Toni Cipriani and Cj

[GoodEveningFolks]

i think toni cipriani killed cj, he screwed salvatore big and toni is a loyal puppy so he had to kill cj. Let's discuss it. 

[Dr Busta]

Toni killed a made man not CJ

[Mascaracan]

Yeah, he killed a Made-Man and had to lay low for a while to avoid retaliation.

 

It's clearly based in The Godfather, the part where Michael Corleone kills Sollozzo and McCluskey and flies to Sicily inmediatly after until things in NY de-escalate, staying in the island for a year or so. This is obviously what writers had in mind, but for some reason there are people that take it in a way that Toni left LC to go to kill CJ, which would make pointless for Toni to leave the town for some years, since CJ isn't from Liberty, but wathever, for some reason exist people who prefers to believe in this CJ thing, I guess it's ok.

 

[universetwisters]

I think Toni killed CJ

 

>Wah Wah Wah it was a MADE MAN

 

Yeah well I’m looking at it as CJ had it made (he was a rap manager and co owned a casino etc etc) and none of that mob sh*t. Plus, would Sal really let the guy who robbed his casino, knowing fully well who it was, to get away with it other than a threatening phone call?

[billiejoearmstrong8]

Why is "who killed CJ?" a common topic of discussion when there's not even any particular reason to think he's dead, let alone that he was murdered or murdered by a particular person? Why is it always who killed CJ and not who killed any other protagonist we don't know the current status of? Who killed Claude? Who killed Tommy? Who killed Niko? What started this?

[H-G]

26 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

I think Toni killed CJ

 

>Wah Wah Wah it was a MADE MAN

 

Yeah well I’m looking at it as CJ had it made (he was a rap manager and co owned a casino etc etc) and none of that mob sh*t. Plus, would Sal really let the guy who robbed his casino, knowing fully well who it was, to get away with it other than a threatening phone call?

Not again... [facepalms]

 

Okay, on second thought, I agree on the Toni killing CJ part. It seems very plausible. But Toni fleeing Liberty City to avoid the incoming heat from a bunch of San Andreas hoodlums? No way. I believe he must've killed an actual made man from one of the rival mafia families two years(?) after killing CJ and then fled from LC. CJ may be a man who has everything, but I think his allies just aren't strong enough to walk into the Leones' home turf and put pressure on them.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Staunton Assassin

[universetwisters]

16 minutes ago, Staunton Assassin said:

Not again... [facepalms]

 

Okay, on second thought, I agree on the Toni killing CJ part. It seems very plausible. But Toni fleeing Liberty City to avoid the incoming heat from a bunch of San Andreas hoodlums? No way. I believe he must've killed an actual made man from one of the rival mafia families two years(?) after killing CJ and then fled from LC. CJ may be a man who has everything, but I think his allies just aren't strong enough to walk into the Leones' home turf and put pressure on them.

 

Let’s not forget that by the time SA is complete, not only is CJ in good standing with the Grove and Ceasar’s gang but also a triad syndicate (maybe some affiliation with LC’s triads?), a rapper, and quite possibly a government agency if Toreno was still looking out for him. If not the grove, why not those parties?

[Dr Busta]

47 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

I think Toni killed CJ

 

>Wah Wah Wah it was a MADE MAN

 

Yeah well I’m looking at it as CJ had it made (he was a rap manager and co owned a casino etc etc) and none of that mob sh*t. Plus, would Sal really let the guy who robbed his casino, knowing fully well who it was, to get away with it other than a threatening phone call?

Maybe he killed Woozie?

and that would be another reason why The triads hated Toni

Also didn't @Staunton Assassin and @universetwistershave the exact same conversation years ago or I am dreaming?

[universetwisters]

4 minutes ago, DR:BUSTA said:

Maybe he killed Woozie?

and that would be another reason why The triads hated Toni

Also didn't @Staunton Assassin and @universetwistershave the exact same conversation years ago or I am dreaming?

 

Nah we did lol

[H-G]

12 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

Let’s not forget that by the time SA is complete, not only is CJ in good standing with the Grove and Ceasar’s gang but also a triad syndicate (maybe some affiliation with LC’s triads?), a rapper, and quite possibly a government agency if Toreno was still looking out for him. If not the grove, why not those parties?

- GSF and VLA are street gangs (as stated in your post).

- Toreno gets out of CJ's life in "Home Coming" after freeing Sweet.

- Madd Dogg couldn't do anything about his previous manager Alan Crawford getting killed, let alone him getting revenge for CJ's death.

- The Mountain Cloud Boys and Liberty City Triads are entirely two different gangs, and the former probably failed to do anything about CJ's death due to no influence in LC.

[universetwisters]

>implying the families & VLA can’t be nationwide gangs like their real life counterparts

>implying the mountain cloud boys and LC triads couldn’t have some shared interests or affiliation that just isn’t mentioned in SA because how relevant would that be

[H-G]

9 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

>implying the families & VLA can’t be nationwide gangs like their real life counterparts

Of course, they can't. GSF and VLA have freshly come back into power at the end of SA's storyline. Not to mention, GSF is almost near to being nothing at the beginning of the storyline and gets temporarily disbanded after Big Smoke's betrayal. On the top of that, let's not forget that at the end of "Body Harvest", Cesar calls CJ to tell him about the VLA being completely disbanded.

 

14 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

>implying the mountain cloud boys and LC triads couldn’t have some shared interests or affiliation that just isn’t mentioned in SA because how relevant would that be

The Mountain Cloud Boys seem to deal with west coast-based Triads mostly, like Ran Fa Li's Red Gecko Tong.

 

In my opinion, Toni must've killed CJ after SA's storyline, but CJ's gang alliances just aren't powerful enough to pose a threat to a long-established, Liberty City-based Italian crime family. It must've been either the Sindaccos or the Forellis that made Toni flee before LCS' storyline.

[universetwisters]

Idk man the GSF is just one faction of the families and they could be more active elsewhere idk, like the Crips and bloods irl. But that’s just my speculation. Hell, don’t forget they literally own like 90% of LS by the time you beat the game so whatever lack of power they had in the storyline near the start, towards the end they kept getting bigger. Who’s saying they just stopped there?

 

We never see who the LC triads deal with since they’re just vague enemies so who’s to say they aren’t affiliated with the mountain cloud boys?

[Mascaracan]

The main point is that killing a Mafia member (Made Man) without permission is forbidden within the Cosa Nostra, that is what we are told in specialized media about the subject and what is portrayed in the movies and books. And this is why Toni is forced to get out of the city, because he needs to go unnoticed until the other family stop of looking for answers (we have to suppose that there were suspicions but nobody really knew it was him, else it doesn't make sense), and the departure is a way of protecting Toni since if the other family want revenge (again, like Michael Corleone), Sal couldn't stop it as they are in their right according to Mafia rules (Goodfellas). We have to remember that at the beggining of the game, Toni is just an associate and so he is when he kills the Made-Man. And the fact that it is clearly based on The Godfather can't be missed either.

 

Killing CJ on the other hand, even if he is very well connected, doesn't disable the Leones from protecting Toni and made unnecessary for him to leave the city.

 

Toreno could have taken down the entire Leone family easily if he was still protecting CJ and for some reason wanted retaliation, so Toni escaping of his claws by laying low for a while isn't consistent at all, at least without creating a side-story about Toreno looking for Toni but eventually dying making the hit on Toni expire, so he can return to LC after getting news about it, or something like that.

 

But what I always say, if LCS plot idea was about Toni returning after killing CJ, we would have been told about it at some point, it'd have been developed in the story and they wouldn't have just written it on the back cover of the DVD as a cheap way of introducing the character.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mascaracan

[Dr Busta]

I think the made man who got killed was someone related to the war that started between the mob during the events of San Andreas not only CJ made it worse but the Mafia became too broke and they still don't know who killed Johnny Sindacco and probably blamed each other so maybe the made man was someone in one of two other families who was in charge during that war 

[Jeansowaty]

This topic was flogged to death like a damn nag. CJ canonically was not killed by Toni and there is nothing to support that. It's just speculation.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jeansowaty

[EkaSwede]

Wrong. Maria Latore killed CJ.

 

It was quite the master play by Salvatore.

 

Toni can't even figure out whether he's SIPPriani or KIPPriani.

[Dr Busta]

5 minutes ago, EkaSwede said:

Wrong. Maria Latore killed CJ.

 

It was quite the master play by Salvatore.

 

Toni can't even figure out whether he's SIPPriani or KIPPriani.

Nah, man . Toni's mom killed CJ 

Edited December 14, 2020 by DR:BUSTA

[itsallup]

CJ is alive and well. He changed his name because of the heat coming from Liberty City you know but Franklin knew his whereabouts and paid him a visit. Now that Salvatore is dead he has nobody to hide from:

 

 

 

[Dr Busta]

18 minutes ago, Inttelix said:

CJ is alive and well. He changed his name because of the heat coming from Liberty City you know but Franklin knew his whereabouts and paid him a visit. Now that Salvatore is dead he has nobody to hide from:

 

 

 

 

[Copcaller]

It's possible sal did send some assassin's after cj off screen after end of line mission. I don't think toni was one though 

[Dr Busta]

Just now, Copcaller said:

It's possible sal did send some assassin's after cj off screen after end of line mission. I don't think toni was one though

 I don't think they managed to kill him though CJ fought the military like 5 times I think 

[Copcaller]

42 minutes ago, DR:BUSTA said:

 I don't think they managed to kill him though CJ fought the military like 5 times I think 

Nah cj killed em all with his m4 

[Jaden Lee]

You guys got it all wrong, after Catalina called CJ for the 1895466639th time he couldn't handle it so he shot himself.

[Dr Busta]

8 hours ago, Copcaller said:

Nah cj killed em all with his m4

I always used to think that this phone call was supposed to trigger the Mafia hatred towards CJ and not being able to enter their casino or maybe Sal would send some hitmen just like the lawn sharks

[GoodEveningFolks]

On 12/14/2020 at 2:51 PM, DR:BUSTA said:

Toni killed a made man not CJ

i know it man, i meant he also killed cj

y'all got it all wrong, i wasn't saying toni is laying low because he killed cj. I was saying he ALSO killed cj. Sal could've made him or someone loyal like him kill cj.

[Algonquin Assassin]

On 12/15/2020 at 1:50 AM, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Why is "who killed CJ?" a common topic of discussion when there's not even any particular reason to think he's dead, let alone that he was murdered or murdered by a particular person? Why is it always who killed CJ and not who killed any other protagonist we don't know the current status of? Who killed Claude? Who killed Tommy? Who killed Niko? What started this?

 

I kind of feel the reason is out of all the protagonists his fate is the most ambiguous. Some people think "Claude" is Claude Speed from GTA 2 which is apparently set in the "near future" so that rules him out of a plausible scenario where he might of been murdered. Tommy and Niko don't have any threats unresolved at the end of their stories and even if they did (like Bulgarin for example) they were silenced soon after so there's really no reason to think they were killed by anyone hence why no one brings it up.

 

For me one of the biggest plot holes in the series is CJ robbing Salvatore and thinking that Salvatore would just forget about it. Toni killing CJ (or being apart of it in some way) after the events of San Andreas and before LCS really isn't as far fetched as some people make it seem when you start thinking about the inner logic of the series.  It's interesting to think about either way if it's true or not.

[Dr Busta]

2 hours ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

For me one of the biggest plot holes in the series is CJ robbing Salvatore and thinking that Salvatore would just forget about it.

I guess it would have been better if Sal never knew or even blamed the other families thinking that they stole the money and betrayed the others (leading to their relationship in LCS) , this would have been much better and made much more sense , I think they wanted to just give CJ a badass phone call showing how he doesn't care about Sal it was cool but was it really needed?

Edited December 16, 2020 by DR:BUSTA

[Dr Busta]

Thinking of it now if this is real

Zero would be the reason why CJ died

[universetwisters]

34 minutes ago, DR:BUSTA said:

Thinking of it now if this is real

Zero would be the reason why CJ died

 

Why