Mafia: The Trilogy

[GhettoJesus]

Supposedly the guy who wrote Mafia 3 also wrote the extensions for Mafia 1. The same guy that decided "no no you don't play as the mafia in Mafia 3". Or at least so I heard. I hope whoever said it is wrong about it.

Edited May 15, 2020 by GhettoJesus

[Creed Bratton]

1 hour ago, GhettoJesus said:

Supposedly the guy who wrote Mafia 3 also wrote the extensions for Mafia 1. The same guy that decided "no no you don't play as the mafia in Mafia 3". Or at least so I heard. I hope whoever said it is wrong about it.

Even if it's true it's not necessarily a problem. It's not like he can rewrite the entire narrative. He can only work within the confines of the existing setting and narrative. And Mafia 3 had some pretty great dialogues. The problem wasn't even the entire concept as much as how that concept was realized in the end. It should have been more than a revenge story.

[GhettoJesus]

1 minute ago, DareYokel said:

Even if it's true it's not necessarily a problem. It's not like he can rewrite the entire narrative. He can only work within the confines of the existing setting and narrative. And Mafia 3 had some pretty great dialogues. The problem wasn't even the entire concept as much as how that concept was realized in the end. It should have been more than a revenge story.

Maybe so. I really hope they can nail it down.

[Creed Bratton]

I replayed the original Mafia last year. It's not as great as I remember it being. It was at the time, sure. There was nothing else like it. But one of the consequences of growing up is that you develop an unfortunate ability to see flaws in things that you once loved unconditionally. Mafia 1 was one giant cliche wrapped in a stereotype. I still love it, but I see what it is a lot better than I used to.

Edited May 15, 2020 by DareYokel

[Nico]

1 minute ago, DareYokel said:

But one of the consequences of growing up is that you develop an unfortunate ability to see flaws in things that you once loved unconditionally.

This is so true. Going off-topic for a second, but all my favourite childhood TV shows just aren't what they used to be for me. I still love them, but sometimes it's difficult to appreciate them rationally.

[Mister Pink]

1 hour ago, GhettoJesus said:

Supposedly the guy who wrote Mafia 3 also wrote the extensions for Mafia 1. The same guy that decided "no no you don't play as the mafia in Mafia 3". Or at least so I heard. I hope whoever said it is wrong about it.

Yeah, I don't mind that at all. The writing in Mafia 3 was brilliant. I would say the storytelling was even better than that of II or what I seen, I, despite whether people liked or disliked the setting. And I think that writer should be praised for trying to do something original in a series and just original in a game. I think the idea was noble, if even the execution (gameplay-wise wasn't 100%) The first 2 games you get brought it to the life and the other, you are fall into the life and fight the Mafia. You get to be with them and be against them. If anything, I think that's excellent. 

 

Like a great show like The Wire you see into lives of the police departments, the school system politics and the drug gangs. You experience their lives from all perspectives. And I think going against the Mafia and getting to play as them is great. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather play as them or as another established crime outfit like the Irish mob or the Bratva. But that's a whole other story. 

 

31 minutes of cutscene time, dedicated to one man, the crime boss of this Mafia game and people still complained it wasn't a Mafia game!   

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Mister Pink

[GhettoJesus]

12 minutes ago, Mister Pink said:

Yeah, I don't mind that at all. The writing in Mafia 3 was brilliant. I would say the storytelling was even better than that of II or what I seen, I, despite whether people liked or disliked the setting. And I think that writer should be praised for trying to do something original in a series and just original in a game. I think the idea was noble, if even the execution (gameplay-wise wasn't 100%) The first 2 games you get brought it to the life and the other, you are fall into the life and fight the Mafia. You get to be with them and be against them. If anything, I think that's excellent. 

 

Like a great show like The Wire you see into lives of the police departments, the school system politics and the drug gangs. You experience their lives from all perspectives. And I think going against the Mafia and getting to play as them is great. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather play as them or as another established crime outfit like the Irish mob or the Bratva. But that's a whole other story. 

I guess many people appreciate the setting. For me it is very hard to detach from prohibition era organized crime with a strict code. Mafia 2 worked nevertheless but I liked the 40s settings more. 3's setting however I didn't like at all. Don't get me wrong, segregation era deep south is a perfect setting but not for the Mafia series. It would be interesting to see a game with this setting focusing on segregation as a topic though.

Fair warning I am definitely biased towards 1 even after all these years because it was such a milestone in gaming for me. So whenever I sh*t on 3 or praise 1 take it with a grain of salt.

 

Edit: Now I am watching those cutscenes. Is that the same VA from 2? Can't recognize his voice.

Edited May 15, 2020 by GhettoJesus

[Creed Bratton]

8 minutes ago, Mister Pink said:

31 minutes of cutscene time, dedicated to one man, the crime boss of this Mafia game and people still complained it wasn't a Mafia game!

There's a lot more that makes a game than cutscenes. Mafia 3 was tonally and thematically not a Mafia game. Not because you didn't play as an Italian mafioso, but because you played as a f*ckin' Rambo. An unstoppable force that deals out death to hundreds of people. Mafia is supposed to be a more subdued drama, not a dumb action game.

[Mister Pink]

3 minutes ago, GhettoJesus said:

I guess many people appreciate the setting. For me it is very hard to detach from prohibition era organized crime with a strict code. Mafia 2 worked nevertheless but I liked the 40s settings more. 3's setting however I didn't like at all. Don't get me wrong, segregation era deep south is a perfect setting but not for the Mafia series. It would be interesting to see a game with this setting focusing on segregation as a topic though.

Fair warning I am definitely biased towards 1 even after all these years because it was such a milestone in gaming for me. So whenever I sh*t on 3 or praise 1 take it with a grain of salt

Haha, OK, I'm with you. 

 

I prefer prohibition era too. I'm a huge fan of Boardwalk Empire, one of the greatest Mafia shows going. Just love the style, the clothing, everything. Next would be 70's/80's New York (Donnie Brasco) era. 

 

That's why I'm excited to play Mafia 1. Because I don't think it's that great looking now. Not enough for me to enjoy like you all did back then. 

 

@DareYokel: Your acting like I don't respect or enjoy Mafia genre. I've watched The Sopranos about 3 times and Boardwalk about the same. It's not a typical Mafia game, but it's thematically about the Mafia. It's literally about a guy who goes and takes the whole Mafia organization down. 

 

GTA characters are unstoppable forces and are "dumb rambo games" too. But you still play them, right? I think you are being a bit dramatic and unfair to be honest. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Mister Pink

[Creed Bratton]

 

If you have the time, I'd recommend watching this.

Edited May 15, 2020 by DareYokel

[GhettoJesus]

1 minute ago, Mister Pink said:

Haha, OK, I'm with you. 

 

I prefer prohibition era too. I'm a huge fan of Boardwalk Empire, one of the greatest Mafia shows going. Just love the style, the clothing, everything. Next would be 70's/80's New York (Donnie Brasco) era. 

 

That's why I'm excited to play Mafia 1. Because I don't think it's that great looking now. Not enough for me to enjoy like you all did back then. 

Talk about enjoying, I don't think my PC will be able to run the remake so despite my hype (and worry) I will have to resort to walkthroughs on youtube for the experience.

[Creed Bratton]

4 minutes ago, Mister Pink said:

GTA characters are unstoppable forces and are "dumb rambo games" too. But you still play them, right?

Yes, because that's what GTA is. I don't expect GTA to be anything else. But it's not what Mafia is. Mafia is supposed to be different than GTA and more realistic in its storytelling and characterization. Both have a place in the market so there's no reason for Mafia to try to be more like GTA and vice versa.

[GhettoJesus]

I wonder what will they do with the map and cars. Most cars are sluggish, they all have different physics and driving takes up a lot of time. Also the map is well detailed and pretty big. I kinda hope they keep this. A lot of people who were introduced to the first game after 2 or people who expected a GTA loathed it.

[Jabalous]

24 minutes ago, DareYokel said:

There's a lot more that makes a game than cutscenes. Mafia 3 was tonally and thematically not a Mafia game. Not because you didn't play as an Italian mafioso, but because you played as a f*ckin' Rambo. An unstoppable force that deals out death to hundreds of people. Mafia is supposed to be a more subdued drama, not a dumb action game.

I personally think that one of Mafia 3's shortcomings was that we didn't play with a mafioso. The story also felt forced in some ways like if we're playing with a black character whose on a mission only to kill racists, and it's exemplified in the mission in which players massacre KKK members. The first two games weren't politically driven story wise and both focused on pure Mafia-themed crime.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Jabalous

[Creed Bratton]

7 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

The first two games weren't politically driven story wise

Mafia 3 isn't politically driven either. Playing with a black character in that era and in that city is a wonderful idea. The racism aspect is simply unavoidable in that context. It would do the game a disservice not to include it. But it absolutely isn't the driving force of the narrative.

[Badman_]

I'm very exciting about the upcoming release. I don't think Mafia 2 needs an entire remake, but I'm glad they're doing it with Mafia 1. It's a very underrated game from the PS2-era.

[GhettoJesus]

1 hour ago, The Wolf Man said:

I'm very exciting about the upcoming release. I don't think Mafia 2 needs an entire remake, but I'm glad they're doing it with Mafia 1. It's a very underrated game from the PS2-era.

Ye aren't they just optimizing Mafia 2 with more graphical options and that's it?

 

 

 

I hope they won't do these tho. Just to clarify these aren't leaks just dystopian views.

Edited May 15, 2020 by GhettoJesus

[Bloodytears1666]

2 hours ago, GhettoJesus said:

I guess many people appreciate the setting. For me it is very hard to detach from prohibition era organized crime with a strict code. Mafia 2 worked nevertheless but I liked the 40s settings more. 3's setting however I didn't like at all. Don't get me wrong, segregation era deep south is a perfect setting but not for the Mafia series. It would be interesting to see a game with this setting focusing on segregation as a topic though.

I think it was perfect place and time for a protagonist, may be didn't played out well with Mafia in general point, but played out just perfect in the whole picture. Shooting southern KKK leader with a rifle in a point blank range was a picture of that worth the whole setting and the actual rise of an African mafia above weak Italian mobs just a great twist for a Mafia game. Especially considering how Mafia 2 revealed things, and Vito's situation.

 

Also really interested in what they decide to cannon, was Lincoln the mob or not in Mafia IV.

 

1 hour ago, GhettoJesus said:

 

 

I hope they won't do these tho.

No way! 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Bloodytears1666

[DOUGL4S1]

2 hours ago, GhettoJesus said:

 

 

 

I hope they won't do these tho. Just to clarify these aren't leaks just dystopian views.

Ah yes, the most trustworthy leak posting website there is on theinternet: 4chan.

 

And I think they will keep at least some main gameplay mechanics intact, or at least modernize them, for nostalgia sake. The last thing they need is another expensive, well awaited game backfiring on them.

Edited May 15, 2020 by DOUGL4S1

[Commander S]

2 hours ago, DareYokel said:

There's a lot more that makes a game than cutscenes. Mafia 3 was tonally and thematically not a Mafia game. Not because you didn't play as an Italian mafioso, but because you played as a f*ckin' Rambo. An unstoppable force that deals out death to hundreds of people. Mafia is supposed to be a more subdued drama, not a dumb action game.

 

 

It's not so bad in the main game - considering the game plays almost like Metal Gear Solid V, I actually prefer playing it as a stealth game primarily, and then I'm basically playing Lincoln like a cross between Salino from The Sting (one-shotting people with a silenced pistol) and Frank Nitti from The Untouchables (out comes the machine gun). It's not so far removed from going in guns blazing as Vito at the end of Mafia II.

 

I'd say it's less 'Mafia III doesn't play like a Mafia game', more that Mafia III sometimes does balls up the same courage to be as realistically restrained as Mafia II, but just as often wants to be a GTA-style crowd-pleaser. L.A. Noire had the same problem: it's half police procedural, half 'this is a R*-published sandbox game, so it needs the level of gratifying excess that people expect from a GTA-like game (hence street racing, shootouts with ridiculous body counts, chasing down bad guys with a flamethrower...). Funnily enough, Noah Gervais mentions the same in his L.A. Noire video - and it's his follow-up about Mafia III's DLC that really drives home the tension between the 'Mafia game' part of Mafia III, and the 'AAA open-world game' part:

 

 

 

(particularly how Stones Unturned is basically the devs randomly doing a Broken Arrow knock-off, because ...why?!? )

 

 

As for "thematically", I ...eh, I actually think that what Mafia III does in terms of the big picture fits into a nice pattern with the first two games - i.e., each one deals with a significant periods in American history, how the mob relates to that, and puts us in the shoes of someone best placed for the player to be on the receiving end. So Mafia covers the Prohibition era and the Great Depression, Mafia II WW2 and the promise of the post-war era (using Vito's standing in the mob almost as metaphor for how said promise ended up being all too hollow for many), and then Mafia III Vietnam and Civil Rights (doing almost like Red Dead, and framing the imminent decline of the mob, and society grudgingly becoming somewhat more of an evenly-shared pie, as one being intertwined with the other).

 

That's kind of why I'd rather have Mafia IV set in Empire Bay again - I know that some folk basically want the game equivalent of Casino (and '70s Vegas was where Hangar 13 were thinking of taking a sequel), but for me, I'd want a game that uses the RICO act as the key historical context, and maybe drawing more upon something like Donnie Brasco, or real-life parallels to John Gotti (or maybe save that for a possible fifth game, I dunno...). That fits that same groove as all three previous games, with real-life history being crucial to informing the tone and themes of the story, rather than just retro set dressing.

[Awful Waffle]

3 hours ago, DOUGL4S1 said:

Ah yes, the most trustworthy leak posting website there is on theinternet: 4chan.

actually it's not claiming to be a "leak."

 

it's just some guy making a [educated] guess based on the way remakes have been treated in the recent past.

I hope he's wrong. but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's right.

 

remakes tend to get polished up and dumbed down....

Edited May 16, 2020 by Awful Waffle

[GhettoJesus]

7 hours ago, DOUGL4S1 said:

Ah yes, the most trustworthy leak posting website there is on theinternet: 4chan.

As I said these weren't meant to be leaks by the posters themselves, just guessings.

 

8 hours ago, Bloodytears1666 said:

I think it was perfect place and time for a protagonist, may be didn't played out well with Mafia in general point, but played out just perfect in the whole picture. Shooting southern KKK leader with a rifle in a point blank range was a picture of that worth the whole setting and the actual rise of an African mafia above weak Italian mobs just a great twist for a Mafia game. Especially considering how Mafia 2 revealed things, and Vito's situation.

For me mafia will always be ethnic Italian gangs but I agree that the topic and the theme is a good choice, just for another game. Not many games before were set during segregation in the deep south, right? I think it could be explored in a different IP.

Edited May 16, 2020 by GhettoJesus

[Creed Bratton]

8 hours ago, Commander S said:

That's kind of why I'd rather have Mafia IV set in Empire Bay again - I know that some folk basically want the game equivalent of Casino (and '70s Vegas was where Hangar 13 were thinking of taking a sequel), but for me, I'd want a game that uses the RICO act as the key historical context, and maybe drawing more upon something like Donnie Brasco, or real-life parallels to John Gotti (or maybe save that for a possible fifth game, I dunno...). That fits that same groove as all three previous games, with real-life history being crucial to informing the tone and themes of the story, rather than just retro set dressing.

Vegas in the 70's was basically run by the Mafia. It's also a good fit.

[Awful Waffle]

yeah anyone who thinks Vegas isn't "real life history" of the Mafia doesn't know anything about the Mafia 

[Mister Pink]

16 hours ago, DareYokel said:

Mafia is supposed to be different than GTA and more realistic in its storytelling and characterization. Both have a place in the market so there's no reason for Mafia to try to be more like GTA and vice versa.

I'm not claiming what the Mafia series is or isn't supposed to be. You are. I only brought up the GTA comparison because your saying in Mafia III you are a rambo-guy, like somehow trying to discredit the game based on that.. Yeah, well so was Niko Bellic. What's your point? It still doesn't negate that Mafia III is a mafia game. That's the original point. Because it doesn't fit in to some mould you have of what Mafia is and isn't supposed to be. Mafia is whatever the developers want it to be. You might prefer a vision for Mafia but it doesn't mean your right, it's just your personal preference. 

 

I still stand my ground and say Mafia III is a mafia game.  It's a game about taking down the Mafia as featured in the story. I just posted a video before of 31 minutes of cutscenes dedicated to Sal Marcano who is a mafioso crime bross. He is the main antagonist. Your claim Mafia III isn't a Mafia game. The burden of proof is on you. You are making that claim.  It might be Mafia game with a twist, a new take on the genre. As I said before, I prefer prohibition-era, I prefer playing as a mafioso but at least I'm can admit that Mafia III is a game about the mafia and not let my judgement cloud me because I disliked a game so much. 

 

A risk was taken  to a fresh take on the genre. Sometimes it hits, some times it misses. David Chase and HBO took a chance at making a Mafia story during a time when the mafia were all getting sent down, the mafia film was dead and cliched, and they based on not the New York families but the bastard "6th family" New Jersey mob and called it The Sopranos and the main guy visits a shrink. That was taking a chance and doing a twist on the Mafia genre and it paid off. People laughed at that idea of making a show based on New Jersey mafia, I think what they tried to do was original in Mafia III. In the time of remakes, oversaturation of superhero films, Ubisoft games and EA, I welcomed this original idea. I respect the attempt at something new. 

 

I get it, you hated the game, so your frustrated and in your eyes it's not a true Mafia game to you own metrics of what a Mafia game is. I saw it as a progression. Didn't hit all the marks (just like Mafia II) but the originality of it made up for it. I would actually compare Mafia III closer to Sleeping Dogs. A game doing something a bit different, in a new setting for an open world. Not perfect but a new experience. 

 

Again, I prefer a Mafia II-style setting, or like you said a Las Vegas in the 70's/80s would be really nice. I wouldn't mind if they went like Rockstar did started taking huge inspiration from shows like Boardwalk Empire. 

 

Wasn't there a rumour that Mafia IV was supposed to be set in Vegas but got canned due to the backlash of III. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Mister Pink

[GhettoJesus]

6 minutes ago, Mister Pink said:

Wasn't there a rumour that Mafia IV was supposed to be set in Vegas but got canned due to the backlash of III. 

I wouldn't be surprised if 2K gave he IP to a new studio. Some people suggest they definitely will.

[Mister Pink]

13 hours ago, Commander S said:

hat's kind of why I'd rather have Mafia IV set in Empire Bay again - I know that some folk basically want the game equivalent of Casino (and '70s Vegas was where Hangar 13 were thinking of taking a sequel), but for me, I'd want a game that uses the RICO act as the key historical context, and maybe drawing more upon something like Donnie Brasco, or real-life parallels to John Gotti (or maybe save that for a possible fifth game, I dunno...). That fits that same groove as all three previous games, with real-life history being crucial to informing the tone and themes of the story, rather than just retro set dressing.

I could really get with this. 

 

Love Donnie Brasco and that style during that time. I wouldn't even mind if they went for a more literal depiction of New York. New York was such a lawless place in the 70's and 80's. The 2014 film A Most Violent Year staring Oscar Isaac is named as it's set in New York during 1981 during New York's statistically most violent year on record when it came to violent crime. No doubt the Mafia had some part in this. The film isn't a very violent film at all. But it's a superb, tense crime-drama and the theme and year paints a nice backdrop for the film's story, when trucks got hijacked daily by the mob. 

 

 

There's an excellent short doc that was a marketing preview for the film. Like the way we like watching films that relate to the games we play to add context and realism to the game. They made a short documentary about 1981, New York to promote the film. So it adds realism to the film. Amazing. 

 

 

This why I wished GTA was set during 1981 than any other year. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Mister Pink

[Creed Bratton]

4 hours ago, Mister Pink said:

I'm not claiming what the Mafia series is or isn't supposed to be.

Yup.

 

4 hours ago, Mister Pink said:

 It still doesn't negate that Mafia III is a mafia game.

Of course it's a Mafia game. It's just a bad Mafia game because of all the aforementioned reasons.

[Commander S]

8 hours ago, DareYokel said:

Vegas in the 70's was basically run by the Mafia. It's also a good fit.

 

 

I know - but considering that was also true in the '60s, you could quite easily tell the same kind of story about a mob-run casino in either decade, and not have to change too much outside of period-appropriate references. I.e., the larger context of history doesn't really need to factor in with that as the premise - and again, I still think that the Mafia games have always had Big, Important Historical Context as the foundation for each story.

 

That's why I say it make sense to tell a story that hinges around the RICO act in some fashion - because (to put it really simply) it effectively made mob organisation itself illegal, putting the squeeze on the Mafia in the US. In particular, something similar to the real-life story of Donnie Brasco would be a perfect fit (and also allow for a story that doesn't risk having a similar 'rise and fall' arc to Tommy and Vito again, while still telling a more 'inside the mob' story than III could), because (spoilers if you don't know, or haven't seen the film of the same name):

 

Spoiler

..."Donnie Brasco" was actually Joseph Pistone, one of the first FBI agents to infiltrate the Mafia (or work undercover long-term in any criminal organisation, for that matter - Hoover warned about it potentially corrupting agents, but Pistone's work proved as a highly successful proof-of-concept).

 

 

Likewise, a roman à clef about John Gotti feels like a no-brainer for the series eventually, considering how incredibly reckless the "Teflon Don" was, and how all of those chickens eventually coming home to roost (to quote Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso) "...was the beginning of the end of Cosa Nostra".

 

What I suppose they could do is use something like a Donnie Brasco-influenced narrative, but transplant it from New York to Vegas, and kill two birds with one stone, which'd be cool - all I'm saying is that the RICO act is one of the most significant things to happen to the American Mafia, happening not that long after Mafia II, and it'd be the perfect equivalent historical 'core' to the narrative that pivoting either side of WWII was to Vito's story, and the Civil Rights era to Lincoln's. To (massively!) paraphrase former Marvel Comics EiC Jim Shooter: sure, you can tell a story about anything Alexander Fleming did in 1928 - but the discovery of penicillin is the most important thing on the table.

[Commander S]

5 hours ago, Mister Pink said:

 

Wasn't there a rumour that Mafia IV was supposed to be set in Vegas but got canned due to the backlash of III. 

 

5 hours ago, GhettoJesus said:

I wouldn't be surprised if 2K gave he IP to a new studio. Some people suggest they definitely will.

 

 

Actually, no - to quote Jason Schreier's article again:

 

As they entered 2017, the people behind Mafia III split into two main groups. Some people moved on to the game’s downloadable content, while others started conceiving ideas for what their next project might look like.

 

At first, the plan was to make Mafia IV, set in Vegas during the 1970s. It was an enthralling vision—a video game take on Martin Scorsese’s Casino, set in the glitz and glamor of mob-controlled Sin City. It’s easy to imagine what that might have looked like: fighting enemies on the strip, managing your own casino, putting your character’s name in lights.

 

Plans for a fourth Mafia didn’t last long. At one point, as two sources recalled, Blackman flew to New York City to meet with Take-Two and 2K higher-ups. He then told the staff of Hangar 13 that he’d been given a choice: They could either develop Mafia IV or start something completely unique, a new intellectual property. He said he’d picked the latter. “The way it was pitched in the big all-hands meeting was: Mafia IV was a great thing, it’s exciting,” said one person who was there. “But we’ve always wanted to do our own IP.”

 

That new IP ("Rhapsody") went through some drastic concept revisions, before fizzling out completely, and leaving Hangar 13 without anything to work on - the studio had a round of layoffs after that, although the Mafia III creative leads (including director and LucasArts veteran Haden Blackman, and lead writer William Harms) are still there, and the studio now has four divisions (the fourth being a UK team, based in Brighton). And more crucially, the studio handling the just-announced Mafia remake is ...Hangar 13.

 

In fact, I wonder if the Mafia IV speculation might have been premature - the various trademark filings last year (two just reading "Mafia", one using the Mafia II logo, the third being the updated logo for Hangar 13) got people speculating that the "Mafia" one was for a fourth game, or possibly a reboot, but with the recent news, it's almost certainly "Mafia" as in the first game (i.e. the remake), not the series in general or a possible sequel/reboot.