Elite is NOT Elite Anymore

[Zak Ras]

On 1/13/2021 at 5:35 PM, BeatsDown said:

The fact you can get the EC in the CP heists and still have about 9 mins to spare is simply ridiculous.

 

I'd like R* to return to the days when Elite Challenges were for the...you know... ELITE players.

From a mission design perspective; the main objective Rockstar set was creating a Heist that could be done with even more freedom than ever before while also being able to be played solo. They certainly achieved that level of freedom, so much to the point that the only variables out of the player's control are the guard placements and the types of secondary targets in which locations. The pitfall they had to avoid was creating one method that completely dominated all others, (Gruppe Sechs Big Con/Sewers Aggressive loop) whereas the original Heists and Doomsday are extremely linear missions in terms of both structures and environments, so it makes sense for those missions to have such tight par times.

 

Your main issue seems to arise from how forgiving you consider the Par Time. Having scrubbed over the timebars of a few of your speedruns, how many runs have you done that don't involve getting on the Manchez right outside the Main Gate then swimming away directly south? That's not a criticism, I'd expect a speedrunner to complete a mission THE fastest way possible (I certainly never knew how fast that actually ends the mission if you bike over to the most southern tip of land, rather than jump in the ocean right next to the keycode door so that might come in handy with one last run I have in mind for when the Sapphire Panther is released). If the Elite Challenge par time was as short as something like 6:30 like you suggested, then getting on the bike and escaping via swimming would pretty much be essential everytime on top of already hoping you get good randomized secondary target & equipment locations if playing solo. It would kill the player freedom Rockstar worked hard ensure that this Heist had, in favour of sweatily getting it done as fast as physically possible for a mere 100k, rather than giving players just enough breathing space to pick HOW they want to enter and escape, with a time limit that isn't unreasonable but does still require the correct mix of efficiency and haste to suit the method you choose.

 

If the par time were shorter, it'd make the Elite Challenge more restrictive allowing players to utilize less options, which again; Cayo Perico was Rockstars attempt to let players do a Heist ANY way they want, for a payout that becomes less worth the hassle. Personally, I would've added two extra objectives; Undetected and Office Vault, although I'd foress myself be advised against adding the Undetected one, since that locks players out of being able to do it Aggressive style.

[UncleScrooge]

12 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

It shouldn't be down to lucky matchmaking, regardless. I very much doubt there are many players who have done the completed the OG Elites simply by having luck with matchmaking, rather they've had a team put together and planned it all out.

 

So one could argue that those who do complete the Elite Challenges through matchmaking are potentially more “elite” as individuals than the others who “had a team put together and planned it all out”.

[BeatsDown]

4 hours ago, UncleScrooge said:

 

So one could argue that those who do complete the Elite Challenges through matchmaking are potentially more “elite” as individuals than the others who “had a team put together and planned it all out”.

No. It just goes to show, as I originally stated, that anyone can complete the Elite Challenge because of how long the game gives you to do it.

[BeatsDown]

5 hours ago, Cash 4 Clickbait said:

From a mission design perspective; the main objective Rockstar set was creating a Heist that could be done with even more freedom than ever before while also being able to be played solo... The pitfall they had to avoid was creating one method that completely dominated all others, (Gruppe Sechs Big Con/Sewers Aggressive loop).

 

Having scrubbed over the timebars of a few of your speedruns, how many runs have you done that don't involve getting on the Manchez right outside the Main Gate then swimming away directly south? That's not a criticism, I'd expect a speedrunner to complete a mission THE fastest way possible... If the Elite Challenge par time was as short as something like 6:30 like you suggested, then getting on the bike and escaping via swimming would pretty much be essential everytime... rather than giving players just enough breathing space to pick HOW they want to enter and escape, with a time limit that isn't unreasonable but does still require the correct mix of efficiency and haste to suit the method you choose.

 

If the par time were shorter, it'd make the Elite Challenge more restrictive allowing players to utilize less options, which again; Cayo Perico was Rockstars attempt to let players do a Heist ANY way they want

1) There will always be an optimised way of completing an objective. There is freedom in other heists, but you're still more likely to complete the EC doing it a certain way. Even getting artwork in DCH means you'd be faster which is reliant on RNG.

You'd do well completing the EC on Aggressive by going through the sewers as you need the headshots for it to be achieved.

2) Again, to be the fastest you would find the most optimised route. You have the freedom to walk all the way back to the airfield if you like, but how does that freedom help you? It doesn't. The tight time parameters should be there for the elite players to optimise the fastest way to complete the heist, as it was with all the others. it's not 'elite' in any sense of the word to complete the heist in 14:59 when others are completing it at least 9 minutes faster.

 

Does it kill the Fleeca Job when only a tiny percentage of players complete the Elite Challenge? No. What about all the other heists? No. Elite should mean elite and my issue, as stated in the title is that these are no longer lite player times.

 

3) All OG heists meant that you would utilise fewer options and go with the best. They even changed when the Hakuchou Drag came out to complete the Humane Labs, or when the Vigilante did to get a better Series A time and kills. Even things like knowing what apartment to start the finale in mattered. 'Elite' players would work all of this out.

 

They still can do any heist and approach they want, just like they can in other heists, it's just some ways are better than others.

[BeatsDown]

8 hours ago, PhilPerlmutter said:

 

No clue actually, does not matter for the point I made.

If you open your phone ingame and quick join either DCH or CPH, you will be kicked most of the time and the times you will not, connection error and glitches will stop you from playing the heist....etc

 

I even agree with your point that elite challenges are more difficult in the older heists.

In my opinion, the difficult heists to play were the doomsday heists, the aiming distance and accuracy was abnormal, at times a joke.

It might not be a big thing if you play running simulator on the console with auto aim, but when you have to actually aim as on pc, it plays a role, especially with growing enemies in the later acts.

 

I personally never liked the elite challenges anyway and I didn't either the mission medals in the single player (which were probably the idea for the elite challenges in the multiplayer). I would prefer a more open mission design with a way smarter NPC AI instead, that benefits you for being good or being an elite player in form of completing the mission faster and looting more money, and punishing bad players with a rambo mentality with being longer in the mission, earning less or even failing it completely and losing the complete heist.

Why are people now even comparing doing the elites with randoms and doing them with a proper team? Still, I've completed the Elites possibly hundred times over with randoms as I had been streaming the DCH 5 nights a week for about 10 months. One night I completed 13 heists in one evening. To say that completing the Elites with randoms is unlikely is simply wrong. Sure, there will be a few people who don't know what they are doing. With the OG heists now there is an extremely slim chance they'll get completed even with a team of people who know what they are doing.

 

PC players consistently have the fastest times and most headshots, so...

 

You're welcome to play the heists your way, but that still doesn't address what is considered elite.

[BeatsDown]

17 hours ago, Gridl0k said:

Why not have a different stream, where you quick job it, without messaging the host "follow me i'm amazing", just support them, and see how many elites you get.

Like I used to do with Diamond Casino Heists and complete them with ease?

 

There is a one hour cooldown on quick jobs for the Cayo Perico heist as I already tried this.

[BeatsDown]

17 hours ago, Gridl0k said:

 

Your hypothesis is that the Elite challenge is "not elite" because it's too easy. I offered evidence that disproves that theory. 

 

Can I and a mate Elite Big Con? Easily. Can me and a random? 1 in 10. And CPH? Not got it yet.

Your 'evidence' is that you are also not very good.

 

1 in 10? Get out of here.

[BeatsDown]

17 hours ago, SummerFreeze said:

We all have our vices, I guess.

 

You want the game to not call lesser players elite; I can't stop posting to this thread.

Yes, because, by definition, lesser players are not elite. Seriously, go back to school or buy a dictionary.

[BeatsDown]

13 hours ago, Gridl0k said:

I've only done 50 or so elite challenges so I guess by your logic I might be a bit crap

And how many of these were from the OG heists? My guess would be none, proving my point entirely.

[kenmy13999]

Wouldn't it for a real elite simply be enough to know he/she can call themselves elite? 

[Black-Dragon96]

2 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

There is a one hour cooldown on quick jobs for the Cayo Perico heist as I already tried this.

Last time I checked it was 30 min.

1 hour was DCH.

[BeatsDown]

Just now, Black-Dragon96 said:

Last time I checked it was 30 min.

1 hour was DCH.

It's an hour after completing a CPH from an invite. Don't know if it's different if it's from a quick job initially.

[RyuNova]

2 hours ago, kenmy13999 said:

Wouldn't it for a real elite simply be enough to know he/she can call themselves elite? 

 

No, this topic is the same as people that call themselves "real gamers" and look down on people who play on Mobile or Handhelds like the Switch for example. There is nothing wrong with wanting to "go for Gold" each time but figuratively spitting in peoples faces because the "plebs" can reach the same level as you seems weird to me.

[Black-Dragon96]

1 minute ago, BeatsDown said:

It's an hour after completing a CPH from an invite. Don't know if it's different if it's from a quick job initially.

Both from invite and on call are 30 min to my knowledge.

5 min between finish and the message from pavel to set up a new one.

[BeatsDown]

1 minute ago, RyuNova said:

 

No, this topic is the same as people that call themselves "real gamers" and look down on people who play on Mobile or Handhelds like the Switch for example. There is nothing wrong with wanting to "go for Gold" each time but figuratively spitting in peoples faces because the "plebs" can reach the same level as you seems weird to me.

No-one is 'figuratively spitting in peoples' faces'.

 

The issue isn't that some people aren't as good as others, the issue is that R* have destroyed all newer Elite Challenges. There is a gigantic gulf between the level of difficulty between OG heists and new ones, and putting them all in the same category of 'Elite' is simply mind-boggling.

[BeatsDown]

1 minute ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

Both from invite and on call are 30 min to my knowledge.

5 min between finish and the message from pavel to set up a new one.

Well to my knowledge, and I have this recorded on live stream a few times, it's one hour from heist completion to starting a CPH again through quick jobs.

[Black-Dragon96]

3 minutes ago, BeatsDown said:

the issue is that R* have destroyed all newer Elite Challenges

To me it seems like the issue is you not wanting regular players to complete an "Elite" challenge because you pride yourself calling yourself Elite.

[RyuNova]

40 minutes ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

To me it seems like the issue is you not wanting regular players to complete an "Elite" challenge because you pride yourself calling yourself Elite.

 

Basically what I was going to say. That's what I mean by "spitting on peoples faces"

[BeatsDown]

1 hour ago, Black-Dragon96 said:

To me it seems like the issue is you not wanting regular players to complete an "Elite" challenge because you pride yourself calling yourself Elite.

if 'regular' players can complete the Elite Challenges then they are no longer just for elite players, are they? Duh! Again, do I need to explain to you what elite actually means?

 

 

 

 

elite

/eɪˈliːt,ɪˈliːt/

 

noun

 

1. 1.

   a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

[BeatsDown]

Anyone else noticed that it seems the most opposed to making tighter constrictions for the Elute Challenges are those who would not be able to do it if it were? Speaks volumes.

[PhilPerlmutter]

4 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

To say that completing the Elites with randoms is unlikely is simply wrong. Sure, there will be a few people who don't know what they are doing.

 

Believe whatever you want.

My point stands, if you join using the quick job option or a random invitation, chances are not that high.

When you mention streams and in a earlier post "relative randoms", it makes me think anyway that they were part of a fanbase or people that knew you because of your streams, which would be of course not random.

 

 

 

 

[BeatsDown]

17 minutes ago, PhilPerlmutter said:

 

Believe whatever you want.

My point stands, if you join using the quick job option or a random invitation, chances are not that high.

When you mention streams and in a earlier post "relative randoms", it makes me think anyway that they were part of a fanbase or people that knew you because of your streams, which would be of course not random.

 

 

 

 

What are the chances of you completing an EC during Cayo Perico Vs Fleeca, Prison Break, Humane Labs, Series A, Pac Standard? Are they higher chances of completion for CP or lower?

 

I've completed many, many heists with people who have come into the stream for the first time and we've been successful. Sure, not EVERYONE I play with is a total stranger, that doesn't mean that many of them have not been.

[PhilPerlmutter]

26 minutes ago, BeatsDown said:

What are the chances of you completing an EC during Cayo Perico Vs Fleeca, Prison Break, Humane Labs, Series A, Pac Standard? Are they higher chances of completion for CP or lower?

 

I've completed many, many heists with people who have come into the stream for the first time and we've been successful. Sure, not EVERYONE I play with is a total stranger, that doesn't mean that many of them have not been.

 

Look, I did not even compare the difficulty of the different heists, especially elite challenge.

My personal opinion is though that the High Apartment Heist and Doomsday Heist ones are much more difficult than the Casino and Perico ones.

I just do not agree with that point that someone is bad because he cannot do elite with randoms very often, because it is other than you state not very likely (I speak mainly about Casino heist here).

 

Like it or not, but if people join your stream, it is a less general group of players than if you just join a quick job.

It is very likely that a respectable amount of them has watched you, seen how it is done and probably kind of copies your style, which certainly benefits your actual play.

If you don't believe me, give it a go.

Play on PC, create an account not linked to your streaming and join casino heist via quick job and feel free to experience what I described in a post earlier:

Many kicks and hosts leaving the session because they are not smart enough to close missions on default, then many heists that fail to be done because of gane beeaking bugs.

The ones that are left probably have a rate of 60% - 70% percent idiots who manage to do the dumbed things.

You would not believe what I have seen doing that, I mean it is funny at times.

But with that experience, I can conclude for me that the change is not very high with randoms.

Edited January 16, 2021 by PhilPerlmutter

[Gridl0k]

[SummerFreeze]

6 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

Yes, because, by definition, lesser players are not elite. Seriously, go back to school or buy a dictionary.

Bruh, it's a video game.

 

But also if you want to argue about the word elite, it originates from Latin and simply meant elected or chosen -- regardless of the parameters. So if the game deems you elite, you're elite, simple as that. Honestly, people who never learned any Latin shouldn't be allowed to discuss the meanings of words. If you disagree you must be an ignoramus who never learned Latin.

Edited January 16, 2021 by SummerFreeze

[BeatsDown]

20 minutes ago, SummerFreeze said:

Bruh, it's a video game.

 

But also if you want to argue about the word elite, it originates from Latin and simply meant elected or chosen -- regardless of the parameters. So if the game deems you elite, you're elite, simple as that. Honestly, people who never learned any Latin shouldn't be allowed to discuss the meanings of words. If you disagree you must be an ignoramus who never learned Latin.

So what if it's a video game? That's like telling Lewis Hamilton 'Bruh, it's just a car.'

 

Imagine using the origin of a word instead of how it is defined now. How stupid.

 

You're clearly not bright enough to grasp basic logic or definitions of words, as you've shown time and time again.

 

You're still missing the point entirely, despite it being explained to you on numerous occasions over several days now.

 

I guess you didn't know I used to teach English, huh? And I currently still work in education full-time? Nobody needs to learn Latin to understand what words are defined as NOW. Again, buy yourself a dictionary instead of wasting peoples' time here and humiliating yourself further.

[SummerFreeze]

36 minutes ago, BeatsDown said:

So what if it's a video game? That's like telling Lewis Hamilton 'Bruh, it's just a car.'

That's funny you bring up Lewis Hamilton because he has said the following:

 

"I just feel 'this is great winning these world championships, but what does that really mean?' When you retire from racing and you have one or two or God knows how many world championships, what does it really mean? It doesn't mean anything. It's what you do with it. It's the impact that you can have with it that really means something."

 

So Lewis Hamilton very much agrees with the notion of: "Bruh, it's just racing."

 

36 minutes ago, BeatsDown said:

You're clearly not bright enough to grasp basic logic or definitions of words, as you've shown time and time again.

You know that definitions of words don't work like rules in formal logic, right?

 

3 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

if 'regular' players can complete the Elite Challenges then they are no longer just for elite players, are they? Duh! Again, do I need to explain to you what elite actually means?

Can you point me to where Rockstar says the elite challenges are only for elite players?

 

3 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

Anyone else noticed that it seems the most opposed to making tighter constrictions for the Elute Challenges are those who would not be able to do it if it were? Speaks volumes.

Well, I've done it in under 7 minutes, and I did the previous elite challenges, but I'm also not a stuck-up pedant who needs to draw validation from a video game.

Edited January 16, 2021 by SummerFreeze

[Lonely-Martin]

3 hours ago, RyuNova said:

 

No, this topic is the same as people that call themselves "real gamers" and look down on people who play on Mobile or Handhelds like the Switch for example. There is nothing wrong with wanting to "go for Gold" each time but figuratively spitting in peoples faces because the "plebs" can reach the same level as you seems weird to me.

 

It's gotten a bit sour in here for sure, lol. Didn't realise how spicy it could get and a bit unfortunate to see it so.

 

Having read many opinions here now, I can agree with both sides in areas on this topic. But you make a great point about what it means or why it's important etc. I do enjoy the challenge and look at any that came with the heists or other DLC really, trophies on PSN another little aspect I can enjoy too, but I'll never use my being able to complete an elite/challenge as a way to say I'm better than other players in this way. If anything, it can show others that I'm reliable and capable to show them I could be helpful for other players I may meet to grow my friends list to get more from my game of it.

 

For as good as I feel I can be on heists, I'm equally crap at PvP modes for example. It's just an in-game challenge to check off, and only gives me more entertainment with my gaming really. I like knowing I can do these for me, much like knowing I made X amount of cash to buy that thing I wanted, you know?

 

Just personal little targets/goals that help me get more from my gaming overall. Pleased with myself, but beyond that, it means little else to others and not an aspect I'll look to use to call myself better in any way. Especially in a game like this where there's so many ways to play and other ways a player can best another out there. Just find what you like and enjoy it for yourself.

 

I did say it was 'a competitive thing' earlier, but it's more that I'm challenging myself to get better at an aspect I really love for me is all. 

[RyuNova]

1 hour ago, Lonely-Martin said:

It's gotten a bit sour in here for sure, lol. Didn't realise how spicy it could get and a bit unfortunate to see it so.

 

As I said, I have no issues with people wanting to be the best or "go for gold" as I put it, more power to them but an elitist attitude and looking down your nose at people is not what is needed. Raise people up to your level, don't stomp them down. I would think that more people being able to be "Elites" would invigorate someone like this but it seems that shiny little badge on the summary screen and a pat on the bum is what the TC wants. As I said, for the game to whisper "you’re better than everyone else" in is ear.

[Black-Dragon96]

4 hours ago, BeatsDown said:

if 'regular' players can complete the Elite Challenges then they are no longer just for elite players, are they? Duh! Again, do I need to explain to you what elite actually means?

 

 

 

 

elite

/eɪˈliːt,ɪˈliːt/

 

noun

 

1. 1.

   a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Regular players as in people who arent you. People who dont cream themself when they finish a challenge in a videogame called elite challenge.

 

You can call yourself elite as much as you please. I dont care.

You however arent elite at reading.

I never disagreed on the fact that the challenges are hard to complete, or that you need to be a decent player to do them.

 

I disagree on two things.

1. The fact that if you complete the challenge you are an elite player.

You are not. You can get carried through the challenge by someone who is and complete it while being utter dogsh*t.

Just like an elite player can struggle to complete it because of ridiculous AI (carbine rifle firerate bug).

 

2. The fact that some of these challenges deserve to be called elite.

They dont. An "Elite" robber who is robbing a casino wouldnt wait around till he shot 80 people in the head. He would haul a$$ to gwt away as quickly as possible.