What would it take for old school Saints Row games to truly rival GTA for you?

[The Tracker]

7 minutes ago, DownInThePMs said:

A lot of people think 2 has the best driving but it wasn't really enjoyable in my experience other than the gas thing.

 

I think the thing with Mafia 2 driving is that it suits the map desing perfectly, as it was a map where you rarely had to drive at full speed or make crazy turns.

[KingAJ032304]

52 minutes ago, The Tracker said:

 

Unbelievable how to this day the only open world franchise that bothered to add different driving style options is the Mafia series, I think if more studios added something similar to their games, they would have less people complaining about them. Anyway, I'd like to know what's your opinion on the driving in Mafia 2 and 3. 

Mafia seems to have a very different feel to driving than any game I ever played and its hard to describe. Its not realistic, that's for sure but that great. Its like mafia has this oversteer, sorta looks like your going to lose control but you never do and it does what you want, while it also really deaccelerates you when turning. I don’t think it fits Saints Row IMO but it is quite interesting.

[LL Cool L]

strange hypothetical

 

why not just what would you do to improve the saints row franchise 

 

the driving, terrible. the ragdoll is a bit too ragdoll, makes it look overly cartoony, the ememy AI and how they approach a gun fight (they just speed at you, hop out and start blasting, no cover, no tactical movement or realism...back to basics with the storyline and setting, even tho I enjoyed 3 and 4, 1 and 2 were much better

 

I ejnoy both gta and saints row, there is space for both to exist

 

no1 can gta better than rockstar....so take two should focus on being the best saints row

[KingAJ032304]

24 minutes ago, LL Cool L said:

strange hypothetical

 

why not just what would you do to improve the saints row franchise 

 

the driving, terrible. the ragdoll is a bit too ragdoll, makes it look overly cartoony, the ememy AI and how they approach a gun fight (they just speed at you, hop out and start blasting, no cover, no tactical movement or realism...back to basics with the storyline and setting, even tho I enjoyed 3 and 4, 1 and 2 were much better

 

I ejnoy both gta and saints row, there is space for both to exist

 

no1 can gta better than rockstar....so take two should focus on being the best saints row

Oh about the enemy ai, replay SR1 it has the smartest combat ai in the series, even better than GTA (it really is just health regeneration that makes it even possible to survive more than 8 ais armed with rifles and shotguns at a time), its just SR2 having the dumbest drags it down (since SR2 is usuallyreferred to as the definitive Saints Row experience). The enemies when shot will try they're best to move behind a surface, the shotgun ais try to shoot than run to cover to pump out of line of fire then shot again, the ai is constantly trying to move around and flank the player (especially the gang ai), they also move backwards if the player is approaching them and if they see bullets flying to an area, they'll make sure to avoid that line of fire. GTA never really had all that (not to mention enemies and ai in general upgrade their weapons if they see a better weapon on the ground), SR2 almost completely stripped this with ais just standing still shooting you and not even walking backwards if you have a melee weapon coming at them. Also I personally (really is just my opinion) disagree with the ragdolls being overly ott as I think it gives a lot of flavour, as if a game doesn't have Euphoria then the sr1 and 2 methods is the best way to keep interest but that's just my opinion. But after all the comments I never realized how important driving is for you guys and your judgement on the series, tbh its astonishing for me. But the main thing was I wanted to know no matter how improbable it seems, what would make Saints Row the best alternative to GTA and not a great vale 20 dollar 3D universe GTA modding project. Also TakeTwo...?

Edited June 3, 2021 by KingAJ032304

[LL Cool L]

2 minutes ago, KingAJ032304 said:

Oh about the enemy ai, replay SR1 it has the smartest combat ai in the series, even better than GTA (it really is just health regeneration that makes it even possible to survive more than 8 ais armed with rifles and shotguns at a time), its just SR2 having the dumbest drags it down (since SR2 is usuallyreferred to as the definitive Saints Row experience). The enemies when shot will try they're best to move behind a surface, the shotgun ais try to shoot than run to cover to pimp out of line of fire then shot again, the ai is constantly trying to move around and Frank the player (especially the gang ai), they also move backwards if the player is approaching them and can if the see bullet flying to an area,, they'll make sure ti avoids that line of fire.. GTA never really had all that (not to mention enemies upgrade their weapons if they see a better weapon on the ground), SR2 almost completely stripped this with ais just standing still shooting you and not even walking backwards if you have a melee weapon coming at them. Also I personally disagree with the ragdoññ being overly ott as I think it gives a lot of flavour, as if a game doesn't have Euphoria then the sr1 and 2 methods is the best way to keep interest but that's just my opinion. But after all the comments I never realized how important driving is for you guys and your judgement on the series, tbh its astonishing for me. But the main thing was I wanted to know no matter how improbable it seems, what would make Saints Row the best alternative to GTA and not a great vale 20 dollar 3D universe GTA modding project. Also TakeTwo...?

the thing where the enemy picks up a stronger weapon got annoying when my crew would keep picking up rocket launchers lol

 

maybe i need to play sr1 again but the customising and driving and clothing options are too bad for me, but a the time it was ok and its had the best story for sure

 

[KingAJ032304]

13 minutes ago, LL Cool L said:

the thing where the enemy picks up a stronger weapon got annoying when my crew would keep picking up rocket launchers lol

 

Which is weird since Saints Row with the first game had it so enemies don't actually shoot if your too closeup, they'll actually back up if they have an rpg, both the enemy ai with an enemy they see and friendly ai if they don't want to blow them up (another thing gta still doesn’t have), I never had much of a problem but I know to stay out their way effectively.

Edited June 3, 2021 by KingAJ032304

[Ivan1997GTA]

It's quite complicated for me to say what it would take for old Saints Row games to be better than GTA. I mean, both game series are great, in my opinion, and they have their own merits and flaws that make them stand out.

 

Like with the SRTT remaster last year, I hope Volition remakes SR1, since it's the game's 15th anniversary this year (remaking it in a similar way to the Destroy All Humans! remake), especially considering that the original game is an Xbox 360 exclusive. Saints Row 2's my favorite game in the series, but I don't think any of the later games' stories could top the first game's storyline, since its has that gangster culture vibe that no title past SR2 was able to replicate.

 

I know this isn't a "wishlist for a new Saints Row", but if I were to make a new Saints Row game, I would probably have it be an undercover cop story (similar to one of the original concepts of Saints Row: The Third and one of the endings in Gat Out of Hell), set in the West Coast across the U.S.-Mexico border, in a pastiche of San Diego (probably named San Marco) and Tijuana (named Marinejo), with the plot's conflict being focused on street gangs and the Mexican cartel. I think it would be pretty cool to see a Saints Row game focused on Mexican organized crime.

[KingAJ032304]

2 minutes ago, Ivan1997GTA said:

It's quite complicated for me to say what it would take for old Saints Row games to be better than GTA. I mean, both game series are great, in my opinion, and they have their own merits and flaws that make them stand out.

 

Like with the SRTT remaster last year, I hope Volition remakes SR1, since it's the game's 15th anniversary this year (remaking it in a similar way to the Destroy All Humans! remake), especially considering that the original game is an Xbox 360 exclusive. Saints Row 2's my favorite game in the series, but I don't think any of the later games' stories could top the first game's storyline, since its has that gangster culture vibe that no title past SR2 was able to replicate.

 

I know this isn't a "wishlist for a new Saints Row", but if I were to make a new Saints Row game, I would probably have it be an undercover cop story (similar to one of the original concepts of Saints Row: The Third and one of the endings in Gat Out of Hell), set in the West Coast across the U.S.-Mexico border, in a pastiche of San Diego (probably named San Marco) and Tijuana (named Marinejo), with the plot's conflict being focused on street gangs and the Mexican cartel. I think it would be pretty cool to see a Saints Row game focused on Mexican organized crime.

Out of curiosity, is the undercover part essential for the mexican cartel storyline or can it just be like a spiritual successor in coming up in the gang vibe like sr1 and 2? I was thinking exactly what you said along with a brazilian gang specializing in vehicle shipments, and a columbian cartel that rules them all.

[Ivan1997GTA]

4 minutes ago, KingAJ032304 said:

Out of curiosity, is the undercover part essential for the mexican cartel storyline or can it just be like a spiritual successor in coming up in the gang vibe like sr1 and 2?

I think it could be a mix of both. Basically, it would be like being put in the shoes of Troy Bradshaw, who was a member of the 3rd Street Saints and was revealed to be an undercover cop at the end of the first game.

[KingAJ032304]

6 minutes ago, Ivan1997GTA said:

I think it could be a mix of both. Basically, it would be like being put in the shoes of Troy Bradshaw, who was a member of the 3rd Street Saints and was revealed to be an undercover cop at the end of the first game.

And how would side activities go, how would a potential multiplayer be, and how would coop function?

 

Also I realized none of yall really mentioned anything about activities or open world details or atmosphere immersion so ill assume those aspects of the first two games are find with you guys.

Edited June 3, 2021 by KingAJ032304

[sabitsuki]

15 minutes ago, KingAJ032304 said:

columbian cartel

There's manuel orojuela who is basically unused after SR1

[sabitsuki]

Anyway, back on topic.

 

I was playing San Andreas for almost half a day just now and one thing that instantly caught my attention was the sound design.

 

One of the reasons why Rockstar's open worlds feel so lifelike is because of their incredibly detailed ambient background sounds of the city and countryside in their games as well as the way they edit their sound effects. There is nothing more relaxing and human than hearing the sound of car horns, the distant rumble of a plane and the rustle of the wind or thunderstorm once you pop up a save file.

 

 

I never quite got the same feeling in SR1 and 2 (especially in the awful PC port of SR2). They just sounded messy and harsh, for the lack of better words. Engines don't really gradually change pitch, guns sound way too loud, ambient sounds are extremely generic and the radio isn't as well-mixed and mastered as in the GTA games. If they manage to fix this in either a remaster or in a future instalment it would definitely stand a chance at beating GTA.

 

Point is even if your game has the best gameplay ever, if it sounds bad, you can bet it's going to play bad.

 

Also just a gripe but if they brought the ragdoll physics from 3 into 1 and 2 it would definitely improve the experience a lot more since running people over in 3 is really fun.

Edited June 3, 2021 by DownInThePMs

[KingAJ032304]

15 minutes ago, DownInThePMs said:

Anyway, back on topic.

 

I was playing San Andreas for almost half a day just now and one thing that instantly caught my attention was the sound design.

 

One of the reasons why Rockstar's open worlds feel so lifelike is because of their incredibly detailed ambient background sounds of the city and countryside in their games as well as the way they edit their sound effects. There is nothing more relaxing and human than hearing the sound of car horns, the distant rumble of a plane and the rustle of the wind or thunderstorm once you pop up a save file.

 

 

I never quite got the same feeling in SR1 and 2 (especially in the awful PC port of SR2). They just sounded messy and harsh, for the lack of better words. Engines don't really gradually change pitch, guns sound way too loud and ear piercing and the radio isn't as well-mixed and mastered as the GTA games. If they manage to fix this in either a remaster or in a future instalment it would definitely stand a chance at beating GTA.

 

Point is even if your game has the best gameplay ever, if it sounds bad, you can bet it's going to play bad.

 

Also just a gripe but if they brought the ragdoll physics from 3 into 1 and 2 it would definitely improve the experience a lot more since running people over in 3 is really fun.

Jesus that ambience, really never heard of that in gta sa, didn't even think the technology could support it too well. Also on the ragdolls literally every saints row fan I ever met, even the new school fans, said they can't stand sr3+ balloonlike lifeless ragdolls.

[Mister Pink]

6 hours ago, DownInThePMs said:

You've obviously never played the first game. Also there's literally NPCs in San Andreas that look like Will Smith's character in Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

Easy there, princess. I've played all the Saints Rows, or are you referring to the first GTA? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Rather than accuse "obviously" maybe try back that up with something? 

 

Will Smith?  You mean Cuba Gooding Jr, maybe..  based on a film that's based on the real culture in South Central L.A. 

 

 

No gang in the history of all time ever looked like this. Not that it's a real problem, I love things like The Warriors . But,  everyone is ripped, square-jawed shades wearing, baggy-trousers, corny looking meat-heads. At least playing San Andreas I'm looking at this mustard t-shirt wearing guy going.. damn, why does he look familiar? With Saints Row I'm getting corny 00's Hollywood like Vin Diesel or Fast And Furious type characters. 

 

SR1 is probably more palatable that other SR games when it comes to realism portrayals of gangs.. One a side note, I'm not saying SR isn't sun fun or that GTA isn't batsh*t crazy, but overall, GTA leans to more realistic aesthetic. If they don't go for realism their characters are based on important movies of the time. Generally, critically acclaimed films of the genre. 

 

San Andreas, not everyone was a ripped meat head with a Johhny Bravo shaped body. It's like everyone in SR is Brucie Kibbutz on steroids. That's a hump I can't get over. 

[KingAJ032304]

19 minutes ago, Mister Pink said:

Easy there, princess. I've played all the Saints Rows, or are you referring to the first GTA? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Rather than accuse "obviously" maybe try back that up with something? 

 

Will Smith?  You mean Cuba Gooding Jr, maybe..  based on a film that's based on the real culture in South Central L.A. 

 

 

No gang in the history of all time ever looked like this. Not that it's a real problem, I love things like The Warriors . But,  everyone is ripped, square-jawed shades wearing, baggy-trousers, corny looking meat-heads. At least playing San Andreas I'm looking at this mustard t-shirt wearing guy going.. damn, why does he look familiar? With Saints Row I'm getting corny 00's Hollywood like Vin Diesel or Fast And Furious type characters. 

 

SR1 is probably more palatable that other SR games when it comes to realism portrayals of gangs.. One a side note, I'm not saying SR isn't sun fun or that GTA isn't batsh*t crazy, but overall, GTA leans to more realistic aesthetic. If they don't go for realism their characters are based on important movies of the time. Generally, critically acclaimed films of the genre. 

 

San Andreas, not everyone was a ripped meat head with a Johhny Bravo shaped body. It's like everyone in SR is Brucie Kibbutz on steroids. That's a hump I can't get over. 

I don't think thats fair on characters like Dex, Troy, Warren W, The Lopez brothers, Lin, and Tonya. I would say they don't fit what you described. Plus what you said can easily apply to GTA VC. Nothing wrong of course.

[Zello]

1 hour ago, Mister Pink said:

No gang in the history of all time ever looked like this. Not that it's a real problem, I love things like The Warriors . But,  everyone is ripped, square-jawed shades wearing, baggy-trousers, corny looking meat-heads. At least playing San Andreas I'm looking at this mustard t-shirt wearing guy going.. damn, why does he look familiar? With Saints Row I'm getting corny 00's Hollywood like Vin Diesel or Fast And Furious type characters. 

 

SR1 is probably more palatable that other SR games when it comes to realism portrayals of gangs.. One a side note, I'm not saying SR isn't sun fun or that GTA isn't batsh*t crazy, but overall, GTA leans to more realistic aesthetic. If they don't go for realism their characters are based on important movies of the time. Generally, critically acclaimed films of the genre. 

Have you played SR1? They looked more like this

 

 

The baggy clothes actually fit the 2000's fit and ironically look like something from the Wire.

 

 

 

Yes there are some unrealistic looking things like the entire West side rollerz gang in SR1 which fit the description of the Fast and Furious type corny gang. I just cringe everytime I see them or do their missions and Johnny and Lin but otherwise SR1 did have some realistic looking people for the 2000's era.

 

There was also the Ronin in SR2 which were just ugh....

Edited June 3, 2021 by Zello

[B Dawg]

6 hours ago, KingAJ032304 said:

Whats your opinion on character movement and player weight and etc in Saints Row games? 

It's okay, don't really care about that stuff, tho I do prefer games with weight to their movement.

Edited June 3, 2021 by B Dawg

[Zello]

 

Part of the reason Saints Row ended up the way it is was because of the man in charge of writing it. Steve Jaros you can immediately tell that he's into cheesy CW dramas and their bad writing, bad acting, and beautiful people. He's a kid from the suburbs who sat at the nerd table in high school. He's not into the crime movies/shows like the Houser bros are and it reflects in the writing of Saints Row.

 

It's why we got people like Kinzie and not Elizabeta. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Zello

[sabitsuki]

3 hours ago, Zello said:

It's why we got people like Kinzie and not Elizabeta.

Man when he pulled up that slideshow of my little pony it got me shook up as all hell.

Edited June 4, 2021 by DownInThePMs

[LittleBlueTroll]

Personally, I don't need or want Saints Row to rival GTA.

I can enjoy (and have enjoyed) both games for different reasons. They might have similarities, but I never directly compared the two. 

SR does some things better than GTA, and GTA does some things better than SR. I've had a great time with both, and all I need from a game is to enjoy it. 

 

 

[DEADWOODZ]

17 hours ago, KingAJ032304 said:

Jesus that ambience, really never heard of that in gta sa, didn't even think the technology could support it too well. Also on the ragdolls literally every saints row fan I ever met, even the new school fans, said they can't stand sr3+ balloonlike lifeless ragdolls.

The small details they put into SA is crazy. If i remember, you used to be able to hear gun shots in the distance, when you were in the hood.

Edited June 4, 2021 by DEADWOODZ

[KingAJ032304]

1 hour ago, DEADWOODZ said:

The small details they put into SA is crazy. If i remember, you used to be able to hear gun shots in the distance, when you were in the hood.

Yeah but saints row 1 had it too along with dog barking and engine revving

[Zello]

I liked the Vice Kings they kinda reminded me of the BMF out of all the gangs in Saints Row they were the only gang I liked.

 

 

 

 

Both the BMF and Vice Kings ran a record label BMF entertainment and Kingdom come records. Both of them use the record label as fronts to launder money. They also had one signed artist The Vice Kings had Aisha, BMF had Bleu Da Vinci local artists both artists also disappeared a bit when their gangs went down with Aisha faking her death and Bleu Da Vinci serving some time in prison when BMF was taken down by the feds.

 

Warren Williams relationship with Benjamin King is also kinda similar to the rift between the Flenory brothers who ran BMF. Dimitrius was a bit more flashy and ruthless while Terry was less and wanted to avoid attention this led to a falling out between them.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Zello

[Zello]

 

So that explains a lot for Saints Row 1 they hired a bunch of consultants to help them out and get the grounded streets tone right. For the next game I hope they're gonna need all the help they can get to make sure it's not a piece of sh*t 

[sabitsuki]

On 6/15/2021 at 11:49 AM, Zello said:

 

So that explains a lot for Saints Row 1 they hired a bunch of consultants to help them out and get the grounded streets tone right. For the next game I hope they're gonna need all the help they can get to make sure it's not a piece of sh*t 

It paid off really well. 2 in comparison just felt like a white suburban impression of hood culture lmao

Edited June 23, 2021 by DownInThePMs

[Algonquin Assassin]

I have enjoyed both for many different reasons. As much as I love GTA IV I have to admit the SR2 trailer taking potshots at it was pretty hilarious at the time.

 

SR2 was/is my favourite one though. Maybe it hasn't aged quite as good as GTA IV (GTA IV is arguably more robust when it comes to gameplay mechanics), but every now and then when I feel the urge I still play it to mess around. I kinda miss that period in gaming however when it felt like every dev wanted piece of the GTA pie and R* gave out as much as they took. 

 

I'm surprised the first two games haven't been remastered though. The third game was remastered (and this was the point of the series when it started to jump the shark. Sadly). I'd love a remastered collection of the first couple games. 

 

 

[Cutter De Blanc]

Attention to detail. A level of quality on par with what Rockstar brings to the table consistently. 

[Maxxeine]

Maybe it's just me, but I've never played Saints Row for an experience rivaling GTA. It's more to have fun. The closest SR that's come even close to the level of immersion I get in GTA is Saints Row 2, and it happens to be my favorite SR as well. I've never played 1, so I can't comment on it (but I'm planning on getting a 360 copy soon).

 

I also have a bit of a unique history with Saints Row. It was actually my first open world game series - I played SR3 before ever playing a GTA. I remember finding SR3 highly immersive at the time (around 2012 or so), before I eventually played GTA IV for the first time (my first GTA), and then I was absolutely blown away and have never been able to look at Saints Row the same way, especially 3. But that doesn't matter to me. I've never considered them rivals.

 

In short, I don't think I really care about whether GTA does things better than Saints Row, because I play them for different reasons and to me, they're very different games. I think this question would be more suited for open-world games like Sleeping Dogs that actually can compare to GTA in mission structure, open world, gameplay, etc.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Maxxeine

[sabitsuki]

Honestly, all the dumb teen drama sh*t doesn't really bother me, the problem lies in how it creates a snowball effect that eventually affects the entire narrative and lore. I personally call it the GTA V Syndrome, since the satire in that game really overshadows the story there.

 

They've established a somewhat serious gang-based lore in the first three games, if they were to continue the path that was SR4, it would make the series lose its identity. I've never been a fan of the whole "it was all part of a pipe dream" theory that a lot of fans seem to have so the only logical way I can see the series getting back on its feet narratively would be to do a complete reboot.

Edited June 26, 2021 by DownInThePMs

[KingAJ032304]

On 6/25/2021 at 6:29 PM, Cutter De Blanc said:

Attention to detail. A level of quality on par with what Rockstar brings to the table consistently. 

that's hard for any really small triple a companies to do since they can really only spend their budget on making themselves stand out and publishers, investors, and top directors won't allow too much time on details since even if yo udo you lose your identity to probably still not match the quality of the rival but yeah hypothetically that's nice for anyone.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:31 PM, Maxxeine said:

Maybe it's just me, but I've never played Saints Row for an experience rivaling GTA. It's more to have fun. The closest SR that's come even close to the level of immersion I get in GTA is Saints Row 2, and it happens to be my favorite SR as well. I've never played 1, so I can't comment on it (but I'm planning on getting a 360 copy soon).

 

I also have a bit of a unique history with Saints Row. It was actually my first open world game series - I played SR3 before ever playing a GTA. I remember finding SR3 highly immersive at the time (around 2012 or so), before I eventually played GTA IV for the first time (my first GTA), and then I was absolutely blown away and have never been able to look at Saints Row the same way, especially 3. But that doesn't matter to me. I've never considered them rivals.

 

In short, I don't think I really care about whether GTA does things better than Saints Row, because I play them for different reasons and to me, they're very different games. I think this question would be more suited for open-world games like Sleeping Dogs that actually can compare to GTA in mission structure, open world, gameplay, etc.

In terms of immersion I honestly think SR1 is the only one I can call immersive. SR2 has there weird but fitting artificial realism/silly switch that can happen at any moment (and is just artificial in general with the city,  character models, voice lines, expressions, etc.), SR3 lacks way too much detail along with basic things in games and tries a bit to hard to show how silly it is at every moment, and SRIV and GOOH are of course the pure opposite of immersion. On Sleeping Dogs I might make a topic on what Sleeping Dogs, Mafia, and GTA can all learn from each other and differentiate.