GTA III Definitive Edition Analysis & Comparisons Topic

[CynicalMexican]

5 minutes ago, Helegad said:

 

It's a common traffic spawn in the PS2 version of GTA III.

 

This leads me to one of my favorite fun facts about GTA SA: the Phoenix and Euros are supposed to spawn in normal traffic, the coding is just a bit off.

[videotechuk_]

I had a closer look at that rain train shot, and yes the billboards have been entirely reworked 

 

[DylRicho]

4 hours ago, suicidehummer said:

 

It sticks out in that screenshot, which is from an angle you'll almost never see during gameplay. You act like this is a car driving halfway on the sidewalk.

 

Never mind that it could just be that section of track which is off and the entire rest of it is fine.

 

You can get onto the track, and you can travel on the train. It's not like it's above the building tops where you'll never go without mods.

 

Nor is it that it might only affect the corners; it's the fact that they had the opportunity to fix something quite prominent from the original game for their promotional material, and they didn't.

[suicidehummer]

3 hours ago, DylRicho said:

 

You can get onto the track, and you can travel on the train. It's not like it's above the building tops where you'll never go without mods.

 

Nor is it that it might only affect the corners; it's the fact that they had the opportunity to fix something quite prominent from the original game for their promotional material, and they didn't.

 

You and I have wildly different ideas of what constitutes something "prominent". Did anyone ever actually give a sh*t about the trains? I don't think I even knew they were accessible back then.

 

And I doubt that's something you can just easily fix when you're at the stage of taking promo pics.

[SquoniX]

Regardless of whether or not you can enter trains, I think they are a distinct part of the city and should be treated better and I am one of those people who like the remaster.

Edited November 8, 2021 by SquoniX

[LunaticMoose]

42 minutes ago, SquoniX said:

Regardless of whether or not you can enter trains, I think they are a distinct part of the city and should be treated better and I am one of those people who like the remaster.

Absolutely. The train is a key part of Liberty in GTA III, especially Portland. Great memories coming from my first playthrough revolve around the train. Trying to get past the underground subway gate at the start of the game, not realising you actually have to progress and realising you can actually get on the train was cool. So to see them not even bother to put the train on right is just disappointing.

[CynicalMexican]

5 minutes ago, LunaticMoose said:

Absolutely. The train is a key part of Liberty in GTA III, especially Portland. Great memories coming from my first playthrough revolve around the train. Trying to get past the underground subway gate at the start of the game, not realising you actually have to progress and realising you can actually get on the train was cool. So to see them not even bother to put the train on right is just disappointing.

 

In both GTA 3 and GTA 4 the subway is just kinda underappreciated. Even in IV with the level of detail, it sucks to see it so empty even though real-life NYC it is way more busy.

[Helegad]

On 11/7/2021 at 11:27 AM, DylRicho said:

 

But...

 

 

The reason for this is because the trains and aircraft have no real AI, per se. Their tracking is set through path files, which are basically a bunch of waypoints:

 

Spoiler

168
766.427 -696.178 21.8339
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770.906 -786.091 22.2607
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825.233 -469.514 21.9436
821.528 -480.527 21.7242
816.006 -488.489 21.7242
810.175 -495.325 21.7242
801.878 -503.232 21.8339
781.339 -524.715 21.9436
777.043 -529.127 21.7242
773.032 -535.418 21.7242
769.435 -543.099 21.8329
767.403 -550.887 21.7242
766.398 -560.046 21.7242
766.399 -582.619 21.7242
766.454 -605.434 21.9436
766.399 -650.801 21.7242

 

That there is literally the coordinates for each movement of the Portland el-train. You could remove the train track models altogether and the train would still run around in mid air. Of course it's not dead accurate, which causes the offset issue in the image above. Maybe some pedantic modder will fix it one day.

[Michael Da Pokemon]

9 minutes ago, Helegad said:

 

The reason for this is because the trains and aircraft have no real AI, per se. Their tracking is set through path files, which are basically a bunch of waypoints:

 

  Hide contents

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963.339 12.9808 21.9436
940.773 13.0565 21.7242
917.958 13.0769 21.7242
911.807 12.9199 21.7242
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882.417 -1.41681 21.7242
866.489 -17.4514 21.9436
850.308 -33.4968 21.7242
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771.394 -229.958 21.7242
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785.73 -259.348 21.7242
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814.827 -289.121 21.7242
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823.939 -308.484 21.9436
825.842 -317.984 21.9436
826.113 -326.039 21.9436
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826.092 -371.413 21.9436
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826.017 -416.794 21.7242
826.092 -439.542 21.9436
826.092 -462.175 21.9436
825.233 -469.514 21.9436
821.528 -480.527 21.7242
816.006 -488.489 21.7242
810.175 -495.325 21.7242
801.878 -503.232 21.8339
781.339 -524.715 21.9436
777.043 -529.127 21.7242
773.032 -535.418 21.7242
769.435 -543.099 21.8329
767.403 -550.887 21.7242
766.398 -560.046 21.7242
766.399 -582.619 21.7242
766.454 -605.434 21.9436
766.399 -650.801 21.7242

 

That there is literally the coordinates for each movement of the Portland el-train. You could remove the train track models altogether and the train would still run around in mid air. Of course it's not dead accurate, which causes the offset issue in the image above. Maybe some pedantic modder will fix it one day.

Thanks for the research !

[Lioshenka]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:56 AM, CynicalMexican said:

I'm glad I'm not the driver of that train. Tens of people are gonna die on that train alone, and many more on the ground 

Don't worry, there are both headlight and a brake light on either end of the train, so people on the ground will see it coming from afar and run to safety.

 

God, this remaster seems worse with every day, and to think I thought that III wasn't too bad.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Lioshenka

[wrightguy0]

Trains in 3 were always Janky, i'm kinda glad that's still there TBH, weird enough as that is. 3, VC and SA were always imperfect games, to perfect them would mean a full remake, not a remaster...

[BulletFly]

The tracks curve to sharply for the length of the wagons in the original game, that's why they derail.

The only thing they could have done is reduce the length of the wagons by half at least, but it would look weird I guess.

Or maybe, ad pivot points between the wheels and the wagons, but it would look weirder I think.

[Lioshenka]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:36 AM, Mktz1 said:

The atmosphere in the original trilogy is very specific and has grown on us who played these games when they first were released.

+1

 

One of the reasons I wouldn't be buying/borrowing the Trilogy. GTA 3 is already a game, if you want me to buy it - make a new game.

 

SA remaster is completely butchered, but III seems to be more in line with the original. However it too sickens me seeing people saying that it needs bikes, swimming and planes. There is already a plane there, the water is too contaminated with chemicals to swim, and the bikes are banned in LC.

 

So you and I are in the minority, I am afraid, the players of to-day simply don't care if someone decides to ruin the atmosphere and the backstory of the game and pass it on as a decent product.

[CynicalMexican]

20 minutes ago, Lioshenka said:

SA remaster is completely butchered, but III seems to be more in line with the original. However it too sickens me seeing people saying that it needs bikes, swimming and planes. There is already a plane there, the water is too contaminated with chemicals to swim, and the bikes are banned in LC.

 

I have two views on this.

 

One, I think GTA III is great as it is - the chaotic way the game plays is what made it so fun back then, and now. So yeah, adding a lot of SA improvements would ruin the game in that sense.

 

On the other hand, if we are buying this game again, it's reasonable to expect some modest improvements. Flyable Dodo/Helicopter, some new radio additions (such as jazz), more clothing options, a few more interiors, etc. Things that don't "ruin" the game like those additions... more like add on.

 

But I have a feeling Grove Street Games' take on the remaster is more conservative than we might want. For which reason, I dont know. 

[SquoniX]

1 hour ago, Lioshenka said:

+1

 

One of the reasons I wouldn't be buying/borrowing the Trilogy. GTA 3 is already a game, if you want me to buy it - make a new game.

 

SA remaster is completely butchered, but III seems to be more in line with the original. However it too sickens me seeing people saying that it needs bikes, swimming and planes. There is already a plane there, the water is too contaminated with chemicals to swim, and the bikes are banned in LC.

 

So you and I are in the minority, I am afraid, the players of to-day simply don't care if someone decides to ruin the atmosphere and the backstory of the game and pass it on as a decent product.

 

You're talking about the water contamination and bikes being banned, I am not sure if you are saying that these reasons are canon and that's why this was fine or the other way around - that the reasons are just excuses for something that wasn't technically possible at the time or not the priority.

[Lioshenka]

7 minutes ago, CynicalMexican said:

On the other hand, if we are buying this game again, it's reasonable to expect some modest improvements. Flyable Dodo/Helicopter, some new radio additions (such as jazz), more clothing options, a few more interiors, etc. Things that don't "ruin" the game like those additions... more like add on.

 

But Dodo is already flyable!

 

But otherwise I see your point, and I don't see a problem with this (and would in fact welcome myself) the interiors, clothes shops, longer/extra radio stations etc. The problem I have with the GSG approach is that they are like robots literally doing what they are being paid to do, and that is to convert the models to another engine with little regard to the game's aesthetic and premise. Given the amount of work that they did anyway it would have been so much better for everyone if they kept the story, but instead came up with a different (maybe similar) map, different backstory, different lore - essentially created a new game based on GTA 3, but one that featured swimming and bikes and such. Just hire one extra creative person who can write a good backstory with the new technologies in mind for the game setting.

 

Maybe not another GTA 4/Mafia DE sort of thing, but something in between; that is different from 3, but requires the same amount of effort/cost to the developer as the remaster.

1 hour ago, SquoniX said:

You're talking about the water contamination and bikes being banned, I am not sure if you are saying that these reasons are canon and that's why this was fine or the other way around - that the reasons are just excuses for something that wasn't technically possible at the time or not the priority.

That may be so, but I see them as part of the game setting/backstory/lore and can't accept that they can be scrapped unless the game itself is significantly changed (which it isn't).

 

See my reply just above - instead of trying to revive an old game they would have been better off releasing something different; very similar, but different that would provide them with an excuse to have helicopters, swimming and all other bells and whistles. For me injecting these features into an original GTA 3 goes against the core idea behind the game; just like increasing the draw distance in SA.

[SquoniX]

7 minutes ago, Lioshenka said:

 

But Dodo is already flyable!

 

But otherwise I see your point, and I don't see a problem with this (and would in fact welcome myself) the interiors, clothes shops, longer/extra radio stations etc. The problem I have with the GSG approach is that they are like robots literally doing what they are being paid to do, and that is to convert the models to another engine with little regard to the game's aesthetic and premise. Given the amount of work that they did anyway it would have been so much better for everyone if they kept the story, but instead came up with a different (maybe similar) map, different backstory, different lore - essentially created a new game based on GTA 3, but one that featured swimming and bikes and such. Just hire one extra creative person who can write a good backstory with the new technologies in mind for the game setting.

 

Maybe not another GTA 4/Mafia DE sort of thing, but something in between; that is different from 3, but requires the same amount of effort/cost to the developer as the remaster.

That may be so, but I see them as part of the game setting/backstory/lore and can't accept that they can be scrapped unless the game itself is significantly changed (which it isn't).

 

See my reply just above - instead of trying to revive an old game they would have been better off releasing something different; very similar, but different that would provide them with an excuse to have helicopters, swimming and all other bells and whistles. For me injecting these features into an original GTA 3 goes against the core idea behind the game; just like increasing the draw distance in SA.

 

I understand but this remaster would have happened no matter what, I believe. This is the time of nostalgia rides and companies will surely make use of that. I doubt GSG will add anything new, so your worries are most probably for nothing but if they do, I guess you could consider it a value addition than removing something. Claude's face has changed a lot, that already takes away from the old feel. 

[DylRicho]

14 hours ago, suicidehummer said:

 

You and I have wildly different ideas of what constitutes something "prominent". Did anyone ever actually give a sh*t about the trains? I don't think I even knew they were accessible back then.

 

And I doubt that's something you can just easily fix when you're at the stage of taking promo pics.

 

This is New York City. The subway system is quite a major component of the city. It's the fourth scene in the GTA III trailer.

 

Regardless of whether you use it or not (I didn't find myself using it that much either), they made the choice to add it, because it would make very little sense to exclude it.

 

 

13 hours ago, SquoniX said:

Regardless of whether or not you can enter trains, I think they are a distinct part of the city and should be treated better and I am one of those people who like the remaster.

 

Which is also my stance. I think it's great that we have these games, and I'm going to enjoy playing them, but I'm not averse to pointing out things that make little sense.

 

 

12 hours ago, Helegad said:

 

The reason for this is because the trains and aircraft have no real AI, per se. Their tracking is set through path files, which are basically a bunch of waypoints:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

168
766.427 -696.178 21.8339
766.557 -741.573 21.7247
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That there is literally the coordinates for each movement of the Portland el-train. You could remove the train track models altogether and the train would still run around in mid air. Of course it's not dead accurate, which causes the offset issue in the image above. Maybe some pedantic modder will fix it one day.

 

If this is the case, surely you could alter the numbers a little to make the turn a little later so that it stays on the track? It seems you could be as precise as you want to be with those DPs.

 

It looks to be a simple case of that'll do.

 

Yet again, it's down to the modders to fix Rockstar's games.

Edited November 8, 2021 by DylRicho

[CynicalMexican]

21 minutes ago, DylRicho said:

 

This is New York City. The subway system is quite a major component of the city. It's the fourth scene in the GTA III trailer.

 

Kinda. Liberty City is loosely based on New York but also takes elements of other Northeast American cities.

 

Compared to its HD counterpart, it's heavily condensed as well, and not super dense either. I mean, the airport takes up 30% of one of the city's boroughs, a map choice that still pisses me off irrationally. 

[SquoniX]

GTA 3 always felt very dead, San Andreas had a bright and alive environment. GTA 4 also felt like GTA 3.

 

I can't explain why, maybe just the lighting and the fact that CJ screwed around and could actually speak. Having the gang mechanics also helped. 

[suicidehummer]

51 minutes ago, DylRicho said:

 

This is New York City. The subway system is quite a major component of the city. It's the fourth scene in the GTA III trailer.

 

Regardless of whether you use it or not (I didn't find myself using it that much either), they made the choice to add it, because it would make very little sense to exclude it.

 

Sure, but we're not talking about omitting trains entirely from the game.

[CynicalMexican]

5 minutes ago, SquoniX said:

GTA 3 always felt very dead, San Andreas had a bright and alive environment. GTA 4 also felt like GTA 3.

 

I can't explain why, maybe just the lighting and the fact that CJ screwed around and could actually speak. Having the gang mechanics also helped. 

 

You see, this is a problem all 3D Universe games have in my opinion. They feel dead. Pedestrians just walk around aimlessly. 

 

GTA 4 feels a lot more alive. The post-trailer press release by R* seemed to imply work was being done to make the worlds feel more alive. 

 

We shall see.

[suicidehummer]

2 hours ago, Lioshenka said:

Just hire one extra creative person who can write a good backstory with the new technologies in mind for the game setting.

 

Maybe not another GTA 4/Mafia DE sort of thing, but something in between; that is different from 3, but requires the same amount of effort/cost to the developer as the remaster.

 

Dude, you seriously think it would just require one extra worker and the same amount of effort and cost? Come on.

[Lioshenka]

4 hours ago, suicidehummer said:

Dude, you seriously think it would just require one extra worker and the same amount of effort and cost? Come on.

 

Well, yeah. Weren't all GTAs written by pretty much two people, the Housers? All that was needed for a "new" game was for someone to tweak the existing story and throw in a few interesting facts to make it work with the new engine and features. One could have done it by just harvesting the ideas on these forums.

 

And if you look at the screenshots, it's clear that all of the models were re-modelled or re-textured, so the amount of effort spent on the Trilogy was comparable to creating a new game, especially if the premise and the storyline generally stayed the same. A junior 3d artist could probably spit out 1-2 streets a day, given how low poly the trilogy map remains. Have they created a game that was different from the original, it would have influenced people like me to buy it, whereas at the moment I don't see it worthy of purchasing for the simple reason that its few benefits don't justify the equally minor sacrifices and the price.

 

I'm not saying the trilogy is bad, it just lacks passion and creativity of the older games, but it seems that this is the way R* are heading now.

[CynicalMexican]

46 minutes ago, Lioshenka said:

 

Well, yeah. Weren't all GTAs written by pretty much two people, the Housers? All that was needed for a "new" game was for someone to tweak the existing story and throw in a few interesting facts to make it work with the new engine and features. One could have done it by just harvesting the ideas on these forums.

 

No I don't want cappy fanfiction /s

 

But in all seriousness, the idea of 'expanding on the lore is something I have or had hopes for - unused dialogue, new arcs, new characters, missions given more context and cutscenes, and such. Maybe we will see some of that... remains to be seen.

[suicidehummer]

2 hours ago, Lioshenka said:

 

Well, yeah. Weren't all GTAs written by pretty much two people, the Housers? All that was needed for a "new" game was for someone to tweak the existing story and throw in a few interesting facts to make it work with the new engine and features. One could have done it by just harvesting the ideas on these forums.

 

And if you look at the screenshots, it's clear that all of the models were re-modelled or re-textured, so the amount of effort spent on the Trilogy was comparable to creating a new game, especially if the premise and the storyline generally stayed the same. A junior 3d artist could probably spit out 1-2 streets a day, given how low poly the trilogy map remains. Have they created a game that was different from the original, it would have influenced people like me to buy it, whereas at the moment I don't see it worthy of purchasing for the simple reason that its few benefits don't justify the equally minor sacrifices and the price.

 

I'm not saying the trilogy is bad, it just lacks passion and creativity of the older games, but it seems that this is the way R* are heading now.

 

Written, maybe. Not developed. Adding a new story involves all kinds of extra work, from voice acting to scripting, to storyboarding, to all the digital work involved in creating the visuals and probably more. When you think about the work that already went into this project, GSG was surely at full working capacity already.

 

And it's not supposed to be "creative" or significantly different from the original, it's a remaster.

[turbocharger]

I'm sorry if it's been asked before, but I was curious if someone knows if the remaster will use some of the vehicles from onepiece's/unopescio's GTA III HD cars mod? 

If memory serves me right, those models were amazingly detailed for III's standards.

I'm almost certain it won't and on top of that, it's highly questionable if it's even possible for legal reasons. Just an interesting thought.

[SquoniX]

8 minutes ago, turbocharger said:

I'm sorry if it's been asked before, but I was curious if someone knows if the remaster will use some of the vehicles from onepiece's/unopescio's GTA III HD cars mod? 

If memory serves me right, those models were amazingly detailed for III's standards.

I'm almost certain it won't and on top of that, it's highly questionable if it's even possible for legal reasons. Just an interesting thought.

 

They will either make their own or do nothing. Lucid Games has already been in trouble for doing this with Liberty City Stories on Android when they took assets from a modder.

[yoječ]

51 minutes ago, turbocharger said:

I'm sorry if it's been asked before, but I was curious if someone knows if the remaster will use some of the vehicles from onepiece's/unopescio's GTA III HD cars mod? 

If memory serves me right, those models were amazingly detailed for III's standards.

I'm almost certain it won't and on top of that, it's highly questionable if it's even possible for legal reasons. Just an interesting thought.

That's unlikely; the models used in the Definitive edition look less detailed than onepiece's recreations. Quick comparison: (Definitive edition on top)

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by yoječ

[turbocharger]

I forgot how sweet his models were, onepiece really gifted this community a masterpiece (no pun intended).

 

Too bad, but oh well. Thanks for the comparison pic.