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Take-Two vs The GTA Modding Community, 2021 E&E Edition


Ash_735
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Hi everyone, just wanted to add:

 

We've discussed this privately with Ash, and we're happy for everyone to resume discussing the recent events and the impact these decisions may have.

 

The last topic took a disappointingly different turn, which we would like to avoid in this new topic. This is a line in the sand so please just let everyone focus on what is really important here; the modding community and the future of modding, which GTANet as a platform and many of our staff do acknowledge and support.

 

Any posts of the nature that led to the closure of the previous topic will be removed and dealt with on a zero tolerance basis, no exceptions, including general toxicity, meme spam and sh*t posts, threats about death and violence, and harassment/hate/brigading over staff.

 

Thanks.

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Wakka387

congrats on getting this important thread brought back :)

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Is there any logical reason behind it or this reason is rumoured Trilogy remaster?

 

Taking down mods decade on internet is far fetched even for me, yet this happen...

 

Very anti consumer, fans policy. There is no way that new players to the series jump straight from GTA Online to 3D era mods...

 

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Claude_Lib

Once again, I find Take-Two's actions absolutely illogical, immoral and insulting. Then again, they taught the majority of GTA Online playerbase that modders equal hackers and cheaters so it's not surprising.

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GhettoJesus
On 7/31/2021 at 9:59 PM, Ash_735 said:

Thankfully the gaming media have been keeping an eye on this situation and seem to sympathise and side with the GTA Modding community, with the news even being discussed by the guys at Digital Foundry during one of their podcasts (timestamped here):

I am surprised they didn't start shilling. Seemingly T2 and R* didn't comment on the matter. How long did it take for them to revise their policy in 2017 once the media took a stand?

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Spider-Vice

May I add that certain mods like GTA Underground and GTA LC are still up on GTAForums with their mirror links, we haven't received any direct take down requests (in terms of topics or posts) and that only ModDB and GTA5Mods links were taken down thus far. 

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Carbonox

What this case has taught us is that explicit non-gamers, their even greedier shareholders and the slimy Jack Thompson wannabes in their legal team have zero business owning a game franchise or deciding what consumers should do with the products.

 

Let it be known.

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The_Ghost
On 7/31/2021 at 9:14 PM, Ondr4H said:

Is there any logical reason behind it or this reason is rumoured Trilogy remaster?

This is the only thing I am thinking of right now, and even then it's not good for the modding community

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Spider-Vice
On 7/31/2021 at 8:59 PM, Ash_735 said:

multiple changes and words were changed to pretty much add in a disclaimer that Take-Two can override any of this

May I also add one thing - although Take-Two did add point (iv) about maps, stories, etc. to the article in 2019, they did NOT add the final disclaimer about that statement "not being a licence" and about being able to object to projects at any time. Several posts in the original 2017 topics that copy pasted the original article already had this in them! No overrides were added, just point (iv).

 

https://gtaforums.com/topic/889348-take-two-vs-modding/?do=findComment&comment=1069677480

Ash, you yourself back then said that map mods were off-limits even: https://gtaforums.com/topic/889348-take-two-vs-modding/?do=findComment&comment=1069677752

https://gtaforums.com/topic/890303-rockstars-response-to-single-player-mod-policy

https://gtaforums.com/topic/889557-the-people-vs-take-two-openiv-mod-shut-down/?do=findComment&comment=1069677606

 

Here's a Diffchecker between both articles, 2017 and current as well, based on previous posts - they literally only added point (iv): https://www.diffchecker.com/6VRyddGs

 

This is not an agree/not agree post, I'm just trying to fact check here.

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Ash_735
On 7/31/2021 at 10:49 PM, Spider-Vice said:

May I also add one thing - although Take-Two did add point (iv) about maps, stories, etc. to the article in 2019, they did NOT add the final disclaimer about that statement "not being a licence" and about being able to object to projects at any time. Several posts in the original 2017 topics that copy pasted the original article already had this in them! No overrides were added, just point (iv).

 

https://gtaforums.com/topic/889348-take-two-vs-modding/?do=findComment&comment=1069677480

Ash, you yourself back then said that map mods were off-limits even: https://gtaforums.com/topic/889348-take-two-vs-modding/?do=findComment&comment=1069677752

https://gtaforums.com/topic/890303-rockstars-response-to-single-player-mod-policy

https://gtaforums.com/topic/889557-the-people-vs-take-two-openiv-mod-shut-down/?do=findComment&comment=1069677606

 

Here's a Diffchecker between both articles, 2017 and current as well, based on previous posts - they literally only added point (iv): https://www.diffchecker.com/6VRyddGs

 

This is not an agree/not agree post, I'm just trying to fact check here.

Back then it was only in regards to RAGE titles, that's why I was quiet when map mods for GTAV were taken down, the OpenIV court document stated that the main focus was RAGE as they did not want other video game content shown in it nor did they want to see older IP's running in it. It was always understood that RenderWare era titles were open reign as they did not take any action on them nor did they seem to care about them once highlighted. That suited most people fine.

 

It's only recently that Take-Two decided to go nuketown on anything referencing Liberty City, Vice City, San Andreas, etc, whether it was RAGE or RenderWare. That's what we'd like clarity on.

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BS_BlackScout
On 7/31/2021 at 6:49 PM, Spider-Vice said:

I need to go easy on the meds, I can barely remember posting this. Thankfully I did! 

Good find!
_

On 7/31/2021 at 7:01 PM, Ash_735 said:

It's only recently that Take-Two decided to go nuketown on anything referencing Liberty City, Vice City, San Andreas, etc, whether it was RAGE or RenderWare. That's what we'd like clarity on.

 

I think it really just boils down to (iii) use or importation of other IP (including other Rockstar IP) in the project.

Though there's a slightly concerning exception that is Vice Cry. Which seems to make it quite obvious what this is all about. 
That one I would assume falls under (iv) making new games, stories, missions, or maps.  

Even though it's the same game with the same map, it's difficult to tell because this support article isn't even a legal document.

It goes nowhere as deep as what is acceptable or not, just a lot of nuance that T2 can suddenly decide "nope, that ain't right. stop".

Edited by BlackScout
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Ash_735
On 7/31/2021 at 11:13 PM, BlackScout said:

I think it really just boils down to (iii) use or importation of other IP (including other Rockstar IP) in the project.

Though there's a slightly concerning exception that is Vice Cry. Which seems to make it quite obvious what this is all about. 
That one I would assume falls under (iv) making new games, stories, missions, or maps.  

Even though it's the same game with the same map, it's difficult to tell because this support article isn't even a legal document.

It goes nowhere as deep as what is acceptable or not, just a lot of nuance that T2 can suddenly decide "nope, that ain't right. stop".

Exactly, the way they've worded things has been in a way that Take-Two could always do this but the question is WHY NOW? What's changed? Why not try this back in 2019 when they made the amendments? Why even add point IV? There's just this cloud of uncertainty around it and it really would be best if Rockstar took notice and clarified it clearly again like they did back in 2017.

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skatefilter5

Just like Nintendo, kinda tho.  

 

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Good to see this thread is back up.

  

On 8/1/2021 at 12:01 AM, Ash_735 said:

Back then it was only in regards to RAGE titles, that's why I was quiet when map mods for GTAV were taken down, the OpenIV court document stated that the main focus was RAGE as they did not want other video game content shown in it nor did they want to see older IP's running in it. It was always understood that RenderWare era titles were open reign as they did not take any action on them nor did they seem to care about them once highlighted. That suited most people fine.

 

It's only recently that Take-Two decided to go nuketown on anything referencing Liberty City, Vice City, San Andreas, etc, whether it was RAGE or RenderWare. That's what we'd like clarity on.

They did however mention R* titles specifically. The problem with the statement is that it basically says "we're T2, and we will do what we please when it comes to targeting modding on any of our IPs". It's a bit of a slap in the face when you think about it.

Edited by dkluin
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Claude_Lib

I utterly despise the very idea of that "agreement". When two sides collectively come to a solution that fits them both, that is an agreement. What we have here is an act of capitulation, where Take-Two basically said "Okay, you live for now, but on our terms" and we had no choice but to go with it. The very idea of them reserving the right to take down literally any mod they don't like without giving any sort of explanation or trying to talk it through is absolutely disgusting.

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Lioshenka

I don't really understand what the big surprise is. Each GTA's user agreement clearly says in black on white (or white on black) that any modification of the game files voids the user agreement and is illegal. It's actually quite nice of Take-two not to pursue legal action for damages from the modmakers.

 

Surely any modmaker knew that this could happen at any time?

 

PS I agree that this is a stupid thing for a game publisher to do, but it's hardly a surprise for anyone who has agreed to the GTA T&Cs

 

ADDED Having consulted the GTA SA EUA I must correct myself by adding that it appears that certain modifications are allowed, but they'd have to be fairly small and non-intrusive; pretty much any global mod voids the agreement.

Edited by Lioshenka
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Lioshenka
On 8/1/2021 at 8:05 AM, Claude_Lib said:

hen two sides collectively come to a solution that fits them both, that is an agreement.

You accepted the agreement when you proceeded with the game installation. If you disagreed with the terms of the license you could have stopped the installation and applied for a re-fund.

 

I'm not defending R*'s recent ill-though legal action, I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Edited by Lioshenka
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Ash_735
On 8/1/2021 at 10:46 AM, Lioshenka said:

I don't really understand what the big surprise is. Each GTA's user agreement clearly says in black on white (or white on black) that any modification of the game files voids the user agreement and is illegal. It's actually quite nice of Take-two not to pursue legal action for damages from the modmakers.

 

Surely any modmaker knew that this could happen at any time?

 

PS I agree that this is a stupid thing for a game publisher to do, but it's hardly a surprise for anyone who has agreed to the GTA T&Cs

 

ADDED Having consulted the GTA SA EUA I must correct myself by adding that it appears that certain modifications are allowed, but they'd have to be fairly small and non-intrusive; pretty much any global mod voids the agreement.

In which case wouldn't Rockstar's own words about Single Player modding contradict that? That very same T&C also says it's illegal to stream and broadcast the game but they also seem fine with that. There's a lot in these T&C's that they do not enforce but seem to have there just in case.

 

Again, we need clarification on this, Rockstar stood up in 2017 and told us what was allowed, now what was allowed isn't allowed? Why?

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On 8/1/2021 at 9:05 AM, Claude_Lib said:

I utterly despise the very idea of that "agreement". When two sides collectively come to a solution that fits them both, that is an agreement. What we have here is an act of capitulation, where Take-Two basically said "Okay, you live for now, but on our terms" and we had no choice but to go with it. The very idea of them reserving the right to take down literally any mod they don't like without giving any sort of explanation or trying to talk it through is absolutely disgusting.

Agreement like this is only noble name for "We own you" !

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Lioshenka
On 8/1/2021 at 12:02 PM, Ash_735 said:

In which case wouldn't Rockstar's own words about Single Player modding contradict that? That very same T&C also says it's illegal to stream and broadcast the game but they also seem fine with that. There's a lot in these T&C's that they do not enforce but seem to have there just in case.

 

Yeah, but it's like illegally parking on a road bend, the council will ignore it for decades, and one day they'll send a warden and fine every car in the vicinity; it doesn't mean that until then it was legal. R* managers change, and with that changes their attitude towards rule breaking; but the EUA remains the same. I always lived under the assumption that once you created a mod for a game you broke the law, so there's always a Damocles's sword hanging over a modder's head.

 

Didn't Rockstar talk about single player modding on their forum? Because it's not legally binding and wouldn't stand in the court of law; it just indicated their intentions at that given time while the contract is what was shipped with the game.

 

By the way, I explicitly asked R* is I can monetise videos that feature GTA SA footage or make reference to the story or characters; and they said no, this is not allowed; so they are definitely not okay with (most of) streaming.

 

ADDED I wonder if it's just an overly eager intern that recently started in R* Legal department trying to prove their worth...

Edited by Lioshenka
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Zorak-2
On 7/31/2021 at 10:01 PM, Ash_735 said:

Back then it was only in regards to RAGE titles, that's why I was quiet when map mods for GTAV were taken down, the OpenIV court document stated that the main focus was RAGE as they did not want other video game content shown in it nor did they want to see older IP's running in it. It was always understood that RenderWare era titles were open reign as they did not take any action on them nor did they seem to care about them once highlighted. That suited most people fine.

 

It's only recently that Take-Two decided to go nuketown on anything referencing Liberty City, Vice City, San Andreas, etc, whether it was RAGE or RenderWare. That's what we'd like clarity on.

Sorry, where I can find this court documents?

Edited by Zorak-2
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Ash_735
On 8/1/2021 at 4:18 PM, Lioshenka said:

 

Yeah, but it's like illegally parking on a road bend, the council will ignore it for decades, and one day they'll send a warden and fine every car in the vicinity; it doesn't mean that until then it was legal. R* managers change, and with that changes their attitude towards rule breaking; but the EUA remains the same. I always lived under the assumption that once you created a mod for a game you broke the law, so there's always a Damocles's sword hanging over a modder's head.

 

Didn't Rockstar talk about single player modding on their forum? Because it's not legally binding and wouldn't stand in the court of law; it just indicated their intentions at that given time while the contract is what was shipped with the game.

 

By the way, I explicitly asked R* is I can monetise videos that feature GTA SA footage or make reference to the story or characters; and they said no, this is not allowed; so they are definitely not okay with (most of) streaming.

 

ADDED I wonder if it's just an overly eager intern that recently started in R* Legal department trying to prove their worth...

The thing is we KNOW this, practically any game has these safe guard EULAs that prevent pretty much ANYTHING except leasing you a license to play the game, not stream it, not mod it, not even look at the files but it always boils down to how a company chooses to act on that.

 

Rockstar themselves used to PROMOTE mods back on their website, there was always a nice relationship between Rockstar and the modding in the early days (excluding Hot Coffee) but things changed after GTA Online was released and then it being Take-Two who tried to come out in full force and make ANY modding of their games illegal, that's what lead to the this "agreement" with Rockstar stepping in and saying no, that's not good, we're cool with Single Player mods as long as the following isn't breached.

 

And now, suddenly it's not again? With no warning or heads up, just a flat out attack on the community which was also done at the same time as the Tuners update coming out to act as a distraction, it feels like we deserve SOME comment on this such as why now, what's changed, why choose this point in 2021 to act on rules that were changed on the sly in 2019 but also going back on the comments made by Rockstar themselves in 2017?

 

On 8/1/2021 at 4:57 PM, Zorak-2 said:

Sorry, where I can find this court documents?

Sadly court documents can not be shared, I can only paraphrase what was in them. It's mainly details about the OpenIV case in 2017 though going back and forth.

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Zorak-2
On 8/1/2021 at 5:36 PM, Ash_735 said:

The thing is we KNOW this, practically any game has these safe guard EULAs that prevent pretty much ANYTHING except leasing you a license to play the game, not stream it, not mod it, not even look at the files but it always boils down to how a company chooses to act on that.

 

Rockstar themselves used to PROMOTE mods back on their website, there was always a nice relationship between Rockstar and the modding in the early days (excluding Hot Coffee) but things changed after GTA Online was released and then it being Take-Two who tried to come out in full force and make ANY modding of their games illegal, that's what lead to the this "agreement" with Rockstar stepping in and saying no, that's not good, we're cool with Single Player mods as long as the following isn't breached.

 

And now, suddenly it's not again? With no warning or heads up, just a flat out attack on the community which was also done at the same time as the Tuners update coming out to act as a distraction, it feels like we deserve SOME comment on this such as why now, what's changed, why choose this point in 2021 to act on rules that were changed on the sly in 2019 but also going back on the comments made by Rockstar themselves in 2017?

 

Sadly court documents can not be shared, I can only paraphrase what was in them. It's mainly details about the OpenIV case in 2017 though going back and forth.

I understand, thank you.

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I've been just outright shell-shocked since all of this BS started. But the real question is, why is it suddenly so wrong to mod GTA games when that had been happening nearly two decades now? I can't really buy the "GTA Trilogy rema-ster/ke stuff is happening" theory considering how R* had been making billions over billions from the little zoomer kiddos over at GTAO for the past eight years, there's literally no point (and profit) in this for them to do something for the old and nostalgic boomer fanbase. I don't know why, but I have a gut feeling that R* is going to steal fan-made content from the mods that T2 took down and use them in their future projects and/or ports of their old games.

Edited by H-G
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cp1dell

Glad this is back up for discussion. I haven't heard anything about this, surely seemed like this was going to fade into obscurity. Hope to see more updates on this.

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Modding is bad! Except when they can use community assets and tools for cheap "remastered" ports to make a quick buck

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Ash_735

Actually do you guys think it's worth adding another section to the OP highlighting how Rockstar used to promote modding and how modding tools were used by War Drum, etc?

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LarcenousUrsine
On 8/1/2021 at 9:53 PM, Ash_735 said:

Actually do you guys think it's worth adding another section to the OP highlighting how Rockstar used to promote modding and how modding tools were used by War Drum, etc?

That's a must. Some nice food for thought and a nice tidbit for a comparison.

Edited by LarcenousUrsine
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NightmanCometh96
On 8/1/2021 at 2:53 PM, Ash_735 said:

Actually do you guys think it's worth adding another section to the OP highlighting how Rockstar used to promote modding and how modding tools were used by War Drum, etc?

IIRC, didn't Lucid Games also use textures from a GTA III mod for the mobile version of LCS? (It may have been the Xbox HD conversion textures, but it's been a while since I read about it.)

Edited by NightmanCometh96
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