Sweet Wasn't Wrong

[CynicalMexican]

This is a controversial opinion, but I think it's worth posting.

 

Why Everyone Hates Sweet

Lately, it's been the trend to hate Sweet, and why not? Throughout the game, he can come across as whiny or being unnecessarily abrasive. He seems to grieve to CJ each time he can, and even by the time he gains his freedom, he's still bitter.

 

Sweet is an imperfect character by writing. Sweet was running the Families from 1988 until 1992, and he failed in that role. The gang lost credibility, territory, and many members died. This post by no means defends his mistakes. But I do want to give a bit of nuance.

 

Understanding Why Sweet Was Angry at the end

A lot of people seem to mistakenly believe that Sweet was angry and bitter at CJ by the time CJ returned to Los Santos because he was jealous, but I disagree.

 

Remember, Sweet was just released from prison, so he wasn't in the greatest state of mind. But Sweet was angry at CJ because CJ was basically about to give up.

 

Here's what I mean: CJ was telling Sweet about his newfound wealth and how they were going to give up the hood life, and live in a mansion. Sweet was disgusted by this. What if I told you he was right?

 

Why Sweet Was Right

By the time Sweet was released from prison, the Families had effectively been capitulated by the rival Ballas, who are pushing crack on the streets as part of the Loco Syndicate. Los Santos, especially its poorest neighborhoods, were effectively at the helm of an evil empire - Loco Syndicate and CRASH, colluding forces.

 

CJ was telling Sweet that they were going to get away from it, but why? Sweet knows that CJ has the power to bring a sense of justice back into the streets, but he senses that he's trying to run away, and let their traitor friend Big Smoke ruin the lives of the poor. CJ can bring down the crack empire and corrupt police force - if he doesn't, then the ghettos of Los Santos will only get worse. Morally speaking, Sweet convinced CJ to make the right choice. 

 

And the situation with Cesar's gang was just as bad - the Vagos were pushing crack in former Azteca territories. Moreover, by running away, CJ would guarantee his exile in Los Santos as a wanted man by both gangs and police, and given his assets,he can't stay away from Santos for long.

 

By the end, though, the Families become the strongest gang in the game and destroy much of the crack supply to LS, with the Ballas and Vagos having much less influence, perhaps even renouncing their ways. Tenpenny is killed, and the LSPD is probably cleaned from their corruption and will actually do their job. CJ basically becomes the most influential man in the city, and with his wealth he's probably able to direct social initiatives and make the poorer neighborhoods a much better place.

 

There are even hints in some dialogue. For example in the ending scene, Sweet says 'we need to focus on the hood' when talking about their next steps after killing Smoke. Sweet is probably referring to making life better for the citizens of Eastern LS.

 

Because Sweet was such a dick to Carl after he got out, he actually ended up making life for Los Santos' citizens better. His nagging got a drug lord killed, corrupt officers out of the force, cut off the drug supply, and probably helped the crime rate decline. So, Sweet is actually a hero.

Edited June 22, 2021 by CynicalMexican

[LeatherJacketSoldier]

Nice POV, I agree with all of it... Well, with almost all. Here's the exception:

 

1 hour ago, CynicalMexican said:

A lot of people seem to mistakenly believe that Sweet was angry and bitter at CJ by the time CJ returned to Los Santos because he was jealous

Are really there people who think Sweet behaved like that for jealousy? Man... Like CJ himself would say, "How much blow can one guy snort?!". This doesn't go for the OP, but for the people who have such a ridiculous POV. If any of them read this, in first instance Sweet is criticizing CJ when he got out of prison because he has a mind as narrow as a razor, he only cares about GSF and their territories, he can't see anything else like a sulky horse that can only look forward. In second instance, analyzing the well written game story (this goes for you, KGBeast, don't come here bullsh*tting me, "Yeah, don't bullsh*t him, Carl!"), you can arrive to the same or at least similar POV than the OP portrayed above in the topic.

[Lioshenka]

Carl isn't Sweet's slave and had zero (well, very little) responsibility before the gang. Carl can do whatever he wants, and Sweet has no right ordering him what to do. It's his damn gang, go sort it out yourself. Always creating the mess and getting other people to sort it out, straight busta.

 

He has made the life of San Andreas citizens better, granted, that still doesn't make him less of a prick. I'd say it was more of an unplanned bonus, whereas the primary objective was to keep CJ obedient.

 

I'm just saying that I disagree, which doesn't mean that you are wrong though. It's nice that game leaves so much up for our imagination.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Lioshenka

[KGBeast]

Sweet was right. CJ was and always will be a trick ass mark.

[CynicalMexican]

2 hours ago, Lioshenka said:

Carl isn't Sweet's slave and had zero (well, very little) responsibility before the gang. Carl can do whatever he wants, and Sweet has no right ordering him what to do. It's his damn gang, go sort it out yourself. Always creating the mess and getting other people to sort it out, straight busta.

 

He has made the life of San Andreas citizens better, grated, that still doesn't make him less of a prick. I'd say it was more of an unplanned bonus, whereas the primary objective was to keep CJ obedient.

 

I'm just saying that I disagree, which doesn't mean that you are wrong though. It's nice that game leaves so much up for our imagination.

No I feel you. Sweet constantly did act like a bitter prick yet never took responsibility for his errors. CJ probably wouldn't have helped that much if he were there, and had CJ stayed in LS the outcome would be much different.

[GhettoJesus]

18 hours ago, CynicalMexican said:

A lot of people seem to mistakenly believe that Sweet was angry and bitter at CJ by the time CJ returned to Los Santos because he was jealous, but I disagree.

I disagree. In my opinion Sweet seems to have the "I am the older brother and I am the leader therefore I am right" mentality. This results in the fact that he has a strong sense of pride and he wants to maintain his dominant image. CJ, the busta who ran off, accomplished a lot more than he ever managed to in a much shorter time. Of course this isn't the only reason why he is angry but I think this is part of it.

 

As to whether he is right or wrong, there is no answer that would be ultimately correct. Sweet is very narrow minded so while he realizes that Carl's achievements are tremendous he only knows the hood. Can you really blame him? Not really, that's all he knows. Then again is it worth risking your life over it? Not so much in the eyes of CJ but it is in the eyes of Sweet.

[CynicalMexican]

I know this is a tangent, but I do wonder if a GTA SA Remaster/Remake would add a lot more dialogue, cutscenes, interactions, and world building that would more clearly show motivations of everyone. Was Sweet an altruist who misplaced his good intentions by running a gang, or is he just some narrow minded hood rat whose happy with 'the way it is'. We don't really know and the way 3D universe story telling is, it's pretty much up to head canon.

[Flymystical-DJ]

The biggest attack I hear towards Sweet is that CJ earned his money so he can do whatever he wants with it. Here's the thing and here's Sweets whole point though: CJ didn't earn a god damn thing on his own. No one earns a thing on their own. We're all products of our environments. People growing up in the hood and turning to drugs aren't "weak" they're products of poverty. Crime is another product of poverty. CJ isn't some genius for making it out of the Hood he's lucky. He's lucky he learned the skills he did *from others* at a young age and actually got the opportunity to use them. He's also "lucky" that he used those skills on himself rather than doing everything he could to help the families a la Sweet.

 

So with that understanding you realize that without the people of the hood, the very people CJ was turning his back on because "they never did anything for [him]", CJ would have never made it where he is by the end game.

 

I mean yea CJ does do some seriously impressive crimes that go waaaay beyond what any normal person would do and that's commendable but (A) this is a video game and (B) what's your point? That everyone else in the hood should have driven motorcycles onto planes, burned drug fields, and made partnership with foreign criminals? That's the fair system that CJ should be defending his wealth on?

[Big_Smiley]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:54 PM, Flymystical-DJ said:

We're all products of our environments. People growing up in the hood and turning to drugs aren't "weak" they're products of poverty. Crime is another product of poverty.

You preaching mad facts here. Looking back I never thought Sweet was a buster nor a weak ass for trying to hit crack from that female base head. In the barrios or the hoods no matter what, the drugs at one given point are going to make room for even the most devoted OG there is the from the gang. Either you try it and become a product like everyone else or you start selling making big money destroying the community already bad with major gang related violence. Just the way it is. Things were simply different in the 60's and 70's. By the time the events of SA took place in the early 90's its no question why the families were falling apart. The mentality of drug free was something that was considered out of date for gangs. Obviously why Ballas and Vagos being the biggest Influential street gangs at the start making serious dollars.

 

There's this vid explaining about Sweet in a little more depth. I never agreed of Sweets mentality being stubborn as hell really but his persona was still unique from his own perspectives and beliefs.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Big_Smiley

[Guest]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:30 AM, CynicalMexican said:

Sweet is actually a hero.

It was CJ who risked his life to do Sweet's orders, therefore CJ is the hero, not Sweet.

[Ivan1997GTA]

On 6/23/2021 at 2:08 AM, CynicalMexican said:

I know this is a tangent, but I do wonder if a GTA SA Remaster/Remake would add a lot more dialogue, cutscenes, interactions, and world building that would more clearly show motivations of everyone. Was Sweet an altruist who misplaced his good intentions by running a gang, or is he just some narrow minded hood rat whose happy with 'the way it is'. We don't really know and the way 3D universe story telling is, it's pretty much up to head canon.

If Ryder were to be spared and be alive for nearly the whole game up until the final mission, where he'd sacrifice his own life, he'd probably call Sweet out on his cold demeanor towards his brother who broke him out of prison. Imagine the dialogue that would occur in Home Coming:

 

Sweet: New clothes? Ni**a, what the f*ck is this bullsh*t?

Ryder: Gee, what a nice way to greet your brother who went through so many hurdles to get you out!

Sweet: I'm sorry...I need to check on things in the hood. Man, that's the problem. CJ's always a perpetrator, running from what's real.

CJ: Hey man, sh*t's f*cked up there. You don't want to be in the hood.

Sweet: No. That's exactly where I want to be.

Ryder: But CJ has a good point. The Families fell apart since you got arrested.

Sweet: What has Carl done for our hood?

CJ: Man, what the hood done for me? Always dragging me down. Ever since I got out of the hood sh*t been cracking. That's everybody's dream, to get out of the hood...

Sweet: Man, you sound just like Smoke right now.

Ryder: Man, that sounds like busta talk to me. You know, CJ, your brother's the new busta. Sweet, you do NOT compare CJ to Big Smoke. Unlike him, CJ didn't run away from the hood on purpose! Would Big Smoke go through so much trouble to get you out of prison? Hell no!

Sweet: (sigh) I guess you're right. But a man's gotta stick to the hood no matter what!

CJ: Okay, if you two are done bickering, I'm gonna show you what's going on in the hood.

[CynicalMexican]

Man would I want to see a Ryder redemption arc

[Dr Busta]

*deleted*

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by DR:BUSTA

[Official General]

Of course Sweet was wrong. For all his anti-crack talk, the Families eventually became drug dealers in crack and lost Grove Street to the Ballas by the time of Franklin and co. in GTA V. 

[French Fries]

A little off topic, but I recently learned Sweet was voiced by Big Worm in Friday. I don't know how I didn't realize that sooner. lol

[CynicalMexican]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:16 PM, Official General said:

Of course Sweet was wrong. For all his anti-crack talk, the Families eventually became drug dealers in crack and lost Grove Street to the Ballas by the time of Franklin and co. in GTA V. 

Also off topic but I do wonder if there's some sort of continuity between the universes.

[The Made Man]

On 7/4/2021 at 4:16 PM, Official General said:

Of course Sweet was wrong. For all his anti-crack talk, the Families eventually became drug dealers in crack and lost Grove Street to the Ballas by the time of Franklin and co. in GTA V. 

GTA 5 and SA are different universes. BUT.... What happened in V with Grove Street could possibly be a "hint" by R to the fate of the Families and CJ after the end of GTA SA in the 3D universe. 

[The Made Man]

My issues with Sweet and why I don't like him is not just him not wanting to sell crack(which I agree) or him being whiney as hell(which he was) but him having a typical small minded hood mentality. He did not see the bigger picture or grand scheme of things. People like Sweet are the hood cats who stay in the hood, while guys like Big Meech and Freeway Ricky Ross outreach becomes big and successful because they saw the bigger picture. 

 

What I mean is Sweet was not interested in ANYthing outside of Grove Street especially after CJ literally became a multi-millionaire with plenty of assets and ventures. Sweet couldn't care less in fact he was pissed at CJ for even being happy about his successes. No he wanted to drag CJ back to the hood. If Sweet was smart he would've used the resources CJ acquired and turned the Families into a huge crime syndicate that has influence throughout SA. He and CJ would've muscled their way into the West Coast rap industry similar to what Suge Knights did. Families could've been like BMF. Him and CJ could've used their new influence to limit the spread of crack in their community, bride off the LSPD, and basically had the entire city under their control while locking out the Ballas and Vagos. But Sweet was only interested in regular gangbanging.

 

Another thing I disliked about him was pinning all the blame on CJ.

Edited July 7, 2021 by The Made Man

[ArmanCan]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:30 AM, CynicalMexican said:

For example in the ending scene, Sweet says 'we need to focus on the hood' when talking about their next steps after killing Smoke. Sweet is probably referring to making life better for the citizens of Eastern LS.

 

How does he plan to "Focus" on the hood? I mean "making a better life" is only possible with MONEY... money that he refused to take it from his brother CJ 

 

Other side of meddalion always try to remember this line from CJ "What the hood done for me? Always draggin me down". Let's imagine.. Big Smoke chose the sell them out and Ryder also.. GSF members are also drinking, smoking, blowing kane..That means Grove Street offers him nothing to live better and the sh*t is even getting worse because they have no intention to get themselves better... 

Edited July 28, 2021 by ArmanCan

[Official General]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:30 PM, The Made Man said:

GTA 5 and SA are different universes. BUT.... What happened in V with Grove Street could possibly be a "hint" by R to the fate of the Families and CJ after the end of GTA SA in the 3D universe. 

 

I class them as one in my own GTA world. If they both exist, somehow they gotta be linked to the same universe, just my view. 

On 7/7/2021 at 1:56 AM, CynicalMexican said:

Also off topic but I do wonder if there's some sort of continuity between the universes.

 

I personally think there is. 

[The Made Man]

On 7/7/2021 at 2:31 PM, Official General said:

 

I class them as one in my own GTA world. If they both exist, somehow they gotta be linked to the same universe, just my view. 

 

I personally think there is. 

I guess.... But there are thousands of things that contradict both universes. In GTA SA Las Venturas(Las Vegas) is in San Andreas whereas its in its own state in V. Blaine County doesn't exist in GTA SA. Ganton(Compton) doesn't exist in V instead is replaced by Davis. Rodeo(Beverly Hills) doesn't exist in GTA V instead is replaced by Rockford Hills. And these are just the small stuff when it comes to GTA SA vs V ALONE not counting the entire series when it comes to contradiction between the two universes. 

[Official General]

On 7/7/2021 at 7:43 PM, The Made Man said:

I guess.... But there are thousands of things that contradict both universes. In GTA SA Las Venturas(Las Vegas) is in San Andreas whereas its in its own state in V. Blaine County doesn't exist in GTA SA. Ganton(Compton) doesn't exist in V instead is replaced by Davis. Rodeo(Beverly Hills) doesn't exist in GTA V instead is replaced by Rockford Hills. And these are just the small stuff when it comes to GTA SA vs V ALONE not counting the entire series when it comes to contradiction between the two universes. 

 

They can be easily explained away by just imagining a renaming of certain areas by the local authorities. That's how I look at it. 

[CynicalMexican]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:43 AM, The Made Man said:

I guess.... But there are thousands of things that contradict both universes. In GTA SA Las Venturas(Las Vegas) is in San Andreas whereas its in its own state in V. Blaine County doesn't exist in GTA SA. Ganton(Compton) doesn't exist in V instead is replaced by Davis. Rodeo(Beverly Hills) doesn't exist in GTA V instead is replaced by Rockford Hills. And these are just the small stuff when it comes to GTA SA vs V ALONE not counting the entire series when it comes to contradiction between the two universes. 

Funny enough, it's not confirmed whether Las Venturas is in Nevada or San Andreas in the HD Universe.

 

For all we know, San Andreas might just be California and Nevada combined in its entirety, and the HD Universe USA is only 49 states. That's my person head canon.

[Rob72891]

The problem with Sweet is that he gets NO character development at all. The game is so obsessed with not only trying to make it so that Sweet is right, it's really trying to make the gamers sympathize with him just because of what he's going through. But there's a reason why he's one of the most hated characters of the game. First of all, he NEVER thanks CJ for bailing his ass out of prison after everything CJ did to complete the process. And before anyone says "but Sweet didn't know about that", blah blah blah... he should still know that CJ was the one who bailed him out of prison. That's the problem. Sweet is an ungrateful asshole. He's also a hypocrite. You remember how he was getting on CJ's case for not putting in any work for the hood? Sweet himself decided to give up on the hood by trying to smoke crack given to him by some emaciated crack whore instead of, oh I don't know, ACTUALLY GETTING RID OF THAT sh*t HIMSELF! And let's not even forget about how he unfairly compared CJ's dreams to get out of the hood to live a better life to Smoke betraying his gang for money. CJ wants to move up in a better life away from petty gang violence and wants the best for his own family. Big Smoke only wants to make money off selling crack and doesn't give a sh*t about his gang. CJ sounds NOTHING like Smoke at all during that moment. Another thing is that Sweet bitching about CJ acting like he's the man and getting on his case for leaving to LC thinking of his own sh*t is something that should have been said at the BEGINNING of the game, not at the end! Because that was five years ago, and CJ has gotten much better at keeping his family safe. That's why I like the rewrite version of this game better. Because CJ actually calls Sweet out on his bullsh*t and actually HAS a reason to go back to his gang instead of being because "Sweet said so!" And Sweet actually develops as a character in that version as well.

[The Made Man]

On 7/7/2021 at 5:08 PM, Official General said:

 

They can be easily explained away by just imagining a renaming of certain areas by the local authorities. That's how I look at it. 

Then you have the issue that the GTA SA map looks completely different than the GTA V map. But agree to disagree.

On 7/8/2021 at 12:47 AM, Rob72891 said:

The problem with Sweet is that he gets NO character development at all. The game is so obsessed with not only trying to make it so that Sweet is right, it's really trying to make the gamers sympathize with him just because of what he's going through. But there's a reason why he's one of the most hated characters of the game. First of all, he NEVER thanks CJ for bailing his ass out of prison after everything CJ did to complete the process. And before anyone says "but Sweet didn't know about that", blah blah blah... he should still know that CJ was the one who bailed him out of prison. That's the problem. Sweet is an ungrateful asshole. He's also a hypocrite. You remember how he was getting on CJ's case for not putting in any work for the hood? Sweet himself decided to give up on the hood by trying to smoke crack given to him by some emaciated crack whore instead of, oh I don't know, ACTUALLY GETTING RID OF THAT sh*t HIMSELF! And let's not even forget about how he unfairly compared CJ's dreams to get out of the hood to live a better life to Smoke betraying his gang for money. CJ wants to move up in a better life away from petty gang violence and wants the best for his own family. Big Smoke only wants to make money off selling crack and doesn't give a sh*t about his gang. CJ sounds NOTHING like Smoke at all during that moment. Another thing is that Sweet bitching about CJ acting like he's the man and getting on his case for leaving to LC thinking of his own sh*t is something that should have been said at the BEGINNING of the game, not at the end! Because that was five years ago, and CJ has gotten much better at keeping his family safe. That's why I like the rewrite version of this game better. Because CJ actually calls Sweet out on his bullsh*t and actually HAS a reason to go back to his gang instead of being because "Sweet said so!" And Sweet actually develops as a character in that version as well.

The problem is CJ never had any backbone and let others guide his life. This is why I can understand why some fans of GTA are not a fan of his character. The only thing I don't like is when fans who don't like him lace their dislike with racism. I like CJ but what annoyed me about him is that he let others decide his life for him. 

[billiejoearmstrong8]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:08 PM, Official General said:

 

They can be easily explained away by just imagining a renaming of certain areas by the local authorities. That's how I look at it. 

 

I think if it's a parallel universe some things can be the same/consistent and some things can be different/inconsistent. Just because they're different universes it doesn't mean nothing can be the same/linked, if that was the case we wouldn't have Lazlow and other radio characters in both (not even just the same characters, but with the same histories/timelines too), the same cities, the same car brands etc. I think the whole point of the different universes was to give more freedom in the writing/creating, not to rigidly restrict everything as separate. While I don't look at them as one and the same I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing it your way - after all they didn't choose to include Ballas and Families again and Grove Street now surprisingly taken over by Ballas for nothing. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Official General]

On 7/8/2021 at 2:47 PM, The Made Man said:

Then you have the issue that the GTA SA map looks completely different than the GTA V map. But agree to disagree.

 

 

Not really, there differences are not that great. The main difference is that the V map does not contain San Fierro and Las Venturas, it's mostly based on Southern San Andreas. But we can agree to disagree. 

 

On 7/8/2021 at 3:18 PM, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 

I think if it's a parallel universe some things can be the same/consistent and some things can be different/inconsistent. Just because they're different universes it doesn't mean nothing can be the same/linked, if that was the case we wouldn't have Lazlow and other radio characters in both (not even just the same characters, but with the same histories/timelines too), the same cities, the same car brands etc. I think the whole point of the different universes was to give more freedom in the writing/creating, not to rigidly restrict everything as separate. While I don't look at them as one and the same I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing it your way - after all they didn't choose to include Ballas and Families again and Grove Street now surprisingly taken over by Ballas for nothing. 

 

This

[CynicalMexican]

On 7/8/2021 at 8:48 AM, Official General said:

 

Not really, there differences are not that great. The main difference is that the V map does not contain San Fierro and Las Venturas, it's mostly based on Southern San Andreas. But we can agree to disagree. 

 

 

This

The funny thing is that "unseen" events in the 3D Universe are often referenced in the HD Universe, such as Lazlow's radio career, implying a degree of canonicity.

 

Maybe Niko really does exist in the 3D Universe and arrived in LC in 2008. Maybe he kills Toni at some point. 

[Flymystical-DJ]

On 7/4/2021 at 4:16 PM, Official General said:

Of course Sweet was wrong. For all his anti-crack talk, the Families eventually became drug dealers in crack and lost Grove Street to the Ballas by the time of Franklin and co. in GTA V. 

I believe a short dialogue between Franklin and Lamar reveals that Grove Street collectively got out of the hood and moved to the suburbs. Not the same universe but I like to think that the same happened to HD's Grove Street.

 

On 7/6/2021 at 8:56 PM, CynicalMexican said:

Also off topic but I do wonder if there's some sort of continuity between the universes.

Playing through GTA4 recently one of the first lines is Roman mentioning Las Venturas. It makes me think that the entire split is derived from the fact that they just didn't want to worry about keeping a cannon. It would explain why things are so similar between the two universes and only different on a technical level. I'd bet that's why they split 2D/3D universe apart too. They just didn't want to have to bother coming up with explanations.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Flymystical-DJ

[sanfierro06]

As Hopsin said in one of his songs: "why do black people gotta be the only ones who can't evolve"

As a black person, I hate people like Sweet and Lamar. Not only do they spend their lives with gangs and ghetto bullsh*t, they also drag down people who don't want to live like that.