Was Smoke always intended to betray you?

[Smash Bandicoot]

We do know for a fact Ryder's betrayal was decided later in development and he was never meant to betray you, but what about Smoke? is it possible he was going to remain CJ's friend VERY early in development (Like, Alpha build early, maybe a point in development where SF and LV weren't even added yet)

 

There's some things that in my opinion point to this:

 

1. In the mission "Los Sepulcros", Sweet tells CJ that the homie he and Smoke killed, Little Weasel (refering to the event of the previous mission, Doberman) is getting buried at the Vinewood cemetery... yeah right, none of this ever happens in the Doberman, and given the fact that the mission is barely even complete, had many iterations, and barely even made into the final version of the game, we can pretty much guess this was a very early version of the mission, potentially before the removed C.R.A.S.H. iteration which still has stuff leftover in the game files.

 

2. In the mission "Drive-By", none of the characters ever say a thing about Smoke, not one thing, he's not in the cutscene, and his presence makes little difference in the grand scheme of things, the only spoken dialogue that comes out of his mouth in the whole mission could very well be taken from a different context from a cut section of a mission or a cut mission, this is odd, for more details, check out this video by KeV3n 

 

3. In the mission "House Party" Ryder tells the gang that he's going to get Smoke, but he never comes back, we know for a fact that the reasoning behind is has nothing to do with his betrayal, as that wasn't even planned yet, so, what could really be going on? was the mission going to be longer? were Ryder and Smoke supposed to appear? what really happened here?

 

 

Let me know what you guys think, was Big Smoke's betrayal planned from the very beginning? was it not?

 

[GhettoJesus]

4 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

2. In the mission "Drive-By", none of the characters ever say a thing about Smoke, not one thing, he's not in the cutscene, and his presence makes little difference in the grand scheme of things, the only spoken dialogue that comes out of his mouth in the whole mission could very well be taken from a different context from a cut section of a mission or a cut mission, this is odd, for more details, check out this video by KeV3n 

I don't see the connection between this and Smoke not being an antagonist.

 

I am pretty sure Smoke's betrayal was planned from the beginning. He has a statue of himself with the beta model so it's clear that he was intended to be a villain long before the game was finished. Also there are more things that hint towards his betrayal. Compare the signs to Ryder's signs which are pretty much non-existent. Smoke was always meant to be the villain.

[Smash Bandicoot]

29 minutes ago, GhettoJesus said:

I don't see the connection between this and Smoke not being an antagonist.

 

I am pretty sure Smoke's betrayal was planned from the beginning. He has a statue of himself with the beta model so it's clear that he was intended to be a villain long before the game was finished. Also there are more things that hint towards his betrayal. Compare the signs to Ryder's signs which are pretty much non-existent. Smoke was always meant to be the villain.

Well, why doesn't he kill Sweet in the mission OG Loc and help him kill a rival gangster (Whoever the f*ck Casanova is)?

[randomman99]

There were signs that he is gonna betray Grove Street in the beginning of the game. 

Like not shooting at the ballas

Making A Long Order so ballas have time to prepare ( i'll have 2 number 9's)

Also he was making some sentences that make no sense.

[CynicalMexican]

I think the OP is looking at very circumstantial little tidbits to make a theory work that's a huge stretch at best.

[Smash Bandicoot]

6 hours ago, randomman99 said:

There were signs that he is gonna betray Grove Street in the beginning of the game. 

Like not shooting at the ballas

Making A Long Order so ballas have time to prepare ( i'll have 2 number 9's)

Also he was making some sentences that make no sense.

2 of these have counters:

-He shoots at the ballas, specifically in the aforementioned "Drive-By"

-Him ordering had really nothing to do with ballas arriving, he literally ended up eating everyone else's food and I doubt a fatass like him would risk his life like that.

[GhettoJesus]

21 hours ago, randomman99 said:

Making A Long Order so ballas have time to prepare ( i'll have 2 number 9's)

To be fair that was probably a coincidence, if he really wanted to give time to the Ballas he should have suggested pizza or hamburgers instead of chicken. Also it is heavily implied that he relays the orders of the homies before he makes his own. Notice how he says two number 9s and number 6 with extra dip. These are what Carl, Ryder and Sweet wanted. He gets a big number 9, a number 7, two number 45s (one with cheese) and a large soda.

 

15 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

-He shoots at the ballas, specifically in the aforementioned "Drive-By"

That could be because he was added later. But even if Kev3n's theory is wrong, the Ballas doesn't suffer any big casualties during the missions. It isn't implied that any high ranking members died during that mission. In the longterm the Ballas gets to rule the city and get rich from selling drugs. This outweighs the death of some random members. Furthermore the word of Big Smoke's involvement may not spread. It was probably GSF but who exactly? They probably won't suspect Smoke. I think your theory is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

Edited August 25, 2021 by GhettoJesus

[Smash Bandicoot]

13 minutes ago, GhettoJesus said:

That could be because he was added later. But even if Kev3n's theory is wrong, the Ballas doesn't suffer any big casualties during the missions. It isn't implied that any high ranking members died during that mission. In the longterm the Ballas gets to rule the city and get rich from selling drugs. This outweighs the death of some random members. Furthermore the word of Big Smoke's involvement may not spread. It was probably GSF but who exactly? They probably won't suspect Smoke. I think your theory is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

Why would Smoke refer to his targets in "Nines and AKs" as "Balla fools" if he was on good terms with them? why the f*ck would they blow up his vehicle and try to kill him in the first mission?

[conmebosta]

From what I heard, Rockstar had a disagreement with Ryder's voice actor so they had to change plans to make the betrayal happen earlier in the story than it should have. Also there were several features and consequentially missions cut because of the ps2's technical limitations that almost made Rockstar split the game in two discs. Basically GTA San Andreas is a game that was too big for its time and Rockstar had to cut things. This is the reason as to why things are that way but the story still makes sense.

At the introduction movie of the story Grove Street has lost almost all of its influence because of Sweet's refusal to deal drugs and so Tempenny tries to manipulate Smoke into making Sweet open the drug trade and when Sweet doesn't change they order a hit on him which ends up killing Beverly. Big Smoke tries to pull Ryder to his side by saying that Crash will make their lives miserable but here is the part where I disagree with most interpretations of GTA San Andreas Storyline: Big Smoke and Ryder did not betray Grove until the mission Reuniting the Families. Sure they ran some errands and had Crash visit their place regularly before then but the mission was a trap laid by Tempenny who wanted Sweet to either die so Big Smoke could take charge and allow drugs to flow or be arrested and also have him as blackmail for CJ to do more things for him. Smoke and Ryder were told in advance about what was going to happen so they left the scene and returned only when they thought it was finished to make sure CJ and Sweet were arrested or dead. The mission Green Sabre is the definitive proof that they set them up for good and that is the time that they ended up succeding in taking over Grove.

[randomman99]

11 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Why would Smoke refer to his targets in "Nines and AKs" as "Balla fools" if he was on good terms with them? why the f*ck would they blow up his vehicle and try to kill him in the first mission?

Because he said a lot of nonsense like ,,If you can eat your food, while everybody else is losing theirs and blame on you, you straight homie'' And cj said "what?" So it made him kinda look suspicious that's why he said balla fools also C.R.A.S.H  forced him to betray grove street he couldn't kill sweet so he hired ballas to do the work for him. And while everyone was at cj's mom funeral he was in cj's house holding a bat? He wanted to kill Sweet probably since he didn't know CJ was coming. Anyways i don't see the smoke as a bad guy. He was forced to do this by C.R.A.S.H.

11 hours ago, GhettoJesus said:

To be fair that was probably a coincidence, if he really wanted to give to the Ballas he should have suggested pizza or hamburgers instead of chicken. Also it is heavily implied that he relays the orders of the homies before he is making his own. Notice how he says two number 9s and number 6 with extra dip. These are what Carl, Ryder and Sweet wanted. He gets a big number 9, a number 7, two number 45s (one with cheese) and a large soda.

I agree it's just some theories i read.

[santosvagos]

Deleted.

Edited August 25, 2021 by santosvagos

[GhettoJesus]

14 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Why would Smoke refer to his targets in "Nines and AKs" as "Balla fools" if he was on good terms with them? why the f*ck would they blow up his vehicle and try to kill him in the first mission?

Are you trolling again? I refuse to believe that you are STILL this thick. Smoke is pretty mediocre at covering up his ties with the Ballas. At times he appears as a loyal GSF member who fervently dislikes other gangs whereas other times he slips up sometimes. That time he was doing pretty okay. As for his vehicle, there are multiple explanations. It could be that the Ballas did not know that it was his vehicle (reminder that he also has a Glendale) or maybe it was an accident.

[Smash Bandicoot]

24 minutes ago, GhettoJesus said:

Are you trolling again? I refuse to believe that you are STILL this thick. Smoke is pretty mediocre at covering up his ties with the Ballas. At times he appears as a loyal GSF member who fervently dislikes other gangs whereas other times he slips up sometimes. That time he was doing pretty okay. As for his vehicle, there are multiple explanations. It could be that the Ballas did not know that it was his vehicle (reminder that he also has a Glendale) or maybe it was an accident.

You're literally being ignorant. They literally drove by him and saw his face and chased him while being on a bike, infact, there's LITERALLY unused dialogue for the possibility of the Ballas chasing Smoke 

Also, the Glendale is literally the new car he bought after the OG one blew up, the TF you on about

[GhettoJesus]

1 hour ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Also, the Glendale is literally the new car he bought after the OG one blew up, the TF you on about

When is that confirmed in the game?

[Smash Bandicoot]

1 hour ago, GhettoJesus said:

When is that confirmed in the game?

Why would Smoke use a slow ass minivan over something like a Glendale?

[GhettoJesus]

46 minutes ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Why would Smoke use a slow ass minivan over something like a Glendale?

That's a station wagon. And there could be plenty of reasons. The Glendale was being repaired, Smoke felt like driving that car, he lent it to someone etc. Also considering that Smoke obeys the rule of the road it's unlikely that he will hit the maximum speed of either vehicles so why does it matter if it's slow?

[Guest]

On 8/25/2021 at 3:26 AM, Smash Bandicoot said:

Why would Smoke refer to his targets in "Nines and AKs" as "Balla fools" if he was on good terms with them?

To cover up the fact that he was on good terms with them¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  I mean it would be dumb if he say "Grove Fools" instead.

[CynicalMexican]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:58 AM, Andrew005 said:

To cover up the fact that he was on good terms with them¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  I mean it would be dumb if he say "Grove Fools" instead.

Yes, one mission does not negate his other ones.

[Ppog]

In the first mission, smoke puts his baseball bat onto the table, which hits the frame of Carl's mother. Also, what was Smoke doing in CJ's house? 

I think Smoke was always going to be a betrayer, unlike Ryder. 

[CynicalMexican]

11 hours ago, Ppog said:

In the first mission, smoke puts his baseball bat onto the table, which hits the frame of Carl's mother. Also, what was Smoke doing in CJ's house? 

I think Smoke was always going to be a betrayer, unlike Ryder. 

 

Real reason he was in CJ's house:

 

[GhettoJesus]

18 hours ago, Ppog said:

In the first mission, smoke puts his baseball bat onto the table, which hits the frame of Carl's mother. Also, what was Smoke doing in CJ's house? 

Many speculate that Smoke was about to assassinate Sweet. As Sweet returns home from the funeral Smoke attacks him with a baseball bat. Hence why he says "You picked the wrong house fool!" since Sweet could have entered either his or his mother's house. Of course this is just a theory and it has its own flaws.

[CynicalMexican]

Given that Beverly Johnson was recently murdered, it's not unreasonable to think Big Smoke was told by Sweet to watch the house until CJ arrived, hence why he was so aggressive in that scene.

[Osho-II]

No, Smoke was never intended to betray Grove Street. He loved it very much and was only forced to betray the gang because he was forced by Tenpenny. Ryder never cared about Grove and would betray the gang on his own because he hated CJ and was always jealous and never had one moment where he said anything nice to him at all.

[GhettoJesus]

8 hours ago, Osho-II said:

Ryder never cared about Grove and would betray the gang

Funnily enough if you complete Ryder's missions GSF members will start carrying submachine guns.