Claude isn’t evil

[Ceasey]

On 7/10/2021 at 5:21 AM, iloveclaude said:

Claude is generally considered the most evil gta protag (by people who know gta games besides V and online exist)
But that’s unfair. Many other protegs have done way worse than him. The characters from gta V are domestic terrorists (by force but still) and niko Bellic was a human trafficker. 
Claudes only motive was revenge. Revenge on his abusive ex girlfriend that abused him sexually,physically,emotionally and verbally (and possibly r*ped him as well) .she also shot left him and left him for dead. He was MORE than justified in getting revenge on her. 
Claude only goes after people that f*ck him over first. The only person he betrayed is kenji. But by this point he had been screwed over by Salvatore,King Courtney and his ex girlfriend. Kenji had expressed his anger with Claude very openly before this point (unless you got stuck on the mission grand theft auto…which I did) so it wasn’t ridiculous for Claude to assume the worst of him and retaliate first as his former bosses had betrayed him without warning. People have also said that Claude was manipulated by Donald love to kill him but I don’t think that’s it. Could be true tho
Money isn’t his motive. Money is almost useless in gta 3.
Claude isn’t cold blooded or personality-less either. He’s mute so he doesn’t get much character development. He’s just closed off and emotionaless from trauma (compare his body language in gta 3 to San Andreas). 
He just does whatever job will get him to the goal of getting revenge on Catalina. 
Claude is just a victim of abuse trying to get his revenge and having to do some unsavory things to get there. He isn’t evil.

He is not evil, he's just a silent resonable person.

[Spartak2811]

I know some fanboys will attack me for my opinion, or someone will approve it. But I don’t care.

Claude's story is one simple question: why do you need enemies if you're saboteur on your own?

Storyline showed us that the main antagonist, enemy and villian is not Catalina. It's Claude himself. He is not better than Catalina, either he is same as her or even worse than her. He also killed everyone he saw and who forced him to do it for money, he also stabbed in the back to everyone, who trusted him, who ever came in contact with him for his self satisfaction. Claude’s selfish attitude is same as Catalina: he uses everyone in his wishes and goals, and when he sees that he/she competed all goals and doesn’t need him anymore, drains them like used condom.

He tricked CJ giving him old awful garage in San Fierro, he got involved with Catalina and Colombian Cartel for 9 years, who just used him as a handy instrument and temporary consolation that she got rid of in 2001, he meekly killed everyone for money, he crashed barely alive and bandaged man, which is unprecedented cruelty, he stabbed in the back to Yakuza and Asuka personally, killing her brother Kenji secretly, and hypocritically and despicably serving to Asuka like nothing happened. Like I have nothing to do with it. And Asuka blindly trusted him and believed that Miguel betrayed by Catalina, killed her brother for real. That blind trust played a fatal role in her sad death. He stabbed in the back to two women (second is possibly, 50/50, my opinion is below), who saved his life from inevitable death and treated him well. When he came to construction side and saw Catalina’s note about Maria what was Claude’s reaction for Asuka’s dead body? Nothing. He passed her dead body like nothing happened.

He carried out the massacre on the dam killing the whole Cartel and, finally, got his revenge on his ex-girlfriend, as a result of which local innocent residents suffered and died.

And in the ending, if we accept the opinion that Claude killed/stabbed in the back Maria during final credits (it’s very controversial, 50/50, of course, Maria has something to criticize, no doubt, she's the most controversial female in all GTA franchise, but I still think that he didn't kill her and I didn't change my mind for almost 15 years of playing, as it took more than 20 years to realise that the gunshot is just a sfx glitch, but still), Claude will prove that he’s much worse than Catalina. He doesn’t need friends. Hell, he doesn't even need enemies. He’s saboteur on his own. He will prove that he’s the scum. Sneaky, lying, selfish, arrogant and hypocritical scum, who ready to kill, to rob, to stole and to stab in the back to everyone who trusts him. And players still call Catalina and Trevor heartless bastards? Are you damn seriously? T is an angel in the flesh compared with Claude. Catalina? Yes, she’s a heartless. But Claude is more heartless bastard and scum, than they both. He is the most evil, emotionless, heartless, inhuman, disloyal, dishonorable, soulless, cynic and cruel protagonists. Only Antonio "Toni" Cipriani can compete him in violence and cruelty, cause he killed and dismembered a man by his ma's order, selling his remains to his own restaurant, and blew up an entire neighborhood, resulting in the death of many innocent residents. But Toni is one of the most loyal protagonists at all. He is honest to his family and to his boss, who has become like a second father to him.

"Experience has taught me that a man like you can be very loyal for the right price..." - Donald Love (also one of the most evil characters).

The moral of GTA 3’s storyline is a simple question: why do you need enemies if you’re saboteur of your own?

Owned!

Edited February 18, 2022 by Spartak2811

[atay26]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:02 PM, Spartak2811 said:

I know some fanboys will attack me for my opinion, or someone will approve it. But I don’t care.

Claude's story is one simple question: why do you need enemies if you're saboteur on your own?

Storyline showed us that the main antagonist, enemy and villian is not Catalina. It's Claude himself. He is not better than Catalina, either he is same as her or even worse than her. He also killed everyone he saw and who forced him to do it for money, he also stabbed in the back to everyone, who trusted him, who ever came in contact with him for his self satisfaction. Claude’s selfish attitude is same as Catalina: he uses everyone in his wishes and goals, and when he sees that he/she competed all goals and doesn’t need him anymore, drains them like used condom.

He tricked CJ giving him old awful garage in San Fierro, he got involved with Catalina and Colombian Cartel for 9 years, who just used him as a handy instrument and temporary consolation that she got rid of in 2001, he meekly killed everyone for money, he crashed barely alive and bandaged man, which is unprecedented cruelty, he stabbed in the back to Yakuza and Asuka personally, killing her brother Kenji secretly, and hypocritically and despicably serving to Asuka like nothing happened. Like I have nothing to do with it. And Asuka blindly trusted him and believed that Miguel betrayed by Catalina, killed her brother for real. That blind trust played a fatal role in her sad death. He stabbed in the back to two women (second is possibly, 50/50, my opinion is below), who saved his life from inevitable death and treated him well. When he came to construction side and saw Catalina’s note about Maria what was Claude’s reaction for Asuka’s dead body? Nothing. He passed her dead body like nothing happened.

He carried out the massacre on the dam killing the whole Cartel and, finally, got his revenge on his ex-girlfriend, as a result of which local innocent residents suffered and died.

And in the ending, if we accept the opinion that Claude killed/stabbed in the back Maria during final credits (it’s very controversial, 50/50, of course, Maria has something to criticize, no doubt, she's the most controversial female in all GTA franchise, but I still think that he didn't kill her and I didn't change my mind for almost 15 years of playing, as it took more than 20 years to realise that the gunshot is just a sfx glitch, but still), Claude will prove that he’s much worse than Catalina. He doesn’t need friends. Hell, he doesn't even need enemies. He’s saboteur on his own. He will prove that he’s the scum. Sneaky, lying, selfish, arrogant and hypocritical scum, who ready to kill, to rob, to stole and to stab in the back to everyone who trusts him. And players still call Catalina and Trevor heartless bastards? Are you damn seriously? T is an angel in the flesh compared with Claude. Catalina? Yes, she’s a heartless. But Claude is more heartless bastard and scum, than they both. He is the most evil, emotionless, heartless, inhuman, disloyal, dishonorable, soulless, cynic and cruel protagonists. Only Antonio "Toni" Cipriani can compete him in violence and cruelty, cause he killed and dismembered a man by his ma's order, selling his remains to his own restaurant, and blew up an entire neighborhood, resulting in the death of many innocent residents. But Toni is one of the most loyal protagonists at all. He is honest to his family and to his boss, who has become like a second father to him.

"Experience has taught me that a man like you can be very loyal for the right price..." - Donald Love (also one of the most evil characters).

The moral of GTA 3’s storyline is a simple question: why do you need enemies if you’re saboteur of your own?

Owned!

I agree to disagree, some of your points are so off that it is difficult for where I should begin. You falsely claim that he killed everyone he came in contact when it was only Kenji. But Kenji was an asshole, he claimed to be a man of honour but turns out he was ego selfish scum. He only hired Claude for his benifits, runs a protection scam operation even though he doesn't actually protect any of his business. If anything Claude is the hero because he actually takes matters into his own hands and kills though's responsible for robbing and trashing up that store, would Kenji do anything like that? f*ck no. The Diablos had it coming for trying to extort an innocent vulnerable store owner. Does Claude get rewarded for his brave honour? Of course not, instead he gets yelled at by Kenji for failing to dissuade a drug deal between the Jamaicans and the cartel even when Claude did indeed ambush the deal, it wasn't his fault that the Columbians and the Jamaicans still wanted to continue to push spank around liberty. He was a crook and nothing else, people also tend to forget that the same thing happened in GTA 4 where Niko has to kill one of the McCreary brothers. I don't think Claude is that dumb enough to admit that he killed Asuka's brother, if he was truly an asshole he would have just killed Asuka right there and then. Instead he takes it as an opportunity to help her gain more control of the city while getting his revenge on Catalina. Also I wasn't aware that to be truly human, you must give out a reaction to when someone is dead.  How did he trick CJ into giving him an awful garage? He can't even talk so...? Catalina never said it was a luxurious garage either so how does it make Claude a liar? About the dam massacre, it's never stated that any of nearby civilians were killed but instead injured, even if so, Claude can't be held accountable to that. Catalina was fully responsible for the dam massacre, Claude was the one to end it. He may not be the most moral, but he certainly is far from evil. I don't remember Claude killing innocent people for no reason, causing unnecessary mayhem and so on... Claude was surrounded by the biggest scum, crooked bastards on the face of earth. 

[Comrade Monke]

On 7/10/2021 at 5:21 AM, iloveclaude said:

Claude is generally considered the most evil gta protag (by people who know gta games besides V and online exist)
But that’s unfair. Many other protegs have done way worse than him. The characters from gta V are domestic terrorists (by force but still) and niko Bellic was a human trafficker. 
Claudes only motive was revenge. Revenge on his abusive ex girlfriend that abused him sexually,physically,emotionally and verbally (and possibly r*ped him as well) .she also shot left him and left him for dead. He was MORE than justified in getting revenge on her. 
Claude only goes after people that f*ck him over first. The only person he betrayed is kenji. But by this point he had been screwed over by Salvatore,King Courtney and his ex girlfriend. Kenji had expressed his anger with Claude very openly before this point (unless you got stuck on the mission grand theft auto…which I did) so it wasn’t ridiculous for Claude to assume the worst of him and retaliate first as his former bosses had betrayed him without warning. People have also said that Claude was manipulated by Donald love to kill him but I don’t think that’s it. Could be true tho
Money isn’t his motive. Money is almost useless in gta 3.
Claude isn’t cold blooded or personality-less either. He’s mute so he doesn’t get much character development. He’s just closed off and emotionaless from trauma (compare his body language in gta 3 to San Andreas). 
He just does whatever job will get him to the goal of getting revenge on Catalina. 
Claude is just a victim of abuse trying to get his revenge and having to do some unsavory things to get there. He isn’t evil.

I was expecting this to be complete bs, but you... Actually are making sense.

 

[Comrade Monke]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:40 AM, atay26 said:

I agree to disagree, some of your points are so off that it is difficult for where I should begin. You falsely claim that he killed everyone he came in contact when it was only Kenji. But Kenji was an asshole, he claimed to be a man of honour but turns out he was ego selfish scum. He only hired Claude for his benifits, runs a protection scam operation even though he doesn't actually protect any of his business. If anything Claude is the hero because he actually takes matters into his own hands and kills though's responsible for robbing and trashing up that store, would Kenji do anything like that? f*ck no. The Diablos had it coming for trying to extort an innocent vulnerable store owner. Does Claude get rewarded for his brave honour? Of course not, instead he gets yelled at by Kenji for failing to dissuade a drug deal between the Jamaicans and the cartel even when Claude did indeed ambush the deal, it wasn't his fault that the Columbians and the Jamaicans still wanted to continue to push spank around liberty. He was a crook and nothing else, people also tend to forget that the same thing happened in GTA 4 where Niko has to kill one of the McCreary brothers. I don't think Claude is that dumb enough to admit that he killed Asuka's brother, if he was truly an asshole he would have just killed Asuka right there and then. Instead he takes it as an opportunity to help her gain more control of the city while getting his revenge on Catalina. Also I wasn't aware that to be truly human, you must give out a reaction to when someone is dead.  How did he trick CJ into giving him an awful garage? He can't even talk so...? Catalina never said it was a luxurious garage either so how does it make Claude a liar? About the dam massacre, it's never stated that any of nearby civilians were killed but instead injured, even if so, Claude can't be held accountable to that. Catalina was fully responsible for the dam massacre, Claude was the one to end it. He may not be the most moral, but he certainly is far from evil. I don't remember Claude killing innocent people for no reason, causing unnecessary mayhem and so on... Claude was surrounded by the biggest scum, crooked bastards on the face of earth. 

Agreed

[Going_To_Aruba_01]

None of R*s protagonists are exactly moral but Claude isn't as much of a backstabber as people say he is, you're bang on.

 

Salvatore only tried to blow him up because Maria lied that she was cheating on him with Claude leading to them escaping with Asuka, who then tells Claude to prove his ties to the mafia are broken by killing him (even though they obviously already f*cking are). Maria herself says he's a marked man on the mafia turf, so even if for some reason Claude loved working for the mafia, the second he shows up at Sal's mansion to apologise he'd get a face full of shotgun shells. That and the fact that he can't just say no, if he did than he could even probably be whacked himself. Claude benefits from killing Salvatore (still being target practice for Leone goons if he returns but still weakening them by taking out the Don) and its Asuka's orders. Claude has no other better reasonable choice to not to. Salvatore is a pretty funny and cool character but it's not like Claude would just say (if he could talk) no. At the end of the day Sal already tried to kill him once, its only a matter of time before he sends someone (Toni lol) to finish the job.

 

Similar thing applies to Kenji, although I doubt Kenji shouting at Claude or calling him a "gaijin" whatever that means would be enough reason to kill him lol, Claude wouldn't get far as a criminal if he killed people just for shouting at him (he stayed with Catalina for 9 years didnt he?) Ray Machowski chewed him out in that one mission and you can even see Claude recoil from the spit being thrown at his face lol, but he still gets him to Miami. (Ray is much more likable than Kenji though) Anyway, again its mainly just because it's Donald Love's orders. Kenji didn't do anything against Claude but what, is Claude going to say no to the richest guy in Liberty City? Even then Claude isn't in this for the money, his main goal is revenge against Catalina. And like I said above if for some reason he refused, Love would probably have him killed or at the very least not employ him again. And Claude lucked out yet again as Donald's scheme worked and Asuka led an all out gang war against the Columbians, cracking down on their turf and capturing and torturing Miguel as he was supposedly to blame, so Asuka can get info out of him giving Claude the advantage, all the while nobody knows he killed Kenji himself. Still pretty cold of Claude but to put a long story short, his only goal is to kill Catalina. What loyalty does he owe to a bunch of mobsters and crooks he's only known a few weeks tops?

Edited July 5, 2022 by Going_To_Aruba_01

[Comrade Monke]

On 7/11/2021 at 8:52 PM, CynicalMexican said:

Are any protags good then?

 

The only protagonist who seems to do some genuine good is probably CJ, since he takes down a crack empire and gets rid of a corrupt police force.

Tommy is pretty good. He only really killed people who f*cked him over, and otherwise he helps Ken and Lance out of trouble, helps Love fist, didn't reveal secrets of the Forellis when he was in jail and respected the mafia code of honor, later rebelled against the Forellis and prevented their expansion down there (someone will argue that Tommy was also a feared mobster, but he was significantly less cruel than the Forellis so if the Forellis were there instead of him they would bring much more evil), he also robbed the corrupt money the swat were storing in the bank thus weakening their corrupt forces. He is also shown to be opposed to the Vietnam war as he characterizes it "Ugly business". Also he sent Ken to rehabilitation and helped him escape the drugs and criminal stuff (somewhat because he got re involved later).

 

 

[atay26]

On 7/13/2021 at 2:50 AM, Sombra said:

Ok, let's really look at this -  If we go for a full canonical view, Claude's first showing with Catalina is in San Andreas where they seem to get along quite well based on the phonecalls Catalina leaves CJ. He appears in two SA missions, Wu Zi Mu and Farewell, My Love. He is not involved in the first mission cutscene, however in the second cutscene Catalina says she has a new love, and then some spiel about hitting a man with a frying pan while he sleeps - while it's not clear if she means this about Claude, if it is indeed aimed at him then this is the only instance of "abuse" right up until the moment she shoots him.

 

Is there any evidence of her abusing him " sexually,physically,emotionally and verbally (and possibly r*ped him as well)" - The Liberty Tree website had an article for Catalina which states she was involved in "a number of bank robberies in the southwest over the past three years." and that "The FBI have been after this woman for several years now, following a string of robberies in Texas and New Mexico, and now believe she may have relocated to Liberty City, possibly with an accomplice.". So it's evident that from 92-2001 they were committing robberies together - there is absolutely no indication of abuse until she betrays him.

 

Which then begs the question of does being betrayed by a criminal (and potentially hit with a frying pan) justify Claude's actions? Does that excuse him betraying Kenji? Let's talk side missions -  Rumpo Rampage, where Claude destroys the Hoods Gang Cars despite him being an associate of the Hoods. What about Marty Chonks missions? a bank manager, two thieves, Marty's wife and her lover, who have done absolutely nothing to Claude and are only murdered for monetary gain?

Tbf you make a good point, we can’t prove that Catalina really did sexually, physically, emotionally or verbally abused Claude during the 9 years. Although I don’t think people were justifying Claude’s actions? Even so I think it’s a double standard how you talk about him betraying Kenji, The yakuza made you kill Salvatore for their benefit besides it wasn’t Claude’s choice to kill Kenji not to mention that we have seen this countless times happen in gta, at the end of the day every gang/crooked cop/corporate higher up is using him so yes it’s at least somewhat justifiable for his betrayal.
 

We can’t really consider rampages canon, it’s just some side activity that exist in the 3D universe, if it was canon we would have seen the hoods turn against you.

 

Claude doesn’t murder the victims of Marty, they could have easily just walked away but they were all too money hungry and greedy enough to underestimate the other man’s lust for greed and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d try to kill Marty themselves. Don’t know why your victimising these people when throughout the game Claude is killing others he knows nothing about, it’s no different from the actions of any other protagonist. 
 

all in all yes he is evil in the sense he is a criminal, he is an anti hero. 

[Copcaller]

For what it's worth he did go out of his way to rescue Maria in the final mission. He's pretty much willing to kill anyone for money and shows zero reluctance to do so. 

[venomantas]

he kills anyone for money without questioning,he betrayed kenji for money and continued working for asuka 'till the end without making her understand

 

even asuka thought his brother was killed by catalina

 

claude has no remorse or feelings,give him the money and he gets the job well done.

[atay26]

9 hours ago, venomantas said:

he kills anyone for money without questioning,he betrayed kenji for money and continued working for asuka 'till the end without making her understand

 

even asuka thought his brother was killed by catalina

 

claude has no remorse or feelings,give him the money and he gets the job well done.

Your speaking like Kenji was some high standing citizen? How about the brothers and sisters that both Kenji and Asuka ordered the deaths of, trust me if you were in Claude’s situation I don’t think you would tell Asuka what really happened…oh wait Claude can’t speak so there you go.

 

Boo hoo, Salvatore dies without knowing who sent Claude to kill him and never found out whether Claude and Maria actually had an affair or not, yet your complaining if the same happened to Asuka or Kenji? 
 

He is a silent character? That’s a pretty unfair judgment when you don’t know what he is thinking throughout the whole game so it makes no sense why you say “he kills without questioning”.

 

 

[Max Payne]

maybe. killing anyone on sight with no personality feels more robotic than evil to me

[atay26]

16 hours ago, Max Payne said:

maybe. killing anyone on sight with no personality feels more robotic than evil to me

Sure your playing the right game?

[Guest]

I know Claude isn’t evil or nothing people just don’t understand him cause he mute I love Claude

[cant remember]

This thread is going to work wonders for Claude's defense in court.

[atay26]

4 hours ago, cant remember said:

This thread is going to work wonders for Claude's defense in court.

Pleading the 5th is a very good tactic