Why don't DLC cars deform?

[WildBrick142]

6 hours ago, suicidal_banana said:

I love what happens with the stock wheels of the penumbra, if you blow the tires off them, half the rim 'shatters'/breaks off along with it, while there's at least a 50/50 chance its just a bug (its debatable how realistic this is and i'm sure internally there's just a value that says "cut this much off the outer rim when the tire gets blown" that they might've screwed up) imo its still a really nice touch that i would like to see for more cars & on custom wheels too:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

lmao

i was always under the impression that it's a bug caused fivem/sp mods. guess not

 

 

and, yes, they have values exactly for that. one for front wheels and one for rear wheels. penumbra ff has them both set to 0.194700, which is like a f1 car-tier wheel scale. i set it to 0.254700 and now the tires pop perfectly.

 

 

this also means the tire now only pops if you shoot at, well, the tire, not half of the rim. makes me wonder if they screwed up the value on purpose so that the tires are easier to pop by players & npc's.

[Yellow Dog with Cone]

10 hours ago, suicidal_banana said:

 

Weight reduction bro

[Monkeypolice188]

The tire-pop wheelScale bug is all over. Infernus, Huntley S, Penumbra FF, R* can't help themselves 

[TheRandomUser1]

I think it has to do with how time-consuming it would be to make every DLC car deform. We would probably get less cars if every vehicle deforms. Rockstar's intention of adding DLC vehicles is to sell shark cards. Less cars means less shark card sales. If shark card buyers don't care about car deformation, then Rockstar devs probably think it isn't worth the effort to make cars deform. 

[SkylineGTRFreak]

On 12/1/2020 at 4:39 AM, TheRandomUser1 said:

I think it has to do with how time-consuming it would be to make every DLC car deform. We would probably get less cars if every vehicle deforms. Rockstar's intention of adding DLC vehicles is to sell shark cards. Less cars means less shark card sales. If shark card buyers don't care about car deformation, then Rockstar devs probably think it isn't worth the effort to make cars deform. 

 

It's literally a value you can alter within a minute. They choose not to do it on purpose.

[el carlitos]

2 hours ago, SkylineGTRFreak said:

 

It's literally a value you can alter within a minute. They choose not to do it on purpose.

But why? Does is inpact the overall performance of the game if the cars deform realistically?

In this case there is hope it will be changed with the enhanced version.

[SkylineGTRFreak]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:00 PM, WildBrick142 said:

they just set the visual deformation multiplier to be much lower than day 1 and early dlc cars

for example:
futo: 0.600000,1.000000
coquette: 0.600000,1.000000
bifta (beach bum): 0.600000,1.000000
turismo classic (cunning stunts: special vehicle circuit): 0.300000,0.300000
sugoi (diamond casino heist): 0.400000,0.400000

 

i believe it's because the car deforming to the point the wheels lock up is the most annoying sh*t ever so they decided to make cars deform less so it's not as much of a problem anymore - especially because those are "high-end" online-exclusive cars, and players might get put off by annoying singleplayer features that nobody asked for.

 

^

 

47 minutes ago, el carlitos said:

But why? Does is inpact the overall performance of the game if the cars deform realistically?

In this case there is hope it will be changed with the enhanced version.

 

I think Wildbrick pretty much nailed it with their post on Page 1

Edited December 2, 2020 by SkylineGTRFreak

[starfurexxed]

On 11/25/2020 at 7:00 AM, WildBrick142 said:

they just set the visual deformation multiplier to be much lower than day 1 and early dlc cars

for example:
futo: 0.600000,1.000000
coquette: 0.600000,1.000000
bifta (beach bum): 0.600000,1.000000
turismo classic (cunning stunts: special vehicle circuit): 0.300000,0.300000
sugoi (diamond casino heist): 0.400000,0.400000

 

i believe it's because the car deforming to the point the wheels lock up is the most annoying sh*t ever so they decided to make cars deform less so it's not as much of a problem anymore - especially because those are "high-end" online-exclusive cars, and players might get put off by annoying singleplayer features that nobody asked for.

I don't think you can do anything with the wheels in online unless you use a glitch with the titan to make them fall off. But yeah it makes sense why they might do that, still kind of a shame though. 

[123tm123]

lol @ the people who think someone manually makes the deformations for each vehicle. The game engine does that automatically, what is this 1995 technology?

 

They're just massively toned down and the real reason isn't for performance gain or laziness. It's because nobody enjoys having their vehicle wrecked easily in a wild game like GTA Online where you can't go down the street without 50 explosions throw at you. So they just made the vehicles somewhat indestructible and on top of that it also acts as a safety measure for the first person glitchyness because the mechanics were not originally designed around that system but merely adapted to it.

 

Lay off the crack, kids.

[el carlitos]

11 hours ago, SkylineGTRFreak said:

 

^

 

 

I think Wildbrick pretty much nailed it with their post on Page 1

I don't think that deformation is annoying, it's fun. I mean realistic physics is a good thing in games.

[lnterloper]

I think it's a deliberate decision, also newer cars tend to have more health than the vanilla cars, just compare how many shots a Zentorno can take versus a Carbonizare, also "armor" just increase the vehicle health, maybe deformation is tied to vehicle health and deformation ratio. Fun fact the Beater Dukes is quite deformable, I would risk to say comparable to vanilla cars, but in this case is a "feature" since it comes stock already deformed, so my theory is that resilience is just something they slap in new cars as a premium factor for them.

[Yellow Dog with Cone]

22 hours ago, 123tm123 said:

lol @ the people who think someone manually makes the deformations for each vehicle. The game engine does that automatically, what is this 1995 technology?

 

They're just massively toned down and the real reason isn't for performance gain or laziness. It's because nobody enjoys having their vehicle wrecked easily in a wild game like GTA Online where you can't go down the street without 50 explosions throw at you. So they just made the vehicles somewhat indestructible and on top of that it also acts as a safety measure for the first person glitchyness because the mechanics were not originally designed around that system but merely adapted to it.

 

Lay off the crack, kids.

In that case, they should retroactively update vanilla and early DLC vehicles to be just as sturdy as more recent ones then.

 

And while we're at it, either apply different offroad values, downforce values, tyres can clip values and advanced handling flag values to either all vehicles or none; also either make all spoilers add traction or not, not only a few.

 

Anything to make vehicles and driving, one of the main features of a game named after an automotive crime mind you, more uniform across the board.

[TCA]

Rockstar logic.

[suicidal_banana]

Pretty sure that the numbers people refer too still require the model to have so called 'deformation morphs' and its not like the engine actually is pushing vertices around hoping for the best/no visual glitches, somebody actually sat there and made a specific version of impact damage in a 3d modelling program, and the game then morphs between the two states, and while they might have to some extend generalized that (1 set of morphs for all SUV's etc?) the variation in recent car shapes is much bigger then the variation in cars that launched with the game, so a SUV deformation template that works for the 'vanilla' SUV's might not work for the latest additions because its just such a different shape, these new cars need new deformation modeling work done, and very few seem to actually be getting it.

And about deforming the car automatically, thats just not how vehicle damage works in GTA, this isnt a detailed physics sim like BeamNG or something, for the cars that do take damage you can clearly see how there's certain area's that get dents and certain that dont, its because (like mentioned before) its morphing between pre-made models of 'pristine' and 'destroyed' that are only made for certain area's of the vehicle, GTA4 did the same but it gets so much more praise because they went much further with the detail of deformation / amount of modeled destruction, the tech behind it is the exact same. (Its even the same in 3/VC/SA, but there the models instantly switch instead of morph between the two states)

Long story short, making nice deformation for vehicles takes time (its more work then 'just increase a value') and they dont appear to be taking that time for many of the new releases

Edited December 4, 2020 by suicidal_banana

[WildBrick142]

6 hours ago, suicidal_banana said:

and its not like the engine actually is pushing vertices around hoping for the best/no visual glitches

actually that's exactly what the game does. it pushes the vertices around, which is also why more polygons = better deformation. same in gta iv. they don't use pre-made damaged models like they did in the 3d era.

 

rockstar can control how much the vehicle deforms by the aforementioned values, as well as vertex paint. for example, one of the more recent examples:

 

through vertex paint they can control 4 different things based on different channels:

red = ambient occlusion (fake shadows)

green = deformation (specifically, which areas should deform less)

blue = burn map (when you blow up the car it shows a burned texture in painted areas - painted areas don't show the burn texture, unpainted do show it)

alpha = window tint (you can control which windows (or anything using glass material, looking at you, turreted limo headlights) can be tinted)

 

this is the green channel isolated:

painted conveniently around the interior, it's why interiors don't deform as much as the rest of the car. the white/gray areas don't have any paint set so those are the areas that actually can deform. this is basically set up for proper ingame deformation, just like every other car in the game.

 

everything else is then controlled by the two values, and since this car has them both set to 0.4 it barely gets a dent in and the interior area is literally indestructible.

 

 

here's the sugoi with it's visual deformation values set to be the same as a day 1 car (0.6, 1.0). vertex paint is unaltered, so you can see that the deformation basically stops where the vertices are painted.

Spoiler

 

deformation is quite literally a 10 minute job, if not less. it's not the devs being "lazy", it's a deliberate choice to limit it.

[suicidal_banana]

Hmm alright, so it sits somewhere between pre-defined (like the SUV example i opted, where theres like general purpose deformation mesh for a certain style of cars) and dynamic (the painting of where it can apply that deform)?

Because if like you said "its just pushing vertices around" that would mean it should be fairly easy to 'smeer out' or 'stretch out' a car by damaging it at the right speed/from the right angles (read: get it run over by a tank or train at the right angles) but it never does that, deformations stay within certain limits / theres never really any "spikes" like you get in other games with more dynamic deformations & a fully automated system, so i still think theres some sort of deeper logic involved, something like the earlier mentioned general purpose models (for lack of in-depth knowhow or better terms, like "3d volumes" of some sort? where the engine is told to "try morph the car between its base model and this crumbled up box in the rough shape of a car"? or an actual volume of irregular 3d points and the engine is trying to move vertices to hit those points. while limiting how many points it can pass in a single impact?)

Again, the issue i have here is that im missing the artifacts that you see in newer games with higher detailed deformation, so i just cant really believe "its fully automated", especially considering a 2013 game, after your nice explanation i will accept its more streamlined then i figured, but "oh its just pushing around pieces of the 3d model at will" would have very different effects if you ask me / if i look at different games that do 'straight up' do that.

Edited December 4, 2020 by suicidal_banana
fixed wording a bit

[WildBrick142]

it's fully dynamic. i don't exactly know how the game stops it from becoming a bunch of triangles, but if i have to guess there's some set limit on how much the game can move and rotate vertices. and since there's a lot of polygons it isn't really that noticeable whenever it rotates by, say 0.05, compared to a car with less polygons (like in gta iv)

 

you can still kinda make a mess of the model if you set the deformation values really high and play with a tank.

 

i believe the collision models are also used in some way, since they do deform with the car and take on whatever shape the deformed car is, but whether it limits the deformation i don't really know since it carries no material (of the shader kind, it still has a "material id" to tell it if it's metal, glass, wood, etc) or vertex paint data. either way it's something that all cars have to have so they're not skipping out in regards to that either.

[cursedsmokio]

IMO they might have been removed to keep online play more stable
many things from single player are missing in online like wildlife.