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Does anyone think missiles and explosive cannon would be more balanced if


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... they were limited or didn’t exist?

 

For example, if jets didn’t have explosive cannons but rather normal machine guns like you see in movies?

 

And if helicopters and planes had limited homing missiles and rockets?

 

Some of them like Savage looks like it carries a rocket pod so more capacity.

 

Let me know what you think.

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Posted (edited)

Well, simply adding / changing ONE LINE in the explosion files would be a good balance, as it would mean that you'd have to be hit 'dead-on-target' for these things to kill you. 

That is the "<bUseDistanceDamageCalc value="true" />" line. 
When that is used on an explosion type, it allows a variation in the damage that is dealt by said explosion. Here's an example of what I mean below:-
 

https://gfycat.com/parchedyellowishaustralianshelduck-explosion-gtaonline-surviving-cannon

 

All that was changed there was the line above was added to the explosion data for grenades, so that a player can actually survive less-direct hits against them. 
Ahh, sadly Gfycat links don't embed on GTA Forums anymore. Never mind, you'd have to click that link to see. 

 

But other than that yeah, I think there should be some limitations on things and I was thinking that the B-11 Strikeforce's 30 Homing Missile capacity was "testing the waters" to see how that would work. 
Perhaps there could be ways to replenish that ammo or munitions too without requiring a whole new vehicle or whatever. 

 

Edited by Gaffa
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Personally I think they’re fine how they are for other aerial targets, maybe nerf them against non weaponized ground vehicles… but even then, probably best to just leave stuff be. They have a bad habit of really f*cking stuff up when they mess with it (handling flags).

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It was proposed many times for the explosive cannons on the jets to be replaced with an ultra-high-damage minigun. Basically, it would shred anything you hit, but have no splash damage whatsoever, making it still effective against aircraft but not so much against ground targets. That would have been a much better design.

 

As for homing missiles, that is really the game's biggest issue anymore. It's hard to imagine them doing much about it, but I wish they would. Can think of lots of options:

1. Replace all homing missiles with Buzzard missiles. They just don't need to track better than that and when they do, it wrecks the game.

2. Limit the ammo on all vehicles with homing missiles. More for aircraft, very little for all the mememobiles.

3. Change it back to the way it originally was with lock-on, where homing missiles only lock onto aircraft and not player-controlled ground vehicles. Why this was changed I've never quite understood, and when they added the excessively accurate missiles of vehicles like the Oppressor, the combination was awful.

 

They could do any one of these, or a couple of them, and I would applaud it. The OP nature of jets and the Oppressor Mk II make free roam just unbearable sometimes (unless you adopt a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude about it).

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Posted (edited)

When someone hits me with an orbital cannon (it must have been at least two years ago), I take it as the ultimate compliment that someone would spend that much money just to blow me up. If, on the other hand, someone uses loopholes to dashboard their game and leave the lobby (does that even work now?) then it's honestly their sad life and we're rid of them anyway. It's such a rare occurrence.

 

As far as perpetual griefers in jets are concerned, YES, they should have had their exploding rounds nerfed from the outset. A determined pilot will wreak havoc on public lobbies for hours on end, but again, you should take it as a compliment if someone has to resort to such base tactics to try to dominate you, which is just not worth getting worked up about. Through experience, don't risk too much in heavily populated or aggressive lobbies, but instead observe how people exist in pockets and don't really care that much about what's going on around them, and small details like a bit of cargo or something trundling around the map will largely go unnoticed because, yes, most people do have their own lives.

 

I don't want to defend Rockstar because I know they don't care about me on a personal level or as a long-term player, but they have tried to make freemode more and more diverse so that people have multiple things to do instead of just getting bored and looking for someone to grief, and if you accept that it does happen and that sometimes you lose, you'll not get so frustrated at the game's bias and imbalance in favor of the aggressor.

 

Edited by Jenkiiii
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Posted (edited)

Homing missiles needs to be nerfed accross the board, all of them(save for the Chernobog, Terrorbyte and AA Trailer) needs to be brought down to standard level.

 

Explosive cannons on jets and also on the Savage needs to be removed or switch them both for incendiary rounds, also apply those on the Annihilator and the Stealth Annihilator.

 

Also no weaponized vehicle should have infinite ammo, tanks cannons, helicopters machine guns, LAPVs machine guns, etc...All of them should get limited ammo.

 

And since all of them now have limited ammo, to counterbalance the fact that you could send them to storage and call them back for more ammo: I would give all of them a 3 minutes cooldown after being blown up or returned to storage(also applied to duplicates of the same model of weaponized vehicle that you might own).

 

Orbital canon...I would remove all kinds of refunds and free shots from it, from the moment you accept to pay the 750k the game automatically saves right there and won't give you a refund for backing out.

If you miss your target, you also shouldn't get a refund and another shot with no cooldown, because your target most likely saw through your desperate attempt to kill it and should be rewarded for outplaying you.

 

With no refunds and no second shots, you also put a stop on everyone using the canon without paying by the use of save scumming(save game before the shot, do the shot, disconnect, reconnect, play as normally because the bill hasn't been deduced).

Edited by Pedinhuh
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Super Grunt 281

Have the missiles only follow the target with a red reticle and the tracking system only able detect them around the reticle or right on.

 

Flying vehicles would have to look directly at their target for a short moment to launch a seeking missile.

 

Can you imagine trying to take down a Nightshark constantly changing directions and breaking line of sight ? No chance unless you are a master with free aim missiles.

 

Spoiler

Now repeat until the Nightshark is destroyed.

 

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@Gaffa

I watched this and it was good enough. But I don’t think there should be rag doll animation. If there was a Hydra in VOTL mode or Savage, it could continuously rag doll someone in some kind of animation lock, without being able to do anything.

 

@AUScowboy

I personally don’t think explosive cannons are very fun when it comes to dog fights. Hydra and Lazer having explosive cannons to severely destroy aircraft while Smuggle Run planes mostly have machine guns in comparison. Plus, dog fighting would be more interesting, intense and intimate if it would draw out for longer, rather than explosive blown in one-few shots. Or, it might become boring without explosive cannons. Do people actual enjoy this part, cheesing the explosives?

 

Anyway, thank for replies.

 

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AcidRain7744

The biggest unbalance I see is with sales. Van with crap weapons vs attack plane loaded with explosive cannon, missiles and bombs. If the horde of jets and mk2 see me, my sale is pretty much doomed. How about better weapons on sale vehicles or extending ghost on sales? Mines for example are worthless against some prick in a nightshark, minigun takes forever to blow something up, missiles on mule blow up right in front of me if I'm the slightly pointed downwards, etc. What does rockstar think, I'm going to grind for months/years to get a nightclub running then give up and start buying shark cards? Same with the bunker. The vehicles are decent against the npcs, but worthless against other players.

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SummerFreeze
10 hours ago, U Carmine said:

For example, if jets didn’t have explosive cannons but rather normal machine guns like you see in movies?

Modern jets do have autocannons that fire explosive ammunition. But a High-Explosive Incendiary round has a burst radius of 5 meters so the damage the cannons do in GTA is really exaggerated. More realistic would be if a direct hit kills a player and most vehicles, while stuff gets put on fire within 5 meters of the impact.

 

But then the Savage would need barrage missiles and countermeasures.

  

10 hours ago, U Carmine said:

And if helicopters and planes had limited homing missiles and rockets?

 

Some of them like Savage looks like it carries a rocket pod so more capacity.

 

Let me know what you think.

Helicopters really don't need a nerf until the Oppressor Mk II is nerfed. Right now they could actually use an armor buff.

 

Homing missiles should have damage and blast radius appropriate to their size. A missile as small as the one on the Oppressors should only create a small explosion. Leave the bigger explosions to aircraft that actually carry large warheads.

 

Most importantly: Replace the homing missiles on the P-45 Nokota with barrage missiles and activate the 2 non-firing machine guns!!!

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In my opinion, rather than nerfing the weapons of air vehicles, the best thing would be to provide us with better anti-aircraft weapons because so far what we have seems a joke, on the one hand we have the Chernobog, a vehicle as imposing as useless, because despite being a vehicle capable of shooting down any air vehicle, it is totally useless against a Lazer, Hydra, or any other supersonic aircraft. Then we have the anti-aircraft trailers, the only one that seems really dangerous to me is the one with two Flak cannons, it is devastating against heavily armored vehicles like the Insurgent or even the Phantom Custom, but a slightly adapted pilot could perform evasive maneuvers with hardly any effort, so it still poses no real danger, and well, I don't even bother talking about the Stinger because shooting down a jet with that thing is impossible unless the pilot is 5 years old. Rockstar should definitely focus more on that and provide better anti-aircraft weapons that give absolute terror and take away anyone's desire to get on a damn jet.

 

 

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They lock-on far too fast. That's fine in SP but it needs to be triple the lock-on time in Online.

As someone said above, the lock-on box needs to be much smaller, as it is now you just need to look in their general direction and you have a lock-on

Vehicle missile counts should be true to their look, like the OPII should only have four missiles

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They should all have limited ammo, to around what you’d expect such a vehicle to have. It’s ridiculous that the most powerful weapons in the game have unlimited ammo. Most modern fighter jets only have around 300-500 rounds of ammunition, and around a dozen missiles. 
 

Severely limited ammo, plus making homing missiles have much weaker tracking (no 180° turns in an area the size of a bedroom), and making aircraft much faster (so they’re more difficult to aim with and you have less time to keep the reticle on-target) would make them significantly more balanced.

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As previously mentioned by others, replacing explosive cannons with standard cannons or more powerful ones like the ones seen in GhillieMaster’s rebalance vids would greatly kill off majority of griefing in the game.

 

The same goes for the insanely accurate rockets on vehicles like the broomstick or the Deluxo by giving them the standard lock on rockets.

 

Here’s hoping that either in a future update, or in E&E R* would implement those changes.

 

Quick edit: Giving the Annihilator B11’s explosive cannon(s) would be a good way of making the helicopter more viable and fun to use, and a bit of an off topic but also removing the ability to buy ammo from the interaction menu would be a nice change too, or at least setting a time limit after refilling a specific category of ammo to make good ol’ ammunation great again. For example after refilling your explosives you have to wait 5 minutes before refilling them again, which would give players an incentive to visit ammunation instead of waiting for those 5 minutes.

 

Another balanced change to buying ammo from the interaction menu would be cutting down the amount of ammo you can buy to at least half, or let’s say 5 rockets minimum for the RPG so that there would be less mindless explosive spamming, forcing players to be smart with their ammo. Whilst we’re at it let’s cut down the total ammo you can hold on all weapons to the GTA IV equivalent :kekw:

Edited by SideStunt
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I wouldn't keep those hopes up.

 

The blatant disbalanced gameplay and griefing this game enables drives shark cards sales upwards.

 

I could maybe see them doing a single nerf like cooldowns and removal of insurance charges and bad sports points for all weaponized vehicles, or bringing down every missile to standard level, but all the nerfs and rebalance ideas discussed around here, including my own?

 

They would essentially remove the appeal of spending money in any of the memevehicles, in one hand this would give a much better gameplay experience to everyone, but on the other hand...Greed and money speaks louder.

 

Frankly, for E&E I'm expecting the game to be wildly different from a technical standpoint that goes beyond graphics and frames per second, but will still essentially give players the same experience they have had for years.

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Proposed changes sound ok, even for someone sitting h24 in choppers/jets, however, I find it surrealistic in 2021 to apply realism of ammo capacity to aircrafts(which is completly ok in self) without mentionning sessions are literally filled with broomsticks and meme cars that shoot ultra accurate missiles, not with Savages or Hydra, that time is gone. You're like 5 years late. 

 

Nerf everything ok, but remove entirely meme missiles from the game. 

 

PS: I would still fly Hydra even with non-explosive ammo, or use my Buzzard, meanwhile...I think many would get super mad if their dear broomstick was nerfed to 4 normal missiles lol

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19 minutes ago, Hécate-II said:

I think many would get super mad if their dear broomstick was nerfed to 4 normal missiles lol

Make them suffer :kekw: Now for realsies, the fact that the broomstick has 20 missiles is quite questionable when you think about the Ruiner 2000 which only has 8 rockets…

 

-insert stonks dude meme here- BALANSD GAMPLEY

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Was thinking about this. How do you nerf overpowered vehicles being used for trolling, without making them crap for PvE?

 

What would happen in real life, if (in a very hypothetical scenario), someone stole a military aircraft and started bombing a metropolitan area? Most likely, jets would be scrambled from the nearest air force base with orders to shoot them down.

 

So if someone is terrorising the session on the broomstick/[insert other OP vehicle here] maybe after a couple of kills the game sends AI Lazers after them - 6 star wanted level type thing? If they're given strong enough accuracy (like the terminator AI some of the ground troops have), and they keep coming, it's game over. You could program it as well to be based not just on last actions but how many kills a player had made using a military grade vehicle in recent period. So if someone has got 5 kills in the last hour, if they even get on a broomstick, it's an instant 6 star wanted.

 

R* could set this up to any sensitivity they like, but it could mean you get one or two kills with an OP vehicle before your will effectively be back fighting on foot or from an unarmed vehicle.

 

Such vehicles could still be used in full for specific missions.

 

I think this idea would re-invigorate the use of cars again in the game, and also give a bit more value to unarmed air vehicles.

Edited by Jimbatron
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2 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

So if someone is terrorising the session on the broomstick/[insert other OP vehicle here] maybe after a couple of kills the game sends AI Lazers after them - 6 star wanted level type thing? If they're given strong enough accuracy (like the terminator AI some of the ground troops have), and they keep coming, it's game over.

 

I think this idea would make the game more fun, but sadly I don't see Rockstar doing it at this late date. Personally I've always wished that the Merryweather merc option would send jets after anyone in an aircraft. If they did I'd call mercs on every jet griefer and Mk II troll I could.

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2 hours ago, Nutduster said:

but sadly I don't see Rockstar doing it at this late date. 

 

Agreed. The strategy is not to nerf stuff that is too powerful. It's to bring out ever more powerful stuff to drive more shark card sales.

 

For any avoidance of doubt (think you got this anyway) I was talking idealistically, not out of hope or expectation.

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I came to see if there was a thread about the newswire spotlighting pilots.  I cannot even believe piloting crews still exists.  Good for them.  Some people are amazing at flying jets.  Actually made me want to play again for a minute.  Then I read the counter the mk2 thread and this one.  The answer to the jet problem was added years ago...explosive snipe rounds neutered jets.  But this solution only helped players who were already intelligent enough to use a jet to counter a jet.  So, R* added the deluxo for the braindead people who could not use the jet to save their life or even the explosive sniper rifle.  But alas, even the beginner friendly Deluxo was too big and too and too slow, so what did R* do...answered the call of the mindless update the 360/ps3 crowd (I really hope their support forums still receive these pleas). R* added a vehicle that is so small and so quick that even the lazer cannot reliably hit the player using it.  It killed the game.  The jet was always the great equalizer for these players that would have been in a jet griefing lobbies but for their simple minds.  You want to blow up someones cargo well that player may go get a jet and send you into passive mode.  You want to harass a player driving around the lobby well that player may go and get a jet.  Players would hide in their apartments and sit in passive mode after shooting a high level player.  Now what do they do, they get on their flying bike and go shoot more random people driving around.  And unless you have spent hours of your life trying to figure out some way to counter the flying bike....there is very little a player can do to get revenge aside from getting another flying bike.  There were always a counters to jets, rpgs and normal snipers.  Those days were actually fun because the person in the jet was actually impressive.  If you were not any good with the jet, the player crashed almost immediately.  Now its some smooth brain tilting the controller their stick forward a few times to be any good.  The game is a joke and until the flying bike is nerfed by removing the ability the change missiles from homing to non homing and removing counter measures and taking away the super homing missiles, it will remain a joke.  

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What I suggested would make the use of homing missiles harder on the Oppressor mk II, so hard that explosive machine guns might be used.

 

A combination of red reticle required + tracking only picking up targets around the center of the screen.

 

Imagine the Chernobog if it had the lock on box the size of the reticle but with a shorter lock on time and you get the idea.

 

You get rewarded by a good homing missile if you actually manage to keep your target at the center of the screen long enough.

 

EDIT : I tested it's movement in the editor, a plane just need to fly straight up or down since the Oppressor mk II won't be able to do the same.

 

A sudden stop for a land vehicle would break the lock on process, well any sharp turn would so the Thruster would have an easy time.

Edited by Super Grunt 281
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Ironically what they need to do is make the jets faster, which would make it very hard for pilots to see, track, and shoot ground targets without running into the ground or a building. It's the reason why jets aren't overpowered in Battlefield 4. 

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5 hours ago, CosmicBuffalo said:

Those days were actually fun because the person in the jet was actually impressive.  If you were not any good with the jet, the player crashed almost immediately.  Now its some smooth brain tilting the controller their stick forward a few times to be any good.  The game is a joke and until the flying bike is nerfed by removing the ability the change missiles from homing to non homing and removing counter measures and taking away the super homing missiles, it will remain a joke.  

 

I didn't thought I would say that, but grinding Special Cargo with Savage/Buzzard(solo) and defending against Hydra and Lazer was much more fun than the actual PVP trends. I've so good memories of me and a friend using the Valkyrie and wrecking wannabe jet griefers when doing crates lol 😂

 

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8 hours ago, jerkmymeat said:

Ironically what they need to do is make the jets faster, which would make it very hard for pilots to see, track, and shoot ground targets without running into the ground or a building. It's the reason why jets aren't overpowered in Battlefield 4. 

 

This is not going to have the effect you desire unless they also patch the thermal-in-jets trick. There's also a real danger to that, which is that a very fast jet becomes quite a bit harder to snipe, reducing the effectiveness of the explosive sniper which was clearly added as a jet counter more than anything else.

 

I'm still mainly in favor of just nerfing the cannons. Either make them non-explosive but high damage, or reduce the splash radius of the explosion by a lot. Of course, I've been lobbying for this for literally about six years, so...

Edited by Nutduster
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Jets can fly more slowly with a combination of landing gear out and the slow down occuring by trying to stall the reactor (without actually stalling) .

 

There are people flying through the giant warehouse of Merryweather with some insane technique.

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1 hour ago, Nutduster said:

 

This is not going to have the effect you desire unless they also patch the thermal-in-jets trick. There's also a real danger to that, which is that a very fast jet becomes quite a bit harder to snipe, reducing the effectiveness of the explosive sniper which was clearly added as a jet counter more than anything else.

 

I'm still mainly in favor of just nerfing the cannons. Either make them non-explosive but high damage, or reduce the splash radius of the explosion by a lot. Of course, I've been lobbying for this for literally about six years, so...


Not really? Why would you need to patch that first? The thermal jet isn’t without it’s sacrifices. You can barely see the outlines of buildings as it is. If they make the jets even faster I bet nearly all of them will crash after going for a strafe.

Edited by jerkmymeat
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one simple idea to balance most used planes: 
just give hydra/lazer canon to b11 and b11 canon to hydra/lazer, because b11 canon is useless against ground targets and effective against air vehicles and hydra/lazer canon is effective against both ground/air targets, and change b11 maneuverability/agility/speed to avoid being too op, but knowing rockstar laziness and careless not gonna happen.

Edited by Killerman29
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Spoiler
On 6/17/2021 at 6:57 PM, Jimbatron said:

What would happen in real life, if (in a very hypothetical scenario), someone stole a military aircraft and started bombing a metropolitan area? Most likely, jets would be scrambled from the nearest air force base with orders to shoot them down.

 

So if someone is terrorising the session on the broomstick/[insert other OP vehicle here] maybe after a couple of kills the game sends AI Lazers after them - 6 star wanted level type thing? If they're given strong enough accuracy (like the terminator AI some of the ground troops have), and they keep coming, it's game over. You could program it as well to be based not just on last actions but how many kills a player had made using a military grade vehicle in recent period. So if someone has got 5 kills in the last hour, if they even get on a broomstick, it's an instant 6 star wanted.

 

this is what i've always thought, in a game with all those military vehicles, lawforces needs something to fight them with, like 6 star army with rhinos, hunters and lazers chasing us is what we need

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