Why Is It A Thing On This Forum To sh*t All Over SA And TBOGT?

[Smash Bandicoot]

Is it some kind of satire? I can't go anywhere without seeing "TbOGT sUCks, LuIS sUCks, Cj SuCKs, sA SuckS!1", I mean seriously, WTF, I don't get the massive hate boner for these games, people blindly and blandly criticize these games and character because "oH, It'S pOPuLAR, sO LeT'S H8!!1", why is it that nobody NEVER, EVER, sh*ts on TLAD and VC, and when somebody does (which I might add, is very rare), people start sh*tting all over them? oh, I know, it's because people have a beyond unhealthy obsession with that damn cursed thing that makes me shiver, NOSTALGIA, they don't actually criticize or care, they just want to sh*t all over others, and this toxicity needs to STOP. people criticize CJ for being a whiny bitch that should've killed Crash... what kind of criticism is that? CJ isn't whiny, if there's truly a whiny GTA protagonist, it's Tommy Overcetti, my least favorite protagonist in the entire franchise who has little to no redeeming factors yet people worship him, and people say that the story is just "My friends betrayed me to my enemies and I fight my enemies" when that clearly isn't just it, that's only 30% of the whole story, not 100%, and Luis I have absolutely no idea why people sh*t all over him, maybe it's because of the diamond museum scene? I dunno, people keep saying "oH, SelFiSH LempDek!!" when they didn't even finish the game or pay attention to the story, Luis is FAR from selfish, otherwise he would've killed Tony and took his money, oh, and guess the true selfish GTA protag, his name begins with a T and NO, it's not Trevor.

 

 

TL;DR I'm really f*cking of this sh*t.

[KGBeast]

TBOGT sucks. Luis sucks. CJ sucks. SA sucks. It's popular so I hate it. 

 

(Just kidding, TBOGT is my favorite, but yeah, SA sucks.)

[Grotti Vigilante]

While I'd argue that you somewhat overestimate the amount of dislike towards CJ and Luis along with their respective games, I'll most certainly be the first to admit that there most definitely is a bias towards the darker and more down-to-earth GTA games like GTA III, Vice City and GTA IV on this forum. You can't necessarily put that down to nostalgia though since TLAD came out much later than Vice City. Most of the criticisms towards CJ I've seen are valid in that he's an inconsistent character in terms of how he acts, but that doesn't mean he's bad. I ranked him fourth on my list of favourite protagonists even if he is a busta. Tommy Vercetti though is just almost perfect as a protagonist, cause he's driven and ambitious, and pretty much all of the story is establishing himself as the kingpin of Vice City. He's certainly not whiny, because he's a man of action. He didn't sit and complain when Lance didn't get the bar to pay protection, he got off his backside and did it himself. He's surrounded by useless idiots for the most part.

 

For Luis though, I'll never understand why people dislike him so much. I mean granted he's never really his own boss and he is a bit of a douche who sometimes gets angry way too easily, but I've never found him to be particularly unlikable. He's not as strongly written as the other GTA IV protagonists, but he's by no means bad. Anyone who calls him a "selfish limpdick" is basing that on his relationship with women, which is always a pretty dumb argument because of how some of these people seem to think the women are victims of the sort, even though every encounter is consensual. He could've been more interesting if he had times of being his own boss instead of just doing things for everyone else, but for the most part he's a loyal individual, and I don't know anyone whose called him selfish. Most of the protagonists aren't really that selfish. Tommy isn't so much selfish as he just lives for himself and nobody else. He doesn't usually have anyone else to really care about, so he doesn't really get the chance to be selfless. 

 

I understand how frustrating it is to see the obvious bias towards certain GTA games than others, but unfortunately you'll just have to put up with it and challenge their perspectives in the most firm yet respectful and objective manner you can. If you can't handle it then by all means the internet isn't the place for you, but otherwise it's just a matter of taste that you have to respect. I personally don't play any sides of the debate because I like all the GTA games for different reasons, but at the end of the day the core identity is there. 

[Smash Bandicoot]

56 minutes ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

While I'd argue that you somewhat overestimate the amount of dislike towards CJ and Luis along with their respective games, I'll most certainly be the first to admit that there most definitely is a bias towards the darker and more down-to-earth GTA games like GTA III, Vice City and GTA IV on this forum. You can't necessarily put that down to nostalgia though since TLAD came out much later than Vice City. Most of the criticisms towards CJ I've seen are valid in that he's an inconsistent character in terms of how he acts, but that doesn't mean he's bad. I ranked him fourth on my list of favourite protagonists even if he is a busta. Tommy Vercetti though is just almost perfect as a protagonist, cause he's driven and ambitious, and pretty much all of the story is establishing himself as the kingpin of Vice City. He's certainly not whiny, because he's a man of action. He didn't sit and complain when Lance didn't get the bar to pay protection, he got off his backside and did it himself. He's surrounded by useless idiots for the most part.

What inconsistencies? CJ is always the same, all Tommy does is say "Prick" every goddamn 2 seconds and occasionally bully Kent Paul, those are his unfunny, cheesy, satires, he's not driven or ambitious, he has no clear motive other than MUNEY, every other GTA protag had to endure much more than he did, Claude had to betray, kill, and risk his own life just for revenge, CJ was exiled, traveled through 3 cities, did work for alot of people, made a sh*t ton of friends along the way, jumped out of a plane, stole top military equipment, rescued his brother from a life sentence, killed his childhood friends, etc, Toni was a man of pure patience and bravery, he never whined unlike Tommy, he isn't really driven by pussy or money, and he blew an entire district for his friend, Victor ended up f*cking his military job, did a bunch of insane sh*t, yade yade yada, Niko killed his friends, saw alot of people suffer, Bla Bla Bla, you get the point, all Tommy does is rip off random people he doesn't have much of a relation with to get cash, and he ends up killing one of them anyways, so it's not like it matters.

[Ash_735]

Where are you reading this? SA and IV are always held in high regard now, TBOGT was criticised in the past for being a bit crazy compared to IV and TLAD (and yes, Luis will always be bland who takes too much sh*t from people) but TBOGT is now looked at more fondly due to GTAV and GTAO being even more crazy and wacky and OTT.

[Smash Bandicoot]

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For Luis though, I'll never understand why people dislike him so much. I mean granted he's never really his own boss and he is a bit of a douche who sometimes gets angry way too easily, but I've never found him to be particularly unlikable. He's not as strongly written as the other GTA IV protagonists, but he's by no means bad. Anyone who calls him a "selfish limpdick" is basing that on his relationship with women, which is always a pretty dumb argument because of how some of these people seem to think the women are victims of the sort, even though every encounter is consensual. He could've been more interesting if he had times of being his own boss instead of just doing things for everyone else, but for the most part he's a loyal individual, and I don't know anyone whose called him selfish. Most of the protagonists aren't really that selfish. Tommy isn't so much selfish as he just lives for himself and nobody else. He doesn't usually have anyone else to really care about, so he doesn't really get the chance to be selfless. 

Luis was better written than Johnny, who had continuity errors and was trying so hard to be edgy it hurt, Luis is good at being what he is at, same applies for CJ, also, Tommy ditched ALL his friends, he ended up sending Ken to LV and never wanted to call him again, he never talked to his love interest again for no reason, he failed to treat his once closest ally and friend a bit more properly, etc.

2 minutes ago, Ash_735 said:

Where are you reading this? SA and IV are always held in high regard now, TBOGT was criticised in the past for being a bit crazy compared to IV and TLAD (and yes, Luis will always be bland who takes too much sh*t from people) but TBOGT is now looked at more fondly due to GTAV and GTAO being even more crazy and wacky and OTT.

Why do people even compare it to 4 and TLAD? non of 'em are really comparable to each other.

[Ash_735]

2 minutes ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Why do people even compare it to 4 and TLAD? non of 'em are really comparable to each other.

....Because it's the third chapter of that story? It's literally set during the same time as IV and TLAD, so of course it was compared to the events experienced by Niko and Johnny. But still, it does feel more grounded now especially after GTAV and GTAO.

[Lioshenka]

I don't know where you had that... I don't remember anyone saying anything unreasonably bad about SA in the last few months, and TLAD seems to be one of the favourites for many people - don't remember hearing anything bad about it!

 

The only GTAs that seem to be consistently criticised are V and Chinatown.

[Grotti Vigilante]

1 hour ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

What inconsistencies? CJ is always the same,

The inconsistencies of submitting to Catalina and Sweet while at the same time deciding to go on a murderous rampage on a nearby construction site for catcalling his sister, who most certainly did look like a hooker. If CJ is such a deranged individual that he will bury a foreman alive in his own sh*t just because his sister couldn't handle being catcalled, then by all means he should have no problem dealing with Catalina head-on instead of being deceptive and cunning with her to earn money, and he most certainly should not have let Sweet bully him into doing stuff for the hood. CJ should've had the spine to tell the ungrateful sod "listen, I busted my ass doing dangerous missions to get you out of jail, I worked for many criminals and did many illegal chores just to make sure we could all have a better life for when you finally did get out, so don't stand there and tell me I put in nothing for the family". But no, the same man who would massacre a construction firm is the some one who can't stand up to his narrow-minded brother. That is not a consistent character.

 

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all Tommy does is say "Prick" every goddamn 2 seconds and occasionally bully Kent Paul, those are his unfunny, cheesy, satires, he's not driven or ambitious, he has no clear motive other than MUNEY,

Aside from the hyperbole surrounding how often he says the word "prick" (which to be fair is still safe to assume is his favourite word), he most certainly is driven and ambitious because he made himself into the criminal kingpin of Vice City. If he wasn't driven he would most certainly have not made it there. Money is a motive for many other GTA protagonists anyway, so you can't use that as a criticism against Tommy.

 

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every other GTA protag had to endure much more than he did, Claude had to betray, kill, and risk his own life just for revenge,

Claude literally had no character though.

 

1 hour ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

CJ was exiled, traveled through 3 cities, did work for alot of people, made a sh*t ton of friends along the way, jumped out of a plane, stole top military equipment, rescued his brother from a life sentence, killed his childhood friends, etc, Toni was a man of pure patience and bravery, he never whined unlike Tommy, he isn't really driven by pussy or money, and he blew an entire district for his friend, Victor ended up f*cking his military job, did a bunch of insane sh*t, yade yade yada, Niko killed his friends, saw alot of people suffer, Bla Bla Bla, you get the point, all Tommy does is rip off random people he doesn't have much of a relation with to get cash, and he ends up killing one of them anyways, so it's not like it matters.

Tommy didn't whine though. He's not a whiner. He's a man who gets stuff done, and he's a man who doesn't take crap from anyone. You want to talk about ripping off random people he didn't have a relation to and killing them anyways? Claude's only defining character trait we can be sure of is the fact he's loyal to nobody and can be bought off for the right price. CJ worked for Jizzy and Salvatore Leone with plans to kill them and steal from them respectively. Tommy is no different, and that's how he made it to the top. I get that you may not like him, but your reasoning is just not in line with the established character. He is a man from prison out to make himself the kingpin of Vice City and distance himself from his old bosses, and he stops at nothing. It's somewhat simplistic, but it's no more simplistic than Claude simply wanting revenge on Catalina. 

 

1 hour ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Luis was better written than Johnny, who had continuity errors and was trying so hard to be edgy it hurt,

No he wasn't. Johnny was a well-written character until he was paid the greatest disrespect in GTA V. He was a biker who looked out for his brothers and lived only for them in his club. He wasn't a saint who desired an altruistic desire for peace, he only wanted not to shed the blood of his Lost MC brothers for pointless wars. He is very similar to Arthur Morgan in that he's a high-ranking member of his gang who ends up with increasingly tense relations with his leader who soon proves that loyalty doesn't mean as much as it once did, to the point he's willing to let him die, and then it becomes increasingly clear that the way of life he's known for so long is now becoming a thing of the past, cemented by the break up of his gang and the burning down of his clubhouse. 

 

By contrast, Luis is someone whose wanting to get away from the criminal lifestyle but is continuously being dragged back into it because of everyone else, be that his boss whose constantly getting into debt with the mafia, or his old friends still dabbling in street crime even though he's willing to help them. That's not to say he's a badly written character, but it's most certainly not as compelling as someone whose facing his way of life disappearing and his once dear friend and mentor proving himself to not actually be who he once thought. Luis is a good character, but he's just not up there with Niko and Johnny in terms of story writing. I do believe some of the dislike is unfounded, but let's not pretend he's a phenomenal protagonist we should strive for.

 

Also, please, not your "continuity errors" again. 

 

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Tommy ditched ALL his friends, he ended up sending Ken to LV and never wanted to call him again,

Ken became a drug addict who he sent to rehab because of the strains it put on him. We never found out why he never wanted anything to do with him again, but otherwise he most certainly didn't ditch all his friends. He's still friendly with Umberto Robina, he's very much on good terms with Mitch Baker, he's got a good partner in Ernest Kelly at the printworks. So as you see, he's got quite a few allies in Vice City by the end of the game.

 

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he failed to treat his once closest ally and friend a bit more properly, etc.

Lance? You seriously think he didn't treat Lance properly? You know what, you're right, but not for the reasons you think. Tommy was nothing but fair to Lance. He treated him well as an equal partner when it came to dealing with Diaz, and he was more than willing to work with him. But then Lance being the incompetent fool he is decided to blow his careful planning by going after Diaz before the time was right, and so he had to take immediate action which was considerably more dangerous than his original idea. Lance put the whole plan in jeopardy, and what did he get in return? He became a high-ranking member of the Vercetti Crime Family. So what did he do in that time? Well, he sat on his arse all day drinking and smoking after a bar refused to pay protection, forcing Tommy to go and deal with it himself. Then when he started complaining and whining to Tommy, he was offered to take some days off to relax, but it was never good enough for him. Tommy built his criminal empire on his own without Lance's help.

 

But because he was so entitled and insecure, Lance betrayed him because he felt like he wasn't given a fair share. In all honesty, he actually got off lucky. When he first screwed up by going after Diaz, putting the whole careful planning in jeopardy and risking both their lives, forcing Tommy to act fast and carry out a more dangerous plan to achieve his end goal, that is honestly when he should've been bunked off. But Tommy knowing Lance still had some value decided to give him a second chance, and what did he do? Well, he didn't stop drinking and deal with the bar refusing to pay protection, he sat around lazily letting Tommy do the grunt work. It was at that point Tommy should've said "listen, you've mostly been a good help as of now, but if you don't get your ass in gear, you're getting bunked off". Tommy's treatment of Lance was nothing short of fair, and in fact he was almost too lenient with him. Lance's problem was that he was insecure and self-centered, not the fact Tommy didn't treat him properly.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Grotti Vigilante

[Guest]

I hope I don't get a heated comment thrown at me for posting here, (not that I mind a debate though) cause I've seen OP get quite worked up over stuff before but anyway

 

San Andreas receives criticism from only a minority of fans overall who tend to not like it's more fantastical elements from what I've seen(like the jet pack, beating people with dildos etc) among maybe other reasons known to them I guess. Generally it's considered top 2 along with IV here

 

TBoGT, well from what I've seen it's mainly the more hardcore IV/TLaD fans that criticize it for not fitting with the dark theme of the other two/being a precursor to a game they hate more ie V. I dont like Luis that much but I disagree if that is the notion since I think TBoGT was the perfect finale to the trilogy, even if it wasnt perfect as a game ofc

 

Tbh it seems more a thing to criticize V/Online on this forum than anything else. Whether that is deserved or not, that's how it is here and I'm surprised you singled out SA and TBoGT while ignoring the much more hated V. Seen quite a few people who aren't dedicated IV fans say TBoGT is their favorite of the trio(going from memory here though) and I bet if you make a poll on favourite GTA, SA would be either no 1 or 2. Meanwhile V even has its appreciation threads bumped and commented by morons to only say they don't like the thing that is supposed to be appreciated, like the Franklin appreciation thread recently. 

 

As for Vice City not receiving enough criticism, in the unpopular opinions thread you'll frequently see a (funnily enough ) popular opinion that Vice City Stories is better than Vice City. I guess it may not receive as much criticism as SA but at the same time most consider it inferior to SA too. 

[Smash Bandicoot]

8 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

The inconsistencies of submitting to Catalina and Sweet while at the same time deciding to go on a murderous rampage on a nearby construction site for catcalling his sister, who most certainly did look like a hooker. If CJ is such a deranged individual that he will bury a foreman alive in his own sh*t just because his sister couldn't handle being catcalled, then by all means he should have no problem dealing with Catalina head-on instead of being deceptive and cunning with her to earn money, and he most certainly should not have let Sweet bully him into doing stuff for the hood. CJ should've had the spine to tell the ungrateful sod "listen, I busted my ass doing dangerous missions to get you out of jail, I worked for many criminals and did many illegal chores just to make sure we could all have a better life for when you finally did get out, so don't stand there and tell me I put in nothing for the family". But no, the same man who would massacre a construction firm is the some one who can't stand up to his narrow-minded brother. That is not a consistent character.

Well, if anything, it's realistic, his mood differs sometimes and he doesn't want to start fights with Catalina, because anymore trouble is big trouble with her, she's insane, he ends up dealing with Catalina head on in "Farwell, My Love" anyways, if your sister was sexually harassed in a city not even yours, in a world of murder and crime, what would you do? yeah, tell me, those workers might've become a bigger problem later on aswell, as they were building on top of the garage and they could've f*cked up the business, no person in GTA isn't a criminal anyways, as for Sweet, well, CJ wants to make his brother happy, he'd rather not start fights with him, and in the mission Grove 4 Life, he ends up calling him out anyways.

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Aside from the hyperbole surrounding how often he says the word "prick" (which to be fair is still safe to assume is his favourite word), he most certainly is driven and ambitious because he made himself into the criminal kingpin of Vice City. If he wasn't driven he would most certainly have not made it there. Money is a motive for many other GTA protagonists anyway, so you can't use that as a criticism against Tommy.

Every other GTA protag has more of a motive than just Money and nothing else, he didn't even know what he was gonna do at first, he was just working for any random person he encountered and that's it, he wasn't planning to become a master drug dealer.

[Smash Bandicoot]

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Tommy didn't whine though. He's not a whiner. He's a man who gets stuff done, and he's a man who doesn't take crap from anyone. You want to talk about ripping off random people he didn't have a relation to and killing them anyways? Claude's only defining character trait we can be sure of is the fact he's loyal to nobody and can be bought off for the right price. CJ worked for Jizzy and Salvatore Leone with plans to kill them and steal from them respectively. Tommy is no different, and that's how he made it to the top. I get that you may not like him, but your reasoning is just not in line with the established character. He is a man from prison out to make himself the kingpin of Vice City and distance himself from his old bosses, and he stops at nothing. It's somewhat simplistic, but it's no more simplistic than Claude simply wanting revenge on Catalina. 

He does take crap from other people, anytime someone he works for says anything non money related he starts saying "Look, I don't have time for this, I need MON$Y", Tommy has even less loyalty than Claude, CJ worked for Jizzy to spy on him and his group's plans, as they were effecting him, his gang, and Los Santos, CJ never intended to kill Salvatore, just do usual work, I don't think he would kill the father of his old friend, Joey.

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No he wasn't. Johnny was a well-written character until he was paid the greatest disrespect in GTA V. He was a biker who looked out for his brothers and lived only for them in his club. He wasn't a saint who desired an altruistic desire for peace, he only wanted not to shed the blood of his Lost MC brothers for pointless wars. He is very similar to Arthur Morgan in that he's a high-ranking member of his gang who ends up with increasingly tense relations with his leader who soon proves that loyalty doesn't mean as much as it once did, to the point he's willing to let him die, and then it becomes increasingly clear that the way of life he's known for so long is now becoming a thing of the past, cemented by the break up of his gang and the burning down of his clubhouse. 

Yeah, if that's the case, why is there a Los Santos biker gang then? he pretty much moved on from that biking thing, wouldn't make sense unless TLAD is non canon which I do believe, it would also explain why he has a relation to drugs in 4 and 5 but not in TLAD.

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By contrast, Luis is someone whose wanting to get away from the criminal lifestyle but is continuously being dragged back into it because of everyone else, be that his boss whose constantly getting into debt with the mafia, or his old friends still dabbling in street crime even though he's willing to help them. That's not to say he's a badly written character, but it's most certainly not as compelling as someone whose facing his way of life disappearing and his once dear friend and mentor proving himself to not actually be who he once thought. Luis is a good character, but he's just not up there with Niko and Johnny in terms of story writing. I do believe some of the dislike is unfounded, but let's not pretend he's a phenomenal protagonist we should strive for.

TBOGT is different in theming than the other 2, and there's nothing wrong with that, my only complaint with TBOGT is that it should've been a full game, not a DLC.

[Smash Bandicoot]

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Also, please, not your "continuity errors" again. 

Uh, Johnny being redesigned in TLAD, being addicted to drugs and a drug dealer sometimes but not others, etc.

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Ken became a drug addict who he sent to rehab because of the strains it put on him. We never found out why he never wanted anything to do with him again, but otherwise he most certainly didn't ditch all his friends. He's still friendly with Umberto Robina, he's very much on good terms with Mitch Baker, he's got a good partner in Ernest Kelly at the printworks. So as you see, he's got quite a few allies in Vice City by the end of the game.

Umberto is never once mentioned after his missions, he was like a family member to Tommy and Tommy just erased him off his memory, same with Mitch Baker, became sort of like a family, did many things for him then pretty much ditched him.

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Lance? You seriously think he didn't treat Lance properly? You know what, you're right, but not for the reasons you think. Tommy was nothing but fair to Lance. He treated him well as an equal partner when it came to dealing with Diaz, and he was more than willing to work with him. But then Lance being the incompetent fool he is decided to blow his careful planning by going after Diaz before the time was right, and so he had to take immediate action which was considerably more dangerous than his original idea. Lance put the whole plan in jeopardy, and what did he get in return? He became a high-ranking member of the Vercetti Crime Family. So what did he do in that time? Well, he sat on his arse all day drinking and smoking after a bar refused to pay protection, forcing Tommy to go and deal with it himself. Then when he started complaining and whining to Tommy, he was offered to take some days off to relax, but it was never good enough for him. Tommy built his criminal empire on his own without Lance's help.

Oh, yeah, don't forget that Tommy might've never killed Lance if they ran away in the mission "Cop Land", and Lance literally did a dangerous job and risked his life in that mission.

[kobeni]

Tbogt was pretty good

 

Sa was fun

 

There you go theory disproven

Edited July 10, 2020 by DownInTheHole

[billiejoearmstrong8]

2 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

 

Yeah, if that's the case, why is there a Los Santos biker gang then? he pretty much moved on from that biking thing, wouldn't make sense unless TLAD is non canon which I do believe, it would also explain why he has a relation to drugs in 4 and 5 but not in TLAD.

 

I don't understand how you can think TLAD isn't canon. Do you think TBOGT isn't canon either? With IV they're three parts of the same story and overlap with each other. They all have to be canon, it isn't possible for one of them not to be. How did the deal go down at the museum if Johnny wasn't really there? How were the diamonds left in the trashcans for Niko to collect if Johnny didn't put them there? It's like saying the parts of V where you play as Trevor aren't canon.

 

Johnny does have dealings with drugs in TLAD. The exact same dealings he has with drugs in IV, because it's the same story. What do you think he's doing when he works for Elizabeta? There's literally a mission in IV and a mission in TLAD where we see the same scene of a drug deal gone wrong with him (Blow Your Cover in IV, Buyer's Market in TLAD). He's also involved in the heroin storyline that runs through IV, TLAD and TBOGT. Maybe get to know the story better before you complain about it. 

 

 

Anyway I don't think TBOGT is trashed much. It's more just that people tend to like IV/Niko and TLAD/Johnny the best out of the three, doesn't mean TBOGT/Luis is hated. San Andreas/CJ usually comes under criticism as a backlash/counter argument to the massive amount of praise it gets. Threads that actually ask what the worst GTA game is don't get many people picking them. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Ash_735]

2 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Yeah, if that's the case, why is there a Los Santos biker gang then?

OK, honestly I've seen this from you multiple times now, if there's something YOU don't understand, then there can't possibly exist? Look up Nomads, look up split charters, etc. We KNOW there was a Los Santos faction of The Lost MC as Johnny, Terry and Brian visited them in 2004 and have patches from them on their jackets. We KNOW The Lost MC has other factions, even a smaller one is shown in-game via the Broker version. By the end of the game it's ONLY the Alderney faction of The Lost MC that was destroyed, meaning that any remaining members would've become Nomads and the implication is clear that in that five year time span, the remains of the Alderney charter rode west to Los Santos, it's even described on the in-game TV shows that The Lost MC fought the Angels of Death in a big biker war around 2011 making them to dominant biker gang in Southern San Andreas and the Angels of Death being pushed back up to San Fierro.

[Grotti Vigilante]

3 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Well, if anything, it's realistic, his mood differs sometimes and he doesn't want to start fights with Catalina, because anymore trouble is big trouble with her, she's insane, he ends up dealing with Catalina head on in "Farwell, My Love" anyways, if your sister was sexually harassed in a city not even yours, in a world of murder and crime, what would you do? yeah, tell me, those workers might've become a bigger problem later on aswell, as they were building on top of the garage and they could've f*cked up the business, no person in GTA isn't a criminal anyways, as for Sweet, well, CJ wants to make his brother happy, he'd rather not start fights with him, and in the mission Grove 4 Life, he ends up calling him out anyways.

It's not that he doesn't want to start trouble that's the problem. The problem is the fact the very same character who is considerably more passive than the two previous psychopaths we played as ends up destroying a whole construction site and killing a foreman in a very disturbing manner because of a mere catcall. I know it's a disturbing thing for many women, but how CJ reacted was so over-the-top, and that wouldn't even be a problem if the same man wasn't so passive with his brother and this crazy girl he was working with. If he has no issue attacking a whole construction site for a mere catcall than he should have the spine to stand up to people, especially Sweet. He may have wanted to make him happy, but he should've been more than willing to walk away.

 

He worked himself to near-death trying to ensure his freedom, and in that time he was building a much better life not just for himself, but for his family, so he had very firm ground to stand on in any argument. But instead he just lets Sweet berate him constantly, and again, that wouldn't be an issue if this same passive individual wasn't the same one who massacred a construction site for catcalling his sister, which in the world of GTA is so incredibly mild that all it'd take is a mere beating. You can't have these two traits in the same character and call it consistent, unless you're dealing with someone with some sort of Jekyll and Hyde personality (which I admit could be possible, but not confirmed for CJ anyway). CJ isn't a bad character, far from it. He's fourth on my list. But he's not the best, and he's most definitely inconsistent.

 

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Every other GTA protag has more of a motive than just Money and nothing else, he didn't even know what he was gonna do at first, he was just working for any random person he encountered and that's it, he wasn't planning to become a master drug dealer.

Tommy knew what he was going to do. He was going to find out who screwed up his deal, and then kill them. As the game progressed he decided that he no longer wanted to work in the interest of the Forelli family and decided that it was going to be him who received the fruits of his labour, not some mobster in Liberty City who betrayed him fifteen years ago. Be that work through running a nightclub, counterfeit cash printing under the guise of a printworks business, be it drug dealing through the guise of an ice cream factory, or be it through stealing cars to sell at Sunshine Autos. His motives were simple. 

 

3 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

He does take crap from other people, anytime someone he works for says anything non money related he starts saying "Look, I don't have time for this, I need MON$Y",

Except that's not what happened though. He was a man with dangerous debts and a man with a plan for himself. He didn't want any unnecessary distractions, and he most certainly didn't want to go off track in his work unless it suited him to some degree. But his sole motive was not money, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

 

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Tommy has even less loyalty than Claude,

No he doesn't. He may not have had many loyalties to begin with, but he never betrayed anyone except Diaz and maybe Auntie Poulet, and even then he was never truly loyal to them to begin with. By contrast, he was the one getting betrayed, be it by Sonny or by Lance. Meanwhile, Claude not only has no loyalties, but he will very much betray anyone if someone pays him the right price. Doesn't matter if Kenji Kasen treated him well and gave him money, he was more than willing to run him over just because Donald Love paid him enough. Claude was not a man renowned for his loyalty, because simply speaking he doesn't have any. To suggest he's somehow more loyal than Tommy is straight up incorrect.

 

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CJ worked for Jizzy to spy on him and his group's plans, as they were effecting him, his gang, and Los Santos,

Tommy worked for Diaz to get close to him and kill him, as he was the one responsible for his deal going wrong and putting him in a dangerous debt and situation. Strange how only one of them is defensible for you.

 

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CJ never intended to kill Salvatore, just do usual work, I don't think he would kill the father of his old friend, Joey.

But he did intend to rip him off, and the fact he was the father of an old friend makes his action worse, because he's no longer ripping off a random individual. The point is, Tommy doesn't do anything no other protagonist has done, and I don't hold their actions against any of them since they are criminals, and by default bad people. 

 

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Yeah, if that's the case, why is there a Los Santos biker gang then? he pretty much moved on from that biking thing, wouldn't make sense unless TLAD is non canon which I do believe, it would also explain why he has a relation to drugs in 4 and 5 but not in TLAD.

3 hours ago, Smash Bandicoot said:

Uh, Johnny being redesigned in TLAD, being addicted to drugs and a drug dealer sometimes but not others, etc.

They're not continuity errors, but mere progressions of his character, since GTA V was set five years later and the man had changed. Granted though, it was an absolutely horrible change in which I recently made in an in-depth post on another thread about why it was such a disrespectful writing choice towards Johnny and why it didn't work as a decision in both the game itself and the greater lore of the GTA series. Also, it's not really on you to decide whether The Lost and Damned is canon. It is canon, and it's not a case of belief, it's a case of accepting that or denying it. But TLAD is definitely canon, which to me makes Johnny's death worse.

 

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TBOGT is different in theming than the other 2, and there's nothing wrong with that, my only complaint with TBOGT is that it should've been a full game, not a DLC.

Well, as a matter of fact, I'd agree with you there. Being thematically different is fine, and it's one of the things that makes it better than The Lost and Damned in my opinion. I wouldn't say it should've been a full game since it is technically an expansion of the GTA IV storyline, but it's nothing short of an amazing DLC, even back then. I only wish it could've had time to be a lot longer.

 

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Umberto is never once mentioned after his missions, he was like a family member to Tommy and Tommy just erased him off his memory, same with Mitch Baker, became sort of like a family, did many things for him then pretty much ditched him.

What did you expect to happen? Tommy did his work for them and became allies, but at that point they had no part to play in the story. They weren't like family to him either, there is no indication of that. You could just as well argue that CJ ditched Woozie because he just left Las Venturas and never went back, but we don't argue that because he was still an ally he made along the way. 

 

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Oh, yeah, don't forget that Tommy might've never killed Lance if they ran away in the mission "Cop Land", and Lance literally did a dangerous job and risked his life in that mission.

That quite honestly was the least Lance could do after such a bad mistake he made going after Diaz and showing himself to be so useless in Bar Brawl. Even if you could argue that he made up for it in Cop Land, there was still no point in which he was treated unfairly by Tommy. He was allowed to stay despite his serious mistakes, and he was given a position of power despite being considerably less useful than he should've been for such a position.  

Edited July 10, 2020 by Grotti Vigilante

[GTA-Biker]

I haven't really noticed many people talking negatively about SA,at least no more than GTA 3, VC, 4, 5 and other titles in the series (in fact,I've noticed way more people complaining about GTA 5 and Online than SA).I myself love SA,it may not have the best story and its graphics are now outdated,but it still has the most fun gameplay and it's my favorite GTA game.

As for TBOGT,I guess it's because the game doesn't have a dark and serious tone like GTA 4 and TLAD,despite being set in the same location and time as them and featuring many of the same characters.Instead of some gritty criminal with a tragic story the protagonist is a party dude who works at a nightclub who's story has a happy ending,and the game features stuff like SWAT tanks, gold attack helicopters, full auto shotguns with explosive ammo and other stuff that you don't see in the other two,which makes it feel inconsistent with them.

[Smash Bandicoot]

2 hours ago, RenegadeAngel said:

The only thing funnier than such ridiculous questions is when people seriously answer them. I f*cking died reading this thread!

Excuse me, Mr Nostalgia?

[Grotti Vigilante]

4 hours ago, RenegadeAngel said:

The only thing funnier than such ridiculous questions is when people seriously answer them. I f*cking died reading this thread!

Hey, don't judge us! Who doesn't love taking part in a good old classic internet argument? 

[Grotti Vigilante]

1 hour ago, RenegadeAngel said:

No worries my man, I indulge in it myself once in a while!

Remind me to give you a shout one day then

Edited July 11, 2020 by Grotti Vigilante