George Floyd

[REVENGE777]

2 minutes ago, Standard Deluxe 59 said:

So violence with violence that has only gotten worse in cities that have either rolled back their police force numbers or have begun cutting funding to their departments is a lesson learned? Causing millions of dollars in property damage from theft and vandalism along with making innocent people the victims of said damage and theft is somehow a lesson? Because of the actions of a very small minority of police officers, it's okay to take out those frustrations on other people, who had nothing to do with the incident at hand, taking out frustrations on their businesses, their possessions, their livelihoods, that's okay to you? 

It’s what happened. It was the direct consequence of what those officers did, was it not? I honestly don’t give a f*ck about the property damages. They’ll recover and they’ll be fine. That’s what insurance is for. 

 

If they don’t want people to riot in the streets, then maybe they should think twice before killing people in the street.

[sivispacem]

17 minutes ago, Standard Deluxe 59 said:

So violence with violence that has only gotten worse in cities that have either rolled back their police force numbers or have begun cutting funding to their departments is a lesson learned?

Is there actually any evidence at all to suggest this is the case?

[Slappy212]

11 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

The violence stops when the brutality stops. Let this be a lesson learned.

Sounds like some cheap mafioso threat, lol. The cops are never going to be perfect, especially in America, where there are far more guns than people, high crime, huge gun market, light regulation and frankly not enough training for cops. I'm afraid everyone will have to obey the law unless they want to make things worse. The only way it'll change is through peaceful demonstration and legislation. If you want to advocate for thuggery and rioting you do so at the risk of escalation. We need laws that properly punish and track offenders in the police force, better training and hiring practices, eliminating dangerous protocol like no knock warrants etc.  

[Standard Deluxe 59]

7 hours ago, sivispacem said:

Is there actually any evidence at all to suggest this is the case?

Perhaps it's still too early to fully correlate the crime waves occurring in cities like Chicago and NYC with recent city decisions to roll back how many officers they have on patrol along with plummeting morale among departments as some cities begin to plan police budget cuts. That being said, with crime rates rising to near or record highs in many cities where the local leadership has largely sided against their police, I believe that in time there will be a defined correlation between crime rates and defunding police departments. 

 

8 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

It’s what happened. It was the direct consequence of what those officers did, was it not?

So screw everyone else right? Who cares if those caught up in the chaos lose their way of life. We gotta punish everyone, even when they're on your side. 

8 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

I honestly don’t give a f*ck about the property damages.

I bet you wouldn't be saying that if you, your family or someone you know lost their business or had anything of theirs torched to the ground. 

 

8 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

They’ll recover and they’ll be fine. That’s what insurance is for.

That's a blatantly ignorant statement. Many of the small businesses caught up in the chaos don't have insurance or if they do it's the bare minimum and isn't "full coverage" which even then still won't cover the entire damage costs. In many other cases, the owners of these businesses usually don't have the means to recover from such calamities, insurance or not. Many people pour their life savings into starting their small businesses and many of those businesses don't even have more than enough cash on hand to get through a couple weeks' expenses. The big department and name brand stores will recover, but many of them will probably think twice about reopening a store that was torched and looted. 

 

8 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

If they don’t want people to riot in the streets, then maybe they should think twice before killing people in the street.

Yeah because those damn business owners are always killing people in the streets right? That's why we gotta punish them too. 

[sivispacem]

31 minutes ago, Standard Deluxe 59 said:

Perhaps it's still too early to fully correlate the crime waves occurring in cities like Chicago and NYC with recent city decisions to roll back how many officers they have on patrol 

I'm not sure these do even correlate with the recent protests; in both cases the uptick in violence predates changes to police funding. Chicago has had issues with violent crime rates for a couple of years ago and crime rates in NYC were elevated in previous months (May/June) too despite predating changes that took place primarily in July. 

[Standard Deluxe 59]

27 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

I'm not sure these do even correlate with the recent protests; in both cases the uptick in violence predates changes to police funding. Chicago has had issues with violent crime rates for a couple of years ago and crime rates in NYC were elevated in previous months (May/June) too despite predating changes that took place primarily in July. 

While true that crime rates had been increasing prior to recent riots, it does appear that since July, crime rates have soared with NYC already having more shootings by the beginning of August than they had in the entirety of 2019. 

 

https://nypost.com/2020/08/02/there-have-now-been-more-nyc-shootings-this-year-than-in-all-of-2019/

[MyNameIsNotImportantBro]

13 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

I honestly don’t give a f*ck about the property damages

Not giving a f*ck about the property damages is actually the most American thing I have ever saw.

 

13 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

They’ll recover and they’ll be fine. That’s what insurance is for. 

It's not easy to do that, it will cost a lot of money.

 

13 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

then maybe they should think twice before killing people in the street.

God, why are you blaming the whole cops in the U.S? I agree with you, killing the guy wasn't necessary, but burning down businesses...killing people for having different opinion...that's something I will not agree with.  

 

 

Of course you "KEKW" my comment, I'm not surprised actually 

Edited August 22, 2020 by OmarMohammed

[REVENGE777]

Y’all don’t gotta agree with what I say, and you don’t have to think what’s happening is right, but I’m just letting y’all know what’s going to continue to happen. It’s not a cheap threat, it’s the reality of the world we live in. Police keep killing people in the street and destruction will ensue in the streets. The police never get held accountable. People get their sh*t destroyed for something that wasn’t their fault, but that’s part of it. peaceful protests and useless  legislation has done little for the betterment of black people. But regardless, More silence, more coffins. 

[MyNameIsNotImportantBro]

14 minutes ago, SonofLosSantos said:

Y’all don’t gotta agree with what I say, and you don’t have to think what’s happening is right, but I’m just letting y’all know what’s going to continue to happen. It’s not a cheap threat, it’s the reality of the world we live in. Police keep killing people in the street and destruction will ensue in the streets. The police never get held accountable. People get their sh*t destroyed for something that wasn’t their fault, but that’s part of it. peaceful protests and useless  legislation has done little for the betterment of black people. But regardless, More silence, more coffins. 

So you want these people to appear in your country?, Since you hate the army and the police.

[REVENGE777]

55 minutes ago, OmarMohammed said:

So you want these people to appear in your country?, Since you hate the army and the police.

Who said I hate anyone? And also, I don’t know who those people are. We got armed goons and terrorists all over the US. I grew up in the Atlanta projects and lived on the south side of Chicago. No foreign threats can compare to dealing with that sh*t so whatever point you’re trying to make isn’t moving me.

[Lonely-Martin]

16 hours ago, Standard Deluxe 59 said:

So violence with violence that has only gotten worse in cities that have either rolled back their police force numbers or have begun cutting funding to their departments is a lesson learned? Causing millions of dollars in property damage from theft and vandalism along with making innocent people the victims of said damage and theft is somehow a lesson? Because of the actions of a very small minority of police officers, it's okay to take out those frustrations on other people, who had nothing to do with the incident at hand, taking out frustrations on their businesses, their possessions, their livelihoods, that's okay to you? 

 

Pretty embarrassing to see an unjust murder be used to justify unjust murders and destruction. Completely undermines the cause, and it's weak as f*ck. The police kill some chap and that means the general public must suffer? That's pathetic!

 

History has clearly shown on many occasions that violence against the general public after poor policing hasn't done anything to help black people. Otherwise there would have been progress with policing after LA '92/Rodney King or other well documented violent outbursts, and George may still be alive and these issues wouldn't still persist nearly 30 years later.

 

It's clear that doesn't work at all and if anything, only furthers issues as people who have family members lives destroyed or they're outright killed by violent thugs only grow more resentful to those who mindlessly kill and destroy their lives. 

[REVENGE777]

38 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

 

Pretty embarrassing to see an unjust murder be used to justify unjust murders and destruction. Completely undermines the cause, and it's weak as f*ck. The police kill some chap and that means the general public must suffer? That's pathetic!

 

History has clearly shown on many occasions that violence against the general public after poor policing hasn't done anything to help black people. Otherwise there would have been progress with policing after LA '92/Rodney King or other well documented violent outbursts, and George may still be alive and these issues wouldn't still persist nearly 30 years later.

 

It's clear that doesn't work at all and if anything, only furthers issues as people who have family members lives destroyed or they're outright killed by violent thugs only grow more resentful to those who mindlessly kill and destroy their lives. 

So it’s not the fault of the police? Gotcha

[sivispacem]

11 hours ago, Standard Deluxe 59 said:

While true that crime rates had been increasing prior to recent riots, it does appear that since July, crime rates have soared with NYC already having more shootings by the beginning of August than they had in the entirety of 2019. 

 

https://nypost.com/2020/08/02/there-have-now-been-more-nyc-shootings-this-year-than-in-all-of-2019/

This sort of emphasises my point- that there's no correlation between violent crime rates and changes in police funding in NYC. If no correlation exists, then no causal link can either.

 

The figures for the one month since changes in police funding were instituted, July, show a continuation of a pre-existing trend from May and June. In fact, the month of May saw an increase in murder rates compared to 2019 (79%) significantly higher than that of July (50%).

 

8 hours ago, OmarMohammed said:

So you want these people to appear in your country?, Since you hate the army and the police.

This is amongst the stupidest non sequiturs I've ever seen. You can be critical of US law enforcement approaches, particularly the frequency of officer involved killings which are so high as to make the police killing rates of every other developed country look like a rounding error- without advocating for IS. 

[MyNameIsNotImportantBro]

9 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

Who said I hate anyone?

From your previous comments, its clearly that you hate them, but hey I could care less right now.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by OmarMohammed

[REVENGE777]

16 minutes ago, OmarMohammed said:

From your previous comments, its clearly that you hate them, but hey I could care less right now.

 

I can support things and still be extremely critical of aspects of it, pertaining to the military. As far as law enforcement, it’s beyond just simple petty emotions. It’s a whole system, trickling down with corruption and deceit all the way from the top of the chain of command (the president).

 

To say I “hate” the police... I don’t even think that’s an accurate word. I have strong distain for all facets of the law enforcement and criminal justice system, especially when Its occurring in circumstances personal to me.

 

I live in Kentucky, where Breonna Taylor was killed by police. My downstairs neighbor is breonnas first cousin. this is very very real to me, it’s not just the internet and what the media portrays, people where I’m from, including me, who look like me, people I interact with everyday, are in a higher statistical bracket to get abused by law enforcement, it’s a very surreal feeling. A lot of people have the comfort of not having these things be their reality. I have no such comfort.

[Lonely-Martin]

8 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

So it’s not the fault of the police? Gotcha

Are you being daft or what? Where did I even elude to it not being the police's fault? Obviously it was the police that are at fault for killing George or beating Rodney, behave!

 

I (very clearly) said that taking it out on the general public for what the police do to black people in these tragic incidents historically has shown us that policing never improved to better black lives going forward. You say the peaceful approach doesn't help, but neither does the violence and destruction against the general public.

 

It was the police that killed George or beat Rodney (and other crimes), yet the public are being targeted. Supporting that approach is backward and has no logic. Be angry at the police, demand change of course, but killing and destroying lives of those that had no hand in these awful crimes makes no sense whatsoever. It's weak.

[sivispacem]

3 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Supporting that approach is backward and has no logic.

Very few do "support" rioting and looting, though. We're taking about outlier of outliers here.

 

There's a difference between not caring about property damage and supporting looting. I don't care if people beat up Nazis in the street (and nor I would think do most people) but I wouldn't say I "support" it. 

 

To an extent rioting and looting is symptomatic of wider socioeconomic issues. It tends to occur when relations between social groups break down; economically disadvantaged and socially oppressed groups lashing out. That's not an excusing of it, it's simply an explanation of why it occurs. Contrary to common belief it's not because groups of low level criminals fancy grabbing themselves some new sneakers, though it's unquestionable that some people do use it as an opportunity to individually profit. However for most participants it's not a rational action- it's a knee-jerk against inequality and perceived oppression.

[Lonely-Martin]

12 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Very few do "support" rioting and looting, though. We're taking about outlier of outliers here.

 

There's a difference between not caring about property damage and supporting looting. I don't care if people beat up Nazis in the street (and nor I would think do most people) but I wouldn't say I "support" it. 

 

To an extent rioting and looting is symptomatic of wider socioeconomic issues. It tends to occur when relations between social groups break down; economically disadvantaged and socially oppressed groups lashing out. That's not an excusing of it, it's simply an explanation of why it occurs. Contrary to common belief it's not because groups of low level criminals fancy grabbing themselves some new sneakers, though it's unquestionable that some people do use it as an opportunity to individually profit. However for most participants it's not a rational action- it's a knee-jerk against inequality and perceived oppression.

The same could be said of anyone not vocal or showing their support/understanding regarding the whole BLM movement too. Their 'silence' is often percieved as or used against them as a sign of supporting oppression or racism, which just isn't always true, yet that's used as a reason to accept or in some cases, support the violence occouring. Just like shown here...

 

17 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

But regardless, More silence, more coffins. 

... If people choose to not be vocal and maybe quietly support the cause, like with donations and such, those people are perceived as 'silently supporting oppression/racism' and therefore, could end up being killed or have their lives destroyed as their business is ruined, which can lead to them stopping their support. History teaches us this will not work.

 

By being vocally 'not bothered' by the destruction or even murders, it is as likely to be perceived as support for those crimes as it is when someone doesn't go out of their way to peacefully demonstrate against these issues or vocally show support in other ways. It's a vicious cycle.

 

Anyway, my main point was how the other chap could interpret what I said initially as me saying the cops weren't to blame for their actions. That was a cheap low blow that I find in poor taste to instigate a poor reaction. I'll not respond to his posts further through fear of my comments being deliberately misinterpreted into whatever he was trying for there. I'm no racist nor supporting murdering police nor looking to shift blame. Those cops that do kill like this fully deserve to suffer the consequences of the law.

 

I felt I needed to be clear on my opinion there, sorry for the ramble.

[sivispacem]

2 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

The same could be said of anyone not vocal or showing their support/understanding regarding the whole BLM movement too. 

I don't think that's true. All polling suggests that a majority of Americans support the movement or its ideals; but we haven't seen this majority out on the streets.

[Lonely-Martin]

3 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

I don't think that's true. All polling suggests that a majority of Americans support the movement or its ideals; but we haven't seen this majority out on the streets.

You highlight my point if the polls are true (I've not looked, though not asking for sources mind you. I don't doubt you).

 

That majority you mention that isn't out on the streets and showing support can therefore be seen as 'silent' by those that are out there being violent and rioting, even though chances are they do actually support the movement or its ideals and is going to lead to more coffins or destroyed businesses/lives, exactly what the other chap is suggesting will happen.

 

Killing potential supporters and destroying their businesses just seems wrong to me. I fail to see how it can help to be angry at the policing but taking it out on the potentially supporting public.

[sivispacem]

25 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

and is going to lead to more coffins 

How many people do you actually think have been killed by rioters or looters? 

[Lonely-Martin]

13 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

How many people do you actually think have been killed by rioters or looters? 

No clue, but any more than zero is just not on. I'm just seeing comments like 'more coffins' as an obvious reference that there have been some.

 

If there's been none, good. But there has been destruction which I feel is also a negative and again, history shows that doesn't work in getting the police to treat black people any fairer.

[sivispacem]

1 hour ago, Lonely-Martin said:

No clue

The isn't it rather presumptuous to make throwaway comments about death tolls when by your own admission you have no idea whether anyone has actually been killed by rioters or looters at all?

[Lonely-Martin]

9 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

The isn't it rather presumptuous to make throwaway comments about death tolls when by your own admission you have no idea whether anyone has actually been killed by rioters or looters at all?

Maybe, but I'm not alone on that as the 'more coffins' post is just as presumptuous too. Luckily this is the general chat section and not the debates and discussions section. I'm keeping it general.

 

But I will say, when someone is saying 'more coffins' it is clear there has been issues of that nature. I just don't care to look into the details as it seems whatever I chat about here get misinterpreted anyway.

[sivispacem]

7 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

But I will say, when someone is saying 'more coffins' it is clear there has been issues of that nature.

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood that comment. By "more silence, more coffins", he doesn't meant that he advocates looters murder people until they actively speak in favour of BLM. He's simply pointing out that the longer people refrain from speaking out against police brutality, the more people will be killed by it.

[Lonely-Martin]

10 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood that comment. By "more silence, more coffins", he doesn't meant that he advocates looters murder people until they actively speak in favour of BLM. He's simply pointing out that the longer people refrain from speaking out against police brutality, the more people will be killed by it.

Entirely possible, true. I hadn't considered it that way. My mistake if so, though I'm not alone in that misinterpreting posts either. 

 

Maybe me and him both should learn to be more clear in our points to avoid it in future, though it makes no difference now as I'm not here to chat with him anyway but live and learn. Apologies if I did misinterpret that though, sorry about that.

On 8/22/2020 at 4:46 AM, SonofLosSantos said:

The violence stops when the brutality stops. Let this be a lesson learned.

Though with this comment and the coffins one, it was easy to misinterpret the point as here he's clearly suggesting violence will continue and it's a lesson learned with any destruction. But still, no excuses if I did misinterpret anything. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Lonely-Martin

[Smith John]

25 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Luckily this is the general chat section and not the debates and discussions section.

This is why I felt it 'safe' to make a sarcastic response to sivis, but he still felt the need to delete my comment. Oh well.

[Lonely-Martin]

Just now, Smith John said:

This is why I felt it 'safe' to make a sarcastic response to sivis, but he still felt the need to delete my comment. Oh well.

Though I hold my hands up and apologise if I have misunderstood any points previously made by others, it's all stuff that's getting us nowhere now but as I felt it is the general chat area, I could be more general.

 

It does feel I'm being held to a higher standard than others in here, but it is what it is. If I make a mistake, I can only put my hands up and say sorry in hope it helps bring more peaceful and pleasant chat going forward.

[Smith John]

You don't have to apologise for anything. sivispacem just doesn't like discussions going too far out of his narrative.

 

E. I may as well add something to keep the discussion going.

 

"He's simply pointing out that the longer people refrain from speaking out against police brutality"

 

The media literally speak about this on a daily basis at this point. Whose voices are being 'refrained' exactly?

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Smith John

[REVENGE777]

1 hour ago, sivispacem said:

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood that comment. By "more silence, more coffins", he doesn't meant that he advocates looters murder people until they actively speak in favour of BLM. He's simply pointing out that the longer people refrain from speaking out against police brutality, the more people will be killed by it.

Thank you. I didn’t think it needed to be explained, but you saved me the effort of having to clarify.