Is the online intended to encourage griefing?

[CaliMeatWagon]

38 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Still fishing there I see, Cali. Bless ya!

Not fishing, just doing like the lot of you and sharing my opinion*. You got a problem with that? 

*Which is that most of you are overly sensitive, overly emotional people who willingly ignore facts if it contradicts what their feelings tells them despite it being a distortion of reality. 
Or in other words, a big part of what is wrong with society today. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by CaliMeatWagon

[Lonely-Martin]

16 minutes ago, CaliMeatWagon said:

Not fishing, just doing like the lot of you and sharing my opinion*. You got a problem with that? 

*Which is that most of you are overly sensitive, overly emotional people who willingly ignore facts if it contradicts what their feelings tells them despite it being a distortion of reality. 
Or in other words, a big part of what is wrong with society today. 

 

Sure, keep telling yourself that and slinging the insults, I can live with it as I'm far too thick skinned to let you rile me up, bubbo. Knock yourself out.

 

But no, no problem with you expressing your feelings at all. Let it all out my man. As @StyxTx mentioned back a page, it's just entertaining is all.

[CaliMeatWagon]

19 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

Every time I think of his "there is no such thing as griefing in the game" I can't help but crack up so he is good for entertainment purposes also.

 

Maybe you should take your own advice champ...

  

20 hours ago, StyxTx said:

Apparently you never read further to find out what I was talking about. Try reading more before replying because your comment is based on ignorance of the conversation.

 

[CaliMeatWagon]

3 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

Sure, keep telling yourself that and slinging the insults, I can live with it as I'm far too thick skinned to let you rile me up, bubbo.

You actually think I care about how you feel... or care about what you think of me... it would be cute if it wasn't so delusional.

Now tell me again about how a player looking at you sideways is considered "griefing" in your version of reality. Because that right there, that is entertaining. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by CaliMeatWagon

[StyxTx]

28 minutes ago, CaliMeatWagon said:

Not fishing, just doing like the lot of you and sharing my opinion*. You got a problem with that? 

*Which is that most of you are overly sensitive, overly emotional people who willingly ignore facts if it contradicts what their feelings tells them despite it being a distortion of reality. 
Or in other words, a big part of what is wrong with society today. 

I don't ignore facts as long as they bear some resemblance to reality. Your facts are based in your fairy and elf world most of the time.

[Lonely-Martin]

4 minutes ago, CaliMeatWagon said:

You actually think I care about how you feel... or care about what you think of me... it would be cute if it wasn't so delusional.

Now tell me again about how a player looking at you sideways is considered "griefing" in your version of reality. Because that right there, that is entertaining. 

 

Don't kid yourself, but cheers for the chuckles.

[StyxTx]

Let's take a look at the definition of griefer, including the part you neglected to post:

 

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities. To qualify as griefing, a player must be using aspects of the game in unintended ways to annoy other players.

 

So some people claim that griefers are just using game design. So that gives us 2 options:

 

1: R* does indeed encourage griefing through design

2: A player is using aspects of the game in unintended ways which makes them a griefer.

 

Pick one. Your argument just doesn't hold water.

 

As far as the intent argument, if they didn't get pleasure out of griefing then why are they doing it? Gee, let me go into this game which I find boring and kill players for no reason even though I can't stand doing it.

 

Let's have a show of hands. How many would do something voluntarily that doesn't give them pleasure?

 

Nuff said.

Edited December 30, 2020 by StyxTx

[StyxTx]

23 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

Don't kid yourself, but cheers for the chuckles.

I don't remember anyone saying someone looking at them sideways is griefing. So not only is he in an alternate reality, he's imagining things too.

Edited December 30, 2020 by StyxTx

[Lonely-Martin]

19 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

1: R* does indeed encourage griefing through design

 

This aspect is covered in this link, one I should have added long ago to be fair...

 

https://crappygames.miraheze.org/wiki/Griefing

 

This part being my main point and highlights yours you made pretty well too...

 

Developer Sanctioned Griefing: Some games, such as the online segment of Grand Theft Auto V, encourage resetting a player's progress through the destruction of crates, business supplies, and other valuables.

 

They specifically mention GTA:O, but RDRO is no different in how it's made too. And as my last sourced info was apparently the one with the definitions, this new one is just as reliable for any doubters.

 

13 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

I don't remember anyone saying someone looking at them sideways is griefing. So not only is he in an alternate reality, he's imagining things too.

 

Yeah, a bit of a wild claim that one, I never once called him a griefer and even apologised earlier in the thread for any confusion as he thought I had back then too. Silly stuff indeed.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Lonely-Martin
Apologies for the crappy white border, I just copy/pasted the paragraph as written in the link. :)

[StyxTx]

7 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

This aspect is covered in this link, one I should have added long ago to be fair...

 

https://crappygames.miraheze.org/wiki/Griefing

 

This part being my main point and highlights yours you made pretty well too...

 

Developer Sanctioned Griefing: Some games, such as the online segment of Grand Theft Auto V, encourage resetting a player's progress through the destruction of crates, business supplies, and other valuables.

 

They specifically mention GTA:O, but RDRO is no different in how it's made too. And as my last sourced info was apparently the one with the definitions, this new one is just as reliable for any doubters.

 

 

Yeah, a bit of a wild claim that one, I never once called him a griefer and even apologised earlier in the thread for any confusion as he thought I had back then too. Silly stuff indeed.

Yeah I was going to paste that developer sanctioned thing. If they do it for GTA then it follows they would do it in RDO.

[CaliMeatWagon]

9 hours ago, StyxTx said:

I don't remember anyone saying someone looking at them sideways is griefing. So not only is he in an alternate reality, he's imagining things too.

I was hyperbolically referring to this clowns definition of griefing. And you peoples wonder why I can't take none of you seriously. 

  

On 12/20/2020 at 1:19 AM, zPhoenix said:

Keep in mind that for it to be PvP and not griefing it has to be balanced and very intentionally - and with full consciousness - entered into by both parties.

 

In free roam;

• Anyone attacking a noob is griefing.
• Attacking someone that is in Defensive mode is griefing.
• Leaving initially Defensive players in Offensive mode after a mission ends is griefing by R*.  They really need to fix that bull.
• Using explosives as your first act against a free roam player is griefing.
• Attacking someone that is doing collecting (you can tell easily) is griefing.
• Killing a free roamer's horse as your first act is griefing.
• Attacking someone that is standing in front of a sheriff's office with a bounty is griefing.
• Hounding the cities to mess with people when they try to go to a store is griefing.
• Attacking someone who is very obviously frozen in a menu/map/inventory/etc is griefing.

 

And remember that the vast majority of players in RDO are polite, friendly people that will not mess with you when they see you.  Only one in 20-50 players I encounter are griefers.   That is because the nature of RDO attracts decent human beings who want a pleasant non-stressful time.  There is absolutely no logical / financial reason to cater to griefers or even trying to justify that griefing is how the game should be.

 

[CaliMeatWagon]

10 hours ago, StyxTx said:

I don't ignore facts as long as they bear some resemblance to reality. Your facts are based in your fairy and elf world most of the time.

LMAO! This is too funny. Every definition I have used has been established definitions. Unlike you, I don't make up definitions to words then get mad when people don't accept them. 

[zPhoenix]

2 hours ago, CaliMeatWagon said:

I was hyperbolically referring to this clowns definition of griefing. And you peoples wonder why I can't take none of you seriously. 

  

 

That was not a definition of griefing.  The definition was provided and quoted by several players here by quoting more authoritative sources.

 

What that was is a translation into specific RDO actions, in simple terms that any decent human being who didn't realize that he was griefing could understand.

 

Of course any clear description of griefing in RDO will feel too close to home for those who grief on purpose.  Those jerks will of course seek to attack the definition, translation and anyone who exposes them for what they are since they have no desire to change their habits.

[CaliMeatWagon]

12 minutes ago, zPhoenix said:

That was not a definition of griefing.  The definition was provided and quoted by several players here by quoting more authoritative sources.

 

What that was is a translation into specific RDO actions, in simple terms that any decent human being who didn't realize that he was griefing could understand.

 

Of course any clear description of griefing in RDO will feel too close to home for those who grief on purpose.  Those jerks will of course seek to attack the definition, translation and anyone who exposes them for what they are since they have no desire to change their habits.

This is how I know you are a clown. I'm a PvE player who spends my time in defense mode, spread sheating and breaking down this game for you ungrateful lot.
And in typical clown fashion you are just throwing sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by CaliMeatWagon

[Lonely-Martin]

53 minutes ago, CaliMeatWagon said:

This is how I know you are a clown. I'm a PvE player who spends my time in defense mode, spread sheating and breaking down this game for you ungrateful lot.
And in typical clown fashion you are just throwing sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. 

 

Trolling is a form of griefing, and your 'intent' is clear. Seems like you're not being chewed out for your in game behaviour, but your forum decorum. Your feelings got hurt by others not simply just accepting your opinions and interpretations on subjective matters and disagree with you, and you've been on the attack since with all the petty name calling and by your own admission, hyperbolic responses.

 

For someone who professes he doesn't care what people think on this topic, you're not half going out your way to prove otherwise. 

 

Besides, many indeed do appreciate your spreadsheet threads with info. sh*t, I even contribute to some of them. I surely wouldn't if I was ungrateful for those, many others do too. But if you need to bitch and moan about not being loved enough for those threads, express those feelings in the B&M thread and stop clogging this one up with all your clown talk.

[StyxTx]

23 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

Trolling is a form of griefing, and your 'intent' is clear. Seems like you're not being chewed out for your in game behaviour, but your forum decorum. Your feelings got hurt by others not simply just accepting your opinions and interpretations on subjective matters and disagree with you, and you've been on the attack since with all the petty name calling and by your own admission, hyperbolic responses.

 

For someone who professes he doesn't care what people think on this topic, you're not half going out your way to prove otherwise. 

 

Besides, many indeed do appreciate your spreadsheet threads with info. sh*t, I even contribute to some of them. I surely wouldn't if I was ungrateful for those, many others do too. But if you need to bitch and moan about not being loved enough for those threads, express those feelings in the B&M thread and stop clogging this one up with all your clown talk.

I have to admit I have alluded to one of his comments in several posts I made and without provocation from him just to tweak him. I tend to get smarmy sometimes. I've also said a few other things about him and someone else that I guess I shouldn't have. I apologize to them for that.

 

In the future I'll avoid doing that, to him or others. Hopefully that will decrease some of the back and forth.

[Lonely-Martin]

14 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

I have to admit I have alluded to one of his comments in several posts I made and without provocation from him just to tweak him. I tend to get smarmy sometimes. I've also said a few other things about him and someone else that I guess I shouldn't have. I apologize to them for that.

 

In the future I'll avoid doing that, to him or others. Hopefully that will decrease some of the back and forth.

 

A bit guilty myself too. It's something I've come to expect from many previous threads in the GTA:O section on the very same topics. It's more the old me and I tend to react rather than instigate these days, but that's not really any better to be fair.

 

I enjoy the forums and wide range of opinions and thoughts on things, especially a meaty/hot topic like this. But unfortunately I can bite when people go out there way to spice up and bait these threads. In future I'll just ignore or report it in hope things can remain as a fair discussion.

 

But it takes maturity to step up and accept responsibility, fair play!

[StyxTx]

23 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

A bit guilty myself too. It's something I've come to expect from many previous threads in the GTA:O section on the very same topics. It's more the old me and I tend to react rather than instigate these days, but that's not really any better to be fair.

 

I enjoy the forums and wide range of opinions and thoughts on things, especially a meaty/hot topic like this. But unfortunately I can bite when people go out there way to spice up and bait these threads. In future I'll just ignore or report it in hope things can remain as a fair discussion.

 

But it takes maturity to step up and accept responsibility, fair play!

Even though I rarely play the game anymore, I enjoy the forums and the members. For the most part, as in the game, the people here are friendly and seem laid back, more of a mature crowd.

[4eyedcoupe]

Life lesson can be learned from this thread:  If everywhere you go you are surrounded by clowns, morons, & as$holes all day, YOU are actually the clown, moron or as$hole.

[ScrappyBauer]

 

7 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

A bit guilty myself too. It's something I've come to expect from many previous threads in the GTA:O section on the very same topics. It's more the old me and I tend to react rather than instigate these days, but that's not really any better to be fair.

 

I enjoy the forums and wide range of opinions and thoughts on things, especially a meaty/hot topic like this. But unfortunately I can bite when people go out there way to spice up and bait these threads. In future I'll just ignore or report it in hope things can remain as a fair discussion.

 

But it takes maturity to step up and accept responsibility, fair play!

Why do you always act old and uninvested in the topic of discussion yet you still continue to interact with people you label as trolls and baiters? Seems silly to me, because if they are indeed trolling, you've already lost.

Edited December 31, 2020 by ScrappyBauer

[Lonely-Martin]

30 minutes ago, ScrappyBauer said:

 

Why do you always act old and uninvested in the topic of discussion yet you still continue to interact with people you label as trolls and baiters? Seems silly to me, because if they are indeed trolling, you've already lost.

 

I wouldn't say uninvested, after all, as you pointed out, I still take part in the topic and continue to add sources too.

 

But I get your point and that's why I posted what I did that you quoted. I enjoy the topic and reading people's thoughts on it and realised I got carried away with some silly shenanigans with another so blatantly not here to discuss and should have left be, so looked to steer things in a better way is all. I can accept the criticism you bring and only look to improve in future.

 

I suppose it surprised me more that it was a longer term user I once had a bit more respect for through how they seek to offer much to this place to help many and got the better of me. Ahh well, sh*t happens and it's done now. But alas, I did smile at being called old, lol. Not often that happens in an online discussion. Nice touch. 

[StyxTx]

13 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

I wouldn't say uninvested, after all, as you pointed out, I still take part in the topic and continue to add sources too.

 

But I get your point and that's why I posted what I did that you quoted. I enjoy the topic and reading people's thoughts on it and realised I got carried away with some silly shenanigans with another so blatantly not here to discuss and should have left be, so looked to steer things in a better way is all. I can accept the criticism you bring and only look to improve in future.

 

I suppose it surprised me more that it was a longer term user I once had a bit more respect for through how they seek to offer much to this place to help many and got the better of me. Ahh well, sh*t happens and it's done now. But alas, I did smile at being called old, lol. Not often that happens in an online discussion. Nice touch. 

Should we begin our comments to you with...Hey old person......from now on?

Edited December 31, 2020 by StyxTx

[Lonely-Martin]

10 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

Should we begin our comments to you with...Hey old person......from now on?

 

Just had a flashback to when Will Smith tries to get the other 2 agents attention in Men In Black.

[ScrappyBauer]

Hey, you are not old to me unless you're like 60, i'm in my late 20s and don't care what some fortnite kid calls me, i just found it weird, since you seem to be the most level headed person that i've disagreed with. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by ScrappyBauer

[StyxTx]

7 minutes ago, ScrappyBauer said:

Hey, you are not old to me unless you're like 60, i'm in my late 20s and don't care what some fortnite kid calls me, i just found it weird, since you seem to be the most level headed person that i've disagreed with. 

So 60 is old to you. I'm 65 so I guess I'm antique, kaput. Life over.  

Edited December 31, 2020 by StyxTx

[zPhoenix]

8 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

So 60 is old to you. I'm 65 so I guess I'm antique.

 

Since I know you also played Pong on the pre-consoles device that attached to the rabbit ear connector of a B/W TV, I think the correct old person name in this context is "Original Gamer".

[Lonely-Martin]

14 minutes ago, ScrappyBauer said:

Hey, you are not old to me unless you're like 60, i'm in my late 20s and don't care what some fortnite kid calls me, i just found it weird, since you seem to be the most level headed person that i've disagreed with. 

 

I appreciate the kind words there, thanks. I'm 40 in 2021 so for sure, there are days I can feel old, lol. Definitely no problem with disagreeing though, all part of this crazy world. I can certainly understand other points of view a often readjust my own If something comes up I've not considered.

 

I feel I must add, I'm never against PvP and totally understand different strokes for different folks. Just strongly feel there's much room in a game like this where more diverse playstyles can have their way without some of the negatives that can come from it. It's a shame R* aren't as keen as their fans to open this game up more IMHO.

 

16 minutes ago, StyxTx said:

So 60 is old to you. I'm 65 so I guess I'm antique, kaput. Life over.  

 

Can't lie, it always warms my heart to learn the generation before me can still enjoy today's gaming. I hope I still have the appetite for it myself as I reach an older age.

[CaliMeatWagon]

11 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

Trolling is a form of griefing, and your 'intent' is clear...

  There you go again with that crap, thinking you get to decide the intentions of others.
And that is what the whole disagreement comes from. One group thinks griefing relies on the feelings of the recipient. The other thinks it relies on the intentions of the perpetrator. 

11 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

...you've been on the attack since with all the petty name calling and by your own admission, hyperbolic responses...

I like how you completely ignore how this started and how at worst I was a bit snarky until people started talking out the side of their necks with dumb comments like "he's just out to grief the thread". How do you expect to me to respond to that? With rainbows and sunshine? Get real. 

 

11 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Besides, many indeed do appreciate your spreadsheet threads with info. sh*t, I even contribute to some of them. I surely wouldn't if I was ungrateful for those, many others do too...

 

But if you need to bitch and moan about not being loved enough for those threads...

Good job taking my comment out of context. An individual insinuated I was a griefer in-game and that was the reason I disagreed. With a few colorful words I explained how and what I did when I play the game. 
I don't want your appreciation nor for you to like me. I'm here to gather information, discuss the game, and voice my opinion. Not to make friends.

And I don't need your help and unsure if I even want it. Especially after this. But ball is in your court.
We'll see what happens. I smoke enough I'll probably forget about it anyway.

 

-------------------------------------------------

Now the we can all agree Rockstar actively, and I'd say heavily, encourages PvP. But the question is does Rockstar actively encouraging griefing.
For the sake of getting the conversation back on track I'll resign to the mob that definition relies on you feeling you were griefed, outside of a gameplay related PvP event.
My answer would be no. 
From what I see Rockstar wants  a world where PvP is almost always a possibility, and despite this they have actually put in measure to limit the amount of PvP. Especially if we compare it to GTA:O. For example, the proximity radar/mini-map addition, most of the roles are PvE, the reduction in notification area for attacking a players job, and the fact that Passive Mode Mk. II only limits you from a few activities. 
Also, I don't think Rockstar necessary agrees, and I don't agree, with idea that some have put forth that PK'ing is necessarily considered griefing. They like PvP and Red Dead Online is a PvP game. They constantly promote this idea the world being full of danger, outlaws, and killers. And let's be honest here. Causing mayhem is a part of Rockstar games DNA. Many of the RDO players are GTAO players and the way many of us have played past titles was to cause mayhem. That's how you played multiplayer before multiplayer. You R2/L2'd your way to your favorite weapon set, gave yourself 5 stars and then proceeded to kill everything in sight.  Once you died, you passed the controller. And remember the rampages? "Hey, here's a flame thrower, see how many NPC's you can kill in a short amount of time". Destroying/killing everything in sight is a valid way of playing, and in my opinion players are valid targets"
And this gets me on another point. If we seen a player going through Saint Denis killing every single NPC he seen, cop or not, maybe some of us would be annoyed, but we wouldn't call them a griefer (the NPC's might thought...). But if that same player sees other players as valid as a target as an NPC, the become a griefer? 
Why is it a problem with players getting killed, but not NPC's? #NPCLIVESMATTER

Now I 100% agree people exploiting game mechanics/features in unintended ways in order to screw with other players is griefing. We have common ground there. sh*t, I used to get stream sniped by pussi... I mean posses every time I tried streaming RDO. Thankfully a couple changes to some Xbox settings fixed that. 

But as it sits, if a player kills me, my default isn't "they are a griefer". Because to me, PK'ing, even persistently, is just as much of a valid way of playing the game as is not.

And my perspective isn't from one who enjoys PvP in R* games. It's horribly unbalanced (If BF can't balance explosives what makes R* think they can? Plus Free-aim same lobby as aim-bots?), it runs on a P2P network, and is rather pointless to me, no reward. To illustrate this I'm at over a thousand hours played with I'm sure under 50 kills. 

See, I'm what Astro Soup would label as a Grinder. I would much prefer a game world where the default is Us vs. the game and PK'ing rarely happens. Something akin to how Fallout76 is in that matter. 
 

Edited December 31, 2020 by CaliMeatWagon

[Lonely-Martin]

The funny thing is, Cali, we agree largely on much on this topic, just not the intent or 'feelings' part. Intent is clear as day at times and that's what I see as griefing when it's shown. Though the developer sanctioned part is true in my mind too. R* are guilty of exploiting that under the guise of gameplay. 

 

Simply stopping goods from being destroyed would go a long way to making things appear more competitive rather than allow things to just be blown up. Anyway...

 

As for the help on other threads, take it or leave it dude, they're your threads. If you ask me to not offer any help/info, I'd respect it for sure. I'm not out to piss on them. I just offer my bits to help you and others spread the knowledge, as to me, that's a huge positive to a forum like this and its neutral for all to use with no bias regardless of who. We can agree on areas and disagree on others with no problems I believe, I do with many here and IRL in various ways but we get along no issue, but if you can't look past this topic, that's fair play.

 

I simply respect the help you do offer elsewhere, it's not about like or dislike or making friends. I have more than enough, though always room for more, not that I'm suggesting we should of course. I never was looking to become chums, lol. Just expressed that I hoped a helpful longer term user would have a bit more respect in general instead, and if we get along, great, but at least a mutual respect for each other being here at a minimum is fair to ask. Cheers and have a good new year.

[zPhoenix]

@lonelyMartin: 

 

Preventing the destruction of goods to limit griefing is partially a good idea but needs more details.

 

For example the other day I had my delivery cart attacked.   It would have been valid if the attackers tried to steal it, but they had no interest in that.   Instead they used it as bait to keep killing and lasoing me as I tried to recover it.

 

The following might work for more scenarios:

 

- Prevent the attackers from destroying the goods.

- If the attackers do not steal the goods and fail to keep moving them towards their goal for more than a minute they should get transported to the opposite side of the map and away from any Fast Travel point

- Allow the player being attacked to destroy his own goods.  That should give a clear message that he is not interested in PvP.