GTA 4 or Red Dead Redemption 2

[billiejoearmstrong8]

What you said about RDR2 is true but I do think GTA IV missions have a LOT more freedom than RDR2 (or RDR1 for that matter) missions. RDR missions are extremely tightly scripted and your movement is also very restricted due to nearly always having to follow/keep up with/stay near other characters the whole time, both when riding to locations and during gunfights and escapes etc. You don't really choose what to do, you're just guided through, and trying different things or deviating from the path they set out will usually get you a fail screen. Whereas in GTA IV you have much more choice about how to approach missions and what you do during them, you're usually alone or in control of a car with other characters inside (instead of following them on a horse) so you can set your own pace and go where you want etc, and trying new things/getting creative is not only allowed but often encouraged and/or rewarded. Certain aspects of physics and gameplay in general feel more "free" and less scripted as well.

 

You also aren't tied down by having to maintain appearance/horses/guns etc or nagged by other gang members if you don't do stuff when they want, there's no chores to do. And the wanted system doesn't include dumb vague reasons to become wanted like "disturbing the peace" that mean you can easily become wanted by accident for things like accidentally walking into someone (RDR1 didn't have that, no idea why they thought it was a good idea to bring over the too strict and too easily triggered by accident wanted system thing from GTA V when it's one of the worst things about that game).

 

They're different styles of game and both have many great things going for them. Like I've said I think if you happen to really value that freedom in gameplay IV can come out on top.

 

On 6/17/2021 at 2:08 AM, BabaFamilias said:

Micah is a way better villain than Dimitri, Faustin, Vlad or the other couple throwaway villains. The actor who portrayed him did a very good job in making you hate him. Arthur, John and Dutch don't get the Hollywood happy end that Niko gets.

 

 

 

 

Micah is great but I think Dimitri and Faustin (although Faustin isn't really a villain from Niko's perspective) are on a par with him, Faustin's acting especially is fantastic. And Micah is more of a one dimensional villian than Dimitri, as enjoyable as it is to hate him.

 

I have to question if you've actually played GTA IV through to the end with that last statement. Hollywood happy end?????? It's the most depressing ending of any GTA game. Either his cousin/closest friend or potential future life partner is killed in front of him because of his actions, he got his revenge but it meant nothing, he's empty inside and a broken man who vows to never get close to anyone again. It finishes with his deeply sarcastic quote "So this is what the dream feels like. This is the victory we longed for" before he makes way home alone while taking depressing phone calls from the deceased's loved ones. There's no upsides, no triumphant winning scene (instead his friend has to tell him "we won" while he stands there unconvinced) there is nothing happy about it. Also RDR2 does actually end on a happy note with John settling down on his ranch with his family (as long as you don't think about what will happen next lol), just saying . And this isn't the GTA IV forum btw.

Edited June 18, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[The Tracker]

15 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

And the wanted system doesn't include dumb vague reasons to become wanted like "disturbing the peace" that mean you can easily become wanted by accident for things like accidentally walking into someone

 

You don't get wanted for running into people in RDR2 

 

[billiejoearmstrong8]

36 minutes ago, The Tracker said:

 

You don't get wanted for running into people in RDR2 

 

 

You're right. But you can become wanted for vague/accidental reasons, moreso than in RDR1 or GTA IV where you pretty much always make the decision of whether to commit a crime and become wanted or not. In RDR1 you can't even get in trouble for fighting as long as you don't use a weapon, and ending up in trouble for defending yourself is much rarer. It just annoys me that "disturbing the peace" was added as a crime.

Edited June 18, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[BabaFamilias]

6 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I have to question if you've actually played GTA IV through to the end with that last statement. Hollywood happy end?????? It's the most depressing ending of any GTA game. Either his cousin/closest friend or potential future life partner is killed in front of him because of his actions, he got his revenge but it meant nothing, he's empty inside and a broken man who vows to never get close to anyone again. It finishes with his deeply sarcastic quote "So this is what the dream feels like. This is the victory we longed for" before he makes way home alone while taking depressing phone calls from the deceased's loved ones. There's no upsides, no triumphant winning scene (instead his friend has to tell him "we won" while he stands there unconvinced) there is nothing happy about it. Also RDR2 does actually end on a happy note with John settling down on his ranch with his family (as long as you don't think about what will happen next lol), just saying . And this isn't the GTA IV forum btw.

 

Play the end of GTA IV again, it isn't as depressing as you make it to be. His gf of couple days (?) dies, ok. What happens next? He gets his revenge, kills the bad guy and stands tall together with his friends as the credits roll (typical GTA ending). He still has his friends, can do stuff with them together after the game ends, etc. Roman and Mallorie get pregnant, Niko retires and becomes the good uncle. The only sad phone call he gets is from Packie. Kate doesn't even get a funeral or even a grave. Rockstar: "Niko's life partner dies? Sorry dawg, best I can do is a 20 sec phone call with Packie" Kate's death felt no sense of loss. 

 

Arthur dies alone and betrayed by his father figure. He doesn't get his revenge. The only thing he had in his last moments was that he knew he tried his best and had a last glance at the sun. Then they had to add an epilogue with a happy note. The players would have went nuts, if that was the end. 

 

6 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

What you said about RDR2 is true but I do think GTA IV missions have a LOT more freedom than RDR2 (or RDR1 for that matter) missions. RDR missions are extremely tightly scripted and your movement is also very restricted due to nearly always having to follow/keep up with/stay near other characters the whole time, both when riding to locations and during gunfights and escapes etc. You don't really choose what to do, you're just guided through, and trying different things or deviating from the path they set out will usually get you a fail screen. Whereas in GTA IV you have much more choice about how to approach missions and what you do during them, you're usually alone or in control of a car with other characters inside (instead of following them on a horse) so you can set your own pace and go where you want etc, and trying new things/getting creative is not only allowed but often encouraged and/or rewarded. Certain aspects of physics and gameplay in general feel more "free" and less scripted as well.

 

Yeah, that's the dilemma. Do you want "free" generic missions like "drive to A, kill X, drive to B" or "follow X, pick up A, escape the police". Or do you want more unique linear missions which are more strict. Both have their upsides and downsides. 

[billiejoearmstrong8]

51 minutes ago, BabaFamilias said:

 

Play the end of GTA IV again, it isn't as depressing as you make it to be. His gf of couple days (?) dies, ok. What happens next? He gets his revenge, kills the bad guy and stands tall together with his friends as the credits roll (typical GTA ending). He still has his friends, can do stuff with them together after the game ends, etc. Roman and Mallorie get pregnant, Niko retires and becomes the good uncle. The only sad phone call he gets is from Packie. Kate doesn't even get a funeral or even a grave. Rockstar: "Niko's life partner dies? Sorry dawg, best I can do is a 20 sec phone call with Packie" Kate's death felt no sense of loss. 

 

Arthur dies alone and betrayed by his father figure. He doesn't get his revenge. The only thing he had in his last moments was that he knew he tried his best and had a last glance at the sun. Then they had to add an epilogue with a happy note. The players would have went nuts, if that was the end. 

 

 

Yeah, that's the dilemma. Do you want "free" generic missions like "drive to A, kill X, drive to B" or "follow X, pick up A, escape the police". Or do you want more unique linear missions which are more strict. Both have their upsides and downsides. 

 

GTA IV is literally famous for having one of the most depressing endings in gaming (especially at the time). Thinking it's happy or that "So this is what the dream feels like. This is the victory we longed for"  are cheerful final words is certainly a unique perspective on it. 

 

Tbh I want both at this point, at Rockstar's level both should be delivered on. Missions can be unique and still allow for freedom once play begins, there isn't any need for the level of restriction in some missions. Amazing cutscenes and some spectacular set pieces in missions? That's great. But it shouldn't be necessary to remove the freedom to approach how you want, move how you want etc to the extent it sometimes is in RDR and GTA V. Every mission should include some good, free gameplay that allows you to enjoy the mechanics of the game and use your initiative, it shouldn't all just be linear and guided so that it might as well just be a cutscene.

 

But like, I'm not even saying RDR2's missions are bad. There's loads that are very enjoyable and that have great gameplay. I'm just saying that GTA IV's allow you an unprecedented amount of freedom (for GTA/Rockstar) and allow you to use your initiative a lot. So if someone's really into that, that's a good reason to prefer GTA IV.

Edited June 18, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[BabaFamilias]

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

GTA IV is literally famous for having one of the most depressing endings in gaming (especially at the time). Thinking it's happy or that "So this is what the dream feels like. This is the victory we longed for"  are cheerful final words is certainly a unique perspective on it. 

 

Like i said, the death of a NPC we only see in a couple of missions felt no sense of loss for me. It was great story at that time, but you don't want to tell me, it is better executed than RDR story. Just look at this scene: 

 

 

A former strong tough guy looking sick and defeated. This scene alone has more emotional impact than "So this is what the dream feels like". 

[billiejoearmstrong8]

3 hours ago, BabaFamilias said:

 

Like i said, the death of a NPC we only see in a couple of missions felt no sense of loss for me. It was great story at that time, but you don't want to tell me, it is better executed than RDR story. Just look at this scene: 

 

 

 

A former strong tough guy looking sick and defeated. This scene alone has more emotional impact than "So this is what the dream feels like". 

 

I'm not arguing that it's sadder than RDR2 lol. Just that it's sad. You can hang out with her and they have some rather poignant conversations and become closer (there's like 15 of them I think, plus drunk ones that are very revealing), so it can be more meaningful if you choose for it to be. I agree she should've been in the main storyline more so we'd care more about her and their relationship but even without that she represented a chance at finding a partner and having a happy normal life. With her death not only did he lose a rare person who he was able to relate to and talk about his traumatic experiences with, but it reaffirmed his belief that he's good for nothing and that he should never allow himself to get close to anyone (romantically or in friendship) again. The game finishes with him still suffering from all his trauma, getting revenge not giving him any of the satisfaction he was hoping for and only bringing him emptiness and more loss, with his only plan being to shut himself off from people.

 

It doesn't beat the sadness of Arthur's death but it's still pretty sad! Especially so in 2008 when you'd probably be expecting a GTA game to end with mansions and jets and running the city and a non happy ending was unheard of, and video game writing getting serious/deep was a much newer concept.

 

Also I love RDR2 and it's 100% valid to prefer it! Just saying there's also valid reasons to prefer GTA IV. I think probably most GTA IV fans enjoy RDR2, two quality games with very impressive attention to detail and great writing.

Edited June 18, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Zello]

6 hours ago, BabaFamilias said:

 

Like i said, the death of a NPC we only see in a couple of missions felt no sense of loss for me. It was great story at that time, but you don't want to tell me, it is better executed than RDR story. Just look at this scene: 

 

 

A former strong tough guy looking sick and defeated. This scene alone has more emotional impact than "So this is what the dream feels like". 

 

Did we play the same game?

 

Here's Niko sad that his cousin who was one of the main reasons why he came to the country is now dead mainly due to Niko's action and even after he killed Dimitri nothing is bringing Roman back.

[BabaFamilias]

8 minutes ago, Zello said:

Did we play the same game?

 

Here's Niko sad that his cousin who was one of the main reasons why he came to the country is now dead mainly due to Niko's action and even after he killed Dimitri nothing is bringing Roman back.

 

Ok, you are showing me a non canon ending. What are you trying to prove? He doesn't even look sad in that picture, it looks more like Little Jacob made a dad joke and Niko is giving him the "really?!"-look. 

[Zello]

Just now, BabaFamilias said:

 

Ok, you are showing me a non canon ending. What are you trying to prove? He doesn't even look sad in that picture, it looks more like Little Jacob made a dad joke and Niko is giving him the "really?!"-look. 

Deal is canon.

 

Why would Packie leave the city at the end of TBOGT if Kate was dead?

 

In Revenge he tells Niko he had to take care of his mom because Kate is dead and no one else is going to take care of her and Francis obviously won't. If Kate is alive after deal Packie can leave the city because Kate would be taking care of his mom.

 

In V he mentions Derrick's death don't you think he would have mentioned Kate's death too?

[BabaFamilias]

 

Here you see Roman as his friend on Lifeinvader which was created in 2010. The events in IV happen in 2008. How could you mess this up as a GTA IV fanboy?

 

Edit: Also at no point in GTA IV does Niko create a Lifeinvader profile, which means he must have registered after the events of IV.

Edited June 18, 2021 by BabaFamilias

[Zello]

11 minutes ago, BabaFamilias said:

 

Here you see Roman as his friend on Lifeinvader which was created in 2009. The events in IV happen in 2008. How could you mess this up as a GTA IV fanboy. 

 

Edit: Also at no point in GTA IV does Niko create a Lifeinvader profile, which means he must have registered after the events of IV.

People wish Dead people Happy birthday online all the time.

[BabaFamilias]

2 minutes ago, Zello said:

People wish Dead people Happy birthday online all the time.

 

Niko isn't an esoteric guy and goes completely against his character to choose the deal. But just switch GTA IV on and go search for "Lifeinvader" (use the computer in IV). You will find nothing, because it was created after the events of IV.

[Zello]

37 minutes ago, BabaFamilias said:

But just switch GTA IV on and go search for "Lifeinvader" (use the computer in IV). You will find nothing, because it was created after the events of IV.

Like I said people create pages for dead relatives all the time.

38 minutes ago, BabaFamilias said:

 

Niko isn't an esoteric guy and goes completely against his character to choose the deal. 

Niko changes throughout the story the Niko we got at the end of the story on Happiness Island was a different Niko than the one who came off the platypus. It depends how you interpret the Darko choice spare him and let him go or kill him. I spared Darko and Niko changes he says Revenge is not the answer so he decides to take a different choice with Dimitri and do the deal.

[BabaFamilias]

All your arguments are based on assumptions. Here are the facts:

- Lifeinvader didn't exist in 2008. 

- Niko and Roman both have a profile. 

- Packie is seen entering an airport at the end of Deal. 

 

Wether Roman's profile is fake or Packie not leaving in Revenge is assumption. But this topic ain't about IV's true ending. Doesn't change Niko's funny disgusted "really?!"-look at Little Jacob. 

 

 

[The Tracker]

10 hours ago, BabaFamilias said:

Arthur dies alone and betrayed by his father figure. He doesn't get his revenge. 

 

Revenge? Arthur didn't care about revenge on the slightest, all he wanted was a better life for the people he saw an opportunity to, and he achieved that to some extent, in fact, it was revenge what kinda f*cked it up.

[BabaFamilias]

10 minutes ago, The Tracker said:

Revenge? Arthur didn't care about revenge on the slightest, all he wanted was a better life for the people he saw an opportunity to, and he achieved that to some extent, in fact, it was revenge what kinda f*cked it up.

 

True, I love this complex multi layered story. "Despite my best efforts to the contrary, it turns out I have won." I still get goosebumps when I hear that. 

 

Edit: Achievement unlocked - Red Dead Depression

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by BabaFamilias

[Zello]

2 hours ago, BabaFamilias said:

- Packie is seen entering an airport at the end of Deal. 

End of deal? You're wrong here.

That's in TBOGT credits.

 

In IV credits for both endings are the same.

 

Deal is canon

 

Why would Packie leave the city if Kate was dead?

Edited June 19, 2021 by Zello

[BabaFamilias]

Thanks for correcting, so here are the facts:

• Lifeinvader didn't exist in 2008.
• Niko and Roman are registered on Lifeinvader.
• Packie enters an airport at the end of TBOGT.
• TBOGT ends after IV. 

There are literally no facts which confirm the assumption that Deal is canon, while the facts above confirm Revenge. 

 

30 minutes ago, Zello said:

Why would Packie leave the city if Kate was dead?

 

There could be gazillions of possibilities: his mother not wanting him around, him realizing his mother doesn't need help, him trying to start a new life, Rockstar hinting they are working on GTA V and we will see Packie etc. The final mission of TBOGT takes place after IV, so there could have literally happened anything in between which made Packie change his mind. Ryan Johnston probably had already done voice acting for V at that point and Rockstar needed an explanation for his cameo. The burden of proof lies with the claimant. Where are your facts?

 

[Zello]

The Lifeinvader profile of Niko isn't canon. It's an easter egg like the wanted posters of Niko that you can find in V.

3 hours ago, BabaFamilias said:

There could be gazillions of possibilities: his mother not wanting him around, him realizing his mother doesn't need help, him trying to start a new life, Rockstar hinting they are working on GTA V and we will see Packie etc. The final mission of TBOGT takes place after IV, so there could have literally happened anything in between which made Packie change his mind. Ryan Johnston probably had already done voice acting for V at that point and Rockstar needed an explanation for his cameo. The burden of proof lies with the claimant. Where are your facts?

 

Why would he get on that plane after the Revenge ending?

[billiejoearmstrong8]

On 6/18/2021 at 11:14 PM, Zello said:

Deal is canon.

 

Why would Packie leave the city at the end of TBOGT if Kate was dead?

 

In Revenge he tells Niko he had to take care of his mom because Kate is dead and no one else is going to take care of her and Francis obviously won't. If Kate is alive after deal Packie can leave the city because Kate would be taking care of his mom.

 

In V he mentions Derrick's death don't you think he would have mentioned Kate's death too?

 

Circumstances can change. He might've said that at first in despair and looked after her through the grieving process but maybe Francis did step in to help (he's still in contact with her, she still cares about him, and it doesn't seem like she's really included in his rift with the family, so I'm sure if she was in trouble as an elderly woman he would help). Or she could've moved to a nursing home if she was in bad health, or she could've died. Or something could've happened that meant he had to leave.

 

He only mentions Derrick's death because he's talking about the bank score and saying what happened to guys he did it with.

 

I think things are left open ended enough that either ending can be canon. That's the whole point of giving you the choice, that it's up to you to decide which one is. 

 

15 hours ago, RenegadeAngel said:

Niko does change in the end, but are there any significant differences between the Niko on the boat and the Niko on his way to finally see Darko? Was there any groundwork laid for us to see that sparing Darko is the right, proper decision for Niko, knowing especially how cold-blooded and ruthless he had been to his enemies throughout the entire game? I don't think so. I don't think Niko would be able to do that purely based on his preceding actions 

Even if we go with it and assume that Niko did learn somewhere and somehow that revenge is not the way, then things still don't add up, because he would then lose a loved one and do the exact opposite of what he was supposed to have just learned - resort to mindless revenge. Meaning that he doesn't learn a thing either way.

 

I don't think it's necessarily mindless revenge. I see his decision as based more on what course of action will be safer for him and Roman and will be more likely to get them out of all this sh*t. With that in mind there's solid reasoning for him choosing either way, both have a chance of working out and risks that they won't. Depending on your choice with Darko, your ending choice, and what criteria you used to make the choices you can really make Niko's story your own, there's room for a lot of variation and different interpretations there.

Edited June 20, 2021 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Spider-Vice]

On 6/19/2021 at 8:40 AM, Zello said:

It's an easter egg like the wanted posters of Niko that you can find in V.

Those were promotional content, I have high quality versions of them from a GTA IV press kit disc (Elizabeta's, Jacob's and Niko's) and some were physically posted around NYC IIRC, however one does wonder if they weren't supposed to be in the game. It could count as being canon tbh, but likely not as it only showed in promotional material.