GTA 6 Speculation & Discussion [Part 5.69]

[Jabalous]

On 7/24/2021 at 8:25 PM, Len Lfc said:

I think the main issue is that people don't want it to be that. Or at least not so strictly. I myself am like you, in that I like the way Rockstar do things. I often get overwhelmed and a little intimidated when I have too many options and don't have direction. I love the new Hitman games, but at first it was very difficult and frustrating, before I truly learned the game and unlocked more tools.

 

I think people want their games to return to the GTA III style, when you just had an objective and had a lot of freedom to do it how you wanted, without being punished or failing a mission for using the wrong weapon or going too far away, etc. Which, to be fair, I understand and agree.

 

Hitman is....Hitman, it's designed to be that way since its inception. Grand Theft Auto is a completely different genre and it'd be too cumbersome to design missions with many options as Hitman, since you know R*, is keen on adding loads of animations , well-placed cutscenes and dialogue to drive a certain narrative during missions. Sometimes they give options (Choose A, B or C), but again, they follow a certain narrative. Even Hitman eventually does follow a certain narrative. I also don't understand why the III-era games are celebrated for the so-called 'freedom when doing mission'. As far as I remember from my adventures in Vice City and San Andreas, they were no different from the recent R* games when it comes to mission design in that they mostly a single narrative, one way/path to accomplish objectives. What do those players want? To be able to shoot down the plane in V's Caide Libre mission with a different weapon, say using a fighter jet, or without having to follow the narrative of the motorcycle chase? This is, again, an A or B situation, both of which will need to follow a certain narrative to drive the story for it to look cinematic and make sense. GTA III was too basic in its story, variety and type of missions. It was the first experiment that led to what R* wanted to eventually build, that is V and RDR 2.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Jabalous

[Zapper]

@Jabalous I can see Rockstar listening to the criticism of RDR2 and making missions much more Hitman like.

There is a high chance of Cayo Perico being the blueprint of next GTA's mission design. It can be completed in like 10 different ways and the objective is just to loot and escape the island.

Even the new train heist Red Dead Online has a single objective 'Board the Train' and you choose whether to try and do it while it's on the run or try to stop it by putting a wagon on the train track. You can also fully stealth it just like Cayo. Also like Hitman games you overhear conversations and scout out areas to find points of interest which will help you in the task in both of those heists. 

 

Rockstar does listen to criticism even though they don't say it out loud. They certainly did listen when IV was criticized for being too serious and made V much closer to 3D games in terms of tone. 

[Len Lfc]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:52 PM, Jabalous said:

 

Hitman is....Hitman, it's designed to be that way since its inception. Grand Theft Auto is a completely different genre and it'd be too cumbersome to design missions with many options as Hitman, since you know R*, is keen on adding loads of animations , well-placed cutscenes and dialogue to drive a certain narrative during missions. Sometimes they give options (Choose A, B or C), but again, they follow a certain narrative. Even Hitman eventually does follow a certain narrative. I also don't understand why the III-era games are celebrated for the so-called 'freedom when doing mission'. As far as I remember from my adventures in Vice City and San Andreas, they were no different from the recent R* games when it comes to mission design in that they mostly a single narrative, one way/path to accomplish objectives. What do those players want? To be able to shoot down the plane in V's Caide Libre mission with a different weapon, say using a fighter jet, or without having to follow the narrative of the motorcycle chase? This is, again, an A or B situation, both of which will need to follow a certain narrative to drive the story for it to look cinematic and make sense. GTA III was too basic in its story, variety and type of missions. It was the first experiment that led to what R* wanted to eventually build, that is V and RDR 2.

 

I generally agree with you. I just thing the point people are making is a little more subtle. Instead of being forced to do a mission in only one way, they just want a little more freedom on mission. In RDR2 you may have to go to a specific spot, pick up a specific thing, then kill a target in a specific way. People just want the freedom to do it their own way, which is understandable.

 

My only issue is too many 'fail states'. I think they could be a bit better at not having the player fail for doing something they weren't meant to. I haven't replayed RDR2 since I first played in in October/November '18 (Saving a replay for when VI is announced) But there was a lot of criticism for it's linear mission design, which while I didn't completely dislike, I can see why people don't like it.

 

I disagree with your point about Hitman being too cumbersome for GTA, though. I'm not saying their missions should be as open as Hitman. Just that you have a target or objective, and you're free to go about it in any way. And the mission won't fail if you didn't do the exact thing the game tells you to. I know that isn't always possible due to the need for a story to take place. For example Michael can't be allowed to catch the Tennis coach when chasing him, because he needs to reach the house so Michael can destroy it. But it would be nice to have a little more freedom is all.

[BAGS00]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:52 PM, Jabalous said:

What do those players want? To be able to shoot down the plane in V's Caide Libre mission with a different weapon, say using a fighter jet, or without having to follow the narrative of the motorcycle chase? This is, again, an A or B situation, both of which will need to follow a certain narrative to drive the story for it to look cinematic and make sense.

The main objective on that mission is to get a briefcase and kill a dude, this could be done in different ways if they gave the plane and the guy a path to follow beginning with the plane taking off, then you could have the options to shoot the plane down with the sniper, go to the airport before the objective gets in the plane or jump on the plane as it takes off like at the end of tbogt, 3 simple options that could give some variety to the mission and the story would really not be affected at all.

Edited July 24, 2021 by BAGS00

[Len Lfc]

On 7/24/2021 at 8:31 PM, BAGS00 said:

The main objective on that mission is to get a briefcase and kill a dude, this could be done in different ways if they gave the plane and the guy a path to follow beginning with the plane taking off, then you could have the options to shoot the plane down with the sniper, go to the airport before the objective gets in the plane or jump on the plane as it takes off like at the end of tbogt, 3 simple options that could give some variety to the mission and the story would really not be affected at all.

 

Rockstar just like to do it differently though. The mission is intended to have an off-road 'chase'. And it's really cool, I like that mission. The real criticism is that every player has the same experience and its the same every single time. Now of course that's intentional on Rockstar's part. Just as iconic scenes from movies are the same every time (duh), the story is written in a linear fashion. And I'm cool with that. 

 

The best way for me to describe it is that: I just wish each player had more unique experiences on these missions. As much as I do love the linear cinematic missions written by Rockstar. The more open and sandbox ones are always the ones that stand out and are remembered 'better'. Because that wild and crazy thing that might have happened in your game wasn't scripted. And that makes it feel cooler! When Trover jumps the train, when chasing the jet, it's cool. But everyone did that. So it then feels less unique. 

[victm92]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:52 PM, Jabalous said:

 

Hitman is....Hitman, it's designed to be that way since its inception. Grand Theft Auto is a completely different genre and it'd be too cumbersome to design missions with many options as Hitman, since you know R*, is keen on adding loads of animations , well-placed cutscenes and dialogue to drive a certain narrative during missions. Sometimes they give options (Choose A, B or C), but again, they follow a certain narrative. Even Hitman eventually does follow a certain narrative. I also don't understand why the III-era games are celebrated for the so-called 'freedom when doing mission'. As far as I remember from my adventures in Vice City and San Andreas, they were no different from the recent R* games when it comes to mission design in that they mostly a single narrative, one way/path to accomplish objectives. What do those players want? To be able to shoot down the plane in V's Caide Libre mission with a different weapon, say using a fighter jet, or without having to follow the narrative of the motorcycle chase? This is, again, an A or B situation, both of which will need to follow a certain narrative to drive the story for it to look cinematic and make sense. GTA III was too basic in its story, variety and type of missions. It was the first experiment that led to what R* wanted to eventually build, that is V and RDR 2.

Two things:

-You are basically expressing an incredibly conformist way of thinking. Just because those games were that way they should stay like that forever (even though it's pretty obvious that Rockstar would have tried to implement more sophisticated things if they had been able to do so at that time)? And like others said, actually 3D era games offered a bit less linearity in missions than V and RDR2. 
-You don't seem to understand the point of the talk. Basically, GTA stands out and was revolutionary because it is an attempt to replicate or create a world, acting as a complex simulation with dozens of intrincated systems that emulates the ones that rules our own universe and that results in a wide variety of emergent situations often unpredictable and completely new even for the creators, and in a ridiculous and incredibly high number of combinations of outcomes and possible interactions. Basically, it's a working virtual universe with tons of components, pieces and relations between them that somehow exist in the same manner than reality. I'd that's the amazingness of GTA and every other open world that is properly done. Yeah, they also stand out for their more culture-relevant and mature approach of the tone, the topics, the depth and humanity of the characters and other purely narrative aspects, but it's not the core of the game. They even said that it was completely secundary for them while making GTA III and that they didn't think it was going to be important for the audicence until the game came out. And that realistic virtual universe could also exist within missions. Having a story pre-defined doesn't necessarily limit the mechanics. So, try playing some other games like all entries in the Watch Dogs series. Missions are infinitely more open and free than any GTA (specially V and also RDR2) because they ONLY present you a fairly simple objective and it depends on you how you take advantage of the world, their systems and their interactions to get it done. As a result, every mission can be passed in a large amount of ways and within that same ways there are also thousands of possibilities. Literally no playthrough is like other. 
It's like I ask you to get me a cat right now. You could buy it online, bring me yours, stealing your neighbour's cat, going to trap some street cat, going to the forest and capture a wild cat and then domesticate it, etc. Or by pure luck, it could be that some cat comes to you while you were leaving your home and then just followed you to my house. At the end it would be the same: I would have my cat. But possibilities were endless. RDR2 and GTAV are nowhere like that. And I think it wouldn't be the case if it wasn't because it's incredibly more difficult to do so (while preserving the values of the story and level design) than to orchestate every move. In other words, techincal limitations. But there are other that acomplishes that, and while there's still nothing that has that level of complexity to the extent of my cat example, they exist, are far superior and you seem to ignore (or justify by saying that it is'nt Rockstar's goal to achieve it) that fact. 

And yes, Caida Libre should have been finishable in any way as long as that guy is dead and you have the briefcase. Even with a trainer that reduces his health to zero from the distance. But that would be impossible since in the mission there is no universe, there are no systems. The person doesn't even exist until the accident has happened. The plane is just a pre-defined and infinitely resistant rock (and sometimes it's just decorated, a ficticious threatre set that doesn't even exist as a 3D model). In other words, plain and "scripted" (don't like to use that word since technically everything in programming is an script, but you know what I mean) sh*t. 

Shout out to BAGS00 for also saying perfectly this while I was writing something in the same lines (same to Len). 

 

On 7/24/2021 at 2:31 PM, BAGS00 said:

The main objective on that mission is to get a briefcase and kill a dude, this could be done in different ways if they gave the plane and the guy a path to follow beginning with the plane taking off, then you could have the options to shoot the plane down with the sniper, go to the airport before the objective gets in the plane or jump on the plane as it takes off like at the end of tbogt, 3 simple options that could give some variety to the mission and you the story would really not be affected at all.

 

[Jabalous]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:44 PM, RenegadeAngel said:

I wish more games, including GTA VI, could just blatantly rip off MGS V. There hasn't been a non-RPG sandbox with a better game design for a long while. It does so many f*cking things right.

 

Funny enough, MGSV is universally regarded as the mainline Metal Gear Solid game with the least amount of story/cinematic content that the series was always known for. It felt/tasted like an alien/different game than its predecessors. The mission structure is repetitive with barely any story, cinematics driving it.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Jabalous

[Zapper]

On 7/25/2021 at 1:01 AM, BAGS00 said:

The main objective on that mission is to get a briefcase and kill a dude, this could be done in different ways if they gave the plane and the guy a path to follow beginning with the plane taking off, then you could have the options to shoot the plane down with the sniper, go to the airport before the objective gets in the plane or jump on the plane as it takes off like at the end of tbogt, 3 simple options that could give some variety to the mission and the story would really not be affected at all.

 

On 7/25/2021 at 1:39 AM, victm92 said:

Two things ... same lines (same to Len). 

What you two are saying would be an ideal situation with every mission having 3-4 unique ways to complete it. It's be an amazing achievement to pull that off. Problem is if 100 missions has to be like this it's 3-4 times the work to get it down. Even Hitman games only a few locations which you play over and over again to find different ways to complete it. On the flipside there is Ubisoft mission design where every mission feels extremely repetitive due to them just boiling down to stealth or balls out combat where on paper they should feel different. All AC, Watch Dogs, Far Cry (games that came after 3) games are criticized for this. Mafia 3 got criticized badly for not having more choreographed scenes despite it having a strong script whereas Mafia 2 did the opposite by making the open world a giant set for the missions which was also criticized.

 

Rockstar is closer to Mafia 2 in that aspect but they're better at making missions feel very different with carefully placed cutscenes, banter between characters, even by adding mechanics for a single mission which they won't use in any other mission or free roam. That in term makes the experience very cinematic and but everyone essentially plays the same game in the main missions. They compensate this with a world class best in the industry open world where you're free to do the dicking around without having to worry about the checklist style that plagues vast majority of these kind of games. Everything is essentially handcrafted. Their games also have better moment to moment dialogue than most games which sells the whole game.

 

It's hard to say how Rockstar will go forward in future but I strongly believe Cayo Perico will be the template of GTA's mission design.

[kailomonkey]

What y'all arguing about? Games/missions can be open or scripted in particular balance for whatever experience they're going for. It's not right or wrong it's a trade-off each with its own benefits.

[Fail_At_GTA]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:05 PM, kailomonkey said:

What y'all arguing about? Games/missions can be open or scripted in particular balance for whatever experience they're going for. It's not right or wrong it's a trade-off each with its own benefits.

It doesnt look like arguing to me, but it does look like a comparison of apples and oranges.

[ChengizVlad09]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:02 PM, Jabalous said:

@ChengizVlad09

 

Grand Theft Auto, or any R* game, has never been about challenging players or giving them freedom in finishing missions outside of the pre-written, controlled narrative. Their games are basically focused on making believable, convincing open-world environments visually, acoustically and behaviorally, and using it as a medium to tell a mainline and a bunch of sideline stories that are mostly a satirical version of real-life events, characters and pop culture. It's a working, successful formula and there's no point in changing it. I personally like it.

 

Maybe you can suggest what can be done better.

 

Wholeheartedly, fam.

 

But first, let me get clear about one thing though. In short, I'm not talking about brainiac, puzzle-solving experience, when talking about " providing challenge ". GTA shouldn't be driving simulation, nor it should ever be anything that even closely resembles a competitive shooter.

 

Secondly, the things you have so neatly and precisely described; " Their games are basically focused on making believable, convincing open-world environments visually, acoustically and behaviorally, and using it as a medium to tell a mainline and a bunch of sideline stories that are mostly a satirical version of real-life events, characters and pop culture. " holds nothing but truth, while at the same time being unequivocally franchise defining and widely recognizable. It is especially true for the " action-adventure " part of the GTA franchise, but, as such it is being shown only through one aspect and one aspect only: scripted and narrated missions and scenarios.

 

What's so mind boggling is the fact that GTA is an " OPEN WORLD " action-adventure video game, that is almost nothing without it. If you perhaps wonder what is more important inside this duality, this split nature, just ask yourself, with what exact part could the franchise do without? My money is on heavily scripted part. I'm not saying that part is bad, or it's wrong somehow, I'm claiming it was always the supporting part, not the main star of the show, whereas the title belonged to the open world, free-roam gameplay with all the systems, mechanics and game modes that were present there. Take away the open world, or at least belittle it, and you have a game striving to be a linear video gaming experience, which could be a masterpiece, but a linear video gaming experience nonetheless.

 

With all that out of the way and in accordance with the thread, let me share just some of the ideas that have been rolling around my mind. But, before I do - I can sense some eyebrows being raised and eyes being rolled, already, lol - let me tell you what GTA is to me, since everyone jumps so quickly to suggest playing some other games.

 

I don't know did you know, but during the creation of the franchise, while still being called " Race'n'Chase ", cops ramming the player's car was actually a bug, the thing that has never supposed to happen. To this day, it remains probably the greatest bug that the gaming industry has ever witnessed and probably the egg from which the idea of the open world hatched, since the creators decided to stick with it and change the general formula because of it. It is so wild, so primordial, so f%cking free. AI ' having mind of its own ', doing things seemingly by itself. After that came another great thing. " Respect " system in GTA2. The game now literally had a defined mind of its own. Primitive by todays standards, sure, but still, a smart and interactive thing, that screams " living and breathing " more than every single, fake, pedestrian line in GTA V which was part of the free-roam, open world gameplay, which reacted to our actions. Then came the ruthless enemy AI of the 3D era. Everything there wants to flatten you, waste you, erase you and its doing it in style. No horse$hit auto-aim, idiotic hiding behind cover, just 4 good ol' FBI agents closing doors behind them and opening hell's fire upon thee. And there's 3 or 4 cars. Bullets flying everywhere. Police/FBI/Army chases in 3D era are definitely the most adrenaline inducing activity that's matched by nothing afterwards. Ironically, the most awesome part is that we have no clue where the hell are they spawning from, which creates genuine moment of surprise when we found ourselves rammed by few cars coming out of nowhere. No gimicky radars to show us where everyone is, just good old, all around chaos.

 

Now, what open world gameplay these days needs is more of the same but smarter. Everything is 'smart' these days, but rarely anything has a chance to be chaotic at the same time. Imagine if you simply wanted to engage in some game mode, a la " Gang Wars " in GTA SA. It's cool that police AI is ruthless, but you want dance floor for yourself and your gang friends exclusively. Imagine if the game would recognize that. We wouldn't receive a wanted star, if for example, they attacked us first. They would maybe besieged the fighting zone, but wouldn't interrupt our little party - let the a-holes fight. What if, after all-out-war, we would need to 'clear' the police forces surrounding us, but only those that are currently there and only after would we receive one or two wanted stars.

 

What if the police AI would react differently to our actions and not so linearly, like nowadays. For example; if we fight them with melee weapons or simply fight them in hand to hand combat we would never receive more than 2 stars and they would never engage in using firearms against us. There would be dozens upon dozens of them trying to tackle us, beat the crap out of us, flatten us with their vehicles, but never exactly engage full force? Those seems like nice free-roam activities, not those boring, grindy and repeating fetch quest.

 

What if (many of the) gangs would behave similarly. " Pull a gun on us, we'll blast your a$$, but if you want the good old hand to hand combat, we respect that ". What if the game could recognize that we used guns, when the other gang tried to engage in to a brawl and accordingly called us ' pussies ' for it, degrade our respect or punished us in some similar fashion? You know, something meaningful, something that clearly has action and reaction behind it, not that stupid-a$$ howdying around for nothing, a la RDR2.

 

What if we could really resolve our differences with rival gangs, foes and similar scum, with just a couple of 'RPG' Fallout-alike options while free-roaming? You know, that plain with couple of textual options, good, bad or neutral and let the world reacts back. Again, I just remembered my disappointment during my venture with RDR2; so much pointless 'conversations' with peds around that have no meaning at all and lead to nowhere, but as soon as I really needed that moment, that option to converse - I hit someone ridding a horse, while on auto-pilot, since my thumb started falling of from all the tapping - the game didn't prompt me with any option whatsoever and that guy immediately took offense and started shooting. Then I killed him which followed by an unnecessary, grindy-ass chase, after which I paid the bounty for killing them all. In the middle of nowhere. What a lame f$cking concept; here, have this RPG bs, but not when you need it, only when we think it's suitable. For the sake of appearances. F. That.

 

Here's another. What if we could lose heat by entering a specific type of vehicles if they spaw nearby, while we are on the run. You know all those old cars that seemingly serve no purpose other than looking ugly. I always had a huge crush on them. What if we could sneak in one undetected, put a gun to a driver's seat and instruct them to drive carefully? Or even better, if we could get in one by ourselves alone, we would need to obey traffic laws and act natural for the next minut or two while the search is active? Or depending on our wanted level, we could not even use this method. Hell, just for the fun of it, we would need to drive like 'normal' peps for once. Don't know, maybe the youngsters could learn a trafgic law or two, while at it.

 

Or, since many of you find that " honor " trash of RDR2 so 'delicate' and masterpiece alike, here's a trashy one for ya. What if helping the homeless would help us eventually? If we are being chased by the police they would hide us in form of giving us their clothes, or simply throwing sh*tty papers and bunch of carboard boxes over us? If we don't help when they get molested by gangs or other fine peds, they simply don't give a crap about the player then. Even worse, if we are being molesters, not only do they rat us out, but even gang upon us as well. The beautiful thing about it - game is telling us $hit about it. No stupid instructions on it, no obvious pointers or condiscending text, just a couple of subtle hints, that's all.

Just a couple of things I could remember.

 

Anyway, we should be exploring the open world, getting familiar with it, finding out what causes what. The creators should re-invent it, again and again. The open world and the gameplay inside it - the free-roam gameplay - shouldn't be a [email protected] playground or a polygon made to serve the purposes of the scripted missions and cinematic narrative, it should always be other way around, especially when that narrative and cinematics are (almost) flawless, like in the case of R* Games. Especially then.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by ChengizVlad09

[Kris194]

On 7/24/2021 at 9:28 PM, Len Lfc said:

My only issue is too many 'fail states'. I think they could be a bit better at not having the player fail for doing something they weren't meant to.

I feel the same, I love RDRII but having fail me for just trying to be a little bit creative even where it seemed very logical feels just wrong. I'm talking about this moment for example

 

 

What I tried to do is find the way around the train and guess what, mission failed...

 

  

On 7/24/2021 at 7:16 PM, VikingIsAWarrior said:

Also, the reason why I say this is because the new GTA online update and GTA E&E. I think R* rewrote some of the code/implemented more streamline measures so that they can implement more DLCs without the game totally crashing under the amount of data that is running. 

 

It's really not that far from it on PS4, look at that amazing framerate

Edited July 25, 2021 by Kris194

[_MK_]

Man i swear I'm this close to reinstalling RDR2, the more i see people posting about RDR2 the more i want to replay that game, what a masterpiece.

Edited July 25, 2021 by _MK_

[Rats92X]

I think we get Grand Theft Auto Five 2 - Rockstar brings a nice freaky future scenario with Opressor Mk 5 and with the Supressor 3 customizable bicycle. And expanded and dehanced los santos 

[Middle Class Roadman]

On 7/25/2021 at 8:12 AM, _MK_ said:

Man i swear I'm this close to reinstalling RDR2, the more i see people posting about RDR2 the more i want to replay that game, what a masterpiece.

 

Yeah I just started another play through myself. 

[Len Lfc]

On 7/24/2021 at 9:13 PM, Jabalous said:

Funny enough, MGSV is universally regarded as the mainline Metal Gear Solid game with the least amount of story/cinematic content that the series was always known for.

That's not at the expense of the gameplay freedom, though. It was mostly likely in response to MGS4, as that game had cutscenes that literally lasted hours. It still holds the record for the longest cutscene in a game at 71 minutes. Death Stranding still has the gameplay freedom that MGSV had, but is also extremely cinematic.

 

Tl;Dr: People are fine with linear stories, they just don't want their hand held constantly, and forced to play in only one way.

[Dr. Ugs]

Who else wants less mission "freedom" like in Hitman and more straight line story like in Max Payne?

I don't want to build the story myself. I want the game to play like a nice movie where I don't need to think about every step I take but just relax and enjoy it.

[Wolverine78]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:14 AM, AntonGandonBF3 said:

Who else wants less mission "freedom" like in Hitman and more straight line story like in Max Payne?

I don't want to build the story myself. I want the game to play like a nice movie where I don't need to think about every step I take but just relax and enjoy it.

 

You described a movie there , not a videogame. Even if the main arch of the story will always be more or less the same you need to feel some involvement on how you get there , you need to feel like you had at least slightly a different journey from how your friend went about to get the result , a more personal experience, the more possible journeys that lead to that final solution the better. Cayo Perico heist is a good example of more freedom and it has been very well received by the players.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Wolverine78

[Middle Class Roadman]

On 7/25/2021 at 10:14 AM, AntonGandonBF3 said:

Who else wants less mission "freedom" like in Hitman and more straight line story like in Max Payne?

I don't want to build the story myself. I want the game to play like a nice movie where I don't need to think about every step I take but just relax and enjoy it.

 

Me personally I don't mind it this way - with regards to story missions anyway, most single player player games these days play out like this now anyway. I see a lot of people complaining abut the mission design of RDR2 and GTA V but for me the missions in both games were fun, exciting and engaging when playing them - thats the main thing that matters to me.

 

I get people wanting options but for me it's not a deal breaker at all - I feel in open world games you always have the option to go about things how you want in free roam - kinda like homestead robberies in RDR2. Outside of the scripted home invasions you do with fellow gang members you can rob any homestead on the map - I'll choose a homestead, scope with binoculars for any ranch hands/dogs, observe their route, pick a spot to ambush and hogtie them, dump them in the property and then proceed to ransack their place dry - I can then execute them or just leave them tied up as I make my escape. None of that is something the game has told me to do but it works to reaffirm that I'm playing an open world game where I can do what I what, when I want so I'm not too fussed about scripted story missions as I still have the option to play creatively outside of them.  

 

The only thing I don't like is having specific weapons forced on me by Rockstar when I've chosen specific weapons to do missions with - that makes no sense at all. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Orbea Occam

[Rajder]

There are a lot more things to change in Rockstar's open world games than a linear mission design guys

[Kris194]

For me it's 2001 again, there was a huge, really huge advancement in technology and Rockstar has a chance to reinvent this series once again but this time they have something they didn't have back then, 20 years of experience.

 

[Kerminator369]

On 7/24/2021 at 5:40 AM, Jezus Holy Christ said:

 

Maybe it's because of the setting or plot points or things like that. It's probably a stretch but I think Covid can have the effect 9/11 had on III.

..delaying it a few weeks?

On 7/25/2021 at 5:14 AM, AntonGandonBF3 said:

Who else wants less mission "freedom" like in Hitman and more straight line story like in Max Payne?

I don't want to build the story myself. I want the game to play like a nice movie where I don't need to think about every step I take but just relax and enjoy it.

Gta5 is available. Mostly scouting the port. The best dock working documentary. 
 

and so is Red Dead 2 

 

ww haven’t had creative freedom in a rockstar campaign in too long. Let us have our turn 

[TheSantader25]

I think Balance is the most important thing in mission design. If you literally give the player full freedom like the new Hitman games or Ubisoft games for every single mission, the player eventually gets bored and the missions get really forgettable. 

 

At the same time RDR2 and GTA V are way too restrictive as well and while it has made the missions very action packed and engaging, it really sucks when you play them the second time and can't do ONE creative thing differently than the way the game tells you so.

 

The solution is mixing the two formulas for different missions accordingly.

[Kerminator369]

On 7/25/2021 at 9:09 AM, TheSantader25 said:

At the same time RDR2 and GTA V are way too restrictive as well and while it has made the missions very action packed and engaging,

Nothing says engaging like driving halfway across the map in a car or horse listening to 2 characters talk about bullsh*t then shooting 2 guys and riding back. 

 

On 7/25/2021 at 9:09 AM, TheSantader25 said:

the player eventually gets bored and the missions get really forgettable. 

The player gets “bored” with freedom? Isn’t that entirely up to how well the mission is actually designed? I don’t see players getting bored with games like Minecraft, Skyrim or any other Bethesda games, or the old school GTA games which are still played and enjoyed to this day. It all depends on how well crafted a mission is. Poor mission design to me is stifling player control and creativity and confining them to play the game without thinking. It’s like one of those on rail shooters in an arcade but 35 hours long. 

On 7/24/2021 at 2:12 PM, Len Lfc said:

Where is @Dee? 

Stop getting banned, dude.

Damn looking at his last few posts that guy was banned for such a dumb ass reason 

Edited July 25, 2021 by RighteousMind369

[Jabalous]

On 7/25/2021 at 2:52 PM, Kris194 said:

For me it's 2001 again, there was a huge, really huge advancement in technology and Rockstar has a chance to reinvent this series once again but this time they have something they didn't have back then, 20 years of experience.

 

 

20 years of proven experience means that they will stick to what's proven. There's no room for reinvention and experimentation as they did have between 2000-2008 given how time- and money-consuming their games have become to produce.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Jabalous

[TheSantader25]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:46 PM, RighteousMind369 said:

Nothing says engaging like driving halfway across the map in a car or horse listening to 2 characters talk about bullsh*t then shooting 2 guys and riding back. 

 

The player gets “bored” with freedom? reason 

Yes they do. GTA IV is a prime example here for me. Sure you have freedom but the missions all become so similar and unoriginal in the long run that make me bored. It's the same with the newer Hitman games for me as well. You can have a million ways to do them but when they all sort of blend in together it doesn't matter and you have no desire to play them again because they're so unoriginal. Like I said Balance is needed. Otherwise all the missions will look the same.

Edited July 25, 2021 by TheSantader25

[Schwartzxz]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:14 AM, AntonGandonBF3 said:

Who else wants less mission "freedom" like in Hitman and more straight line story like in Max Payne?

I don't want to build the story myself. I want the game to play like a nice movie where I don't need to think about every step I take but just relax and enjoy it.

just watch a movie then

[Len Lfc]

On 7/25/2021 at 2:50 PM, TheSantader25 said:

It's the same with the newer Hitman games for me as well. You can have a million ways to do them but when they all sort of blend in together it doesn't matter and you have no desire to play them again because they're so unoriginal

I have to completely disagree, there. No game is going to be perfect and have unlimited options and be 100% original, whatever that even means these days.

 

Hitman is great. It's still linear, with a linear story and narrative. it's just lets you play each level the way you want, without being forced to follow waypoint or objectives. that was my only point and reason for using Hitman as an example. Rockstar are never going to make missions like Hitman. The point was moreso about not forcing a player to play a mission in the way Rockstar want you to.

[Kerminator369]

On 7/25/2021 at 9:50 AM, TheSantader25 said:

Yes they do. GTA IV is a prime example here for me. Sure you have freedom but the missions all become so similar and unoriginal in the long run that make me bored. It's the same with the newer Hitman games for me as well. You can have a million ways to do them but when they all sort of blend in together it doesn't matter and you have no desire to play them again because they're so unoriginal. Like I said Balance is needed. Otherwise all the missions will look the same.

Way to choose the worst example of what I’m talking about. IMO GTA4s mission structure has the worst parts of linearity and freedom. Probably it’s best mission IMO is the mission with the hotel where you can approach it differently and it changes the flow of the mission. There’s still a lot of driving from point a to b to do something that lasts a few seconds and tailing missions. I meant the 3D gta games. 
 

so my point still stands, it’s still up purely to mission design. And like I said, that’s simply not true. Every mission could be open and free and still stand apart from eachother depending on how they’re designed. 
 

also, it’s kinda sad how a “linear” game like The last of us 2 has more open ended missions than an open world game created by the alleged “king of open world games”. I don’t see any complaints talking about how those missions are boring and all the same. It’s all in your head dude. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by RighteousMind369

[TheSantader25]

On 7/25/2021 at 6:45 PM, Len Lfc said:

I have to completely disagree, there. No game is going to be perfect and have unlimited options and be 100% original, whatever that even means these days.

 

Hitman is great. It's still linear, with a linear story and narrative. it's just lets you play each level the way you want, without being forced to follow waypoint or objectives. that was my only point and reason for using Hitman as an example. Rockstar are never going to make missions like Hitman. The point was moreso about not forcing a player to play a mission in the way Rockstar want you to.

I was just trying to make my own point using Hitman and especially Ubisoft games(since they're open world they are better examples than Hitman) as an example. I'm just trying to state my opinion here. I really don't like the way the new Hitman games are. I loved both Blood Money and Absolution despite them being very different games.

 

But there is just something off about the newer ones and I think it's the lack of originality and freshness in the missions. Blood Money was a very open game as well but I still liked the fact that it was a very focused game despite being full of freedom. There was a sense of focus and purpose in the missions.

 

And that's the point I'm trying to make. You NEED both linear segments and open segments together to make an amazing experience. If you stray too far down either path the game suffers. 

 

I'll rest my case here. But if anybody really thinks Rockstar should go back to GTA IV or Ubisoft style of missions that's ok as well. But I know for sure that's not I'm personally looking for. I want a balanced mission design.