how do you feel about the downs family?

[Lemoyne outlaw]

so im replaying the story again. and i have been thinking a lot about the downs family. i am replaying the edith missions in chapter 6. i feel mixed. on one hand i do feel bad for them. they had no money. thomas was sick and died. he seemed like a good man. but on the other hand. thomas also did borrow money. and he knew what would happen. like arthur said its not charity. and he gives arthur tb. i have seen many people debate whether he spat on arthur on purpose or accident. i feel like it was on purpose. it was like his trump card. but it still could have been accidental. then edith says crap to arthur saying that he killed him. even though arthur was not responsible for his sickness. nor was he responsible for their debts. sure the beatings werent good. but its not like arthur just decided to rob them or attack them for no reason. and he was going to die anyway.

 

and even in the annesburg missions. both archie and edith are rude to arthur. even though he does a lot for them. and they still blame him. and ediths b*tching to arthur is annoying. although i do like how archie thanks arthur. even though arthur did not want to be thanked. and in the end arthur died because of thomas. i feel like i would like them more if not for arthurs tb or ediths constant yelling about how arthur killed her husband. sometimes i actually feel bad when i beat thomas up. but then i instantly remember how he made arthur suffer many times. what do you think about them?

[AmigaMix]

I mean, if my sick spouse / parent was beaten to the point of death by a violent criminal, I'd probably be a bit cranky too...

The Reason Thomas Downes took money from shady assholes in the first place, was because he was desperate (' can't imagine the bank would have accepted his sh*tty patch of land as collateral). - Money lenders pray on the weak and desperate.

 

I also seriously doubt a man who'd risk his neck by stepping into a fight between two raging lunatics (Tommy vs. Arthur), and did charity work for the poor (while being gravely ill), could do something as vile as to purposely infect another person with a horrible disease like tuberculosis.

 

Basically, I think the Downes family got f*cked over.

Edited November 14, 2021 by AmigaMix

[billiejoearmstrong8]

8 hours ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

 but on the other hand. thomas also did borrow money. and he knew what would happen. 

 

The thing is this really wasn't a choice for him though, the way it can be when people borrow money just to help buy something they want. He had nothing and with no welfare or govenment help available it was pure desperation when he had ZERO other options, other than letting himself and his family lose their home and livelihood and starve on the streets. He borrowed the money hoping he'd be able to find a way to pay it back somehow and that these moneylenders happened to be on the more forgiving side and weren't violent loansharks, but was unlucky that neither of those things were the case.

 

And Strauss/Arthur also knew what would happen when they loaned him the money - they deliberately loaned money to people who they knew wouldn't be able to pay it back in order to make a bigger profit when they racked up late fees/interest (even if they didn't have any money they could take property from them worth much more). What's worse is they acted like they were doing these people a favour, when they really had no consideration for them whatsoever and were purely exploiting them for money.

 

I'd say loansharks who deliberately preyed upon the most poor and desperate people (instead of perhaps having some morals and only loaning to those who can afford to pay it back, unless they were indeed willing to do some charity) and chose to collect using intimidation and violence rather than in a lawful manner, hold 100% of the blame for any harm caused by their exploitative criminal "business".

 

Also considering that according to Dutch the gang lived by a noble philosophy and helped the poor like Robin Hood, and considering the money they had to start loaning in the first place all came from crime, you would think they'd have run things differently. If they'd wanted they could have offered loans to people only if they could prove there was a good enough chance they could pay it back, and actually done some of this Robin Hood stuff they alluded to by giving some financial aid to the very poor without an expectation of being paid back, perhaps to somewhat make up for the fact they lived by murdering and stealing. But no, they just chose to be the worst kind of loansharks and exploit the most vulnerable people. It's good that Arthur tried to make amends to the Downes family in the end but there was no way he could ever fully make up for what he did to them (and who knows how many other families), and he deserved to be hated by them.

[billiejoearmstrong8]

6 hours ago, AmigaMix said:

 

 

I also seriously doubt a man who'd risk his neck by stepping into a fight between two raging lunatics (Tommy vs. Arthur), and did charity work for the poor (while being gravely ill), could do something as vile as to purposely infect another person with a horrible disease like tuberculosis.

 

 

 

Yeah the infection was just bad luck for Arthur. TB isn't actually that contagious - it usually takes living in close quarters with someone and being repeatedly exposed to it over a period of time to catch it. Even then most people with healthy immune systems wouldn't catch it (it's a bacteria that the immune system can usually destroy), or if they did wouldn't necessarily have symptoms for weeks, months, or even years, and sometimes would never have symptoms. A strong healthy guy getting TB from only one exposure like that, and so quickly, is very unlikely. Thomas Downes wouldn't have been thinking he had a deadly poison ready to attack someone with lol, as TB doesn't usually work that way. He happened to cough/spit because he was extremely ill and it happened to be in Arthur's face because he was savagely beating him at the time. Arthur was just unlucky to catch it so easily. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Alexlecj]

10 hours ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

and even in the annesburg missions. both archie and edith are rude to arthur. even though he does a lot for them. and they still blame him. and ediths b*tching to arthur is annoying.

Walk in Annesburg for five minutes, and you'll understand why they are so pissed off. There's no town more hellish than that.

 

They were living decent lives, working their ranch in The Heartlands. Now one of them's a miner, and the other's a prostitute.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Alexlecj

[Sean800]

I agree that Edith was too harsh on Arthur sometimes, but come on, Thomas didn't give Arthur TB on purpose.

[Pedinhuh]

This is a very poor piss take that completely ignores the context of most characters it talks about.

 

Thinking Thomas spat on Arthur on purpose is really just asinine to even think about.

[Buddy Hightower]

20 minutes ago, Pedinhuh said:

This is a very poor piss take that completely ignores the context of most characters it talks about.

 

Thinking Thomas spat on Arthur on purpose is really just asinine to even think about.

BS go watch the mission again, he spat in his mouth on purpose, clear as day. As he should have, Arthur was a piece of crap criminal.

[billiejoearmstrong8]

34 minutes ago, Buddy Hightower said:

BS go watch the mission again, he spat in his mouth on purpose, clear as day. As he should have, Arthur was a piece of crap criminal.

 

It doesn't make any sense though because that really isn't an effective way to give someone TB. TB is usually caught through repeated exposures to it over a long period of time (eg living in close quarters with someone). And even then most people with a healthy immune system wouldn't develop symptoms, it's a bacteria and usually the immune system destroys it. Almost everyone got some exposure to TB during that time period, but most of the time their immune system simply got rid of it. Arthur was extremely unlucky to get it from that, and to develop very severe symptoms, and for it to happen so quickly (some creative liberty with the writing I guess). Not to mention most people had very little knowledge of how diseases worked/were spread anyway.

 

So people who had TB didn't think of it that way. They didn't think they had a special weapon of poison they could spit at someone in self defense. And Thomas Downes wouldn't have been thinking that. EVEN if he spat at him deliberately (which I don't think he did, he was just suffering in the fight and Arthur was in his face) it would've been as a "f*ck you" rather than with the belief it would give him the disease. And he wouldn't have dared to do that - Arthur could easily have beaten him to death and all he wanted was for him to stop, not to antagonise him more. Even Arthur knew it wasn't deliberate, hence not reacting to it. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Buddy Hightower]

30 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

It doesn't make any sense though because that really isn't an effective way to give someone TB. TB is usually caught through repeated exposures to it over a long period of time (eg living in close quarters with someone). And even then most people with a healthy immune system wouldn't develop symptoms, it's a bacteria and usually the immune system destroys it. Almost everyone got some exposure to TB during that time period, but most of the time their immune system simply got rid of it. Arthur was extremely unlucky to get it from that, and to develop very severe symptoms, and for it to happen so quickly (some creative liberty with the writing I guess). Not to mention most people had very little knowledge of how diseases worked/were spread anyway.

 

So people who had TB didn't think of it that way. They didn't think they had a special weapon of poison they could spit at someone in self defense. And Thomas Downes wouldn't have been thinking that. EVEN if he spat at him deliberately (which I don't think he did, he was just suffering in the fight and Arthur was in his face) it would've been as a "f*ck you" rather than with the belief it would give him the disease. And he wouldn't have dared to do that - Arthur could easily have beaten him to death and all he wanted was for him to stop, not to antagonise him more. Even Arthur knew it wasn't deliberate, hence not reacting to it. 

It's a video game though, not a science class.

The way I saw it was he spit directly into his mouth on purpose.

[billiejoearmstrong8]

20 minutes ago, Buddy Hightower said:

It's a video game though, not a science class.

The way I saw it was he spit directly into his mouth on purpose.

 

People using TB as a weapon just wasn't ever a thing though (because as mentioned it didn't work that way and most people didn't even know how diseases spread), it would be a bit outlandish to pretend it was in a game where historical accuracy is pretty decent. But even removing the science/historial accuracy part completely it still wouldn't make sense for him to antagonise Arthur at that moment. He was scared for his life and begging him to stop. And Arthur knew he didn't do it deliberately/to antagonise him, that's why he didn't get angrier or react to it other than to wipe it off.

 

Edit: Ok I just rewatched it. Imo it's really meant to be more of a cough than a spit. I think they just emphasised the spit part of the cough to make it obvious his spit went in Arthur's mouth. If it was a deliberate f*ck you spit Arthur would've been pissed off to say the least. And Downes would've been way too scared to do it.

Edited December 9, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Lemoyne outlaw]

4 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

People using TB as a weapon just wasn't ever a thing though (because as mentioned it didn't work that way and most people didn't even know how diseases spread), it would be a bit outlandish to pretend it was in a game where historical accuracy is pretty decent. But even removing the science/historial accuracy part completely it still wouldn't make sense for him to antagonise Arthur at that moment. He was scared for his life and begging him to stop. And Arthur knew he didn't do it deliberately/to antagonise him, that's why he didn't get angrier or react to it other than to wipe it off.

 

Edit: Ok I just rewatched it. Imo it's really meant to be more of a cough than a spit. I think they just emphasised the spit part of the cough to make it obvious his spit went in Arthur's mouth. If it was a deliberate f*ck you spit Arthur would've been pissed off to say the least. And Downes would've been way too scared to do it.

but if he had to spit. why not spit to his right or left? instead of right in front of arthur. he could have easily turned his head to spit somewhere else.

[Drimes]

I think Thomas Downes made a choice with his hands tied. Either borrow some money from a snake in a sheeps hide who falsely made him believe it could be repaid within time, or end up in the streets with his son and wife while he himself was dying. Let's not forget that Arthur was a horrible, selfish, and egotistical killing machine during the start of the game. The way he beats Thomas is disgusting, a simple excuse to let his inner brute out and continue his 'Angry, big, and strong' facade. He could've handed it much better. I felt really bad for the Downes family during my first proper playthrough, and I didn't expect to stumble upon Meredith in Saint Denis and Annesburg, but I sure was happy I could make my amends. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Drimes

[billiejoearmstrong8]

12 hours ago, Lemoyne outlaw said:

but if he had to spit. why not spit to his right or left? instead of right in front of arthur. he could have easily turned his head to spit somewhere else.

 

I think it was a sudden involuntary splutter. It looks less realistic than it could have because they wanted spit to go in Arthur's mouth and for it to be seen clearly, but I think it's intended to come off as accidental. I just don't think he would dare to do it deliberately, or that Arthur wouldn't pick up on it being deliberate.

[Badman_]

They're one of the victims of the violence and hatred spread by Dutch and the gang. They were also a determinant element in Arthur's life. I know tuberculosis is a terrible disease but it was also what made Arthur question how he felt about the world around him, and what made him change into a more fulfilled version of himself.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Wolfman_
English.

[Sean800]

Arthur was unlucky though. 

 

First he moved to Lemoyne's area, that slowly accellerated the disease. Then he literally got caught in a ship wreck, then landed on Guarma which was a death sentence for him.

[Edward RDRIII]

As much as I love Arthur and considering he is my favorite character of all time, I hate what he did to the Downes family and I think he got what he deserved in the end, he killed Thomas Downes directly and Thomas Downes killed him indirectly. Hosea, John, Lenny, Uncle, Sean, Molly and Kieran were the only ones who didn't deserve to die like they did, because they were never genuinely bad towards anyone as far as I remember.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Dudu RDRII
Comment corrected.

[ChumCrumpet]

This actually brings up a question I've been thinking about. Strauss only gives money to the desperate, because they're the ones who will sign off on the sh*tty repayment plans, but how do they actually make any money off this? You give $100 to a poor farmer with no income, but somehow seem surprised when you're not getting your $150 back? They clearly have no money and no means of repayment. Seems like a real bad way to make anything. Plus you're just risking manpower by having to go out and beat no money out of these people.

 

But on topic, the Downes family are fine. Just another one caught up in the web of moneylending. I do have a slight anger towards Thomas but he didn't do what he did on purpose. If Arthur had learned what he learned earlier, he wouldn't have contracted TB.

[Failed Again]

If only he was wearing his "Mask"

[sabitsuki]

Arthur should have practiced social distancing

[Cutter De Blanc]

Honestly? They kind of annoy me. Maybe it's because they shine a negative light on all the bad evil (fun) sh*t Arthur is getting into. Make you feel bad about all the ultraviolence. But that's just me. I love running around robbing and shooting people so I might be a bit more biased in favor of the outlaw lifestyle.

 

The kid was kinda ballsy which was cool, I wondered if he was gonna be the one to kill Arthur at first. 

 

I don't think Thomas coughed in Arthur's mouth intentionally,  it isn't in his character to do so. Thomas was a very good and righteous man. I think he would have been upset if he'd known he'd condemned Arthur to death.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Cutter De Blanc

[billiejoearmstrong8]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:04 AM, ChumCrumpet said:

This actually brings up a question I've been thinking about. Strauss only gives money to the desperate, because they're the ones who will sign off on the sh*tty repayment plans, but how do they actually make any money off this? You give $100 to a poor farmer with no income, but somehow seem surprised when you're not getting your $150 back? They clearly have no money and no means of repayment. Seems like a real bad way to make anything. Plus you're just risking manpower by having to go out and beat no money out of these people.

 

But on topic, the Downes family are fine. Just another one caught up in the web of moneylending. I do have a slight anger towards Thomas but he didn't do what he did on purpose. If Arthur had learned what he learned earlier, he wouldn't have contracted TB.

 

I think maybe some do pay it back but it's late so they'd take extra as interest and make more overall that way? Or they take possessions from them that are worth more than the loan? Dodgy loan companies and loan sharks do it in real life so I guess it must work somehow.