Wayne Kerr 2,154 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 So the general consensus is that Diaz was behind the drug deal between the Vances and the Forellis being ambushed. But could there be a reasonable argument for it not being Diaz? I ask cause it struck me that if he was behind it, why would Diaz work with Lance after? Even if he may not have known who exactly the Forelli man who's part of the deal was (and thus not reocgnize Tommy), he surely knew who Vic and Lance were, he worked with them in VCS. Why then would he employ the brother of the man he killed, obviously Lance would be out for revenge Why would you let someone you tried to kill near you, it's needlessly risky. Was he so sure about his involvement not being discovered? Or could it be because it wasnt Diaz after all? I know Diaz boasting about his fortune in Cortezs party points to him somewhat, and if not Diaz then I don't know who else it could be (Sonny? But he seemed pretty pissed when his money was lost and I dont know anyone else who would). And apart from Diaz employing Lance I dont have any other alibi for Diaz, but could y'all make a case for Diaz' innocence? Link to post Share on other sites
Rhoda 7,093 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 This topic from a few years ago asks almost what you have here, and I link it mainly because I'm less familiar with VC and that I don't really believe it was anybody but Diaz. I don't doubt that R* are clever in their plots and writing, but I don't think there's an intention hidden layer to this. It's interesting to think about, especially when you start wondering who else it could be, but I think you're led to believe it's Diaz at a pace that makes sense. There isn't much in the way of red herrings, with only subtle clues to pick up that Lance is definitely not who he says he is. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne Kerr 2,154 Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 (edited) Ah that should teach me to use the search function next time hehe. Really liked this post from Tyla in that topic, he makes a case for Cortez as the man behind the ambush On 8/23/2014 at 12:05 AM, Tyla said: For sake of argument, what if it was Colonel Cortez behind the jump all along and the Forellis were collateral damage? He's got cause: his right-hand man has been selling his secrets to Diaz for the past two years. Even more reason to jump the deal: Vic Vance empowered Gonzales' treacherous relationship with Diaz by doing jobs so many jobs for him. Arranging to have the deal jumped would've been the perfect way to kill two birds with one stone. How? It should've gone down like so: Cortez hires Leo Teal to jump the deal after Ken Rosenberg approaches the Colonel to help him set up the transaction. Leo and the mercenaries successfully disrupt the deal -- everybody dies. The Mafia figures Ricardo Diaz is behind it and send hitmen down to rub Diaz out. After all, the Forellis were the most powerful crime family in Liberty City, right? While the Mafia take out Diaz, Cortez quietly has Gonzales exterminated by Teal and slips out of the country aboard his yacht. Sounds simple, huh? Hell. He could even "recover" the $3 million for the Forellis and make himself look like a hero. But it all f*cked up. People are looking to blame Cortez for the ambush and to top it all off he's got this Mafia psycho crashing his yacht parties looking for answers. What can he do about it? Brainwave - he thinks let's use the angry mob guy to tie up all my loose ends. Let's point him in the direction of Gonzales and Diaz and while he's at it, let's have him run around doing errands for me with the French. It turns out quite nicely for the Colonel. First Tommy takes out Gonzales and frees Cortez's name from "the stench of corruption." Then he vouches for Vercetti to Diaz and places Tommy in Ricardo's organization. Now he's got an inside man -- when the time comes, Cortez will be able to help him take down Diaz. Obviously, Lance making his move f*cks that all up but Cortez achieves what what he set out to do -- exact revenge against Diaz, Gonzales and to a lesser extent, Victor Vance. What do I think makes a strong case for Cortez being behind it? His slimy, slippery demeanour. Even Vercetti knows he's using him. And then there's the fact he's survived "thirty coups and nine death sentences" and "always manages to survive and get promoted." Some silver tongue on that man. Treacherous bastard. Pretty interesting. But then yeah, it's unlikely that that much thinking went to it, it's probably just Diaz. I still think its dumb why he employed Lance who knew him prior and who he tried to kill(unless he was so sure his identity was hidden) but maybe it was convenient so that Lance could be part for the story or maybe there's some explanation for that which I'm not seeing. Edited January 14 by Utopianthumbs 1 Link to post Share on other sites
E Revere 298 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 He was a huge cokehead as well as an arrogant moron. He probably assumed that Lance would never find out. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GhettoJesus 1,996 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) Interesting question and answers in both topic. Sonny couldn't have done it because he was itching to get into the drug trade and make dirty dollars. Tommy is hard to take down but I am fairly sure he wasn't about to rub him out at that time. Cortez couldn't have done it because the Gonzales and Diaz plot wasn't really written back then (especially the part which includes Vic). I don't believe he would get greedy over 2 briefcases of cocaine. As for why Lance is working for Diaz (once again keep in mind that VCS didn't exist, not even in a conceptual stage), Lance probably doesn't even know Diaz. Cortez set up the deal, Gonzales probably gave the intel to Diaz who ordered the goons to ruin the deal. Diaz might not even know Vic's full name so the moniker Quentin Vance doesn't say much to him. Vance probably isn't a common surname though but even if he knew Vic's full name he probably didn't make the connection. And if he did, well he could have assassinated Lance anytime, although Diaz confesses that he had plans to have Lance and Tommy made. So who else could have ambushed the deal? It's pretty clear that Diaz did it. The only other person I can think of is Gonzales orchestrating the hit alone (without Diaz knowing about the deal) for monetary gains. After the hit he would have money and coke and could skip town or try to pass it off as an unfortunate accident. Diaz somehow finds out about the hit and proceeds to blackmail Gonzales. He either hands over the goods or Diaz is going straight to Cortez for some good boy points (which might allow him to get closer to Cortez and get all the info on other shenanigans). Edited January 15 by GhettoJesus 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DR:BUSTA 1,178 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I guess Gonzalez organises everything Diaz just sends the hitmen without thinking Or Everytime they hear about a deal they send their hitmen without thinking 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DR:BUSTA 1,178 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 4 minutes ago, GhettoJesus said: Cortez couldn't have done it because the Gonzales and Diaz plot wasn't really written back then It's mentioned in VC website Sorry for double post Edited January 14 by DR:BUSTA Link to post Share on other sites
GhettoJesus 1,996 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Just now, DR:BUSTA said: It's mentioned in VC website Sorry for double post Still, not an appropriate way for Cortez to deal with it. Ken Rosenberg says that he set up the deal, it doesn't make much sense to ruin his own deal. His relations with the Forellis are neutral, with Gonales and Diaz it's lukewarm. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DR:BUSTA 1,178 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 18 minutes ago, GhettoJesus said: Still, not an appropriate way for Cortez to deal with it. Ken Rosenberg says that he set up the deal, it doesn't make much sense to ruin his own deal. His relations with the Forellis are neutral, with Gonales and Diaz it's lukewarm. I know that Diaz is the one who ruined the deal but I mean that the Gonzalez /Diaz thing was already established in VC so there's no way someone else could have ambushed the deal Edited January 14 by DR:BUSTA Link to post Share on other sites
Martin4004 23 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 On 1/14/2021 at 2:54 PM, Wayne Kerr said: So the general consensus is that Diaz was behind the drug deal between the Vances and the Forellis being ambushed. But could there be a reasonable argument for it not being Diaz? I ask cause it struck me that if he was behind it, why would Diaz work with Lance after? Even if he may not have known who exactly the Forelli man who's part of the deal was (and thus not reocgnize Tommy), he surely knew who Vic and Lance were, he worked with them in VCS. Why then would he employ the brother of the man he killed, obviously Lance would be out for revenge Why would you let someone you tried to kill near you, it's needlessly risky. Was he so sure about his involvement not being discovered? Or could it be because it wasnt Diaz after all? I know Diaz boasting about his fortune in Cortezs party points to him somewhat, and if not Diaz then I don't know who else it could be (Sonny? But he seemed pretty pissed when his money was lost and I dont know anyone else who would). And apart from Diaz employing Lance I dont have any other alibi for Diaz, but could y'all make a case for Diaz' innocence? Well, I have few arguments against that Diaz was behind the ambush of drug deal in Viceport. Just look at the script for first Mr Black's phone mission "Road Kill". At first, he will thank Leo Teal for getting out-townies (Forelli Crime Family) out of further Vice City's expansion. Basically Leo Teal and his mates were hired by Mr Black to interrupt the drug deal between Vance and Forelli crime families. Funny thing is even though Tommy knows, it's him, he keeps working for him. Another case is in the mission "Sir, Yes Sir!" for Colonel Cortez, Cortez is assuming to Tommy Vercetti, that Diaz might be related to the drug deal, but when Tommy asked him why he thinks so, Cortez doesn't give any concrete arguments, just a simple guess, so yeah, very weak argument from Juan Garcia Cortez. Then there's Gonzalez's case. Cortez says that Gonzalez could tell someone about the drug deal (presumably Diaz as they know each other according to VCS storyline). Again, Tommy asked him if Gonzalez sold them out, and Cortez doesn't says anything and kept talking about Forelli's money research. And finally, the Lance Vance's case. Lance Vance is very hungry for power, even we can see that during VCS storyline. He keeps talking that Diaz busted the drug deal without any proofs, all he really wanted was provoke Tommy Vercetti to take out Ricardo Diaz for own profits. All Lance was thinking about was money, even he betrayed Tommy, his only friend, in front of Sonny Forelli, because he didn't give him a fair slice as he said. Lance was a pathetic character. That's how I really see it. In other words, Gonzalez and Ricardo Diaz are innocent and not guilty about the drug deal in Viceport. Take care! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
