaker and the upcoming Baldurs Gate 3 are fantastic examples of great modern RPG's. Div OS2 and PoE2 are more AA than AAA but the upcoming BG3 definitely seems like the first AAA CRPG in yonks. There's also some decent AA RPG's like Greedfall and a few others from small European devs, they've got jank and cut corners due to their much lower budgets but they're still often decent games that don't come with the baggage. And that's just listing RPG's of the top of my head.

 

Again, the tl;dr is that there's plenty of good games out there but you just gotta take a bit of time and look, try new stuff, open your horizons, etc. Some of the absolute most fun I've had in the past few years in games is from playing stuff I've never played before.

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On 11/19/2021 at 9:16 AM, Wesk_ said:

https://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/393o373751k48k/a-note-from-the-rockstar-games-team-re-grand-theft-auto-the-trilogy-th?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=o_social&utm_campaign=gta-trilogy_announcement_update-20211119

 

a couple important infos from article regarding incoming updates

We have ongoing plans to address the technical issues and to improve each game going forward. With each planned update, the games will reach the level of quality that they deserve to be.

A new Title Update is on the way in the coming days for all versions of Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy – The Definitive Edition that will address a number of issues. We will update everyone as soon as it is live.

 

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BananaSpud666
13 minutes ago, Wakka387 said:

 

"We're Sorry"

 

NOT

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arisfelbonilla
19 hours ago, ZaxxerDog said:

Bueno, tbh el "clásico" Rockstar terminó cuando Max Payne 3 y LA Noire lanzaron y fracasaron un poco. Desde entonces, es solo GTA o Red Dead, mientras que las cosas más pequeñas / experimentales simplemente dejaron de existir aparentemente a favor de las actualizaciones de GTAO. Esta compañía nunca lanzaría Manhunt hoy, diablos Bully ni siquiera podría pasar de la etapa conceptual.

 

Por otro lado, la tecnología está ahora en un punto en el que los indies podrían tomar el manto de GTA incluso de la vieja escuela, así que quién sabe, tal vez veamos un "sucesor espiritual" de Rockstar en ese espacio. Y no olvidemos la nueva compañía de Dan Houser, tal vez se esté cocinando algo allí que los fanáticos de Rockstar apreciarán.

spiritual successor? ha
now here near

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ZaxxerDog
4 hours ago, Jason said:

 

That is a highly objective take. I haven't played TLOU2 so I won't comment there, but Horizon and God of War had great gameplay, God of War with it's satisfying weapons (the Axe in particular), abilities and combos, Horizon with it's multiple weapons you can use to take down a variety of machines (tho the melee sucked). If there's any part of Sony first party that is very open to criticism it's the formulaic approach to their lite RPG aspects and level design, they often use the same style gear and crafting systems and open world content. Regardless, they are still examples of good games that are good examples of "what you see is what you get" games, you buy it and you get the game, no extras. There's certainly a discussion to be had about the negative impact of exclusivity but this is slowly getting better as we are seeing Sony slowly bring these games to PC.

I just... I just really want to know when will people finally get tired of the "over the shoulder camera cinematic game" simply because I'd love to see something from Sony that's NOT that. This will be a tangent but remember the time before Uncharted when most games were "new" even in their control schemes? Like you had to learn the controls and it wasn't just "yeah I know what the sticks and the triggers do, it's the 50th game". Now even Sony's fixed camera spectacle fighter God of War is just an over the shoulder action adventure game which is fine but it also sucks really hard. They also made Kratos into this character with the feels because in order to reach a wider audience it seems like you have to touch on those heartstrings and if you look at the game from that perspective suddenly every single one of Sony's AAA exclusive stuff becomes this very formulaic, samey stuff where most of the systems feel familiar, the gameplay is usually solid but nothing too complicated and the storytelling revolves around some simple melodrama most people can relate to. That's a bit sad to see especially when it happens to someone like Kratos where they really had to force him into being this "gamer dad lol" while that had absolutely no place in his original character since he used to be a psychopathic murderer with almost no redeeming qualities.

 

The bigger problem though is that it seems like thanks to Sony AAA storytelling has become this very pretentious "Oscar bait" stuff and that's just not challenging for any audience whatsoever. And Rockstar kinda started to follow this template, in the last decade their focus was mostly on creating these "prestige games" with GTA 4, RDR and GTA 5 but the balance was always right in that you got your more realistic story but they never even tried to redeem characters like Niko, Michael, Franklin or Trevor and the more "serious" storytelling never really affected the sandbox gameplay or the sense that GTA's world is very much satire. RDR 2 on the other hand? A lot of that game just wants to be very serious, the gameplay focuses on unnecessary detail to the point where it affects pacing and players won't really like that stuff but it sure as hell will look nice when they are giving out those industry awards. At its worst moments RDR 2 feels like Naughty Dog's pretentious, surface level game design and that ain't great.

 

Compare that to something like Manhunt which is this super niche, utterly nihilistic revenge story where most of the context you don't even get from the storytelling but from the atmosphere, the presentation and the world building. They didn't make that game for awards, thinking back on how bad the outrage for violent games was back then (and Manhunt wasn't GTA, it never hid its violence behind a thick curtain of satire) and how survival horror wasn't popular anymore it wasn't even financially sound to release it. It almost seems like they wanted to make it because the concept was strong enough to create a survival horror masterpiece around it.

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9 hours ago, ZaxxerDog said:

I just... I just really want to know when will people finally get tired of the "over the shoulder camera cinematic game" simply because I'd love to see something from Sony that's NOT that.

 

...What would you like instead? 4th person perspective? 2nd person perspective? Over the shoulder is simply third person perspective, I suppose you could argue it's more zoomed in than say a classic GTA camera but given it some "cinematic" feel but at the same time I wouldn't want every third person game to have a zoomed out camera like GTA.

 

9 hours ago, ZaxxerDog said:

This will be a tangent but remember the time before Uncharted when most games were "new" even in their control schemes? Like you had to learn the controls and it wasn't just "yeah I know what the sticks and the triggers do, it's the 50th game".

 

Yea, back when we first got joysticks and triggers about 20 years ago. Control schemes have barely changed since because of the limitations of the inputs, resulting in games that need four pairs of hands to play because they're trying to make 5790276297 things possible on one controller, the UFC games are prime examples of this but I'd argue some new titles like Halo Infinite struggle with the increasingly dated standard controller layouts.

 

I was really hoping for paddles as standard on the new PS5 and Xbox Series controllers to help alleviate this issue and open up more options control wise but alas, we get touchpads and "immersive" triggers instead. Nothing here will change without innovation with the ways we actually physically interact with games, devs have exhausted all possibilities with the current controllers.

 

Motion controllers with individual finger controls are probably the long term solution here but I dunno when we'll see those as standard, especially for non-VR platforms.

 

9 hours ago, ZaxxerDog said:

And Rockstar kinda started to follow this template, in the last decade their focus was mostly on creating these "prestige games" with GTA 4, RDR and GTA 5 but the balance was always right in that you got your more realistic story but they never even tried to redeem characters like Niko, Michael, Franklin or Trevor and the more "serious" storytelling never really affected the sandbox gameplay or the sense that GTA's world is very much satire. RDR 2 on the other hand? A lot of that game just wants to be very serious, the gameplay focuses on unnecessary detail to the point where it affects pacing and players won't really like that stuff but it sure as hell will look nice when they are giving out those industry awards. At its worst moments RDR 2 feels like Naughty Dog's pretentious, surface level game design and that ain't great.

 

Compare that to something like Manhunt which is this super niche, utterly nihilistic revenge story where most of the context you don't even get from the storytelling but from the atmosphere, the presentation and the world building. They didn't make that game for awards, thinking back on how bad the outrage for violent games was back then (and Manhunt wasn't GTA, it never hid its violence behind a thick curtain of satire) and how survival horror wasn't popular anymore it wasn't even financially sound to release it. It almost seems like they wanted to make it because the concept was strong enough to create a survival horror masterpiece around it.

 

Everything here is objective and while I do agree there's definitely an issue of "award bait" games and I do think Naughty Dog are guilty of it, I'd actually argue that the worst scene in the industry for this is the indie scene ever since Journey.

 

Regarding RDR2 being serious, what exactly is wrong with that? They have other franchises to not be so serious in, I don't want everything Rockstar puts out to be of the same tone. For me it's probably the best game I've ever played because of the story and open world, and having played it extensively I'd say it has plenty of colour and fun moments too.

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ZaxxerDog
1 hour ago, Jason said:

 

...What would you like instead? 4th person perspective? 2nd person perspective? Over the shoulder is simply third person perspective, I suppose you could argue it's more zoomed in than say a classic GTA camera but given it some "cinematic" feel but at the same time I wouldn't want every third person game to have a zoomed out camera like GTA.

Haha no they can keep the camera if they want, what I meant with "over the shoulder camera cinematic game" is the "package" that's coming with = every single high profile Sony exclusive is the same game now with a cinematic camera and dramatic storytelling. As for what would I like well there is certainly a few more genres they could explore but really I'd just like to see them experiment with new IP or with bringing back old genres. How would a new Killzone look like in 2022 for example? What about a 3D platformer? A strategy game on consoles? It's weird that out of the green and blue teams only Microsoft is trying these things now while Sony likes to bet on surefire stuff, even if they release something niche it's usually a remake now.

 

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Yea, back when we first got joysticks and triggers about 20 years ago.

That certainly affected things but that's not really what I meant. For example Rockstar still has a unique control scheme to its games by doing things like "tap to sprint" and the weighty / less direct character control but really that's kind of the last of the unique flavour we got, the rest of the industry is just the Gears of War / Uncharted control scheme. I remember SuperBunnyHop doing a great video on how weird it is that now a survival horror game has the same control scheme as an Uncharted like action-adventure title and yeah, that's the strangest thing.

 

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Regarding RDR2 being serious, what exactly is wrong with that?

I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, I just have a strong suspicion that RDR2's design was informed by what other companies are doing a bit too much.

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3 minutes ago, ZaxxerDog said:

Haha no they can keep the camera if they want, what I meant with "over the shoulder camera cinematic game" is the "package" that's coming with = every single high profile Sony exclusive is the same game now with a cinematic camera and dramatic storytelling. As for what would I like well there is certainly a few more genres they could explore but really I'd just like to see them experiment with new IP or with bringing back old genres. How would a new Killzone look like in 2022 for example? What about a 3D platformer? A strategy game on consoles? It's weird that out of the green and blue teams only Microsoft is trying these things now while Sony likes to bet on surefire stuff, even if they release something niche it's usually a remake now.

 

Fair enough, I've said it my self that Sony's 1st party is very formulaic so I can't argue there, but I think it's more to do with their shared "light" RPG design and open world mechanics than camera angle.

 

4 minutes ago, ZaxxerDog said:

That certainly affected things but that's not really what I meant. For example Rockstar still has a unique control scheme to its games by doing things like "tap to sprint" and the weighty / less direct character control but really that's kind of the last of the unique flavour we got, the rest of the industry is just the Gears of War / Uncharted control scheme. I remember SuperBunnyHop doing a great video on how weird it is that now a survival horror game has the same control scheme as an Uncharted like action-adventure title and yeah, that's the strangest thing.

 

Rockstar's controls are objectively not good though. Max Payne 3 is their best feeling game by a mile and it's because it does away with a lot of the typical R* baggage, like what I assume is a intentional push for a cinematic feeling camera which results in a free aim that feels horrific on a controller in RDR2. Tap to sprint is also archaic, I've been using the RB to sprint control scheme in GTA V / RDR2 for as long as both games have supported it. Games that require mashing face buttons while at the same time require movement and aiming (so thumbs on both sticks) aren't, for me, something to use as an example of great or interesting controls, it just results in stuff feeling clunky.

 

I absolutely don't think that every game has to feel like Call of Duty in the sense it's arcadey and weightless but yea, "it was better in the past!" is not something I find to be a particularly strong argument here. Lot of classic control layouts and configs have aged like poo.

 

7 minutes ago, ZaxxerDog said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, I just have a strong suspicion that RDR2's design was informed by what other companies are doing a bit too much.

 

I really, really don't tbh. I think it was a perfectly natural evolution of RDR1 in every way. I don't think Rockstar have ever been a company where you can throw around the idea that they care about what other developers are doing honestly, I think the remaster shenanigans are more Take-Two than R*, though who knows what we'll see with GTA VI given that a lot of R* old timers have left for various reasons, but even then I personally don't see that as a no win scenario. Could lead to fresh ideas.

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ZaxxerDog
1 hour ago, Jason said:

I absolutely don't think that every game has to feel like Call of Duty in the sense it's arcadey and weightless but yea, "it was better in the past!" is not something I find to be a particularly strong argument here. Lot of classic control layouts and configs have aged like poo.

I don't think that's true at all but rather that we developed a low tolerance level to "different" simply because everything feels the same now and as a result of that everything is just "pick up and play". When that's not true for something that's when you start seeing the "OMG these controls are trash" arguments usually. For example the grandpa of the modern controller layout, Resident Evil 4 surely feels clunky now to most people yet somehow the players who adapt and learn the game's controls usually a develop an "it's perfect how it is" sentiment towards it. That's because once you get the hang of it you won't feel that the controls put you at a disadvantage but rather appreciate how they make encounters a bit more tense. And making things a bit more tense is the best thing an action horror game can do. As a comparison the RE2 remake has to do some wonders with the zombie AI, the damage RNG and with the aiming in order to recreate that kind of tenseion with the modern control scheme.

 

When it comes to Rockstar I'm not saying that tap to sprint is great, I'm not a fan of it either but I appreciate that they have a unique touch like this. When it comes to the "sluggish" movement I think that's a different story and that stuff is essential to how they handle character animation and physics. Sure, Max Payne 3 feels different because it's a Max Payne game where direct control is king ever since the PC originals but I'm not sure if I'd like having that level of control in a modern GTA game. The only exception is GTA Online where I don't think that the GTA 5 controls work at all but that's a different story.

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7 minutes ago, ZaxxerDog said:

Sure, Max Payne 3 feels different because it's a Max Payne game where direct control is king ever since the PC originals but I'm not sure if I'd like having that level of control in a modern GTA game. 

 

I would! 

 

I want GTA to have the gunplay of MP3, which for me remains the absolute best third person shooter I've ever played in terms of gunplay. Not this lock on rubbish that takes the skill out of the game. Keep the lock on as an option for those who want it, sure, but at least make free aim really good like we know they can for those who want to turn it off.

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Claude_Lib

Since we're speaking about controls, a slightly off-topic question. Does anyone else just hate the way the character steers automatically when, say, walking up the stairs to Floyd's apartment in GTA V? Or that's just me? I heard that RDR2, to make the experience more cinematic, is even heavier on this.

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