A Defense of John’s Hair

[FoxSites]

Please try to be civil this topic isn’t mean’t to be super rage filled, this topic is mean’t for talking about the heavily talked about choice in a different light.

John Marston is one of those characters that immediately upon the release of Red Dead Redemption become a iconic character. A character so iconic that he frequently made lists as one of the best and most badass characters in not only Rockstar’s history but also in the history of gaming. Then in 2018 the long awaited sequel arrived where another character had been revealed to fill the shoes of the previous protagonist, he had a lot to live up but somehow this character was so well received that many would argue he surpassed him. But either way most agreed that after a certain event John Marston the character we play in the epilogue to the universal acclaimed sequel didn’t look right. We’ve all heard it before it’s tough to anywhere on the Red Dead Redemption 2 section without hearing about it. People are really angry about this and I 100% agree with them but how about we try and step away from all that for a second, look at the bright side and think for a second? Because  there is so much negativity surrounding this issue that I think it would be good to try and look at it from a different angle and try to defend the choice Rockstar made.

 

First off I want to say I agree it would be amazing if they added John’s original hair for reasons that have already been stated many times, but there has already been a thousand topics about John’s hair many  even controversial so I thought it would be better to instead look at it from a different side for a second and try our best to understand Rockstar’s choice.

 

Here are some of possible reasons for why Rockstar might’ve chose not to give John his classic hairstyle. 

1. Simplicity, the way the hair in game is listed when going to the barber wouldn’t  allow the player to select John’s hairstyle without adding another option. But if they did this that would mean Arthur would be left out of an option and if they give John’s hairstyle to Arthur I‘m not sure that he would look quite right. Instead if they replaced a hair length with John’s original style I think it would be strange to somehow go from a similar looking hair length to a fairly different looking one later, plus there is still the issue of Arthur not looking quite right.
2. John looks too young, I’ve seen pictures of John with his original hair in the epilogue either though in game photos or mods and maybe it’s just me but he looks really young with his haircut I don’t know how because in the original red dead redemption he looks his age but maybe that’s because of the graphics or maybe his face in general. Like I said maybe it’s just me and maybe it’s because they didn’t bother to adjust it.

3. Story reasons, John wants to be a family man now and finally decided he didn’t want his terribly kept (but cool looking) hair to get in his way. I’m really not sure why years later in 1911 he suddenly wanted his old hair back for some reason or how exactly he‘s taking care of his hair when he’s been working in a ranch for months but I still think it’s plausible.

4. It’s really buggy, Maybe Rockstar tried to implement John’s original hair but then decided it was way too buggy and not worth it to implement. if you think about it Arthur's hair is a very different type of hair to John’s and maybe they had a lot of trouble trying to put it into the game or keep it from working without it being buggy or just not looking right.

 

This was my attempt at trying to defend Rockstar’s decision to not add John’s original classic hair, I still agree that I prefer John with his original look but there is so much negativity that I thought it would be good to look at the issue from a different angle.

 

Also I think it would be great if others could add what they think and other reasons why John’s hair wasn’t added to the game.

 

Edit: Sorry this is so long, I didn’t realize how long this really was until now.

Edited July 3, 2020 by FoxSites

[VenusianDream]

I think people are making too much of a big deal over John's hair. He's not supposed to look like how he did in the first game, he's younger and skinnier and he cuts his hair to keep his identity hidden. As for why he has long hair again in Red Dead Redemption 1, he's a bounty hunter now working for the government so there wouldn't be any need to hide his identity anymore.

[FoxSites]

2 minutes ago, VenusianDream said:

I think people are making too much of a big deal over John's hair. He's not supposed to look like how he did in the first game, he's younger and skinnier and he cuts his hair to keep his identity hidden. As for why he has long hair again in Red Dead Redemption 1, he's a bounty hunter now working for the government so there wouldn't be any need to hide his identity anymore.

There is a lot of people who seem really angry about it, while I do prefer his classic hair and I understand why people want his original hair back I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as some people think it is.

[DanceKino]

To be honest, the only issue I have with John's hair is the wrong color. Only one hairstyle got it right for some odd reason, but others look absolutely terrible just because of that.

 

I'd much rather have his body fixed, like revert it to its 1.00 state plus make the shoulders less broad and make his neck more thin/NPC John style.

 

Wonder why did they made his clean shaven beard more lighter... if they wanted to make him look older, they should've done the opposite, like in 1.00 whereas his clean shaven style is slightly more grown version of his Chapter 6 NPC beard.

 

They also moved his ears, but it might've been done because it clipped with some hats/Arthur's wigs; if former is the case here, then it's fine.

 

Oh and also nothing is more annoying to see than John with Arthur's facial expressions. Try to climb most of the game's stairs such as the ones in Valentine's Hotel or Saint Denis's saloon and pay attention to John's face when he's climbing them... I wanna punch that face when he copies these Arthur's expressions.

Or try to walk in a swamp/lake, during sandstorm/heavy rain and pay attention to John's facial expressions... can you feel Arthur inside him?

Another annoying little thing is how he tries to pose like Arthur in camp, it's like he's trying to copy him. Dude, grow up, he's dead. No point in trying to copy your dead friend in almost every way possible.

 

There's also these f*cked-up huge and oversized or just texture quality DownGraded clothes such as the Cowboy Outfit or the Rancher for no reason.

4 hours ago, FoxSites said:

4. It’s really buggy, Maybe Rockstar tried to implement John’s original hair but then decided it was way too buggy and not worth it to implement. if you think about it Arthur's hair is a very different type of hair to John’s and maybe they had a lot of trouble trying to put it into the game or keep it from working without it being buggy or just not looking right.

The actual hairstyle doesn't have much issues/bugs, the ones it does are usually shared with other length 6-7 hairstyle issues/bugs.

Edited July 3, 2020 by DanceKino

[Red_hot_redemption]

I would much rater they fix the day night cycle so it doesn't go from day to night in a matter of seconds or the instant weather changers so it won't go from sun to thunderstorms to sunny again in 2 minutes. These are more important to me thank hair which is under a hat

[Mysterious hero]

For some reason, I really like his default haircut and beard in the epilogue. I don't know why honestly.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Mysterious hero

[TheLastOutlaw1911]

I cant stand the hair personally, I'm not sure why R* cant even add just his NPC style as an option when you have level 7 or something (also It being jet black doesn't help). But anyway I believe that the hair is just one of many issues with Johns epilogue model and together it all adds up to a sh*tty looking John. The facial hair being bleached, his body being changed to Arthurs, and the facial animations being reused from Arthur are some of the worst offenders.  

 

It doesn't help that the cowboy and rancher outfits are not accurate to RDR1 and the gloves and pants on the cowboy outfit have been made worse with updates. Overall I really don't care for John in the epilogue my naïve self hopes that R* might make some improvements in future updates or on the next gen should it be re released, but I know that probably won't happen. At least we will have the R* editor eventually 

[Red_hot_redemption]

Yeah, for me the massive gloves are a bigger issue 

[LittleJesus]

I agree, bald John Marston should be his canon look at the Epilogue, best way to keep his identity hidden.

[FoxSites]

7 hours ago, DanceKino said:

To be honest, the only issue I have with John's hair is the wrong color. Only one hairstyle got it right for some odd reason, but others look absolutely terrible just because of that.

 

I'd much rather have his body fixed, like revert it to its 1.00 state plus make the shoulders less broad and make his neck more thin/NPC John style.

 

Wonder why did they made his clean shaven beard more lighter... if they wanted to make him look older, they should've done the opposite, like in 1.00 whereas his clean shaven style is slightly more grown version of his Chapter 6 NPC beard.

 

They also moved his ears, but it might've been done because it clipped with some hats/Arthur's wigs; if former is the case here, then it's fine.

 

Oh and also nothing is more annoying to see than John with Arthur's facial expressions. Try to climb most of the game's stairs such as the ones in Valentine's Hotel or Saint Denis's saloon and pay attention to John's face when he's climbing them... I wanna punch that face when he copies these Arthur's expressions.

Or try to walk in a swamp/lake, during sandstorm/heavy rain and pay attention to John's facial expressions... can you feel Arthur inside him?

Another annoying little thing is how he tries to pose like Arthur in camp, it's like he's trying to copy him. Dude, grow up, he's dead. No point in trying to copy your dead friend in almost every way possible.

 

There's also these f*cked-up huge and oversized or just texture quality DownGraded clothes such as the Cowboy Outfit or the Rancher for no reason.

The actual hairstyle doesn't have much issues/bugs, the ones it does are usually shared with other length 6-7 hairstyle issues/bugs.

Yeah I think it’s pretty clear Rockstar didn’t put a whole lot of work into John I appreciate some of the changes that are there but it’s a huge step backwards. Say what you want about GTA 5 but they did a very good job with diversity on each character like I said this feels like a step backwards but I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as others make it, in my opinion you would have to pick out details (noticeable ones but I still think he looks OK anyway) to understand why John doesn’t look right, if you don’t really think about it I think he looks fine.

[t-p-d-a]

Johns Haircut can be locked for Arthur.. like the extra clean shave for Arthur in the first chapters

it's just a value 0 in the chp. 1 - 6.

 

 

and Johns Outfit is also not avaible for Arthur-

Edited July 3, 2020 by t-p-d-a

[FoxSites]

3 minutes ago, t-p-d-a said:

Johns Haircut can be locked for Arthur.. like the extra clean shave for Arthur in the first chapters

it's just a value 0 in the chp. 1 - 6.

 

 

and Johns Outfit is also not avaible for Arthur-

Agreed but I also think that would leave out a hairstyle for Arthur maybe the reason they did this was to have the player keep all hairstyles for both characters. That would mean they would probably want to add another exclusive hairstyle to Arthur which I think would be really cool but I don’t know maybe they wanted their hairstyles exactly the same for some reason.

[Darealbandicoot]

45 minutes ago, FoxSites said:

Agreed but I also think that would leave out a hairstyle for Arthur maybe the reason they did this was to have the player keep all hairstyles for both characters. That would mean they would probably want to add another exclusive hairstyle to Arthur which I think would be really cool but I don’t know maybe they wanted their hairstyles exactly the same for some reason.

John has a different looking beard to Arthur and its the correct dark brown color as well so saying they didn't want to leave out a hairstyle doesn't really make sense. 

 

 

What they did Is inexcusable IMO and the fact that they made the hair black and left parted defies all logic. 

[Holphino]

15 hours ago, FoxSites said:

Please try to be civil this topic isn’t mean’t to be super rage filled, this topic is mean’t for talking about the heavily talked about choice in a different light.

John Marston is one of those characters that immediately upon the release of Red Dead Redemption become a iconic character. A character so iconic that he frequently made lists as one of the best and most badass characters in not only Rockstar’s history but also in the history of gaming. Then in 2018 the long awaited sequel arrived where another character had been revealed to fill the shoes of the previous protagonist, he had a lot to live up but somehow this character was so well received that many would argue he surpassed him. But either way most agreed that after a certain event John Marston the character we play in the epilogue to the universal acclaimed sequel didn’t look right. We’ve all heard it before it’s tough to anywhere on the Red Dead Redemption 2 section without hearing about it. People are really angry about this and I 100% agree with them but how about we try and step away from all that for a second, look at the bright side and think for a second? Because  there is so much negativity surrounding this issue that I think it would be good to try and look at it from a different angle and try to defend the choice Rockstar made.

 

First off I want to say I agree it would be amazing if they added John’s original hair for reasons that have already been stated many times, but there has already been a thousand topics about John’s hair many  even controversial so I thought it would be better to instead look at it from a different side for a second and try our best to understand Rockstar’s choice.

 

Here are some of possible reasons for why Rockstar might’ve chose not to give John his classic hairstyle. 

1. Simplicity, the way the hair in game is listed when going to the barber wouldn’t  allow the player to select John’s hairstyle without adding another option. But if they did this that would mean Arthur would be left out of an option and if they give John’s hairstyle to Arthur I‘m not sure that he would look quite right. Instead if they replaced a hair length with John’s original style I think it would be strange to somehow go from a similar looking hair length to a fairly different looking one later, plus there is still the issue of Arthur not looking quite right.
2. John looks too young, I’ve seen pictures of John with his original hair in the epilogue either though in game photos or mods and maybe it’s just me but he looks really young with his haircut I don’t know how because in the original red dead redemption he looks his age but maybe that’s because of the graphics or maybe his face in general. Like I said maybe it’s just me and maybe it’s because they didn’t bother to adjust it.

3. Story reasons, John wants to be a family man now and finally decided he didn’t want his terribly kept (but cool looking) hair to get in his way. I’m really not sure why years later in 1911 he suddenly wanted his old hair back for some reason or how exactly he‘s taking care of his hair when he’s been working in a ranch for months but I still think it’s plausible.

4. It’s really buggy, Maybe Rockstar tried to implement John’s original hair but then decided it was way too buggy and not worth it to implement. if you think about it Arthur's hair is a very different type of hair to John’s and maybe they had a lot of trouble trying to put it into the game or keep it from working without it being buggy or just not looking right.

 

This was my attempt at trying to defend Rockstar’s decision to not add John’s original classic hair, I still agree that I prefer John with his original look but there is so much negativity that I thought it would be good to look at the issue from a different angle.

 

Also I think it would be great if others could add what they think and other reasons why John’s hair wasn’t added to the game.

 

Edit: Sorry this is so long, I didn’t realize how long this really was until now.

I understand that you want to bring some positivity to the community, but I don't see how defending the way John looks does that. You gotta understand where all the criticism comes from. Most of the people(or at least the people I talk to)criticizing Rockstar and their decision to f*ck up John's model are die hard fans like myself, and the majority of these people still love Red Dead 2. Alot of us are just disappointed that John looks almost nothing like himself, and personally I feel like it robs the Epilogue of that feeling of "f*ck yeah! I'm John Marston again baby!" that I feel like Rockstar was trying to capture. It's not all bad of course, I like the fan service moments: like the sawed off shotgun pose, the various remixes of tracks from the RDR1 OST, John not being able to swim is a nice callback to RDR1's mechanics, and lastly I like that John actually has different animations for walking, jogging, and running. Hell I even like the Epilogue's story for the most part, but i'm always taken out of the moment every time I get a good look at John. His hair isn't the only issue, but it does make a pretty big difference in my opinion. Below is an image I captured in-game using a recently released mod, and I personally feel like it's a considerable improvement.

Of course his model is still far from perfect, but just giving him his own hairstyle makes a noticable difference. If you disagree then that's fine, but to me vanilla playable John will never look this good.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Holphino

[FoxSites]

2 hours ago, Holphino said:

I understand that you want to bring some positivity to the community, but I don't see how defending the way John looks does that. You gotta understand where all the criticism comes from. Most of the people(or at least the people I talk to)criticizing Rockstar and their decision to f*ck up John's model are die hard fans like myself, and the majority of these people still love Red Dead 2. Alot of us are just disappointed that John looks almost nothing like himself, and personally I feel like it robs the Epilogue of that feeling of "f*ck yeah! I'm John Marston again baby!" that I feel like Rockstar was trying to capture. It's not all bad of course, I like the fan service moments: like the sawed off shotgun pose, the various remixes of tracks from the RDR1 OST, John not being able to swim is a nice callback to RDR1's mechanics, and lastly I like that John actually has different animations for walking, jogging, and running. Hell I even like the Epilogue's story for the most part, but i'm always taken out of the moment every time I get a good look at John. His hair isn't the only issue, but it does make a pretty big difference in my opinion. Below is an image I captured in-game using a recently released mod, and I personally feel like it's a considerable improvement.

Of course his model is still far from perfect, but just giving him his own hairstyle makes a noticable difference. If you disagree then that's fine, but to me vanilla playable John will never look this good.

Well I guess I felt that people were making such a big deal of it that it was leaving me thinking about it every time I played as John in the epilogue and I agree with everyone 100% I prefer John with his original hair. But I also think that some people are making a bigger deal out of it than it actually is, I was thinking maybe if you don’t think about it and look at the situation from a different side then the epilogue would feel so much better, so I guess this is my attempt for people to actually try and enjoy the epilogue more. You made some very good points that I don’t hear a lot of people really talking about saying how “it’s not all bad” or how there are plenty of things that are redeeming about the situation. The original Red Dead Redemption has something kinda similar with Jack except people weren’t as angry about that because Jack wasn’t a established character (the reason some don’t like playing as him) but Rockstar even back then made similar choices with the first game, so this issue dates back a while. Personally I think it was great how John had different lines for many of the things in game such as stranger missions and such plus with the other differences John does have from Arthur like deadeye plus other things. Guess I felt a change of pace would be good and possibly try and attempt to increase the enjoyment of the epilogue for some people.

Edited July 3, 2020 by FoxSites

[kubon352]

It ain't like that we are gonna cut ourself because of some fictional character, no way.

But, we'd like to see him again in his glorious stylisation, as we used to see him in the past. That's where all the fuss is going from.

I'm quite okay with the current look of him, his hairs ain't that bad, I got used to them anyway, but would be better to have them different. Anyway, hair are just one of the problems of John's model, but very noticeable.

 

Rockstar's been working on this game for around 10 years already, they could've fix all of our concerns by now. I guess they don't want to admit that they were wrong all the time, that's why they pretend there's no problem.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Kubigz

[FoxSites]

1 hour ago, Kubigz said:

It ain't like that we are gonna cut ourself because of some fictional character, no way.

But, we'd like to see him again in his glorious stylisation, as we used to see him in the past. That's where all the fuss is going from.

I'm quite okay with the current look of him, his hairs ain't that bad, I got used to them anyway, but would be better to have them different. Anyway, hair are just one of the problems of John's model, but very noticeable.

 

Rockstar's been working on this game for around 10 years already, they could've fix all of our concerns by now. I guess they don't want to admit that they were wrong all the time, that's why they pretend nothing's wrong.

I couldn’t agree more, but there are many people that are very angry about it, while I 100% agree and want John’s hair back I don’t think it’s the end of the world like some make it seem.

[IzzyBlues]

Did we really need a second thread for this topic?