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GTA III and Vice City fully reverse engineered


The Hero
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MeatSafeMurderer

Well I say we give them hell regardless. The last time they did something like this, as I remember it, we shat on them from a great height until they relented and allowed OpenIV to continue development. Maybe I'll update my old billboard mod...get the hilarious quotes rolling in!

Now...where did I put my f*ck take 2 avatar?

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1 hour ago, MeatSafeMurderer said:

Well I say we give them hell regardless. The last time they did something like this, as I remember it, we shat on them from a great height until they relented and allowed OpenIV to continue development. Maybe I'll update my old billboard mod...get the hilarious quotes rolling in!

Now...where did I put my f*ck take 2 avatar?

I agree with your opinion. Devs made counter claim against it and we will see what happends. Remember Vadim M videos about RGL versions? after all years, the have not included fixes from patch 1.01 to steam and rgl versions. 

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1 hour ago, zmudziak32 said:

I agree with your opinion. Devs made counter claim against it and we will see what happends. Remember Vadim M videos about RGL versions? after all years, the have not included fixes from patch 1.01 to steam and rgl versions. 

You know Rockstar and Take-Two are lazy when they can't even update their own 10, 15, or even 20-year-old games for newer hardware. As much as Skyrim has became a meme for being ported to many things and created the "let's go paywall mods" fiasco, even Bethesda are willing to put the work to get that game updated for newer systems. What's Rockstar and Take-Two's excuse with these games?

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MeatSafeMurderer
2 hours ago, zerosaber75 said:

You know Rockstar and Take-Two are lazy when they can't even update their own 10, 15, or even 20-year-old games for newer hardware. As much as Skyrim has became a meme for being ported to many things and created the "let's go paywall mods" fiasco, even Bethesda are willing to put the work to get that game updated for newer systems. What's Rockstar and Take-Two's excuse with these games?

They don't want to put the money in. It's the same reason that every new release of these older games has less and less music on the radio stations (or in the case of IV...new music that is completely period inappropriate) and more bugs. It's a travesty. I really hope they file a counter-claim and fight it tooth and nail...if they can. This is the second time they've done something like this...Take2 needs to be taught a lesson once and for all; this community is not something to be trifled with. Sadly if it goes to court it could end up being an expensive lesson, so we're probably better off dragging them kicking and screaming with a show of force. We've got them scared before, we can get them scared again.

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On 2/21/2021 at 7:53 AM, MeatSafeMurderer said:

They don't want to put the money in. It's the same reason that every new release of these older games has less and less music on the radio stations (or in the case of IV...new music that is completely period inappropriate) and more bugs. It's a travesty. I really hope they file a counter-claim and fight it tooth and nail...if they can. This is the second time they've done something like this...Take2 needs to be taught a lesson once and for all; this community is not something to be trifled with. Sadly if it goes to court it could end up being an expensive lesson, so we're probably better off dragging them kicking and screaming with a show of force. We've got them scared before, we can get them scared again.

Because they want money, that's the problem. 

Edited by Eldrenix
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in EULA "License Conditions ( https://www.rockstargames.com/eula?country=us )
You agree not to, and not to provide guidance or instruction to any other individual or entity on how to:
... i. reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, prepare derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;"


I'm sorry about that, because a lot of enthusiastic modders would only fix the bugs.

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5 minutes ago, GTA_007 said:

in EULA "License Conditions ( https://www.rockstargames.com/eula?country=us )
You agree not to, and not to provide guidance or instruction to any other individual or entity on how to:
... i. reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, prepare derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;"


I'm sorry about that, because a lot of enthusiastic modders would only fix the bugs.

Of course. Now lets take a look at CLEO, FiveM, SAMP. Literally the same.

The only reason of this: a FREE engine that can launch the game. But you MUST own a legal copy for launching this (because you need original game's resources).

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BrainDeadRaven

Being this isn't a paid project, I think they're more bark then bite. How can they argue that they are losing money? If OpenIV survived they're threats, I don't see why this is any different. At most it would involve a check to make sure the original install is there so they can't claim it hurts they're bottom line.

 

I'll be watching and cheering, I'm hoping for something like this for GTA:SA, I love the game, but OMG as a company they're sh*t lol.

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As much as I hate T2 for these tactics, it's impossible to not blame the devs for craving that attention and rushing this out so soon. Sorry, but when events such as OpenIV and LC port to V C&D, the GTA V BETA builds being forcedfully removed from a kid, or NTAuthority getting a C&D for his CitizenV mod happened, it's just stupid to rush these out when the projects were still getting daily (!!!) updates. You'd think that such events would stay in the minds of everyone for a long time, but no. They thought that because the Switch port of the project didn't get that much attention T2 wouldn't do anything. That's awfully naive. Literally everyone told them to not rush with posting a thread until it's done and they ignored that. Don't get me wrong this project is an evolution in the community, it's just that it's hard for me to defend this when the stuff above happened. And even if it wasn't T2 that did it, this would've happened sooner or later. That Unreal port of SA got its trailer taken down from Youtube, after all.

Edited by Jinx.
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20 minutes ago, Jinx. said:

Literally everyone told them to not rush with posting a thread until it's done and they ignored that.

Don't you know that re3 and reVC were fully completed?

HHnErXC.png


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7 minutes ago, _CP_ said:

Don't you know that re3 and reVC were fully completed?

It's completed when it doesn't get any updates or bug fixes. It still got numerous bug fixes daily. I know you're a shill for posting pictures of unrelated mods on other threads and boasting about it on Discord but atleast get your facts straight.

Edited by Jinx.
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BrainDeadRaven
41 minutes ago, Jinx. said:

It's completed when it doesn't get any updates or bug fixes. It still got numerous bug fixes daily. I know you're a shill for posting pictures of unrelated mods on other threads and boasting about it on Discord but atleast get your facts straight.

I can't think of the last game released that didn't need updates for years after release. Long gone are the days for testing. Its a mod, it will likely ALWAYS have bugs, my question is, was it functional?

Regardless your assuming is a done deal, and maybe it will be, but other projects have survived. I'm definitely going to be watching, popcorn in hand.

 

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MeatSafeMurderer
3 hours ago, GTA_007 said:

in EULA "License Conditions ( https://www.rockstargames.com/eula?country=us )
You agree not to, and not to provide guidance or instruction to any other individual or entity on how to:
... i. reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, prepare derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;"


I'm sorry about that, because a lot of enthusiastic modders would only fix the bugs.

Small problem...EULA's aren't legally binding. I know they look like they are...but they're not. A company can't just put in there that they get to murder your firstborn son. EULA's don't let you take away legal rights...legal rights like...oh...say...the right to use a product you purchased however you please...like...say...reverse engineering it? Also breaching the EULA would be grounds for bans, potentally a lawsuit for breach of contract...NOT filing DMCA complaints with github. The EULA is about as relevant to this discussion as whether or not I've wiped my arse yet today.

What is relevant is that sadly it has come to my attention that this project did not use clean-room design...which is frankly...not very smart. They took the (relatively speaking) quick and easy route and shot themselves in the foot in the process. It means that any legal battle to get it reinstated would be a very uphill battle (CRD isn't necessary to avoid it being a derivative work and thus avoid copyright infringement...but most of the time people who didn't use CRD lose)...it also means that anyone who either worked on re3 or even peeked at it is now tainted and can now NEVER work on a proper clean-room reimplementation of anything related to GTAIII or VC. It's not impossible that a court would determine it to be legal...but it would be insanely expensive to find out. I really hope we're able to light a fire up under their ass like when they CnD'd OpenIV (which is also the result of reverse engineering by the way...which should tell you just how irrelevant the EULA is), because making them sweat is about the only way I can realistically see this coming back...short of them filing a counter-claim and Take2 just...letting it go.

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10 hours ago, Jinx. said:

It's completed when it doesn't get any updates or bug fixes. It still got numerous bug fixes daily. I know you're a shill for posting pictures of unrelated mods on other threads and boasting about it on Discord but atleast get your facts straight.

PRBoom still gets bugfixes and that came out in 2001.

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15 hours ago, Jinx. said:

As much as I hate T2 for these tactics, it's impossible to not blame the devs for craving that attention and rushing this out so soon. Sorry, but when events such as OpenIV and LC port to V C&D, the GTA V BETA builds being forcedfully removed from a kid, or NTAuthority getting a C&D for his CitizenV mod happened, it's just stupid to rush these out when the projects were still getting daily (!!!) updates. You'd think that such events would stay in the minds of everyone for a long time, but no. They thought that because the Switch port of the project didn't get that much attention T2 wouldn't do anything. That's awfully naive. Literally everyone told them to not rush with posting a thread until it's done and they ignored that. Don't get me wrong this project is an evolution in the community, it's just that it's hard for me to defend this when the stuff above happened. And even if it wasn't T2 that did it, this would've happened sooner or later. That Unreal port of SA got its trailer taken down from Youtube, after all.

GTA3 and VC were fully playable from start to end under re3/reVC and that was the initial target, reLCS was an afterthought and sadly it required more input and creativity than the team could agree on. Going public after reVC was done was always the plan and the codebase is out there now and already been cloned a good few thousand times.

 

As for the EULA agreement, can anyone find any notice of them being mentioned on the original disc installers? The only reference point I can find of reverse engineering first being mentioned are from the last amended agreements on digital copies from 2010 onwards. 

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MeatSafeMurderer
17 minutes ago, Ash_735 said:

GTA3 and VC were fully playable from start to end under re3/reVC and that was the initial target, reLCS was an afterthought and sadly it required more input and creativity than the team could agree on. Going public after reVC was done was always the plan and the codebase is out there now and already been cloned a good few thousand times.

 

As for the EULA agreement, can anyone find any notice of them being mentioned on the original disc installers? The only reference point I can find of reverse engineering first being mentioned are from the last amended agreements on digital copies from 2010 onwards. 

I sadly only own the PC versions on Steam, not physical, but I do have PAL PS2 and Xbox copies of both GTA3 and VC.

The PS2 version's agreement is short and sweet (and in rather fine print at the bottom of the first page):

Quote

FOR HOME USE ONLY. Unauthorised copying, adaptation, rental, lending, dirstribution, extraction, re-sale, arcade use, charging for use, broadcast, public performance and internet, cable or any telecommunications transmission, access or use of this product or any trademark or copyright work that forms part of this product are prohibited.


The Xbox version has two, one short and sweet on the front page:

Quote

Unauthorised copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public peformance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited.


...and going into more detail on the warranty page in the back:

Quote

You may not reproduce, prepare derivative works based on, distribute copies of, offer for sale, sell, transfer ownership of, rent, lease, or lend to others the Program or accompanying documentation, or any portion or component of the Program or accompanying documentation; provided, however, that you may transfer the entire Program and accompanying documentation on a permanent basis as long as you retain no copies (including archival and backup copies) of the Program, accompanying documentation, or any portion or component of the Program or accompanying documentation, and the recipient agrees to the terms of the Agreement. Further you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or translate the Program or accompanying documentation, or any portion or component of the Program or accompanying documentation, nor may you make copies of the Program modules for use with other programs. This program is intended for private use only.


Based upon that I would firmly say that it's a definitely violation of the license agreement in the case of the Xbox version. The PS2 one...is a bit more grey area I think. I'm not a lawyer though so...take it with a grain of salt. I'd definitely say that Take2 were thinking about this kind of thing back then, atleast by the time of the release of the Xbox double pack, so it's very possible that it's in there somewhere.
Also selling Xbox copies without their manuals is in violation of the license agreement lol

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4 minutes ago, MeatSafeMurderer said:

broadcast, public performance and internet, cable or any telecommunications transmission, access or use of this product or any trademark or copyright work that forms part of this product are prohibited.

Funny thing is this means no one is allowed to stream the games or upload them to YouTube, etc, funny how these laws work 😛

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1 hour ago, Ash_735 said:

Funny thing is this means no one is allowed to stream the games or upload them to YouTube, etc, funny how these laws work 😛

And yet we got a couple of Let's Plays and even Longplays of these games still up on YouTube.

 

 

 

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so is this kill now?

I was really excited for native Stories ports.

Edited by Gundog
grammar
You are an aperture through which the universe is looking at and exploring itself.
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CharlesVercetti
14 minutes ago, Gundog said:

so is this kill now?

Not fully, some clones are reportedly wandering now, but for now it's a zombie with halted growth

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43 minutes ago, MeatSafeMurderer said:

C'mon guys, we've been asked not to share it here.

Apologies. I hope there's enough uproar from the community to reverse this decision but things seem pretty quiet here unfortunately. 😞

 

Edited by D T
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MeatSafeMurderer

C'mon guys, we've been asked not to share it here. Might not like it, the DMCA complaint is kind of bullsh*t (even if it's totally legit), but like...I'd rather this topic doesn't get closed so we can actually kick up a fuss and have a shot at getting Take2 to reverse their decision.

1 hour ago, CharlesVercetti said:

but for now it's a zombie with halted growth

This is the worst thing. It's not hard to find...and with the freecam it's easily my go to way to play GTA3 and VC now...but it could've been so much more. It was the keys to the city, no more need to implement stuff in ASI's, there was source code, which IMO lowers the barrier to entry somewhat...only now...we're basically right back at square one. Unlinking the physics from the framerate, proper real-time shadows, raytracing, completely unlimited limits...built in mod support on the scale of something like GZDoom...all the games merged into a single executable...
The sky was, ever so briefly, the limit.

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BrainDeadRaven
29 minutes ago, MeatSafeMurderer said:

C'mon guys, we've been asked not to share it here. Might not like it, the DMCA complaint is kind of bullsh*t (even if it's totally legit), but like...I'd rather this topic doesn't get closed so we can actually kick up a fuss and have a shot at getting Take2 to reverse their decision.

This is the worst thing. It's not hard to find...and with the freecam it's easily my go to way to play GTA3 and VC now...but it could've been so much more. It was the keys to the city, no more need to implement stuff in ASI's, there was source code, which IMO lowers the barrier to entry somewhat...only now...we're basically right back at square one. Unlinking the physics from the framerate, proper real-time shadows, raytracing, completely unlimited limits...built in mod support on the scale of something like GZDoom...all the games merged into a single executable...
The sky was, ever so briefly, the limit.

If its not dead yet, then don't be totally pessimistic. I thought for years I was like the last person still playing GTA:SA until I found current posts here, so apparently our modding community never seems to die. So, likely someone will build on it.

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Satoshifurude

Did somebody ever try add an new Car instead of use the existing Model Id i have actually problems with it.(sience i wont make extra thread of this)

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41 minutes ago, MeatSafeMurderer said:

C'mon guys, we've been asked not to share it here. Might not like it, the DMCA complaint is kind of bullsh*t (even if it's totally legit), but like...I'd rather this topic doesn't get closed so we can actually kick up a fuss and have a shot at getting Take2 to reverse their decision.

This is the worst thing. It's not hard to find...and with the freecam it's easily my go to way to play GTA3 and VC now...but it could've been so much more. It was the keys to the city, no more need to implement stuff in ASI's, there was source code, which IMO lowers the barrier to entry somewhat...only now...we're basically right back at square one. Unlinking the physics from the framerate, proper real-time shadows, raytracing, completely unlimited limits...built in mod support on the scale of something like GZDoom...all the games merged into a single executable...
The sky was, ever so briefly, the limit.

It had some serious problems with re3 and reVC though if you ask me. re3's 32-bit version refused to work with GTA III for someone reporting it on Github, I had some bizarre save game problem where it was working fine up until putting an ambulance in Portland's garage in the 64-bit version, ruining my ability to even play the game, and some others reporting some crashing issues with reVC (one mod I wanted to use from Steam didn't want to cooperate with reVC either for me). I was hoping the devs could get it ironed out soon and later add more fea--oh wait, Take-Two ruined everything for everyone.

Edited by zerosaber75
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MeatSafeMurderer
31 minutes ago, zerosaber75 said:

It had some serious problems with re3 and reVC though if you ask me. re3's 32-bit version refused to work with GTA III for someone reporting it on Github, I had some bizarre save game problem where it was working fine up until putting an ambulance in Portland's garage in the 64-bit version, ruining my ability to even play the game, and some others reporting some crashing issues with reVC (one mod I wanted to use from Steam didn't want to cooperate with reVC either for me). I was hoping the devs could get it ironed out soon and later add more fea--oh wait, Take-Two ruined everything for everyone.

Yeah, it's definitely not perfect, to be expected. Even if disassembling it and rewriting it directly is easier than clean-rooming it it's still not easy...and frankly I think the distinction is rather arbitrary. Whether the code was written by someone looking at a specification written by someone who was looking at disassembled machine code, or directly written by someone looking at disassembled machine code is kind of irrelevant when it comes to the question of whether or not it's actually the IP holder's code...it's nowhere near 1:1 either way...so it seems incredibly strange to me that one is considered almost unilaterally legal, while the other is evil and bad and you should go directly to jail and do not collect $200!

Anyway I had a bug in VC where the radio stations just stopped working, they were silent. Now I'll just learn how to replicate it and file a bug report on githu...oh...

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CharlesVercetti
46 minutes ago, zerosaber75 said:

 (one mod I wanted to use from Steam didn't want to cooperate with reVC either for me)

I don't think mods written for the default exe are supposed to work with a rewritten exe...

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@Satoshifurude, not a big deal. Tried to add both classic models, one replacing Esperanto, and one going as a 4000 ID. New handling, new text... Biggest problem is adding new soundbanks, since as of now it works under formula params.m_nIndex = veh->GetModelIndex() - MI_FIRST_VEHICLE; , which works for non-interrupted enums, but will not for some big ID's, unless condition is specified. Looks like a must have to me to get a different sound banks loader, aswell as handling manager to be able to add new vehicles without constant changes in the code.
Car ID 4000

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Excuse my ignorance, lately I am interested in what happens in modding (I do not do mods, I only install XD), what does this work allow us or what does progress mean?

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