Will Psycho Killer make the remaster?

[sabitsuki]

C'mon guys. This is 2020s Take-Two we're talking about. All this censoring is just for show.

Edited November 2, 2021 by sabitsuki

[DexMacLeod]

1 hour ago, Journey_95 said:

Dude they already confirmed that they will be changing the games for "modern sensibilities" (their words, not mine). That's the only reason the flag was changed. Imagine how woke you have to be to change something minor like this just so no one is offended. It sets a dangerous precedent, if they changed such a small thing what else have they changed? What does this mean for GTA VI?  Take Two's recent bs (like going to the E3 to talk about diversity..) also shows that things have changed.

 

I don't know where you're from or what your background is but for many, many people the confederate flag is not a minor thing. It's a symbol of hate that's synonymous with the KKK. It adds nothing of value to the game or the character and actually detracts from them. Even if it weren't trendy to be decent and understanding it would still make artistic sense to make that change.

 

Also, why is Take Two talking about diversity "bs"? And why is change so bad?

 

1 hour ago, Journey_95 said:

They are not asking for it right now but if they didn't change it lots of people on Twitter + video game "journalists" would get butthurt. That's why Rockstar got rid of the confederate flag and will very likely change this mission (maybe more).

That hypothetical scenario might be true but it's just your assumption. It could be that Rockstar made changes to the game because they themselves find certain things offensive that the people making the game twenty years ago didn't. Maybe they also saw that those things added nothing of value and removing them hurts nothing. Maybe it's not about politics and instead about changing, growing, and just being decent.

 

I mean, someone's gonna be "butthurt" no matter what Rockstar do. People are already butthurt that the confederate flag has been removed. I suppose everyone's gotta pick a side these days and I don't know why anybody would choose to side with the group that gets mad when unnecessary KKK symbolism is removed from a video game.

 

1 hour ago, Journey_95 said:

Also I don't get your argument. FIrst you say "We don't have any evidence that they are changing things", then in the next post you are already saying it doesn't matter and people who get upset over censorships are "snowflakes". Wtf?

 

In one post I said that the list that started this thread is most likely fake. Then, in that same post, I pointed out that if that list were real (it obviously isn't though) and the Psycho Killer mission were changed it wouldn't be a big deal. What that guy was wearing added nothing to the story or the character.

 

Then, in another post I was responding to someone who called people who complain on twitter snowflakes. I was questioning why people who complain about people complaining aren't also considered snowflakes. They seem to be just as sensitive. I don't get where the confusion's coming from.

 

I do understand that we live in a world where one specific group has been catered  to more than most for a very, very long time and change can be kinda scary but I don't think any sort of self-censorship is going to fundamentally change any of these games or their stories. 

[Journey_95]

1 hour ago, DexMacLeod said:

 

I don't know where you're from or what your background is but for many, many people the confederate flag is not a minor thing. It's a symbol of hate that's synonymous with the KKK. It adds nothing of value to the game or the character and actually detracts from them. Even if it weren't trendy to be decent and understanding it would still make artistic sense to make that change.

 

Also, why is Take Two talking about diversity "bs"? And why is change so bad?

 

That hypothetical scenario might be true but it's just your assumption. It could be that Rockstar made changes to the game because they themselves find certain things offensive that the people making the game twenty years ago didn't. Maybe they also saw that those things added nothing of value and removing them hurts nothing. Maybe it's not about politics and instead about changing, growing, and just being decent.

 

I mean, someone's gonna be "butthurt" no matter what Rockstar do. People are already butthurt that the confederate flag has been removed. I suppose everyone's gotta pick a side these days and I don't know why anybody would choose to side with the group that gets mad when unnecessary KKK symbolism is removed from a video game.

 

 

In one post I said that the list that started this thread is most likely fake. Then, in that same post, I pointed out that if that list were real (it obviously isn't though) and the Psycho Killer mission were changed it wouldn't be a big deal. What that guy was wearing added nothing to the story or the character.

 

Then, in another post I was responding to someone who called people who complain on twitter snowflakes. I was questioning why people who complain about people complaining aren't also considered snowflakes. They seem to be just as sensitive. I don't get where the confusion's coming from.

 

I do understand that we live in a world where one specific group has been catered  to more than most for a very, very long time and change can be kinda scary but I don't think any sort of self-censorship is going to fundamentally change any of these games or their stories. 

 

I'm from Germany, sadly American type of woke nonsense is spreading here too but it's not as bad yet. Anyway considering how when VC came out there was no backlash against this its clear that confederate flags were not this huge deal like they are now. Hell I watched a popular movie from the 70s some time ago where the protagonist was a Confederate soldier and he was portrayed as a hero (Outlaw Josey Wales). Americans are just soft and sensitive now but don't act like that was always the case. Its not like Phil was a racist in any way (definitely not part of the KKK either lol).

 

Last I checked the E3 was about showing games, not preachy bs. Using it to focus on diversity shows how stupid their priorities are and again its only done because its trendy. Don't think those companies care about people. Its cheap virtue signalling.

 

That's not better, it would just show that woke morons have taken over Rockstar just like they have most video game companies.  GTA's identity is based on being offensive and not giving a sh*t, clearly Rockstar has forgotten it. Where you see "growth" I just see people turning into pussies because they don't have anything better to do in their life (easy lives so they have to invent stupid problems out of nowhere and act morally superior). 

 

Its liberals who get butthurt first and constantly get offended, that's why changes like this happen. If things like the flag or what the psycho killer was wearing didn't add anything why remove it? And then you act like complaining about this is somehow wrong.  

Edited November 2, 2021 by Journey_95

[billiejoearmstrong8]

5 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

 

Its not like Phil was a racist in any way (definitely not part of the KKK either lol).

 

 

Its liberals who get butthurt first and constantly get offended, that's why changes like this happen. If things like the flag or what the psycho killer was wearing didn't add anything why remove it? And then you act like complaining about this is somehow wrong.  

 

Well....exactly. It would be one thing if they were portraying a racist bad guy character who would have a reason to have that on his shirt, that could possibly justify it. Since Phil isn't, maybe they reasoned it actually doesn't make sense to release a new version of the game with a good guy, non racist character who has a racist symbol on his shirt? 

 

Again, where are the "liberals" who have called for things to be removed from these games or said anything about them? Where are the posts, articles, news stories? You're just making them up in your head. They've removed "offensive" content before, many years before wokeness was a big concept (the Haitian stuff in VC for example) so why are only "liberals" being blamed now? You're blaming people who don't exist or who haven't said the things you're claiming. There's plenty of reasons they might've removed it other than people on twitter or whoever else you're blaming - Apple stores or other places potentially not selling the games because of it and a shirt not being worth that, not wanting to alienate non white or non racist people from their games, or literally just because they think it makes it a better product, for example.

Edited November 2, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[DylRicho]

It's simply much easier to make changes now and forget about it, rather than release the game with everything still in it, face criticism for certain 'questionable' things remaining in the game, and then have to go back to 'fix' it.

 

I highly doubt they would want the trilogy, a highly anticipated product for long-time GTA fans, to be surrounded by controversy as soon as it has launched. It's not a good look, and they've had plenty of that over the years. Including with the original games of the trilogy in question.

[Journey_95]

10 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

Well....exactly. It would be one thing if they were portraying a racist bad guy character who would have a reason to have that on his shirt, that could possibly justify it. Since Phil isn't, maybe they reasoned it actually doesn't make sense to release a new version of the game with a good guy, non racist character who has a racist symbol on his shirt? 

 

Again, where are the "liberals" who have called for things to be removed from these games or said anything about them? Where are the posts, articles, news stories? You're just making them up in your head. They've removed "offensive" content before, many years before wokeness was a big concept (the Haitian stuff in VC for example) so why are only "liberals" being blamed now? You're blaming people who don't exist or who haven't said the things you're claiming. There's plenty of reasons they might've removed it other than people on twitter or whoever else you're blaming - Apple stores or other places potentially not selling the games because of it and a shirt not being worth that, not wanting to alienate non white or non racist people from their games, or literally just because they think it makes it a better product, for example.

 

Not everyone with a confederate flag is immediately a racist sh*t part of the KKK, that was the point of Phil's character and its true in general as well. Now some flag triggers people so much that they have to remove it, its laughable. 

 

I just posted an article about people saying GTA V was "transphobic" and that the content should be changed, why did you ignore it? I'm not making up sh*t. Why would there be articles about 20 year old games? They would only appear after the remaster if they didn't censor this.

 

Again the Haitian stuff or the sex mini game are nothing compared to how PC games and other american entertainment is forced to be now. Liberals are the ones who push for PC crap in everything now, not conservatives who have zero influence in the entertainment industry and if anything are constantly villified.   I gave you another example of people trying to cancel Dave Chapelle because of a few jokes and yet you think these extreme woke people don't exist..wtf?

Edited November 2, 2021 by Journey_95

[billiejoearmstrong8]

1 hour ago, Journey_95 said:

 

Not everyone with a confederate flag is immediately a racist sh*t part of the KKK, that was the point of Phil's character and its true in general as well. Now some flag triggers people so much that they have to remove it, its laughable. 

 

I just posted an article about people saying GTA V was "transphobic" and that the content should be changed, why did you ignore it? I'm not making up sh*t. Why would there be articles about 20 year old games? They would only appear after the remaster if they didn't censor this.

 

Again the Haitian stuff or the sex mini game are nothing compared to how PC games and other american entertainment is forced to be now. Liberals are the ones who push for PC crap in everything now, not conservatives who have zero influence in the entertainment industry and if anything are constantly villified.   I gave you another example of people trying to cancel Dave Chapelle because of a few jokes and yet you think these extreme woke people don't exist..wtf?

 

I thought we were talking about the trilogy remasters? Yeah I've seen that article. I don't see a problem with it, it's just an opinion/suggestion that they believe would improve the game. It's true that the joke was lame, transphobic and very out of date (even in 2013 - elsewhere in the game they included humour involving LGBT characters and even a transgender character that's done much better and more intelligently than just "lol trans people are men in dresses!!!11!" so it's pretty cringe to have it in there) and I don't think you can blame trans activists for having an opinion on it. They're not marching against it or starting a boycott, just giving constructive criticism. And as far as I can see there's nothing to indicate Rockstar are going to follow their suggestion.

 

Removing an entire minigame or key dialogue from main missions in the story seems much more significant than removing an image on a shirt to me . Woke liberals exist but there's not any significant amount of them that care about GTA games. Nothing that comes close to comparing to the moral panic about it in the past. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[DexMacLeod]

12 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

Anyway considering how when VC came out there was no backlash against this its clear that confederate flags were not this huge deal like they are now. Hell I watched a popular movie from the 70s some time ago where the protagonist was a Confederate soldier and he was portrayed as a hero (Outlaw Josey Wales).

 

How do you know people weren't offended? The only reason things are changing now is because we have social media and people are allowed to voice their opinions and be heard. Where I live the confederate flag has always been contentious, outlawed from schools, and generally used as a symbol of hate.

 

There was actually a lot of controversy around The Outlaw Josey Wales. Mostly because the writer of the book was a former KKK leader and segregationist speech writer. If global communication had been what it is now it would have been an even bigger deal.

 

Most people just didn't have a voice loud enough to be heard back then. People voiced their frustrations by writing actual letters which were pretty easy to just ignore and discard.

 

Even if nobody was offended by things in the past, what does that mean? People used to be more tolerant of bigotry fifty years ago so we should all be fine with it now, too?

 

12 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

Its not like Phil was a racist in any way (definitely not part of the KKK either lol).

 

All the more reason for him not to wear one of the symbols they've adopted. 

 

12 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

Last I checked the E3 was about showing games, not preachy bs. Using it to focus on diversity shows how stupid their priorities are and again its only done because its trendy. Don't think those companies care about people. Its cheap virtue signalling.

 

E3 is about self-promotion. Take-Two talking about diversity is not the first time a company's gone to E3 and talked about how their company operates. Also, Take-Twos games have always been pretty diverse. Why does it bother you that the people who make them are too?

 

12 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

That's not better, it would just show that woke morons have taken over Rockstar just like they have most video game companies.  GTA's identity is based on being offensive and not giving a sh*t, clearly Rockstar has forgotten it.

 

GTA's primary goal was never to be offensive or hurtful. In the 3D era the games were mostly just mindless and juvenile parodies of American pop culture and grew into a satire of American society. The problems you're imagining don't stop them from doing that.

 

12 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

If things like the flag or what the psycho killer was wearing didn't add anything why remove it? And then you act like complaining about this is somehow wrong.  

 

The fact that it didn't add anything is why it's okay to remove it. How can you not understand that? It adds nothing of value and only detracts. That flag isn't on Phil's shirt because Rockstar is making some satirical statement about the flag, it doesn't strengthen Phil's character, or really make sense at all. Rockstar's not stifling their own creativity by changing it because it being there has no artistic purpose.

 

There's nothing wrong with complaining. I just think it's hypocritical to complain about people complaining. Why do people not have the right to speak up when they feel they're being treated or represented poorly but you have the right to speak up when they're treated or represented a little better?

 

Either way, it's clear your views on this are that anyone who wants things to be slightly more equal is a "woke pussy moron", diversity is bad, and things you have no cultural or personal connection to aren't offensive to you and so everyone else should just keep their mouths shut about them. Neither of us are going to change our viewpoints no matter how long we go back and forth like this.

 

 

[Journey_95]

2 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

I thought we were talking about the trilogy remasters? Yeah I've seen that article. I don't see a problem with it, it's just an opinion/suggestion that they believe would improve the game. It's true that the joke was lame, transphobic and very out of date (even in 2013 - elsewhere in the game they included humour involving LGBT characters and even a transgender character that's done much better and more intelligently than just "lol trans people are men in dresses!!!11!" so it's pretty cringe to have it in there) and I don't think you can blame trans activists for having an opinion on it. They're not marching against it or starting a boycott, just giving constructive criticism. And as far as I can see there's nothing to indicate Rockstar are going to follow their suggestion.

 

Removing an entire minigame or key dialogue from main missions in the story seems much more significant than removing an image on a shirt to me . Woke liberals exist but there's not any significant amount of them that care about GTA games. Nothing that comes close to comparing to the moral panic about it in the past. 

 

First you say no liberal is asking for changes & accuse me of imagining things, then I post an article showing just that and you just say "so what, that's a good thing" lol.   And there is no need for them to start some boycott just writing garbage articles like that is enough for companies to bend over to the woke mob.

 

The moral panic right now  (with people being cancelled, comedy shows from not 10 years ago being considered offensive, certain groups being put on a pedestal and everything being PC) is far worse than what conservatives used to do, the difference is just that you agree with it now so you don't mind. Lets be honest here

[Journey_95]

1 hour ago, DexMacLeod said:

 

How do you know people weren't offended? The only reason things are changing now is because we have social media and people are allowed to voice their opinions and be heard. Where I live the confederate flag has always been contentious, outlawed from schools, and generally used as a symbol of hate.

 

There was actually a lot of controversy around The Outlaw Josey Wales. Mostly because the writer of the book was a former KKK leader and segregationist speech writer. If global communication had been what it is now it would have been an even bigger deal.

 

Most people just didn't have a voice loud enough to be heard back then. People voiced their frustrations by writing actual letters which were pretty easy to just ignore and discard.

 

Even if nobody was offended by things in the past, what does that mean? People used to be more tolerant of bigotry fifty years ago so we should all be fine with it now, too?

 

 

All the more reason for him not to wear one of the symbols they've adopted. 

 

 

E3 is about self-promotion. Take-Two talking about diversity is not the first time a company's gone to E3 and talked about how their company operates. Also, Take-Twos games have always been pretty diverse. Why does it bother you that the people who make them are too?

 

 

GTA's primary goal was never to be offensive or hurtful. In the 3D era the games were mostly just mindless and juvenile parodies of American pop culture and grew into a satire of American society. The problems you're imagining don't stop them from doing that.

 

 

The fact that it didn't add anything is why it's okay to remove it. How can you not understand that? It adds nothing of value and only detracts. That flag isn't on Phil's shirt because Rockstar is making some satirical statement about the flag, it doesn't strengthen Phil's character, or really make sense at all. Rockstar's not stifling their own creativity by changing it because it being there has no artistic purpose.

 

There's nothing wrong with complaining. I just think it's hypocritical to complain about people complaining. Why do people not have the right to speak up when they feel they're being treated or represented poorly but you have the right to speak up when they're treated or represented a little better?

 

Either way, it's clear your views on this are that anyone who wants things to be slightly more equal is a "woke pussy moron", diversity is bad, and things you have no cultural or personal connection to aren't offensive to you and so everyone else should just keep their mouths shut about them. Neither of us are going to change our viewpoints no matter how long we go back and forth like this.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that social media is the real problem here, it gave snowflakes a place to gather together and cry about everything & since they are so vocal they have a lot of influence (even though they are the minority). Most people didn't care about the confederate flag in VC, otherwise it wouldn't have sold so well. Same for the Outlaw josey wales movie which is literally seen as one of the best westerners by most (apart from woke morons).

 

With woke logic literally everything from 10+ years ago is "bigoted". No one here is saying that actual racism is acceptable or that other minorities should be harrassed or some sh*t. We are talking about simple entertainment here, yet because it doesn't fill the woke checkbox "older" stuff is suddenly seen as offensive. Its pathetic and just shows that people don't have any real problems to deal with.

 

Wrong, part of GTA's identity is that it always made fun of everyone, doesn't matter if some consider it "hurtful" but now its only acceptable to make fun of conservatives and white people so the next GTA game won't be really true to its identity. 

How does the flag detract when 99% of fans never cared about it one way or the other? It wasn't exactly a controversial issue but again because a minority of extreme liberals has made it their purpose to get offended over everything its being removed. 

[Algonquin Assassin]

4 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

All the more reason for him not to wear one of the symbols they've adopted. 

 

Coming to think about it Phil doesn't dawn the Confederate flag on his clothing in VCS so maybe even as far back as 2006 R* saw it didn't really make much sense for his character since he's never shown to be a racist or anything. Probably a similar reason why it was also removed in GTA V since once again The Lost were never portrayed as racists and even had ethnic diversity in their ranks.

[universetwisters]

2 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

Wrong, part of GTA's identity is that it always made fun of everyone, doesn't matter if some consider it "hurtful"

 

What about making fun of trans people? Not to have a GOTCHA moment or anything, but a friend of mine says that characters like Reni and transphobic comments made by the V protags hurt the trans community more than parody, granted some people are more sensitive than others but it's still an interesting topic; are some people just "off limits" to parody and being ingame?

[billiejoearmstrong8]

9 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

 

First you say no liberal is asking for changes & accuse me of imagining things, then I post an article showing just that and you just say "so what, that's a good thing" lol.   And there is no need for them to start some boycott just writing garbage articles like that is enough for companies to bend over to the woke mob.

 

The moral panic right now  (with people being cancelled, comedy shows from not 10 years ago being considered offensive, certain groups being put on a pedestal and everything being PC) is far worse than what conservatives used to do, the difference is just that you agree with it now so you don't mind. Lets be honest here

 

There isn't current moral panic about GTA is my point. And especially not about these remasters. If it happens then sure freak out about it I guess, I just don't see a point in doing that when it hasn't even happened.

[DylRicho]

12 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

What about making fun of trans people? Not to have a GOTCHA moment or anything, but a friend of mine says that characters like Reni and transphobic comments made by the V protags hurt the trans community more than parody, granted some people are more sensitive than others but it's still an interesting topic; are some people just "off limits" to parody and being ingame?

 

If there's any specific community that should feel offended, it's the Republican supporters or conservatives in general. They're always portrayed as dimwitted morons throughout the entire franchise. 

 

People need to understand that Rockstar isn't necessarily condoning the actions of the characters in the game. It's just trying to paint a realistic picture of society for a given time period. There are plenty of sitcoms from the 1980s where transvestites and gays/lesbians are treated like they are from another planet.

 

People might not like it today, but that's just how the 1980s were. Times change, and society changes. But if you're trying to create an atmosphere and an accurate representation of society for the setting of a game, TV show or movie, you can't then start to edit the s**t out of it because certain groups find it offensive. In the GTA world, there won't be much left in the games. A huge part of the franchise has always been about parodying real-life events or characters.

 

The torture mission in GTA V comes to mind, and how it draws similar to the Bush administration and its usage of torture techniques on suspected terrorists. Trevor didn't want to do it, but he was forced to by the governmental agents. Yet nobody really thinks about that. They just see it in the game and complain without seeing the bigger picture.

[Journey_95]

14 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

What about making fun of trans people? Not to have a GOTCHA moment or anything, but a friend of mine says that characters like Reni and transphobic comments made by the V protags hurt the trans community more than parody, granted some people are more sensitive than others but it's still an interesting topic; are some people just "off limits" to parody and being ingame?

No one should be off limits but certain minorities definitely want to be untouchable and cancel everyone who disagrees, haven't you seen the recent drama with Dave Chappelle's netflix special? Lots of backlash like he did something terrible 

[BS_BlackScout]

On 11/2/2021 at 2:38 AM, Journey_95 said:

Its liberals who get butthurt first and constantly get offended

And then you act like complaining about this is somehow wrong.  

Excuse me? Who began to complain first about this situation?

 

Also, I "love" how it's like people aren't on a spectrum but on a checkers/chess board.

You're either a "butthurt liberal" or a "strong and moral anti-censorship conservative".

 

BUT THE LIBS. BUT THE CONSERVATIVES. This is simply tagging people with whom you disagree, and it began to happen in Social Media a few years ago as a very effective way to divide people over the tiniest of issues, sometimes issues that shouldn't even be politicized.

It's, hell. No wonder I put filters for anything politically related on my Twitter feed. I don't care who is who, I just don't want to hear any babble because it's always that binary ones and zeros talk. Nuance has been thrown out the window years ago, it's sad.

_

BTW props to the good argumentation of some members here, you know who you are by the reactions I gave. (not sarcasm)

I wish I was able to express myself just as well and not get heated and either give up or say sh*t in an acid way.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by BS_BlackScout

[DexMacLeod]

16 hours ago, universetwisters said:

What about making fun of trans people? Not to have a GOTCHA moment or anything, but a friend of mine says that characters like Reni and transphobic comments made by the V protags hurt the trans community more than parody, granted some people are more sensitive than others but it's still an interesting topic; are some people just "off limits" to parody and being ingame?

 

I've never played the Stories games but I just read about Reni on GTA wiki and she does sound pretty bad. From what I can tell, Reni being trans (and not being able to decide what gender they want to be) is the whole joke and their sexuality is their major defining character trait. Rockstar doesn't really do that with other groups.

 

Take Ken Rosenberg for example. He's very much a ridiculous Jewish stereotype but that's not all his character is or even a major part of who he is. He's a degenerate junkie who just so happens to be a ridiculous Jewish stereotype.

 

3 hours ago, DylRicho said:

If there's any specific community that should feel offended, it's the Republican supporters or conservatives in general. They're always portrayed as dimwitted morons throughout the entire franchise. 

 

I feel like they do the same to Democrats, though. Rockstar's political humor works because they don't really take a side and sort of portray all politicians as dumb and lying scum bags.

[DylRicho]

9 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

I feel like they do the same to Democrats, though. Rockstar's political humor works because they don't really take a side and sort of portray all politicians as dumb and lying scum bags.

 

They definitely do, but it always seems to me that they go much further at expressing typical conservative values and mannerisms.

 

---

 

The outfit is there simply so that he can blend in, which should be pretty obvious from the context of the mission.

 

That in of itself is a reason why I don't understand how it gets so much flak. It's not there to poke fun at men who dress in women's clothes. Nor is it there to parody transgenders. That's what I think @Journey_95 is getting at, and if so, I agree with him.

 

I can also see the opposite side. It's just a costume to blend in. It isn't the only means of achieving this. They might even have to change the cutscene up so that he doesn't walk out with women, but instead comes out of hiding from somewhere nearby.

 

Do whatever. Just don't remove the mission. Vice City's story is already far too short.

[Journey_95]

3 hours ago, BS_BlackScout said:

Excuse me? Who began to complain first about this situation?

 

Also, I "love" how it's like people aren't on a spectrum but on a checkers/chess board.

You're either a "butthurt liberal" or a "strong and moral anti-censorship conservative".

 

BUT THE LIBS. BUT THE CONSERVATIVES. This is simply tagging people with whom you disagree, and it began to happen in Social Media a few years ago as a very effective way to divide people over the tiniest of issues, sometimes issues that shouldn't even be politicized.

It's, hell. No wonder I put filters for anything politically related on my Twitter feed. I don't care who is who, I just don't want to hear any babble because it's always that binary ones and zeros talk. Nuance has been thrown out the window years ago, it's sad.

_

BTW props to the good argumentation of some members here, you know who you are by the reactions I gave. (not sarcasm)

I wish I was able to express myself just as well and not get heated and either give up or say sh*t in an acid way.

 

 

The first step was made by the liberal devs who said they censored stuff for modern sensibilities..people here are just reacting to that. I'm not even really a conservative, I thought at least that I was more liberal but the extreme woke crap in the last decade annoys me. Liberals now are not comparable with how they were just 10+ years ago, they are far more radical

[billiejoearmstrong8]

1 hour ago, DylRicho said:

 

They definitely do, but it always seems to me that they go much further at expressing typical conservative values and mannerisms.

 

 

I think a big part of it is because of the main writer being from the UK tbh. Often the American point of view it that it's republicans on the right and democrats on the left. But that's only because their politics is skewed so far to the right - from a European perspective US republicans are (pretty close to far) right and US democrats are centre-right. When someone's writing from that non-US viewpoint the republicans/conservatives are naturally going to be seen as the more extreme/absurd position and will be more ripe for ridicule.

 

Although GTA does go after the democrat/liberal side too (as well as just politics and politicians in general regardless of party/side), only someone who inaccurately sees them as equally extreme on each side would expect them to be mocked equally.

 

32 minutes ago, Journey_95 said:

Liberals now are not comparable with how they were just 10+ years ago, they are far more radical

 

They're not radical about GTA games though. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[DexMacLeod]

48 minutes ago, DylRicho said:

The outfit is there simply so that he can blend in, which should be pretty obvious from the context of the mission.

 

That in of itself is a reason why I don't understand how it gets so much flak. It's not there to poke fun at men who dress in women's clothes. Nor is it there to parody transgenders. That's what I think @Journey_95 is getting at, and if so, I agree with him.

 

Yeah, I pointed out earlier that the character is more a statement about obsessive fandom than anything else, but also, having him being dressed like a woman in his only on-screen appearance doesn't really make sense and sort of detracts from that message. There's really no context to explain why he needed to blend in to begin with.

 

Also, I don't really think it's getting much flak at all. A redditor created a list of things that could potentially be "censored" in an attempt to trigger the overly sensitive portion of the "anti-woke" community. It seems to have worked.

 

56 minutes ago, DylRicho said:

I can also see the opposite side. It's just a costume to blend in. It isn't the only means of achieving this. They might even have to change the cutscene up so that he doesn't walk out with women, but instead comes out of hiding from somewhere nearby.

 

Honestly, I think the writing of that mission could use some changes just from a basic storytelling perspective. His need to blend in doesn't really make sense since his plan was apparently just to shoot a random security guard and run away. There was no real need to dress up and wait in line to do that. Any old mask would have done the trick if he was concerned about his identity.

 

To me, these are the kinds of things a remaster should try to fix. Not because of some "woke agenda" but because it's just an all around poorly written and executed scene. If they can upgrade the models, textures, lighting, and controls, they should also be allowed to upgrade the writing where possible.

[DylRicho]

2 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

 

Yeah, I pointed out earlier that the character is more a statement about obsessive fandom than anything else, but also, having him being dressed like a woman in his only on-screen appearance doesn't really make sense and sort of detracts from that message. There's really no context to explain why he needed to blend in to begin with.

 

Also, I don't really think it's getting much flak at all. A redditor created a list of things that could potentially be "censored" in an attempt to trigger the overly sensitive portion of the "anti-woke" community. It seems to have worked.

 

 

Honestly, I think the writing of that mission could use some changes just from a basic storytelling perspective. His need to blend in doesn't really make sense since his plan was apparently just to shoot a random security guard and run away. There was no real need to dress up and wait in line to do that. Any old mask would have done the trick if he was concerned about his identity.

 

To me, these are the kinds of things a remaster should try to fix. Not because of some "woke agenda" but because it's just an all around poorly written and executed scene. If they can upgrade the models, textures, lighting, and controls, they should also be allowed to upgrade the writing where possible.

 

To be honest, I don't understand any of Love Fist's missions, beyond the fact that someone is trying to kill them.

 

Vice City wasn't very good at explaining the story. The only continuity was the gang warfare between the Cubans and Haitians, and the conversations between Tommy and Sonny. Everything else was all over the place. Lance's first appearance wasn't really explained beyond the fact that he wanted what Tommy wanted. Incredibly vague. GTA III suffered the same problem.

 

I feel like San Andreas was so much better at telling a story with entire continuity.

[Journey_95]

47 minutes ago, DylRicho said:

 

To be honest, I don't understand any of Love Fist's missions, beyond the fact that someone is trying to kill them.

 

Vice City wasn't very good at explaining the story. The only continuity was the gang warfare between the Cubans and Haitians, and the conversations between Tommy and Sonny. Everything else was all over the place. Lance's first appearance wasn't really explained beyond the fact that he wanted what Tommy wanted. Incredibly vague. GTA III suffered the same problem.

 

I feel like San Andreas was so much better at telling a story with entire continuity.

VC's story had plenty of continuity in the first half but once Diaz gets killed its just a collection of fun mission arcs that don't really have any connection (until the last 2 missions). It was still a major step up from GTA 3's story though and like you said SA improved further in terms of storytelling (but it felt too dragged out to me)

[pirateman]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:56 PM, DexMacLeod said:

it makes sense that a company might not want to use it on a character who's supposed to be an ally to the protagonist.

And the protagonist is a criminal who throughout the game is show to do such things as stealing, drug dealing and killing, all without a single bit of remorse, and his other two biggest allies in the game are a corrupt lawyer and another criminal who practically does the same things as him in both this game and it's prequel.

 

The entire cast of not only this game but of the entire series is made up of criminals, scumbags, walking stereotypes, etc. I think it's pretty obvious you aren't supposed to look up to any of these people, and you aren't supposed to take them too seriously either.

[DexMacLeod]

27 minutes ago, pirateman said:

And the protagonist is a criminal who throughout the game is show to do such things as stealing, drug dealing and killing, all without a single bit of remorse, and his other two biggest allies in the game are a corrupt lawyer and another criminal who practically does the same things as him in both this game and it's prequel.

 

And all of that is fictional. The confederate flag and the KKK are very real. It's one thing to have fictional characters do bad things, it's another thing entirely to have a character, who within the context of the story is a "good guy", wearing a real life symbol that is synonymous with a real life hate group.

 

27 minutes ago, pirateman said:

The entire cast of not only this game but of the entire series is made up of criminals, scumbags, walking stereotypes, etc. I think it's pretty obvious you aren't supposed to look up to any of these people, and you aren't supposed to take them too seriously either.

 

You aren't supposed to lookup to them, no, none of them are role models. In GTA, though, you are supposed to root for the protagonist/hero of the story. That's generally how most stories work. It's way easier not to take a character too seriously and root for them when they aren't wearing such a loaded symbol on their chest.

[Donald Lov]

One thing to note is that often times a southerner's perception of the flag differs greatly from that of a modern, liberalized media consumer or a West/East coast citizen. The historical context behind it carries no significance to many southerners who might still have it on full display in their Arkansas backyards. Over the years it has become, for some, a symbol of southern tradition, pride and rebellion against the status quo(hence ''rebel flag''). Phil always striked me as a person from exactly this kind of background, especially seeing how him and Vik are doing just fine together.

 

[ThePlake0815]

I can only chuckle about the people in here claiming R* became woke for removing the flag, when after the first release of Vice City there was already censorship in v1.1 where R* removed mentioning of Haitians and Cubans during certain missions...

 

In the end R* is trying to sell a product with the least amount of controversy possible, so if it means removing a logo of hate on a t-shirt in one scene, thrn deal with it! The latest rating information on the remastered trilogy shows that a lot of gore, violence and profanity is still in there, so calm your t*ts and wait for the release, before getting a heart attack over such a mundane change!

[Journey_95]

5 hours ago, Notorious_Jack said:

One thing to note is that often times a southerner's perception of the flag differs greatly from that of a modern, liberalized media consumer or a West/East coast citizen. The historical context behind it carries no significance to many southerners who might still have it on full display in their Arkansas backyards. Over the years it has become, for some, a symbol of southern tradition, pride and rebellion against the status quo(hence ''rebel flag''). Phil always striked me as a person from exactly this kind of background, especially seeing how him and Vik are doing just fine together.

 

Makes sense, Phil was never portrayed as a racist in any of the games (just a typical Redneck type). Liberals these days love to be overdramatic. 

4 hours ago, ThePlake0815 said:

I can only chuckle about the people in here claiming R* became woke for removing the flag, when after the first release of Vice City there was already censorship in v1.1 where R* removed mentioning of Haitians and Cubans during certain missions...

 

In the end R* is trying to sell a product with the least amount of controversy possible, so if it means removing a logo of hate on a t-shirt in one scene, thrn deal with it! The latest rating information on the remastered trilogy shows that a lot of gore, violence and profanity is still in there, so calm your t*ts and wait for the release, before getting a heart attack over such a mundane change!

 

Woke liberals don't have any issues with violence, profanity or even nudity. That was the problem of conservatives. But they do love to get offended over everything else and make everything as PC as possible. I don't think anyone will care if this is the only change but the devs talking about changing the games for modern sensibilities makes me sceptical.

 

[ThePlake0815]

5 minutes ago, Journey_95 said:

Makes sense, Phil was never portrayed as a racist in any of the games (just a typical Redneck type). Liberals these days love to be overdramatic. 

 

Woke liberals don't have any issues with violence, profanity or even nudity. That was the problem of conservatives. But they do love to get offended over everything else and make everything as PC as possible. I don't think anyone will care if this is the only change but the devs talking about changing the games for modern sensibilities makes me sceptical.

 

Can you please provide a source pointing to where anybody (T2, R* and/or Grove Street Games) talked about modern sensibility adjustments?

Edited November 4, 2021 by ThePlake0815

[pirateman]

23 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

And all of that is fictional. The confederate flag and the KKK are very real. It's one thing to have fictional characters do bad things, it's another thing entirely to have a character, who within the context of the story is a "good guy", wearing a real life symbol that is synonymous with a real life hate group.

Everything i mentioned is also very real and happens on a daily basis, does something happening on reality makes it impossible for it to be depicted on fiction? Let's say someone's cousin dies on a shootout, should we remove shooting from the game because of that? 

 

23 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

You are supposed to root for the protagonist/hero of the story. That's generally how most stories work. It's way easier not to take a character too seriously and root for them when they aren't wearing such a loaded symbol on their chest.

You aren't supposed to root for Phil, you are supposed to root for Tommy, who is using Phil and his services for his benefit, also Phil is never depicted in a very positive light, he's usually depicted as an alcoholic idiot who happens to be very useful, i don't see why him wearing a shirt with a controversial flag on it makes him more difficult to take seriously, if anything i think that depending on how you see the flag it just helps bring the point of him being an idiot further.

 

A point i forgot to bring up in my previous post: Is it really self-censorship if none of the original developers were involved on the remaster? I consider the removal of haitians from the dialogue self-censorship since it was most likely made by the same team, i also consider the removal of this same flag from gta v self-censorship for the same reason, but I'm pretty sure none of the original team are involved in the remaster.