So why does Big Smoke get all the attention yet Ryder doesn't?

[Rob72891]

Something has always bugged me about Smoke and Ryder's betrayal. Everyone pays more attention to Smoke more than Ryder. CJ's all like "Smoke!" "Smoke sold us out!" "Hey Sweet! It's Smoke! He sold us out!" "Smoke this!" "Smoke that!" That's all he talks about the entire time! Not one mention about Ryder. Hell no one else even mentions Ryder either. Tenpenny tells CJ to "Stay the f*ck away from Smoke and stay the f*ck away from us!" not even mentioning Ryder one time. Also, during The King In Exile, Cesar states that the bad guys are "Your stinkin' Grove Street brother Smoke, and those chota pigs, Tenpenny and Pulaski!" Never mentions Ryder one time even though he was with those 3 as well. Even when you kill Ryder, it's treated more like icing a minor Balla with no dramatic feel whatsoever. Even Pulaski's death was treated more dramatically than that. And everyone just forgets him. Yet Smoke is the one who gets all the focus and people only talk about him, and his death is not only more focused as far as antagonists goes, it's treated more sympathetically and dramatically. So my question here is why is it that Smoke gets all the focus as the traitor of the game yet Ryder is treated more like a minion who is not only ignored throughout the rest of the way, but is also forgotten about after his demise? (No, I am not saying people should cry over his demise. I want to know why Smoke gets all the attention yet Ryder is completely relegated as a minor character who does absolutely nothing the rest of the way before being killed.)

[Dr Busta]

Smoke is an attention whore

Ryder isn't

[Liberty City Executioner]

I personally think that Ryder’s betrayal was done a bit haphazardly and in the fashion they did it, it was probably just to write him out of the story. I think that a good option of rewriting SA is to have Ryder remain loyal to the Grove Street Families. However, if someone really wanted to keep his betrayal in the game, I would personally recommend giving him a bigger role by perhaps being Big Smoke’s underboss in the crack palace in which Big Smoke is a drug lord of Los Santos. Have CJ finish both him and Big Smoke off at roughly the same time. A user on this site named WatersGTA had Ryder remain loyal to the Grove Street Families on a site called Fanfiction.net and I have to say, he did it quite beautifully.

[JetNormalGuy]

Eveybody seems to agree on the fact that Ryder isn't mentioned much is because he wasn't supposed to be an antagonist, but then apparently his VA couldn't voice Ryder and thus, Rockstar couldn't handle the character that well, so they decided to just kill him and write him off the story by simply making him a traitor. It becomes even more obvious when you replay the game where Ryder is barely mention (only being talked about in Photo Opportunity) and Rockstar recycling voicelines for the mission where you kill him.

[Liberty City Executioner]

In addition to it being a good idea to give Ryder a bigger role in the story, I honestly think it would be a good idea if anyone else just so happens to have desire to rewrite SA is to give B Dup and Big Bear a bigger role in a similar fashion to Ryder. I personally would also recommend giving the Russian Mafia and Claude slightly bigger roles too. I mean, not MUCH bigger roles per se. Just a little bigger if you know what I mean. Sorry if I went off on a tangent.

 

OT:

I would also like to add that I personally find it kinda weird how after Ryder’s death, the rest of the story has practically nothing to do with him even though he was such a close friend of Sweet, Big Smoke, and CJ.

[Adminsaredicks]

Because Ryder is Ninja!

[Rhoda]

I never saw Ryder as a credible threat, even during the reveal that he was a traitor. We saw him at the meeting with the Loco Syndicate, and it barely took any effort at all to mow them down. We took two of them out in the same mission. Big Smoke on the other hand is a master at manipulation, or at least he is in the confines of the storyline. In hindsight now it's obvious, but if we leave plot armor out of the equation he's made stronger connections than Ryder ever could and the reveal is so much more devastating. Ryder was portrayed as being a delusional, stoned idiot with ideas above his station. Smoke knew when to keep quiet and who's palms to grease in order to get what he wanted. Instead of cutting about in public, he was making deals behind the scenes having couriers do the dirty work whilst he sat in his fortress, smoked crack and played video games. The fact that he's relatively easy to kill doesn't make him any less of a threat, because his presence haunts us through-out the storyline. We hear his adverts on the radio and the DJs we've come to learn the voices of praise him. We hear of OG Loc's rise to fame thanks to Smoke's influence. We even hear sponsorship messages, and not to mention the constant phone calls we receive in San Fierro from Cesar warning us of the cash leaving the city, or the drugs being brought back. Ryder was foolish enough to jump into bed with the next biggest thing the Ballas were involved with, and from the missions we take part in following the meeting, it's clear that Ryder really had no idea what was actually going on.

[CynicalMexican]

Because Rockstar's approach to story was in a smaller scope back in 2004.

 

I feel the forum has a bit of a fetish for the idea of an "innocent beta version Ryder". Like yes it's possible, but GTA SA's story telling isn't that great to begin with. 

 

There are plenty of unexplained plot points we can go over, like:

 

1. How did CRASH become so corrupt 

2. Why are the Vagos and Aztecas such strong enemies when they have such long distance 

3. Why were the Families and Ballas beefing to begin with, how did they form

4. How the f*ck did the Loco Syndicate even form, they exist but their lore isn't very well explained 

5. How did the Mafia rise to power in Venturas

 

And so on. Things just "exist" and have to be explained through head canon.

[Rob72891]

5 hours ago, Rhoda said:

I never saw Ryder as a credible threat, even during the reveal that he was a traitor. We saw him at the meeting with the Loco Syndicate, and it barely took any effort at all to mow them down. We took two of them out in the same mission. Big Smoke on the other hand is a master at manipulation, or at least he is in the confines of the storyline. In hindsight now it's obvious, but if we leave plot armor out of the equation he's made stronger connections than Ryder ever could and the reveal is so much more devastating. Ryder was portrayed as being a delusional, stoned idiot with ideas above his station. Smoke knew when to keep quiet and who's palms to grease in order to get what he wanted. Instead of cutting about in public, he was making deals behind the scenes having couriers do the dirty work whilst he sat in his fortress, smoked crack and played video games. The fact that he's relatively easy to kill doesn't make him any less of a threat, because his presence haunts us through-out the storyline. We hear his adverts on the radio and the DJs we've come to learn the voices of praise him. We hear of OG Loc's rise to fame thanks to Smoke's influence. We even hear sponsorship messages, and not to mention the constant phone calls we receive in San Fierro from Cesar warning us of the cash leaving the city, or the drugs being brought back. Ryder was foolish enough to jump into bed with the next biggest thing the Ballas were involved with, and from the missions we take part in following the meeting, it's clear that Ryder really had no idea what was actually going on.

Which brings up the next question: What was even the point of turning him into a traitor to begin with?

[DAN753]

Reason for that is because Ryder originally wasn't meant to be a traitor but in fact to be loyal to GS. Reason why that is changed is because Ryder's voice actor in the middle of the game creation gave refusal because he wanted more money so the developers decided to get rid off him in that way. But I don't know why at least they didn't gave him any attention. Really stupid if you ask me. 

[CynicalMexican]

23 hours ago, DAN753 said:

Reason for that is because Ryder originally wasn't meant to be a traitor but in fact to be loyal to GS. Reason why that is changed is because Ryder's voice actor in the middle of the game creation gave refusal because he wanted more money so the developers decided to get rid off him in that way. But I don't know why at least they didn't gave him any attention. Really stupid if you ask me. 

Can we PLEASE stop with this false narrative?

 

MC Eiht has NO beef with R*, in fact he produced "Welcome to Los Santos" for GTA 5!

 

This is PURE hearsay, there are NO sources to back this up. 

 

It's possible MC Eiht may not have had been able to finish recording his lines, but still!

[Ser_Salty]

Think they might've planned to give Ryder a slightly different story/end. Not saying you would've been best bros later on or something, but that he would've occupied a different role and died in a different way. Many of the later missions involving him were changed very last minuted (switched with T-Bone in Pier 69, Photo Opportunity originally being in a helicopter) and I reckon at the point where they were changed MC Eiht was too busy with his music career and couldn't come in to record new lines, so they had to make do.

[CynicalMexican]

42 minutes ago, Ser_Salty said:

Think they might've planned to give Ryder a slightly different story/end. Not saying you would've been best bros later on or something, but that he would've occupied a different role and died in a different way. Many of the later missions involving him were changed very last minuted (switched with T-Bone in Pier 69, Photo Opportunity originally being in a helicopter) and I reckon at the point where they were changed MC Eiht was too busy with his music career and couldn't come in to record new lines, so they had to make do.

 

This is what I'm willing to believe. I do think there may have been some big story changes for Ryder, especially with how awkward his betrayal was. Even B Dup, OG Loc, and Big Bear received better send offs than Ryder. 

 

And yes, MC Eiht certainly could've had a lot going on at that point. The whole "he hates R*" angle just needs to die.

[Alekx]

On 8/8/2021 at 12:32 PM, Ser_Salty said:

Think they might've planned to give Ryder a slightly different story/end. Not saying you would've been best bros later on or something, but that he would've occupied a different role and died in a different way. Many of the later missions involving him were changed very last minuted (switched with T-Bone in Pier 69, Photo Opportunity originally being in a helicopter) and I reckon at the point where they were changed MC Eiht was too busy with his music career and couldn't come in to record new lines, so they had to make do.

I agree with this too. I think Ryder had a different story planned. I think he was supposed to do something else or even be somewhere else, that would explain the absence when it comes to dialogues, it would also make sense that MC Eiht did not have enough time to record voice lines (probably from phone calls or cutscenes) so R* decided to turn him into a traitor

[Ser_Salty]

2 minutes ago, Alekx said:

I agree with this too. I think Ryder had a different story planned. I think he was supposed to do something else or even be somewhere else, that would explain the absence when it comes to dialogues, it would also make sense that MC Eiht did not have enough time to record voice lines (probably from phone calls or cutscenes) so R* decided to turn him into a traitor

No, I'm sure he was always meant to be a traitor, it was just supposed to play out differently. Like maybe CJ would've found out during Photo Opportunity or something.

[Alekx]

9 hours ago, Ser_Salty said:

No, I'm sure he was always meant to be a traitor, it was just supposed to play out differently. Like maybe CJ would've found out during Photo Opportunity or something.

I never said not betraying. I do think he was supposed to do something entirely different from the version that we got , maybe extending his role onto phone calls and even cutscenes after leaving LS for the first time

[Adminsaredicks]

For me Ryder arc doesnt make any sense. He act like loyal idiot for me.

 

Big Smoke is enough for big twist, so why Ryder? 

 

Making Ryder traitor is GTA:SA biggest mistake...

[Pyschemat]

You could tell Ryder was a true one. He yelled at Big Smoke for not shooting when they went to Cluckin' Bell to get food. It was pretty obvious he was just brainwashed into turning against GSF.

[Osho-II]

Because Big Smoke is actually one of the most iconic characters with an actual point of the story while Ryder is an unimportant, uniconic character who no one gives a sh*t about. I don't see why you people actually like that c*nt after everything he does to CJ, and he has the stupidest dialogue and attitude ever. You people are all as retarded as Ryder himself if you really like and care about him at all.

[KanewillyE75]

Maybe it's because Ryder doesn't pose a threat to Carl like Smoke

[zmudziak32]

Well, Ryder could die in Green Sabre, when he and Sweet were ambushed. They didnt had to make him traitor like in final game. Sweet was badly wounded, but Ryder could just die in similar way like Hilary protect Tommy Crew in Vice City.

[drcherrybomb]

On 8/4/2021 at 12:23 AM, CynicalMexican said:

Because Rockstar's approach to story was in a smaller scope back in 2004.

 

I feel the forum has a bit of a fetish for the idea of an "innocent beta version Ryder". Like yes it's possible, but GTA SA's story telling isn't that great to begin with. 

 

There are plenty of unexplained plot points we can go over, like:

 

1. How did CRASH become so corrupt 

2. Why are the Vagos and Aztecas such strong enemies when they have such long distance 

3. Why were the Families and Ballas beefing to begin with, how did they form

4. How the f*ck did the Loco Syndicate even form, they exist but their lore isn't very well explained 

5. How did the Mafia rise to power in Venturas

 

And so on. Things just "exist" and have to be explained through head canon.

I mean, if R* actually released "San Andreas Stories" we would have gotten to see how everything had been initially fleshed out. But R* had GTA IV on their hands already so they had no time.

 

On 8/3/2021 at 3:25 PM, Dr Busta said:

Smoke is an attention whore

Ryder isn't

Comedy gold.

 

On 12/5/2021 at 2:47 AM, Osho-II said:

Because Big Smoke is actually one of the most iconic characters with an actual point of the story while Ryder is an unimportant, uniconic character who no one gives a sh*t about. I don't see why you people actually like that c*nt after everything he does to CJ, and he has the stupidest dialogue and attitude ever. You people are all as retarded as Ryder himself if you really like and care about him at all.

 Lol you Ryder haters are something else I swear.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by DR Cherry Bomb
My God why do I make accidental grammatical mistakes?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!??!?!?!??!??!?!?

[Cluckin Bell CEO]

Because Ryder gets killed early and Smoke is there in the final mission.

[Evil empire]

Because Ryder is a motherfµcking genius as discreet as a ninja.

[drcherrybomb]

15 hours ago, Evil empire said:

Because Ryder is a motherfµcking genius as discreet as a ninja.

Or because the main.scm wanted it to be the way it is?

Edited May 29, 2022 by DR Cherry Bomb

[Papayamamba]

I think with advancement of AI speech synthesis - there are already many services that can set up a voice profile based on material the user provides - and mission editing, we are quite close to being able to do alternate storylines convincingly, with just about any character. GTA:SA has so much voiceovers recorded, I'm pretty sure we could teach an aforementioned AI system to mimick Ryder's voice convincingly. Question is money, effort, time, intention.

 

We need to get access to such a system, and feed it original Ryder voicelines.

 

Then someone needs to write the story properly, along with dialogues.

 

Then someone needs to edit the missions / alter the actual storyline.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Papayamamba

[Copcaller]

Because smoke was the mastermind Ryder was a lackey