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Putting down the myth that Ryder wasn't supposed to die


bananaking13
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bananaking13

There's been a rumor going around recently that Ryder wasn't supposed to die, and was only killed off because MC Eiht didn't want to continue playing the role. It most likely was started by Kev3n or another gta youtuber, so I'm going to put this rumor to sleep.

  1. MC Eiht is still cool with rockstar, He made the Welcome to Los Santos song in GTA 5 with Freddie Gibbs.
  2. The most common argument is that "He doesn't have any lines that indicate he was being chased to death in Pier 69" but there's a reason for that, Ryder was originally meant to get killed in the Pier while T-Bone was chased out, but Rockstar felt it wouldn't be climatic enough.
  3. In "Drive-Thru", Ryder accidentally slips up and says he knew they were going for Sweet, but Big Smoke covered up for him by saying "he knows what people are like, say they have love for you and never say a word"
  4. And finally, the entire ethos of the story is its anti-drug message. In the entire storyline, almost everything goes perfect for CJ except the fact he has to kill his two best friends. The drugs ruined Ryder & Big Smoke's lives and lead to their demise, even though Ryder wasn't that much of an addict he just did sherm and sold crack.

Ryder was never meant to survive the game's events. He was meant to be killed by CJ in Pier 69 and that was the end for him.

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CynicalMexican

I think this rumor has so much life because Ryder's death was written so poorly. He has no final words, and we never get much insight into why he sold out to crack.

 

I guess we're looking at this with present bias - story writing in GTA games during this time wasn't that great, but still, Ryder's betrayal is hardly explored. 

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On 7/18/2021 at 11:21 PM, bananaking13 said:
  • MC Eiht is still cool with rockstar, He made the Welcome to Los Santos song in GTA 5 with Freddie Gibbs.
  •  

exactly! people make up sh*t and say he left rockstar for some reasons

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bananaking13
On 7/20/2021 at 4:23 AM, CynicalMexican said:

I think this rumor has so much life because Ryder's death was written so poorly. He has no final words, and we never get much insight into why he sold out to crack.

 

I guess we're looking at this with present bias - story writing in GTA games during this time wasn't that great, but still, Ryder's betrayal is hardly explored. 

I disagree. I think Ryder's betrayal at first feels whimsical, but the more you replay the game, the more you understand it. Ryder's true motivation was getting high, the game has a strong anti-drug message and Ryder/Big Smoke's deaths were naturally bound to happen because they cared about drugs more than anything else, and that conflicts with their position as Grove Street OGs.

Opportunity knocked for Ryder. He had to pick either Grove Street or getting high, and he went with the latter. Everything went behind the scenes as far as we know and while it could come off as poor writing, I think its ambiguity is good because many people feel like we didn't get enough of the Grove Street 4 and with that there's a lot of theories as to what went on. MC Eiht getting in a fight with Dan Houser is not one of them.

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On 7/21/2021 at 3:21 AM, bananaking13 said:

MC Eiht getting in a fight with Dan Houser is not one of them.

I'm not sure who ever came up with this rumor. Like mentioned already he ended up making another hit for R*. Getting on Eiht's bad side would be last thing Dan would ever want to deal with since if they did their research on him (which they did), know he would be the last person to f*ck around with at the time. But fortunately no, Eight has been cool with them this whole time. I respect that for a triple OG like Eight. The whole Ryder dying early thing must have been a change throughout the story by R*. Not any personal issues with him. 

 

Edited by Big_Smiley
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bananaking13
On 7/22/2021 at 4:26 AM, Big_Smiley said:

I'm not sure who ever came up with this rumor. Like mentioned already he ended up making another hit for R*. Getting on Eiht's bad side would be last thing Dan would ever want to deal with since if they did their research on him (which they did), know he would be the last person to f*ck around with at the time. But fortunately no, Eight has been cool with them this whole time. I respect that for a triple OG like Eight. The whole Ryder dying early thing must have been a change throughout the story by R*. Not any personal issues with him. 

 

Well I don't really know what he did, but I loved him in Menace II Society (great movie, Cesar, Tenpenny & Big Smoke are in it too, and too $hort from Radio los santos too)

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billiejoearmstrong8

Like every single other rumour about what something was "supposed" to be in a GTA game it's 100% bs made up by wishful thinking fans. R* simply doesn't reveal that type of information.

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On 7/21/2021 at 1:21 PM, bananaking13 said:

I disagree. I think Ryder's betrayal at first feels whimsical, but the more you replay the game, the more you understand it. Ryder's true motivation was getting high, the game has a strong anti-drug message and Ryder/Big Smoke's deaths were naturally bound to happen because they cared about drugs more than anything else, and that conflicts with their position as Grove Street OGs.

Opportunity knocked for Ryder. He had to pick either Grove Street or getting high, and he went with the latter. Everything went behind the scenes as far as we know and while it could come off as poor writing, I think its ambiguity is good because many people feel like we didn't get enough of the Grove Street 4 and with that there's a lot of theories as to what went on. MC Eiht getting in a fight with Dan Houser is not one of them.

But, early on in the story, Ryder was against drugs, more technically, crack that dealers sell throughout Los Santos in order to weaken the Families. While it's true that he was into drugs, he was smoking his homemade weed, or "water", not crack, and he never offered the other homies to smoke it (except for CJ, that is). Even if you take his addiction to weed into account, he's shown to be genuinely supportive of the Grove Street Families in various missions before "The Green Sabre" and he never had any intentions to weaken the gang with his drugs, something that can't be said for Big Smoke.

 

I have my beliefs that Ryder never meant to betray the Families and that Smoke brainwashed him with crack. While I do agree that Ryder should've stayed dead, his death should've happened much, much later in the story, probably in the "Return to Los Santos" chapter. That way, Ryder's death would've probably had an impact on par with Big Smoke's.

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On 7/22/2021 at 1:46 AM, bananaking13 said:

Well I don't really know what he did, but I loved him in Menace II Society (great movie, Cesar, Tenpenny & Big Smoke are in it too, and too $hort from Radio los santos too)

It's not what he did, its who he is. Eiht is a highly respected Compton street OG. The dude has practically survived the major real life LA gang wars of the late 1970's through the early 2000's. Way before he found an opportunity as an actor he was in gansta rap group CMW (Comptons Most Wanted) making some serious ganster rap hits. I still had some of their cassets laying around in old ass boxes somewhere. He went solo soon after again making some serious street rough gangsta hits. Before he found his way into the gansta rap scene he was an active Compton Crip on the streets. Now near his mid 50's, Eiht is simply living a safe normal life that he put behind some time ago.

 

The Lord himself must have always had an angel on his shoulder for him to survive 80's-90's Compton as an active member. That's why I love R* for what they do. They do their research perfectly into who they get for voice acting their characters. Eiht was perfect for Ryder's character. 

As with everyone else I just wish R* would have kept Ryder in a lot much longer. His character was beyond what the term means for memorable characters. 

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On 7/22/2021 at 4:16 AM, Ivan1997GTA said:

But, early on in the story, Ryder was against drugs, more technically, crack that dealers sell throughout Los Santos in order to weaken the Families. While it's true that he was into drugs, he was smoking his homemade weed, or "water", not crack, and he never offered the other homies to smoke it (except for CJ, that is).

What Ryder was smoking in every single damn cutscene was Reefer dipped in PCP. What he refers to as water. That is a dangerous combination of drugs mixed together. Which is why I think Ryder was blown out of his f*cking mind by smoking that sh*t every single time. That sh*t f*cks up your mind simple as that. Weed and PCP is a strong combination that should never be mixed but yet Ryder was making his own when CJ came in his house, lmaoo. It's not what crack is by making you into a lost base head but there's a reason why CJ would call him a Sherm head because a weed blunt with sherm??? pffff..fuuck. I'm glad I always passed on that crap when some of the fools would smoke it. There's some serious plot holes with Sweet and his anti drug-free gang status when one of the Grove OG's would be smoking this nasty sh*t almost every single time. Looking back at it now I'm sure Ryder was in LaLa land the whole f*cking time with CJ, lmaoo.  

 
Edited by Big_Smiley
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While I do agree that MC Eiht having disputes with Rockstar is all a rumor, it still doesn't mean Ryder was always meant to be a traitor. We're not sure if Rockstar did or didn't originally intend to turn Ryder into a traitor, but based on how poorly written Ryder's betrayal is and how he got the bridge dropped on him, it's obvious his betrayal was a last minute set-up. Aside from ditching CJ and Sweet along with Big Smoke in Reuniting the Families, there aren't really any clues to his betrayal, and he has no clear motives at all. Sure he smokes weed (albeit mixed in with PCP), but that's common with anyone who live in LA. That's hardly considered a sign. Also, Grove Street are only against hard drugs like crack. They never mentioned anything about marijuana.

 

And K3vin even admitted in his analysis video of Ryder that Eiht having disputes with Rockstar was only a theory. Another theory is that maybe MC Eiht was busy recording albums during the game's production and probably wasn't able to have more time recording more dialogue for the character, which is the more believable theory since Veterans Day and his collaboration album with Spice 1 were both released in the same year. So maybe Eiht just simply had no time with future dialogue for the character since he was more busy with making music.

 

Another thing I want to bring up is how poorly Ryder's betrayal was written. No one brings him up at all, no one mentions him after his demise (seriously, considering CJ never even mentions Ryder when he tells Sweet about Smoke's betrayal, Sweet doesn't even know Ryder betrayed the gang too, nor does he even ask about his whereabouts), and the commit Cesar brings up about Ryder banging Kendl just came out of nowhere without a single hint about the topic. All in all, Ryder was just a character thrown right into the trash can for whatever reason. Maybe Rockstar just had no choice what to do with him and just decided to turn him into a traitor at the very last second, or maybe Ryder wasn't originally going to be a main character and instead just a side character that Rockstar decided at the very last minute to make him a main character without planning his role well at all. I just found it unfair how Big Smoke got all the attention as one of the main antagonists who gradually gains all the sympathy while Ryder is completely ignore and forgotten after his demise.

 

As for Ryder's fate, like K3vin showed in his video, Ryder should have been killed as a loyal member of the GSF to bring in more of a motivation for CJ to go after Smoke, which I think would have made a lot more sense with Ryder's fate in the game. At least the rewrite version of the game's storyline gives Ryder a much more notable role.

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bananaking13
On 7/22/2021 at 3:20 PM, Big_Smiley said:

What Ryder was smoking in every single damn cutscene was Reefer dipped in PCP. What he refers to as water. That is a dangerous combination of drugs mixed together. Which is why I think Ryder was blown out of his f*cking mind by smoking that sh*t every single time. That sh*t f*cks up your mind simple as that. Weed and PCP is a strong combination that should never be mixed but yet Ryder was making his own when CJ came in his house, lmaoo. It's not what crack is by making you into a lost base head but there's a reason why CJ would call him a Sherm head because a weed blunt with sherm??? pffff..fuuck. I'm glad I always passed on that crap when some of the fools would smoke it. There's some serious plot holes with Sweet and his anti drug-free gang status when one of the Grove OG's would be smoking this nasty sh*t almost every single time. Looking back at it now I'm sure Ryder was in LaLa land the whole f*cking time with CJ, lmaoo.  

 

I'm not gonna cape for Rockstar here, but I have to say I don't think this was a plothole, Ryder was the 3rd highest ranking member in Grove Street. Grove were basically finished at the start of the storyline, B Dup was with the Ballas, Big Bear became a crack slave, OG Loc was in prison and anyone outside of Ganton was not with the families. Sweet had no power or authority to tell Ryder to stop his drug use, and his bond with Ryder was way too strong for him to be capped, not to mention Sweet's main problem was with crack and not drugs as a whole.

 

On 7/22/2021 at 3:27 PM, Rob72891 said:

While I do agree that MC Eiht having disputes with Rockstar is all a rumor, it still doesn't mean Ryder was always meant to be a traitor. We're not sure if Rockstar did or didn't originally intend to turn Ryder into a traitor, but based on how poorly written Ryder's betrayal is and how he got the bridge dropped on him, it's obvious his betrayal was a last minute set-up. Aside from ditching CJ and Sweet along with Big Smoke in Reuniting the Families, there aren't really any clues to his betrayal, and he has no clear motives at all. Sure he smokes weed (albeit mixed in with PCP), but that's common with anyone who live in LA. That's hardly considered a sign. Also, Grove Street are only against hard drugs like crack. They never mentioned anything about marijuana.

 

And K3vin even admitted in his analysis video of Ryder that Eiht having disputes with Rockstar was only a theory. Another theory is that maybe MC Eiht was busy recording albums during the game's production and probably wasn't able to have more time recording more dialogue for the character, which is the more believable theory since Veterans Day and his collaboration album with Spice 1 were both released in the same year. So maybe Eiht just simply had no time with future dialogue for the character since he was more busy with making music.

 

Another thing I want to bring up is how poorly Ryder's betrayal was written. No one brings him up at all, no one mentions him after his demise (seriously, considering CJ never even mentions Ryder when he tells Sweet about Smoke's betrayal, Sweet doesn't even know Ryder betrayed the gang too, nor does he even ask about his whereabouts), and the commit Cesar brings up about Ryder banging Kendl just came out of nowhere without a single hint about the topic. All in all, Ryder was just a character thrown right into the trash can for whatever reason. Maybe Rockstar just had no choice what to do with him and just decided to turn him into a traitor at the very last second, or maybe Ryder wasn't originally going to be a main character and instead just a side character that Rockstar decided at the very last minute to make him a main character without planning his role well at all. I just found it unfair how Big Smoke got all the attention as one of the main antagonists who gradually gains all the sympathy while Ryder is completely ignore and forgotten after his demise.

 

As for Ryder's fate, like K3vin showed in his video, Ryder should have been killed as a loyal member of the GSF to bring in more of a motivation for CJ to go after Smoke, which I think would have made a lot more sense with Ryder's fate in the game. At least the rewrite version of the game's storyline gives Ryder a much more notable role.

Ryder's betrayal wasn't poorly written in my opinion. I think R* wanted to keep it ambiguous, the reason he hardly gets mentioned is because he was Smoke's pawn and the way I personally see it nobody in Grove Street would see Ryder as a traitor, and he would get a hero's death. Also, what is the rewrite version?

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On 7/25/2021 at 12:59 PM, bananaking13 said:

Ryder's betrayal wasn't poorly written in my opinion. I think R* wanted to keep it ambiguous, the reason he hardly gets mentioned is because he was Smoke's pawn and the way I personally see it nobody in Grove Street would see Ryder as a traitor, and he would get a hero's death. Also, what is the rewrite version?

Okay, so why even have Ryder appear alongside Smoke in the first place if R* wanted to keep his betrayal ambiguous? That makes no sense at all. What was even the point of keeping him in that cutscene in the first place? And what do you mean no one in Grove Street would see him as a traitor? No one even knows that he was killed, except for CJ and Cesar. Not to mention it still doesn't explain why Sweet doesn't even ask about him at all following his release from prison since CJ never brings Ryder up when telling Sweet about Smoke's betrayal.

 

And I mean the rewrite of this story called "GTA San Andreas Rewrite". It's in Fanfiction and fixes some plotholes and develops some of the characters. And you can read it over at Fanfiction yourself.

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On 7/25/2021 at 12:59 PM, bananaking13 said:

Sweet had no power or authority to tell Ryder to stop his drug use, and his bond with Ryder was way too strong for him to be capped, not to mention Sweet's main problem was with crack and not drugs as a whole.

The logic over the hard drug free case with GSF is what I refer to. Take tokes every day see where your head ends up after having marry jane with angel mixed in. In the case with Ryder he loved his sticks. Sweet not having the authority to bust at Ryder would only make him even more of a useless gang leader as he already is by not straight checking his OG's since he's top leader with his brother by second command. Smoke and Ryder asses don't matter here whatsoever besides the fact that they've made OG status within the gang itself. All leader shot calling power resides over the Johnson Family and Kendl could have had that power aswell but didn't take that route within the gang. The Johnsons name have a notorious reputation in Los Santos for a reason and every single gang in LS knows this.

 

*Balla notices Carl wearing green in their territory*

 

"That better not be no muthaf*ckin Johnson Boy in this in muthaf*ckin neighborhood....."

 

 

At one point GSF were the most active and most powerful gang in the 1970's through the mid 80's before crack would come in and destroy all neighborhoods leading to the downfall of the most notorious gang in LS with The Grove, now Ballas replacing them as the most powerful gang in the events when Carl makes his return to early 90's LS. These details make me wish we saw a SA stories to truly explain the rise in power with GSF. I've always said this but the Father of the Johnson boys must have started the gang way up into the late 1960's early 1970's with rising up to notoriety in the streets. Of course that's all simple self theories and whatnot but the fact that Emet is truly the oldest member in the gang answers that GSF had major power in the 70's 80's before their downfall. Just some things we never truly got with a SA stories of some sort. Carl was the only one straight checking Ryder which caused him to act pissy about his drug use cause CJ knew just how bad it was to have an addiction towards PCP but Ryder just simply didn't give a flying f*ck what anyone else thought which I loved from him. Just a reckless OG smoking his wet cigs causing straight mayhem. And I do agree that Sweet simply had a large bond with Ryder. Technically even more than with CJ at one point since Carl was in LC for the past five years while Ryder and Sweet were taking care of things on the West Coast with the gang you could say. 

 

 

Edited by Big_Smiley
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