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Luna Lovegood

Why fictional president names?

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Luna Lovegood
Posted (edited)

Alfred Macalister, Theodore Waxman, throughout the game newspaper they're mentioned as the current president of US around 1899-1907

 

for a game that tries to portray historical accuracy in the game time period, why did they fictionialized the president names? they didnt even appear onscreen

they mentioned a lot of historical events in the newspaper, even used real institute names (Pinkerton, Bureau of Investigation, etc)

 

Does R* might have plan for them for their future games appearing onscreen?

Edited by Luna Lovegood

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El Diablo 702
19 minutes ago, Luna Lovegood said:

Alfred Macalister, Theodore Waxman, throughout the game newspaper they're mentioned as the current president of US around 1899-1907

 

for a game that tries to portray historical accuracy in the game time period, why did they fictionialized the president names? they didnt even appear onscreen

they mentioned a lot of historical events in the newspaper, even used real institute names (Pinkerton, Bureau of Investigation, etc)

 

Does R* might have plan for them for their future games appearing onscreen?

They were actually sued for using the “Pinkerton” name.  It all comes down to the legality of name use, and the cost of using said name.  It’s the main reason radio stations are so limited in gta, R* has to pay licensing fees to the artists, and some artists don’t want their music associated with a video game much less gta.  

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Deadman2112

Because the game only parodies real life

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Taterman
9 hours ago, El Diablo 702 said:

They were actually sued for using the “Pinkerton” name.  It all comes down to the legality of name use, and the cost of using said name.  It’s the main reason radio stations are so limited in gta, R* has to pay licensing fees to the artists, and some artists don’t want their music associated with a video game much less gta.  

This from Wikipedia:

 

Pinkerton (detective agency)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 
 
Pinkerton
Pinkerton logo.svg
Private incorporation
Industry Private security contractor
Founded Chicago, Illinois, United States
(1850; 170 years ago)
Founder Allan Pinkerton
Headquarters ,
Area served
Worldwide
Services Security management, full-service risk management consulting, investigations, employment screening, protective services, security, crisis management, intelligence services
   
   

Pinkerton, founded as the Pinkerton National Detective Agency, is a private security guard and detective agency established in the United States by Scotsman Allan Pinkerton in 1850 and currently a subsidiary of Securitas AB.[1] Pinkerton became famous when he claimed to have foiled a plot to assassinate president-elect Abraham Lincoln, who later hired Pinkerton agents for his personal security during the Civil War.[2]

 

Pinkerton's agents performed services ranging from security guarding to private military contracting work. Notably, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency hired women and minorities from its founding, a practice uncommon at the time.[3] Pinkerton was the largest private law enforcement organization in the world at the height of its power.[4]

During the labor strikes of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to infiltrate unions, supply guards, keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, and recruit goon squads to intimidate workers.

 

One such confrontation was the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie.[5] The ensuing battle between Pinkerton agents and striking workers led to the deaths of three Pinkerton agents and nine steelworkers.[6][7] The Pinkertons were also used as guards in coal, iron, and lumber disputes in Illinois, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia as well as the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and the Battle of Blair Mountain in 1921.

 

The company now operates as "Pinkerton Consulting & Investigations, Inc. d.b.a. Pinkerton Corporate Risk Management", a division of the Swedish security company Securitas AB. The former Government Services division, PGS, now operates as Securitas Critical Infrastructure Services, Inc.[8]

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Jimbatron
14 hours ago, Luna Lovegood said:

Alfred Macalister, Theodore Waxman, throughout the game newspaper they're mentioned as the current president of US around 1899-1907

 

for a game that tries to portray historical accuracy in the game time period, why did they fictionialized the president names? they didnt even appear onscreen

they mentioned a lot of historical events in the newspaper, even used real institute names (Pinkerton, Bureau of Investigation, etc)

 

Does R* might have plan for them for their future games appearing onscreen?

What @Deadman2112 said.

 

New Austin, West Elizabeth, New Hanover, Lemoyne and Ambarino aren't real states. They are parodies of them. Same with historical people of note.

 

What does surprise me though is that New York is referenced. I'm sure they must have been at least tempted to call it Liberty City, although I guess this goes back as far as choices made in the original RDR, for example they reference California, rather than San Andreas. They've gone so far as to make tie-ins with Epislon and Madam Nazaar, it would have made perfect sense to me to make the universes the same just in a different period of time. But perhaps they thought prior to GTA V not enough casual gamers would know that Liberty City = New York, Los Santos = Los Angeles etc.

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Deadman2112
Posted (edited)

@Jimbatron

Definitely.

There's clearly a link between all the worlds that they create.

 

And considering the lawsuits over the years, the use of parodies is absolutely understandable.

 

Just like former games that they have produced...

They took chunks of real life history, but then mostly focused  on unsolved type things.

...or, at the very least stories that became urban legend and we're often exaggerated due to their unverifiable history.

 

A small example of this would be the parakeet.

In real life they never really found the definitive cause for their Extinction, ultimately leaving the answer open to debate and speculation.

 

The list of speculations...

 

...Pollution and loss of habitat from the industrial era.

 

...Deforestation/loss of habitat from agricultural/farming.

 

...Overhunting for the birds valuable bright plumage.

 

I suspect it was a bit of all of the above.

 

Then add in the fact that there was that conservationist who made the claim that a small group still existed in the wild. However he swore he would never tell anyone  their location.

 

It was widely  speculated that  they were somewhere in the swamps.

 

So Rockstar basically took this unanswered question and  gave us the ability to explorer a possible answer of...

"What happened to the species?"

 

Then there's the whole braithwaite's and Grays.

 

This post and the one that follows...

 

 

So basically they parodied this insane moment from Louisiana's history, of two families that actually feuded with one another.

 

Both in the story and in real life, the feud was over liquor and white lightning  territorial disputes.

...and the two families were also rumored to have been related by way of a secret marriage.

 

Because there were unanswered gaps in what actually went down from the real life story...

This left room for any number of possibilities, and a story.

 

And that's the beauty of a parody...

It doesn't have to be exact, and can still be recognized for what it is.

 

Personally I think it's brilliant. It teaches history, and exposes some sad truths in the process.

 

Edited by Deadman2112
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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

What @Deadman2112 said.

 

New Austin, West Elizabeth, New Hanover, Lemoyne and Ambarino aren't real states. They are parodies of them. Same with historical people of note.

 

What does surprise me though is that New York is referenced. I'm sure they must have been at least tempted to call it Liberty City, although I guess this goes back as far as choices made in the original RDR, for example they reference California, rather than San Andreas. They've gone so far as to make tie-ins with Epislon and Madam Nazaar, it would have made perfect sense to me to make the universes the same just in a different period of time. But perhaps they thought prior to GTA V not enough casual gamers would know that Liberty City = New York, Los Santos = Los Angeles etc.

Bonnie mentions Manhattan in the first game, during the ride to Armadillo.

 

I don't think it's because of casual gamers wouldn't get the reference. I think it's because Grand Theft Auto is over-the-top and portrays a caricature of today's world, while Red Dead Redemption 1 & 2 are more somber, down-to-earth, and take their western setting seriously. The tones would conflict with each other too much to be set in the same universe. Just look at Micah and Trevor. They're basically the same character, only Trevor is played for laughs, while Micah isn't.

Edited by Mysterious hero
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Jimbatron
3 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

Bonnie mentions Manhattan in the first game, during the ride to Armadillo.

 

I don't think it's because of casual gamers wouldn't get the reference. I think it's because Grand Theft Auto is over-the-top and portrays a caricature of today's world, while Red Dead Redemption 1 & 2 are more somber, down-to-earth, and take their western setting seriously. The tones would conflict with each other too much to be set in the same universe. Just look at Micah and Trevor. They're basically the same character, only Trevor is played for laughs, while Micah isn't.

RDR followed GTA IV which is very somber too. There is arguably much more in common of the mood and style of those two games than there is between GTA IV and GTA V. Some people loved it and others hated it but gritty realism was GTA IV’s signature.

 

They made a conscious choice not to link the universes in GTA IV and RDR, but then they started making connections between GTA V and RDR 2, so GTA V’s over-the-top style clearly has nothing to do with it,

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Mysterious hero
1 hour ago, Jimbatron said:

RDR followed GTA IV which is very somber too. There is arguably much more in common of the mood and style of those two games than there is between GTA IV and GTA V. Some people loved it and others hated it but gritty realism was GTA IV’s signature.

 

They made a conscious choice not to link the universes in GTA IV and RDR, but then they started making connections between GTA V and RDR 2, so GTA V’s over-the-top style clearly has nothing to do with it,

The connections between GTA 5 and Red Dead aren't canon, they're just easter eggs.

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Jimbatron
Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

The connections between GTA 5 and Red Dead aren't canon, they're just easter eggs.

With the Epsilon time travel component that’s up for debate as to whether it’s cannon or a simple Easter egg. Nevertheless they made an explicit link with game content, such as the Madam Nazaar machine giving references  specific to RDR 2.

 

Regardless your initial claim that they didn’t formally link the universes because GTA V has a different atmosphere and vibe doesn’t stack up.

Edited by Jimbatron

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RJX74

The funny part is that in the first game they were using real President names. In 1914 the newspaper boy will talk about Roosevelt being the first President to fly on an airplane.

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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

With the Epsilon time travel component that’s up for debate as to whether it’s cannon or a simple Easter egg. Nevertheless they made an explicit link with game content, such as the Madam Nazaar machine giving references  specific to RDR 2.

 

Regardless your initial claim that they didn’t formally link the universes because GTA V has a different atmosphere and vibe doesn’t stack up.

Again, those are just easter eggs. Are you saying that San Andreas, Liberty City, and Alderney exist alongside California, New York, and New Jersey? How come places like West Elizabeth and New Austin aren't offhandedly mention in the GTA games? Games like Manhunt and Bully are explicitly connected to GTA, yet Red Dead Redemption isn't.


My claim does stack up because the connections between the games aren't canon. They're fun little nods. It's like in GTA 4 when they had a mural for the 3D era protagonists. 

Edited by Mysterious hero
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Jimbatron
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

Again, those are just easter eggs. Are you saying that San Andreas, Liberty City, and Alderney exist alongside California, New York, and New Jersey? How come places like West Elizabeth and New Austin aren't offhandedly mention in the GTA games? Games like Manhunt and Bully are explicitly connected to GTA, yet Red Dead Redemption isn't.


My claim does stack up because the connections between the games aren't canon. They're fun little nods. It's like in GTA 4 when they had a mural for the 3D era protagonists. 

Whether or not they are Easter Eggs isn’t relevant.

 

You claimed they didn’t want to link the Universes because GTA V has an over the top atmosphere that didn’t fit with RDR.

 

But they’ve made more connections between RDR 2 and GTA V despite this contrast relative to GTA IV and RDR which had a more similar somber theme. So the evidence points in the exact opposite direction to your claim.

 

We can’t say for certain if these links are meant to be lasting or Easter Eggs, and as I said it’s not relevant, but as a side point you’ll now look pretty silly if Francis Sinclair ever turns up in a GTA game.

Edited by Jimbatron

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Mysterious hero
1 hour ago, Jimbatron said:

Whether or not they are Easter Eggs isn’t relevant.

 

You claimed they didn’t want to link the Universes because GTA V has an over the top atmosphere that didn’t fit with RDR.

 

But they’ve made more connections between RDR 2 and GTA V despite this contrast relative to GTA IV and RDR which had a more similar somber theme. So the evidence points in the exact opposite direction to your claim.

 

We can’t say for certain if these links are meant to be lasting or Easter Eggs, and as I said it’s not relevant, but as a side point you’ll now look pretty silly if Francis Sinclair ever turns up in a GTA game.

Saying they're "linked" implies that the connections are canonical. They're clearly not. 

If one video game franchise references another, does that mean those games are linked? Of course not. They're Easter Eggs. I don't know why you keep claiming that it isn't relevant when it's literally the entire reason you keep saying the games are connected.

 

I also noticed how you didn't mention any of the points I made about the in-universe states. 

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Darealbandicoot

Simple. RDR2 is set in a different universe and timeline. At least that's how I explain all the retcons lol. 

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Jimbatron
12 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

Saying they're "linked" implies that the connections are canonical. They're clearly not. 

If one video game franchise references another, does that mean those games are linked? Of course not. They're Easter Eggs. I don't know why you keep claiming that it isn't relevant when it's literally the entire reason you keep saying the games are connected.

 

I also noticed how you didn't mention any of the points I made about the in-universe states. 

Because I’m not trying to say whether they are canonical or not. It’s not relevant.

 

I’m just saying your initial argument is contrary to the evidence. You said they wouldn’t want to connect the universes because GTA was too over the top for RDRs somber atmosphere. But they have made more content connections between the franchises with GTA V which was more over the top than they did with GTA IV.

 

I think you’re desperately trying to turn it into an irrelevant debate about whether such content connections are cannon or Easter eggs because you’ve subsequently realised your initial reasoning is completely contrary to the evidence.

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Cutter De Blanc

god bless president fisher

 

Red_Dead_Redemption_2_20181107140843.jpg

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Taterman
1 hour ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

god bless president fisher

 

Haha, just got that card last night.

 

 

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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

I think you’re desperately trying to turn it into an irrelevant debate about whether such content connections are cannon or Easter eggs because you’ve subsequently realised your initial reasoning is completely contrary to the evidence.

Um no. I'm completely at a loss at what you are trying to say. 

 

You're saying that i'm wrong that GTA and Red Dead Redemption aren't connected, since they're multiple Easter Eggs in GTA V that suggests the contrary. I keep trying to tell you that these connections aren't canon. You claim it's irrelevant to whether or not they're canon. Why is it irrelevant? It's literally the entire backbone of your argument.

Saying there is a "connection" implies these connections are canonical. If the connections are canon, then I see your point. But since the connections aren't canon, then there isn't a true link between GTA and Red Dead Redemption. They're just nods. See my point?

Edited by Mysterious hero
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Cutter De Blanc

Jock Cranley 2020

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Jimbatron
13 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

Um no. I'm completely at a loss at what you are trying to say. 

 

You're saying that i'm wrong that GTA and Red Dead Redemption aren't connected, since they're multiple Easter Eggs in GTA V that suggests the contrary. I keep trying to tell you that these connections aren't canon. You claim it's irrelevant to whether or not they're canon. Why is it irrelevant? It's literally the entire backbone of your argument.

Saying there is a "connection" implies these connections are canonical. If the connections are canon, then I see your point. But since the connections aren't canon, then there isn't a true link between GTA and Red Dead Redemption. They're just nods. See my point?

You said they didn’t want to join up the universes because the genres were too different.

 

Two questions are therefore relevant:

 

1) Did the style an atmosphere of GTA become more over the top from GTA IV and GTA V?

 

2) Are there more content links between the games (of any kind) in RDR 2 to GTA V than there was between at GTA IV and RDR at the time of its release?

 

Your argument requires the answer to those questions to be no.

 

You’re banging on about whether you class stuff as Easter Eggs in an attempt to obfuscate because it is an arbitrary definition. Let’s stick with FACTS. There are now talking characters sharing religions and even discussing plot lines to the other story in GTA V and RDR 2. One of which is a 100% requirement for the single player game. Where were the examples like that between GTA IV and RDR?

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FrancisMcReary
On 5/12/2020 at 9:41 PM, Luna Lovegood said:

Alfred Macalister, Theodore Waxman, throughout the game newspaper they're mentioned as the current president of US around 1899-1907

 

for a game that tries to portray historical accuracy in the game time period, why did they fictionialized the president names? they didnt even appear onscreen

they mentioned a lot of historical events in the newspaper, even used real institute names (Pinkerton, Bureau of Investigation, etc)

 

Does R* might have plan for them for their future games appearing onscreen?

Well, realism does not need to go hand in hand with factualism.

 

To be honest I'm glad they fictionalized those names. It's nice to have a consequent world that is its own universe and wholeness and doesn't borrow from the real world. When you do that with one thing, you'll have to do it with many as the bar gets set for facts and not a holistic in-game playing wod experience.

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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jimbatron said:

You said they didn’t want to join up the universes because the genres were too different.

 

Two questions are therefore relevant:

 

1) Did the style an atmosphere of GTA become more over the top from GTA IV and GTA V?

 

2) Are there more content links between the games (of any kind) in RDR 2 to GTA V than there was between at GTA IV and RDR at the time of its release?

 

Your argument requires the answer to those questions to be no.

 

You’re banging on about whether you class stuff as Easter Eggs in an attempt to obfuscate because it is an arbitrary definition. Let’s stick with FACTS. There are now talking characters sharing religions and even discussing plot lines to the other story in GTA V and RDR 2. One of which is a 100% requirement for the single player game. Where were the examples like that between GTA IV and RDR?

Yes, GTA 5 is way more over-the-top than GTA 4

Yes, there are more references between GTA 5 and Red Dead Redemption 2 than GTA 4 and Red Dead Redemption.

And no, my argument doesn't require those answers to be "no". I don't know why you think they do.

 

I'm done. You're talking complete nonsense. One moment, you claim "it doesn't matter whether the Easter Eggs are canon or not" and then proceed to talk about said easter eggs as proof of a connection between GTA 5 and Red Dead Redemption 2. It's either relevant to the discussion or it isn't, you can't have it both ways. 

The easter eggs and references doesn't mean the games are connected. They're a wink and a nod to the players who have played both games.

 

You keep claiming I'm purposely prolonging the discussion because i'm "wrong". Projecting much? My initial claim is still correct because GTA and Red Dead Redemption do not take place in the same universe. It doesn't matter that Red Dead Redemption 2 implies that Francis Sinclair is apart of the Epsilon Cult or that there's a Madam Nazar machine in GTA 5. They're both not an official connection, they're both a reference to each others games.

 

I won this discussion, you lost. It's as simple as that.

Edited by Mysterious hero
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Jimbatron
17 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

Yes, GTA 5 is way more over-the-top than GTA 4

Yes, there are more references between GTA 5 and Red Dead Redemption 2 than GTA 4 and Red Dead Redemption.

And no, my argument doesn't require those answers to be "no". I don't know why you think they do.

If you accept those two points then your initial argument makes no sense.

 

If they felt the genres were too incompatible to put linked content references in RDR after GTA IV, they wouldn’t then increase the amount of them between between RDR 2 and GTA V when the GTA V became more over the top than GTA IV.

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spoonman039

regarding cities, it's pretty simple, they use original ones if they don't appear in the game.. Dutch mentions Cuba, New York, Tahiti, all of which they didn't visit.. Hosea also mentions some other parts which they visited before events of RDR2. but New York is called Liberty city in GTA because several games takes place in it.
we cannot be sure if GTA and RDR universe are connected, but they are definitely not the same when it comes to the cities they takes place, and also different period, so I personally don't care..
whole Epsilon program connection is pretty likely an easter egg.

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Deadman2112
Posted (edited)

I truly don't see how people can't accept the idea that the worlds are linked.

 

 

You have the Epsilon cult and Francis Sinclair

 

 

You have the altruist cult and Dutch with his books by Evelyn Miller.

For those of you that are unsure what I mean by this...

The altruists in GTA V rejected Society and fled into the mountains seeking a simpler way of life. And through their actions felt like they needed to re-educate society.

They say this on their website in the game.

 

Dutch ultimately does and repeatedly says the same exact things throughout the story of Red Dead Redemption.

Case in point

chapter 3

Dutch Hosea and author go fishing.

He tells Arthur...

we're trying to reform Society to a kinder, gentler way. But we all know what Dutch really means.

 

 

Then you have the mysterious stranger who calls himself an accountant.

Then on Sinners Street near Mission Row in Grand Theft Auto V they have the scorer's riddle.

A scorer is another name for an accountant.

 

 

Then theres the religion known as chelonia aka the children of the mountain

 

 

I can't think of a logical explanation that discounts all of these things.

So if someone has an explanation for it, I sure would like to hear it.

 

...and I've only mentioned a handful of the most obvious obvious links. There are others.

 

Edited by Deadman2112
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GTA-Biker

I think it is possible that GTA and Red Dead games take place in the same universe.There's a bunch of connections between them,such as Jack Marston's book in GTA 5, madam Nazar being referenced with Nazar Speaks fortune telling machine, two guns (Double Action Revolver and Navy Revolver) so far appearing in both GTA Online and RDR 2, and Francis Sinclair's possible connection to the Epsilon Program.As for RDR locations never being mentioned in GTA so far,maybe it's because they were never relevant to the story so there was no need to mention them in GTA (not to mention that the only GTA game released since RDR 1 was GTA 5,maybe in some future GTA game there will be references to Saint Denis or Blackwater just as there already were references to Carcer City and Bullworth),and as for New York and California being mentioned instead of Liberty City and San Andreas in Red Dead games,possibly in R* universe those locations got renamed sometime between 1910s and 1980s,or maybe very similar locations really do coexist in that universe seeing as in RDR 2 newspapers mention that Lemoyne Raiders are moving to Texas despite parts of West Elizabeth and New Austin being based on Texas.IMO,even if they're not the same universe,they are at least closely connected.

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donnits
Posted (edited)

I think the "parody" goes too far. Where do you draw the line at what's parodied and not. Should North America be called a fake name, or planet Earth? I think they should've used real presidents - and real guns for that matter. RDR1 used Winchester Repeater, Henry Repeater, etc, it f*cks with me that these guns just don't exist anymore in RDR2 despite it being canonically linked to the former.

Edited by donnits

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LegitimatePride
Posted (edited)

Teddy Roosevelt was actually mentioned in RDR1, in RDR2 he got retconned out and replaced with his bootleg version Thaddeus Waxman.

 

Edited by LegitimatePride

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UpTheDowngrade

Trelawny mentions Oregon, too.

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