Deleted

[Black-Dragon96]

5 hours ago, Nutduster said:

But they are right and you're not. It is unfortunately as simple as that.

Except its not.

I mean I could just as easily claim its a racing game because you drive/fly around vehicles, are able to customize said vehicles, do all kinds of races with them and so on.

Or I could claim its some kind of second life roleplay game.

You can buy and sometimes customize propertys. You can start up bussinesses and use them to make money. You can customize your character with all kinds of clothes that you buy from the money you earned.

 

Its none of that. Its a mix of all of them. You simply cant fit it into just one genre.

 

5 hours ago, Nutduster said:

It's the other guy's, every single time. So really, all of the above points I mentioned pale in comparison to something that has been true since launch day: it is a PvP game if the other guy chooses for it to be.

This actually further supports that it is not a PvP game but gets turned into one by toxic degenerates.

The design of gta online really does not matter. If 29 people agree that they leave each other alone and all just do their cargo / help eachother, the message (go there blow that guys cargo up) can flash up until it grows a beard. Nothing happens, they game just coninues as normal.

 

All it needs to suddenly become a "PvP game" is one toxic Timmy.

And thats really not enough to call it a PvP game imo. Yeah the design allows it that PvP takes place, it even encourages it to some degree but it just as much allows and encourages Coop gameplay.

[Nutduster]

11 hours ago, Yellow Dog with Cone said:

Most griefers in GTAO are technically playing by the rules, but that doesn't mean that what they do isn't griefing, but actually the opposite, they're griefing indeed. Griefing isn't defined about abuse of game mechanics, but rather about the intent of turning the playing experience of others as unpleasant as possible.

 

 

I'm not really interested in quibbling over lingo here. The only reason I bothered debating this at all is that people like you want to call everyone griefers in a way that insinuates that they are violating some unspoken code of the game. When in fact they are operating well within its code, and it just pisses you off that the code is the way it is. If you want to call them griefers but concede that essentially this game is ABOUT griefing, and that is the experience Rockstar intends for you to have, then I can agree with you. Just don't try to have it both ways at once.

[Nutduster]

8 hours ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

This actually further supports that it is not a PvP game but gets turned into one by toxic degenerates.

 

 

It doesn't, sorry. It's a PvP game as long as PvP is allowed, scored and/or rewarded (this game does both), and not punished (this game seldom punishes it, except in the arbitrary case of personal vehicles being destroyed, and even for that exceptions are made). The fact that it doesn't HAVE to be a hostile environment, on the right day with the right lobby full of peaceful players, is not meaningful. Technically I could get that experience in any shooter game. A lobby of Halo or CoD or whatever else players could all agree to stop killing each other and just do weird glitches or break the map boundaries--I've been in such sessions in both of those franchises. It doesn't change the nature of those games though. And the fact that GTA offers lots of PvE or not-inherently-PvP activities doesn't mean that it's not at core a PvP experience. Because the simple fact is, "PvP optional" means the other guy always has the option, which means it's always on the table, which means you are relying on simple good-will gentleman's agreements to not get nuked.

 

And as a player for almost 8 years of this game, I can only say... good luck with that! I can't even get my friends, guys in my own crew, to not kill me in free roam for ten straight minutes. It's just too inviting to do it. That's the game we all signed up for, and no matter how fun the other activities are, that right there is the backbone, so long as you're in free roam.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Nutduster

[Nutduster]

Another point--the reason I say free roam is PvP at root is that of all the activities and play styles GTA makes possible, PvP fighting is the ONLY one that intrudes on all the others. If I choose to be peaceful and have a car meet, fly a blimp, explore the oceans in a sub or wetsuit, do VIP jobs with friends, etc. etc.--none of that stops anyone else in the session from doing exactly what they want. But PvP is inherently intrusive. A person killing you when you don't want to be killed, no matter what you are doing, disrupts your chosen play style and activity.

 

And I know you're going to say "that's because they're toxic!!1"  Well, sure. I never said they weren't. But again, this game was hand-crafted for toxicity. They knew it would be like this, and even if they somehow naively didn't, they definitely learned within a matter of weeks after launch. And they never fixed it--instead they ran the other way, adding all kinds of military tech for the tryhards and trolls, and for the peaceful players adding... what, exactly? Business missions you are forced to do in public free roam where you become a target? Expensive cars you want to show off in sessions full of people who want to blow them up? They made you bait for shark card-buying kiddies with rage problems. That is a design choice that I find unforgivable. I don't LIKE all those raging assholes either, but at least they're playing a game that wants them to do exactly what they're doing. Better here than in Minecraft, lobbing dynamite.

[HamwithCheese]

3 minutes ago, Nutduster said:

That's the game we all signed up for, and no matter how fun the other activities are, that right there is the backbone, so long as you're in free roam.

I usually agree with you on many things but Idk about all this. 

[Nutduster]

11 minutes ago, HamwithCheese said:

I usually agree with you on many things but Idk about all this. 

 

I'm not always sure I agree with myself on this.    I just sometimes feel like, if a developer is going to make "Be an Asshole: The Game," why would anyone else play the game and then complain about people being assholes? It makes no sense.

 

And the thing is, you CAN have an asshole-free experience. Especially nowadays. You can grind your way to Kosatka money with contact missions and whatever non-kill-each-other jobs are double or triple money each week. Then you can do the island heist (and the casino, as well) entirely in invite-only and instanced private sessions. There is NO NEED anymore to venture into public free roam, ever. Unless of course you want to experience all of the content. But my position is that some of that content was intentionally locked by its creators to a part of the game we all know to be a flaming hellscape. If you're going to play it anyway, you are--IMO--accepting certain terms and conditions, including this most important one: that people are sometimes going to try to kill you, probably just to piss you off, and that is an intended part of the game and they are very much the catered-to party in this instance.

 

Now if you want an example of genuine griefing in this game, I think it's things like people driving the wrong way in races, or parking across chokepoints. Or doing a contact mission, picking up the objective, and running around with it so people can't complete the mission. On paper, the reason for doing either of these is probably the same as that asshole blowing up your sale in free roam: to piss you off. No argument there. But, the race trolls and contact mission trolls are violating the intended spirit of the activity. That is the key difference. In free roam, the intended spirit is "do what you want," and with business missions specifically they go out of their way to encourage people to kill you and blow up your stuff. It's clearly framed in an entirely different way.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Nutduster

[Super Grunt 281]

Not really different than the adventure mode in Sea of Thieves or even freemode in GTA IV (I believe the description hinted at PvP) but it's a lot harder to avoid players in GTA Online than SoT.

 

But complaining about agressive players in freemode, legit but should be expected and considered.

[HamwithCheese]

6 minutes ago, Nutduster said:

There is NO NEED anymore to venture into public free roam, ever.

There's the whole social aspect of the game tho. Just meeting up with strangers. Can't have a car meet in public sessions, unless we all sit in our cars in passive. And even in passive, there are ways to grief players in passive.

 

I get where you're coming from but asking for a little respect, and condemning those that don't, there's valid reasoning for that.

[Nutduster]

Just now, HamwithCheese said:

There's the whole social aspect of the game tho. Just meeting up with strangers. Can't have a car meet in public sessions, unless we all sit in our cars in passive. And even in passive, there are ways to grief players in passive.

 

I get where you're coming from but asking for a little respect, and condemning those that don't, there's valid reasoning for that.

 

There is. But we all know that video game players, at least a significant minority of them, are not respectful at all. They are, to use the same word we all keep using, toxic. Most other games I've ever played try to defend against toxicity; GTA Online welcomes it with open arms. That is why I view this game (or at least, public free roam and all the activities therein) differently from about any other game I've ever played.

 

And I agree too that the social aspect of the game is a large part of it, which is why I find the design so insidious and offensive. Rockstar only needed to do two simple things to make this game about 500% better:

1. Include friendly lobbies where players literally cannot kill each other, and

2. Unlock ALL free roam content so it can be played in any lobby type (PvP/public, friendly/public, invite only), tweaking some of it as needed to present additional challenges in non-PvP sessions.

 

Imagine that game. Imagine the paradise of car meets and socializing and helping each other fight the cops and racing unarmed planes and all of that. Imagine how cool, how very NOT toxic, that would be. Imagine having to CHOOSE to go into a kill-people lobby before someone is able to kill you. That right there--the absence of this OBVIOUS feature the game should have had almost 8 years ago--is why I blame Rockstar more than the players. We ALL KNOW that they f*cked up, that they encouraged the problem rather than addressing it, and we all keep playing anyway.

[HamwithCheese]

Yeah, I really signed up for the game in that trailer. 

[Nutduster]

Just now, HamwithCheese said:

Yeah, I really signed up for the game in that trailer. 

 

Me too, man. And you know, on the right day I get something like that game. It can be a really fun, awesome game in the right lobby. Unfortunately... well, you know! I can't even complain too much because I LIKE PvP games. I do heist preps in public specifically to include some additional risk, to possibly bait people into coming after me. But there are many days that I'd just rather not, and for too much of the content (including socializing with strangers), it becomes unavailable to me if I stay in invite only. More than anything, I feel bad for players who never want PvP, who just want to hang out and grind and stuff. They are being cheated and to some extent even misled by this game, that implies they can have that experience, but forces them to mingle with bullies repeatedly along the way.

[Super Grunt 281]

Maybe one day but I don't believe too much in that.

 

Even if you tried to be helpful, players might be scared and attack. I swear if it was PvP free you could park a personal Titan with the back open so any random driving nearby (while being chased by the cops) would drive inside without thinking twice, then you close the door and take off.

[Black-Dragon96]

3 hours ago, Nutduster said:

 

It doesn't, sorry. It's a PvP game as long as PvP is allowed, scored and/or rewarded (this game does both), and not punished (this game seldom punishes it, except in the arbitrary case of personal vehicles being destroyed, and even for that exceptions are made). The fact that it doesn't HAVE to be a hostile environment, on the right day with the right lobby full of peaceful players, is not meaningful. Technically I could get that experience in any shooter game. A lobby of Halo or CoD or whatever else players could all agree to stop killing each other and just do weird glitches or break the map boundaries--I've been in such sessions in both of those franchises. It doesn't change the nature of those games though. And the fact that GTA offers lots of PvE or not-inherently-PvP activities doesn't mean that it's not at core a PvP experience. Because the simple fact is, "PvP optional" means the other guy always has the option, which means it's always on the table, which means you are relying on simple good-will gentleman's agreements to not get nuked.

 

And as a player for almost 8 years of this game, I can only say... good luck with that! I can't even get my friends, guys in my own crew, to not kill me in free roam for ten straight minutes. It's just too inviting to do it. That's the game we all signed up for, and no matter how fun the other activities are, that right there is the backbone, so long as you're in free roam.

Going by that logic I can call it an anime game because I can dress up as an anime character.

 

On the subject with your COD and Halo example, please reread my comment.

The reason I stated why gta online is not a PvP game is the NORMAL gameplay can still take place without any PvP.

Your example of "people agreeing to stop killing eachother to do some weird glitches" isnt exactly what I would call normal gameplay.

And your example of punishment for destroying personal vehicled is actually just another example of why it is not a strict PvP game.

I mean punishing someone for doing something that can easily happen during PvP would be rather silly in a PvP game.

[Nutduster]

3 hours ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

Going by that logic I can call it an anime game because I can dress up as an anime character.

 

 

I made this point earlier but maybe it got lost in my unfortunately large wall of text. So just to focus on it, because I think it's the most important part of everything I said: the reason I call free roam a PvP experience is because PvP is intrusive in a way that no other aspect of the game is. Sure, you can dress like an anime character. You can also race cars, gamble, do PvE-style missions, have car meets, and so much more. But NONE of those other activities infringe on anyone else's ability to make free roam what they want. You having a car meet doesn't impact the guy one block over having an anime dance party (or whatever else), and vice versa.

 

The one thing that does? You guessed it, PvP. It infringes on EVERYTHING ELSE.

 

And since Rockstar made it so easy to engage in PvP (even with unwilling participants); and since they also lock a number of activities into public sessions with passive mode forcibly disabled (e.g. business missions and heist preps, which literally won't let you turn passive on or abort your mission if you get attacked)--you get an experience where you can be trying NOT to play a PvP game, and then find out that someone else has chosen to turn it into that, for you. That's not something you can do to them with any other aspect of the game.

 

That, by definition, makes PvP the dominant mode of GTA Online public free roam. Not dominant as in the most popular (though I would bet that it is), but dominant as in all other modes are subservient to it. That is by design. And if you choose to be in public sessions, not in passive, you are in effect opting in for PvP *even though you may not actually want to engage in it*. You are volunteering to be attacked.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Nutduster

[Big Molio]

This is something I have always argued. Rockstar have created an environment where the intent is that it is the players who are supposed to provide the adversarial nature of the game with one another. Whatever the success of the reality, it can't really be disputed that their vision is that players will team up as CEO organisations, biker gangs or whatever, and play an adversarial game in their sandbox. There are no real computer opponents to speak of, they are token enemies only. The real enemies are supposed to be the other players, hence all the notifications and rewards for intercepting and interfering with the activities of players trying to do business work, deliver goods, deliver cars, business battles, etc etc 

 

The fact that there is an imbalance in how this can be carried out due to the hardware available and the constraints that other players are subject to is irrelevant to how Rockstar seem to intend for this game be played. It doesn't always work and can lead to a frustrating and miserable experience if you are trying to avoid it, but it is what it is. 

 

I get kicked for playing business battles. I get messages wishing me cancer for diving in and playing Stand your Ground or Haulage. It's just the nature of some players that they seem to think that public Freemode is the place where they have a divine right to fire up PvP game modes and be left alone to dance in front of each other until the timer expires and they all get paid.

 

I got news for them, they don't.

 

 

[Black-Dragon96]

8 hours ago, Nutduster said:

 

I made this point earlier but maybe it got lost in my unfortunately large wall of text. So just to focus on it, because I think it's the most important part of everything I said: the reason I call free roam a PvP experience is because PvP is intrusive in a way that no other aspect of the game is. Sure, you can dress like an anime character. You can also race cars, gamble, do PvE-style missions, have car meets, and so much more. But NONE of those other activities infringe on anyone else's ability to make free roam what they want. You having a car meet doesn't impact the guy one block over having an anime dance party (or whatever else), and vice versa.

 

The one thing that does? You guessed it, PvP. It infringes on EVERYTHING ELSE.

 

Actuall PvP does not infringe anything. Two guys going at it at the airport or even in the city have prettymuch no effect on anyone else.

The only thing that does are people killing afk players and other people for no reason besides inflating their K/D. And thats not PvP thats griefing.

 

And as I said since you claim its a PvP game please explain to me how it makes sense that you are actually getting punished for partaking in overly agressive gameplay.

You get badsport for blowing up PVs, even the ones that can easily kill you. At some point youll even get tossed into a special lobby with other troublemakers unable to play with the other regular players.

You get mental state when you kill a lot of players warning other players with a big red blip that you are an agressive ass.

 

How does any of this make sense if it is a PvP game?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Black-Dragon96

[Jimbatron]

8 hours ago, Big Molio said:

The fact that there is an imbalance in how this can be carried out due to the hardware available and the constraints that other players are subject to is irrelevant to how Rockstar seem to intend for this game be played. It doesn't always work and can lead to a frustrating and miserable experience if you are trying to avoid it, but it is what it is. 

 

I get kicked for playing business battles. I get messages wishing me cancer for diving in and playing Stand your Ground or Haulage. It's just the nature of some players that they seem to think that public Freemode is the place where they have a divine right to fire up PvP game modes and be left alone to dance in front of each other until the timer expires and they all get paid.

 

I got news for them, they don't.

 

 

 

This is generally true, but there should be an acknowledgement of how poor the PvP mechanics generally are from some updates, and also how much some individuals choose to be toxic for no rational incentive to themselves.

 

Business battles for instance are an example of a mechanic I think R* got right. I don't think anyone can have a complaint about a fight over the crates. It's all evenly matched, no one goes with an unfair advantage (maybe if you're low rank and unequipped, but it's not difficult to rectify that if you put a bit of effort into the game). Bit of a digression - with the aircraft carrier one, it's probably actually optimal to leave each other alone as there'll typically be enough for everyone and you don't have enough time to carry every crate back yourself. You'll simply waste time killing each other. But oddly I seem to be the only one who ever goes out there in my sessions! Still, no one should be complaining if they get killed participating in a business battle (assuming the opponent wasn't outright cheating, such as mod menu or god mode glitch etc).

 

If you then compare it to Biker sale missions. You're given a slow a55 delivery vehicle, unarmed and unarmoured. And from it's inception, the Hydra was already a vehicle players could buy. There is really no material benefit to some guy in a jet bombing someone's Biker sale - they get no money from it worth speaking about, and it can't be claimed it's a challenge either, it requires zero skill. Unlike the business battle, where if you get into a fight and win you can generally claim it was even competition. You have to look at the kind of player who flies around in a jet, off radar, just waiting for an easy target to bomb, that will gain them nothing but cause loss to the victim and think, well, that person is a d1ck. There doesn't seem to be any explanation for their behaviour other than malice, and there's only so far you can go to blame a poorly thought out game mechanic. For the record, I know enough tricks of the trade to avoid becoming a victim myself (and did back in the day when I still used some of the earlier businesses as a source of income). But I still see many new players getting trolled in this way. Should they know better? Maybe. Does that change my perception of the perpetrator? No.

 

So if you ask me it's a bit of both. Yes some people cry foul for any sort of combat, and they'll get little sympathy from me. But there are also some hard core trolls out there who claim "it's just the way the game is" as an unconvincing excuse for their low skill, malice motivated, cheap gameplay.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Jimbatron

[Aquamaniac]

Doing businesses is PvP since the game encourages the entire lobby to attack other organisations.

[Big Molio]

Just now, Jimbatron said:

So if you ask me it's a bit of both. Yes some people cry foul for any sort of combat, and they'll get little sympathy from me. But there are also some hard core trolls out there who claim "it's just the way the game is" as an unconvincing excuse for their low skill, malice motivated, cheap gameplay.

 

 

 

I can't argue with that. I personally don't go after anybody delivering either nightclub sales, bunker sales, or biker drug sales. I just don't see any sport in it. As you say, they are often constrained to a slow-moving van and can be picked off easy. The games I like to play involve having to actually fight for stuff. That's why I love Haulage and Hostile Takeover, or the jobs where the other crew have to ship the gold or the diamonds to the destination. I have had some awesome games playing those, where the "item" moves back and forth several times between players trying to get it to the destination. They write their own story when it is like that.

 

Even if I lose, if the game has been great I will send congratulations and a "gg" to the opposing players because that is what is important to me, good competitive gameplay. I did actually get a good reply from a Haulage match that I lost the other day, when the players replied with "Lol - that was intense", meaning that they obviously enjoyed it too.

 

But most of the time, you get a surly wishing of death or cancer, even when they win, just because they see you as "toxic" and a griefer who has interrupted their (PvP) game mode.

[RyuNova]

 

Same as real life, empathy.

 

Ask yourself, if I was this person and it was me that was about to get griefed or my hard-earned cargo destroyed would I be happy?

Edited May 3, 2021 by RyuNova

[Jimbatron]

3 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Even if I lose, if the game has been great I will send congratulations and a "gg" to the opposing players because that is what is important to me, good competitive gameplay. 

 

Slight digression from the topic, but it's a shame we don't see more of this. GTA IV was a bit more like that, every race and deathmatch was like this where there would be a "gg" at the end from everyone. So was CnC in the first few years (up to about 2011). We still tried to later but I think we all got a bit too serious and too focused on our own mistakes and being furious with them rather than acknowledging the good gameplay of the other team! So it's sometimes difficult if you're very competitive, but commendable and an attitude of respect we should all aim for.

 

To your point about the type of freemode PvP that works in GTA V's online there isn't enough of it in my view. I'm sounding too old school and nostalgic but I would like to see the variety you got in GTA IV's team mafia work, loads of jobs where the entire lobby could choose to go after, whether or not they own the relevant business, are in an org on on their own. The obvious choice would be to have Martin phone in the role Kenny Petrovic played. If you put the payment for winning at around $50k-$100k I think it would be enough incentive to ensure people went after it. The great thing about TMW was the sheer variety of different mini missions - escorting allies to Kenny, chucking severed heads into the river, assassinate targets, steal cars, blow them up etc. Not sure how many there were, perhaps 20 odd, but it felt like 50-100.

[Shiloh Comes]

16 hours ago, HamwithCheese said:

There's the whole social aspect of the game tho.

 

But, with all respect due, it's not. It's the very least social aspect of it because you are by definition in a place with a bunch of trainee sociopaths, so what kind of social aspect can you get from those who are attracted to a place like that and want to shoot on sight?

 

The real social aspect of GTA, the place where you will always find the coolest people, the people you can end up playing with for a long time and be mates with, are heists, and missions and jobs and races etc.

 

They are all there to progress, learn, enjoy and are the biggest fans of the game. They are the real social places in GTAO. To me, public lobbies are the anti-Christ of social. The whole concept of going into them is to enter a shallow, one-dimensional place where all you can do it drive, fly and shoot, so that's what they do because that's all there is.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Shiloh Comes

[Tomtomsengermany]

Who is saying griefers are interested in pvp never met a griefer. I never met one who could fight back properbly. 100% of them are "snacks" for pvp players, even the jet griefers. Once on the ground ive some level 4 noobs gave me harder fights.....

 

I dont think that the most of them are toxic per se ( apart from jet griefers, they are just idiots)  but they see a great opportunity to get some cheap kills to push their kd. 

 

Im a level 1200+ with having over one billion gta Dollars on my bank account + over 110k player kills.

 

How to become not toxic? I never get bored of killing griefers and you dont have to wait for long to meet one.....

[Lonely-Martin]

I just gave up with anything 'public only' and the game is just infinitely better as I'm much more in control of the experience I have. Be it solo, with friends, or if I fancy on call and find new randoms to play with. It's not perfect of course because any job/mode can have its share if idiots, but it's easy to just quit if a twat shows up. Plus it excludes me from content for no good reason IMHO, just lucky there's plenty elsewhere really.

 

Fortunately there's the MTU method that comes in handy if I do fancy a lil' roleplay as a biker or something, but it's been so long since I made a sale on anything, and when I do it tends to be I/E, but now the casino and Cayo heists are here, the game just got better and better for me.

 

I admire those still fighting the good fight like Yellow Dog With A Cone or BlackDragon et all, but I just can't. It can irk me to see how some make excuses or allowances for how poorly the game is designed in areas as I believe so strongly that the more diverse the appeal gets, the more money is in it for R* as much as anything which is the key factor in it all really. But R* have shown little interest in balance or options and since RDRO arrived and they didn't even have lobby choices at all, R* have shown what I believe is their desire to remove so much more freedom and choices in future (not only a lack of lobby choices, but no ability to change job/mode settings like in DM's or racing, and even a type of passive mode we can be killed in!!). 

 

So I've resigned to just defeat. I tried the feedback, had plenty of back and forth moments here, but their newer game has even less options, freedom, choice. Proved fruitless unfortunately. I'll sooner quit these games than have things so limited or worse, become toxic to enjoy a videogame. It's just not in me to be like that, despite my occasional frosty ways on here, lol.

 

I do agree with Big Molio and Jimbatron in how the game is set up and the way they play sounds about right, proper GTA to me, optional but heavy when you choose to play those type of tug of war modes, and fortunately all that VIP stuff, even business battles are available in any session so if I want an unlockable t-shirt, I can avoid the stuff I don't enjoy. Though I do disagree with Mo that the NPC's involved in freeroam businesses are 'token' as we've seen all too often how accurate an NPC is from great distances with an Uzi. NPC's and players coming at ya, oof!

 

The game had a real off-putting spell, around Gunrunning/Smugglers Run, after crates and bikers wore me thin, but since then things have come back to me more with the likes of the arena, casino, arcade, heists, and little bits.

 

So, more of that please and f*ck these businesses off!

[Nutduster]

3 hours ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

 

Actuall PvP does not infringe anything. Two guys going at it at the airport or even in the city have prettymuch no effect on anyone else.

 

 

Jeez, talking about moving the bar. I was clearly talking about someone attacking your car meet or your business mission. Not two 1v1-at-the-beach tryhards leaving you alone. PvP doesn't HAVE to infringe on you, but it very often does, as you well know. More importantly, it CAN infringe, but no other activity can. You can challenge me to a race, but you can't make me race you. But if you decide to shoot me, that's PvP, whether I wanted it or not.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Nutduster

[Nutduster]

3 hours ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

 

And as I said since you claim its a PvP game please explain to me how it makes sense that you are actually getting punished for partaking in overly agressive gameplay.

You get badsport for blowing up PVs, even the ones that can easily kill you. At some point youll even get tossed into a special lobby with other troublemakers unable to play with the other regular players.

You get mental state when you kill a lot of players warning other players with a big red blip that you are an agressive ass.

 

How does any of this make sense if it is a PvP game?

 

I have some news for you--a whole lot of sh*t about this game makes no sense, from a design perspective (or any other). It's the genesis of the term "Rockstar logic," after all. They want the game to be all things to all people. But they also force you into public, PvP-"optional" sessions to get access to a large amount of the content. It's not a coherent design and it never was. But everything has a true nature, whether its makers created it consciously or not.

 

As far as those punishments go, blowing up personal vehicles is basically the only one, and even that has numerous exceptions (one of the most notable, and obvious about showing Rockstar's intentions, is that blowing up a PV of someone with a bounty doesn't count; some VIP jobs also allow you to destroy all the PVs you want, amounting to a PvP free pass). "Mental state" is not a punishment--I am quite certain that the aggressive asses are proud of it. Not to mention, you get increases in mental state for killing NPCs and cops. Then other players are rewarded for killing you in turn. That should tell you right there that they expect players to go red and far from trying to discourage it, they expect it to drive further PvP play. Just running over peds at the pier all by your lonesome will turn you red and notify the rest of the lobby to attack you. Isn't that great? (Not so much.)

 

To summarize: the game design is incoherent and illogical, and for every argument about what it is or is supposed to be, there are probably at least five solid counter-arguments, because this game was made by a too-large team over a period of many years and never had a single vision governing it. Maybe a game like this would be almost impossible to design coherently, anyway, but they did a singularly poor job of it. Far too many of their decisions were clearly driven by money or loud complaining from just one pocket of the player base.

[el carlitos]

Look for an active crew which does activities you like. No matter what you are looking for, for example clean racing, stance car meets, role play, etc..

 

I made the experience that playing in a crew is totally different than playing solo. Not better or worse, but just completely different. If you didn´t try that yet, I would recommend to look for a crew.

This should avoid to become toxic just bcs. you will be into other stuff.

 

[Nutduster]

4 hours ago, Big Molio said:

 

But most of the time, you get a surly wishing of death or cancer, even when they win, just because they see you as "toxic" and a griefer who has interrupted their (PvP) game mode.

 

Yes, that. And the dumb thing too is that lots of people DO want it. How is anyone supposed to know, really? Players like you and me run VIP jobs specifically to get some competition going. I do heist preps in public sessions intentionally for the same reason. If I get attacked, it's game on. But there are a great many players who seem to think they should not be attacked while doing anything, unless they send out engraved invitations. I do get that most of the time, attackers are toxic assholes rather than good-natured competitors with a sense of sportsmanship, but that doesn't change the fact that Rockstar intended with most of these activities that you WOULD get attacked. They do everything in their power to ensure it.

[Moewe]

3 hours ago, Tomtomsengermany said:

Who is saying griefers are interested in pvp never met a griefer. I never met one who could fight back properbly. 100% of them are "snacks" for pvp players, even the jet griefers. Once on the ground ive some level 4 noobs gave me harder fights.....

 

I dont think that the most of them are toxic per se ( apart from jet griefers, they are just idiots)  but they see a great opportunity to get some cheap kills to push their kd. 

 

Im a level 1200+ with having over one billion gta Dollars on my bank account + over 110k player kills.

 

How to become not toxic? I never get bored of killing griefers and you dont have to wait for long to meet one.....

I can confirm this, i am playing pvp a lot too (rng, base, freemode fights) And most of the time griefers dont even attack me becouse they only want to f*ck ppl up. 

And i want to say "trayhards" are not automatic griefers, the friends i play with dident destroy 1 cargo since i played with them also they arent toxic like the most 1-0 p*ssy.

We just like PVP in this game. 

[SummerFreeze]

On 4/9/2021 at 1:23 AM, SummerFreeze said:

To me, on a philosophical level, hunting bounties is essentially the same as destroying cargo. If a player survives the bounty, it's his or her money. The game encourages you to hunt bounties, just like it encourages you to destroy cargo. There is a difference in value of course.

Yes, I'm quoting myself, but it's only to point out that two pages later the defense of bounty hunting has morphed into a defense of griefing in general.