The Triad Deal: A Continuity Issue?

[Mysterious hero]

After replaying both the TLAD and TBOGT, I noticed an interesting disparity between the missions "Chinese Takeout" and "This Sh*t's Cursed".

In CT, Billy is seen making a deal with the Triad leader to take out Johnny in exchange for the heroin.

But in TSC, this is contradicted by the fact that it's Jim who is suggesting to make a deal with the triads and Billy is the one who is against the deal. Then they head straight to Dragon Heart Plaza with no prior arrangements.

 

After playing TSC, here are a couple of plot holes:

- Why is Billy so vehemently against doing the deal, even though he set up the deal behind their backs?

- If Billy set up the deal, then why did he wait a while until Jim brought up the idea to deal with the triads? How would he know that Jim would bring it up in the first place?

- If Billy wanted to get rid of Johnny and Jim for "disloyalty", wouldn't there be an easier way to do that without having to sell back the heroin?

- When Billy gets arrested, why did he keep yelling that Johnny set him up?

 

This why I think that it was actually intended that Billy was not meant to have betrayed Johnny and Jim. Originally, it was just a deal gone wrong and Billy, presumably attacked by the triads, blamed Johnny for it and claimed that he set him up. Brian took Billy's word as truth and decided to start the Lost MC Civil War.

However, for some reason TBOGT decided to retcon Billy into betraying Johnny, which created multiple plot holes.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mysterious hero

[KGBeast]

This has already been labored over endlessly for 11 years in the Possible Trinity thread.

 

 

[Cheatz/Trickz]

You forgot the fact that Chinese Takeout happens after Three Leaf Clover because Liz is in jail, but This Sh*t’s Cursed is required to unlock missions for Liz, so it happened before Three Leaf Clover because in IV you only do Packie’s missions after Have A Heart. 
 

It’s f*cked. I just ignore Billy in that scene or think of him as a cameo/easter egg. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Cheatz/Trickz

[Mysterious hero]

10 hours ago, KGBeast said:

This has already been labored over endlessly for 11 years in the Possible Trinity thread.

 

 

Not really.

No one brings up the fact that Billy was against the deal in TLAD, but somehow set up the deal in TBOGT. 

The people in that thread were more concerned about the continuity error of Billy appearing in Chinese Takeout. rather than examining the logistics of the Lost MC/Triad deal.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mysterious hero

[Mackintoke]

BUMP.

 

Come on guys, keep thinking. I'm surprised this thread doesn't have more input.

[cant remember]

6 hours ago, Mackintoke said:

BUMP.

 

Come on guys, keep thinking. I'm surprised this thread doesn't have more input.

The conclusion is just that yes there are continuity errors, no explenation can get them to fully make sense.

[slimeball supreme]

"Episodes from Liberty City and its consequences have been a disaster for the GTA series. They have greatly increased the gameplay “diversity” of the so-called HD Universe, but they have destabilized the greater continuity, have introduced major tonal discrepancies, have subjected the events of their respective stories to events that completely defy suspension of disbelief, have led to widespread adoption of gimmick-skewed missions, and have inflicted severe damage on future titles e.g. Chinatown Wars et al." - Ted Kakszanaszcjky

 

On 12/2/2020 at 12:59 AM, Cheatz/Trickz said:

You forgot the fact that Chinese Takeout happens after Three Leaf Clover because Liz is in jail, but This Sh*t’s Cursed is required to unlock missions for Liz, so it happened before Three Leaf Clover because in IV you only do Packie’s missions after Have A Heart. 

id never actually considered this and now im putting my f*cking head through the wall. ugh

 

its pretty readily apparent with eflc that they didnt really have a framework or plan going into it beyond some general context and the missions our protagonists appear in. as a result both expansions are pretty disjointed both when tying into each other and the original game. they simply just went back and changed it. that applies to character intent, intent for missions, intent for stories. maybe they just felt they had a better idea. they had to lampshade these retcons a few times (willy valerio, leila sharpe) or others just ignore it completely (how the hell did the wiseguys in the museum not hear the f*cking helicopter land on the roof?)

 

this mission in particular intensely got under my skin because its so unnecessary. the story isnt really enriched and is in fact undermined by billy showing up for a how-do-you-do. we end up having to believe that two separate and distinct shootouts occurred in the same building in a very short timeframe and nobody felt like mentioning it. the cops just packed up after the first 30 dead chinese guys i guess. billy's dialogue is great, sure, he's a thuggish lexophile to the end, but now his motives are muddied and it recontextualizes the entire story. was he an impulsive madman chasing whatever high he could find, or did he have some kind of greater plan? now we wonder if the conflict between johnny and billy is a legitimate fight between interpretations of their MC's code or a virtuous man fighting someone disingenuous and self-serving. it's more interesting and in line with tlad's recurring theme (johnny f*cks up) that an ill-advised move resulted in billy going to prison, instead of billy being a supervillain the whole time. it's a super clumsy move which is actually unbecoming of tbogt, the less sloppy of the two dlcs

 

dreck!

 

but hey at least rocco was funny

Edited October 2, 2023 by slimeball supreme

[HOW'S ANNIE?]

I've always just concluded that Billy was just playing some type of 4D chess. The Billy we knew up until this mission would have never let Johnny and Jim just talk him into giving away $2m. Yet what happens with the tiniest bit of persuasion from those two at the start of the mission? He just says "Yeah you guys are right. Let's hand it back". He knew the Triads were gonna kill them, thats why he acted so out of character.

 

He wanted to have Jim and Johnny taken out by the Triads because if the club (the likes of Terry, Clay and Angus) found out he had them killed, he'd have a civil war on his hands. 

[Mackintoke]

Thank you all for your thoughts. MORE PLEASE!

[Datalvarezguy]

7 hours ago, slimeball supreme said:

"Episodes from Liberty City and its consequences have been a disaster for the GTA series. They have greatly increased the gameplay “diversity” of the so-called HD Universe, but they have destabilized the greater continuity, have introduced major tonal discrepancies, have subjected the events of their respective stories to events that completely defy suspension of disbelief, have led to widespread adoption of gimmick-skewed missions, and have inflicted severe damage on future titles e.g. Chinatown Wars et al." - Ted Kakszanaszcjky

 

id never actually considered this and now im putting my f*cking head through the wall. ugh

 

its pretty readily apparent with eflc that they didnt really have a framework or plan going into it beyond some general context and the missions our protagonists appear in. as a result both expansions are pretty disjointed both when tying into each other and the original game. they simply just went back and changed it. that applies to character intent, intent for missions, intent for stories. maybe they just felt they had a better idea. they had to lampshade these retcons a few times (willy valerio, leila sharpe) or others just ignore it completely (how the hell did the wiseguys in the museum not hear the f*cking helicopter land on the roof?)

 

this mission in particular intensely got under my skin because its so unnecessary. the story isnt really enriched and is in fact undermined by billy showing up for a how-do-you-do. we end up having to believe that two separate and distinct shootouts occurred in the same building in a very short timeframe and nobody felt like mentioning it. the cops just packed up after the first 30 dead chinese guys i guess. billy's dialogue is great, sure, he's a thuggish lexophile to the end, but now his motives are muddied and it recontextualizes the entire story. was he an impulsive madman chasing whatever high he could find, or did he have some kind of greater plan? now we wonder if the conflict between johnny and billy is a legitimate fight between interpretations of their MC's code or a virtuous man fighting someone disingenuous and self-serving. it's more interesting and in line with tlad's recurring theme (johnny f*cks up) that an ill-advised move resulted in billy going to prison, instead of billy being a supervillain the whole time. it's a super clumsy move which is actually unbecoming of tbogt, the less sloppy of the two dlcs

 

dreck!

 

but hey at least rocco was funny

I have a feeling they're not opening that nightclub anytime soon

[Krymefull]

1 hour ago, Datalvarezguy said:

I have a feeling they're not opening that nightclub anytime soon

They never did

[Nefarious Money Man]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:02 AM, Mysterious hero said:

After replaying both the TLAD and TBOGT, I noticed an interesting disparity between the missions "Chinese Takeout" and "This Sh*t's Cursed".

In CT, Billy is seen making a deal with the Triad leader to take out Johnny in exchange for the heroin.

But in TSC, this is contradicted by the fact that it's Jim who is suggesting to make a deal with the triads and Billy is the one who is against the deal. Then they head straight to Dragon Heart Plaza with no prior arrangements.

 

After playing TSC, here are a couple of plot holes:

- Why is Billy so vehemently against doing the deal, even though he set up the deal behind their backs?

- If Billy set up the deal, then why did he wait a while until Jim brought up the idea to deal with the triads? How would he know that Jim would bring it up in the first place?

- If Billy wanted to get rid of Johnny and Jim for "disloyalty", wouldn't there be an easier way to do that without having to sell back the heroin?

- When Billy gets arrested, why did he keep yelling that Johnny set him up?

 

This why I think that it was actually intended that Billy was not meant to have betrayed Johnny and Jim. Originally, it was just a deal gone wrong and Billy, presumably attacked by the triads, blamed Johnny for it and claimed that he set him up. Brian took Billy's word as truth and decided to start the Lost MC Civil War.

However, for some reason TBOGT decided to retcon Billy into betraying Johnny, which created multiple plot holes.

Perhaps we just don't see the bit where somebody gets in touch with them to set it up. The deal is already set in motion by Chinese Takeout and The Lost have been trying to offload the heroin for a while. The cutscene only begins part way through the conversation when Johnny walks in, so who knows what happened prior to that. There's no way he'd want to raise any suspicion by being openly for the idea having probably told Jim he's against it. 

 

I think Billy knows they'll inevitably be giving the heroin back because Jim wants to do it and makes a deal with the Triads to trade the drugs for his underlings, but his thinking is why just f*ck two people, when you can f*ck 'em all.

 

In TSC he looks to Brian before he says ok. Then he makes sure that Jim and Johnny go alone to make sure the Triads have them directly in the firing line and presumably he and Brian go around the back to sneak attack the Triads and take the Heroin back again, killing two birds with one stone. 

 

We already know that Billy set them up so it's completely stupid and unnecessary, plus there's still a major timeline discrepancy, so there's an error in continuity either way.

[Kushagr Jaiswal]

This is how I believe the events occurred -

 

* Jim finds out that the Heroin belongs to the Triads and tells Billy that it would be wise to sell the Heroin back to the Triads, instead of selling it to other parties.

 

* Billy, who already considers Johnny to be a disloyal Jew bastard, sees that Jim is starting to become too intimidated too easily, making him unfit for the Lost MC.

 

* Billy tells Jim that they will talk about this later in front of the brothers in the clubhouse.

 

* Meanwhile, Billy meets with the Triad member (as seen in Chinese Takeout) and sets Johnny & Jim up. Even though in the cutscene, Billy is only talking about Johnny, it is implied that the Triads will also kill whoever accompanies Johnny (i.e. Jim).

 

* Later, when the brothers are relaxing in the clubhouse, Billy waits for Jim to start the discussion about the Heroin and disagrees with Jim's idea (of selling the Heroin back to the Triads) in front of the brothers, in order to allay any suspicion (as seen in This sh*t's Cursed).

 

* Finally, the deal takes place and Johnny & Jim kill the Triads.

 

* When the cops arrive, Brian hides and they see Billy riding away from the scene. So, they arrest Billy, as they believe Billy to be responsible for the shootout.

 

* Billy getting arrested is purely due to luck, and no one sets him up to get arrested.

 

 

Also, on a side note, in GTA IV, if the call from Mallorie (in which she tells Niko about Elizabeta getting arrested) is delayed until after Final Interview, then things make much more sense.

 

Also also, the reason behind Elizabeta being so chilled out in Heavy Toll and Marta Full of Grace after being extremely paranoid in Have a Heart could be that she took care of the initial wave of police heat (evaded, killed, etc.) and was starting to feel victorious.

But then, by the time of Shifting Weight, the police starting closing in on her again.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Kushagr Jaiswal

[lilchris131]

I’m TLAD it seems like the Triads are being hostile because they are pissed off about the heroin. Before TBoGT came out you could assume Billy’s insistence that Johnny and Jim do the handover is because he knows they will be hostile. Of course, Chinese Takeout confirms it was a set up. But in any case, Billy seems to get attacked himself hence his beaten appearance when he is arrested.

 

Regarding Elizabeta, her voicemail message changes in GTA IV but never in TLAD. I have tested this personally and it happens 12 game hours after Have a Heart (perhaps time for Niko to do 2 missions for Packie but not 3 + Final Interview) and after this point the call from Mallorie will try to come in. The biggest difficulty is getting the interview with Goldberg set up by receiving a call from the Lawyers before Mallorie calls you.

 

To me, the voicemail message change basically confirms there is a plot hole because when Johnny calls her he will hear the old one… but I guess if Niko doesn’t call her you can just pretend it hasn’t happened. The intention is clear by R* that both character's missions for her should be close together, but it’s something that has to be glossed over for the timeline to work.

Edited December 4, 2023 by lilchris131