GTA VI Protagonist & Diversity

[Algonquin Assassin 50,068]

42 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

I personally didn't detect forced diversity in RDR2. However one thing that I did notice was R* playing it safer than usual. No brothels, Minimum nudity and overall a different approach to women in comparison to the usual R* I know. Which is kind of upsetting. Prostitutes were a big part of the old west.

 

We also hear in RDR that Abigail was supposed to be a prostitute(Dutch once said we all had her but he married her) which makes me believe that Dutch's gang DID keep a couple of them around but we don't see any of that. In short, I didn't see the "edgy" RockstarGames that always knew no boundaries in RDR2. And that's kind of worrying. These kinds of things might be offensive to women, but in the end they are a part of the criminal underworld. So they should be represented. 

To be fair RDR1 didn't have hookers/brothels that could be interacted with or much nudity either. Even if we consider the fact it was because of John being married it really wasn't touched on to any great extent atleast not like it is in the GTAs series. As for nudity aside from the one time Reyes has sex with that woman I don't remember seeing any nudity at all. Although it's not quite the same thing what about how Arthur can get a "bath" and he's pretty much shown naked when the camera pans on him?

 

I don't think it's because R* have become soft or anything. GTA V proves that with its sexualised content. I just think R* have different values for the Red Dead series is all. I think it's a bit of a cliche that Westerns are just about going to saloons, getting drunk, having brawls and screwing around with hookers. 

 

Besides I've seen a number of Westerns that don't include this aspect at all.. I agree that it's authentic and it was a way of life back then, but I don't think it's because R* have lost their edge. They just want players to experience the authenticity of the old West from different angles it seems.

[Zapper 2,616]

35 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

To be fair RDR1 didn't have hookers/brothels that could be interacted with or much nudity either.

Infact both RDRs give us narrative explanation of why John or Arthur turns down hookers. 

 

Also like the Reyes scene in RDR1, there is only one nude scene in sexual context in RDR2. ( 'A Quiet Time'. 2 times actually if you count Lenny on Lenny lmao)

35 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

They just want players to experience the authenticity of the old West from different angles it seems.

Absolutely right. Both RDRs have extremely minimal swearing compared to GTA4 or 5 while dialogue still being dramatised to an extent.

And the only western I remember with a good deal of swearing in it is Deadwood and I think I read an article once that said Milch took pretty big liberties with swearing in Deadwood, because if they used swearing from the time period, it would just sound hilariously dated and inoffensive and not as impactful as he intended it to be.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Zapper

[Raavi 23,705]

6 hours ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

You have a habit of coming into threads like these, hurling insults, and not contributing anything to the conversation. Tell us how a gay or female protagonist will improve the game.  

My post wasnt meant as a contribution, buddy. It was a moderation-post initially locking the thread. Came back on that because I consider it a public service to allow those who wish to hang themselves with their own words to do so. 

 

 

 

[billiejoearmstrong8 5,479]

1 hour ago, SonofLosSantos said:

Dude it’s 2020, there MAY be VERY VERY FEW prostitutes on the street, but almost all prostitutes I knew made their money meeting people over the Internet. It’s just safer, more practical, and more convenient. That’s why I’m asking you how many prostitutes you know PERSONALLY, because it sounds like you have no clue what you’re talking about. Women don’t just become prostitutes with the sole purpose of fueling their drug addictions. To be honest tho are more few and far between. These girls are out here f*cking old men and getting Benzes and paying for college with that money. It’s not the 1990’s anymore. Escorting/prostitution has completely changed. The current First Lady of the United States was turning tricks for her would be husband 😂

 

 

Yeah that type of prostitution has increased but if you think there aren't also millions of poor, homeless and drug addicted people who turn to prostitution to pay for a drug habit or are forced into it by people who want to exploit them you're living in a dream world. A number of women paying for college and getting Benzes etc by hooking doesn't magically make the many desperate and exploited women of the world disappear. Just because they operate over the internet doesn't mean they're not part of that unfortunate group btw. Personal/anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much I'm afraid.

 

"Women don’t just become prostitutes with the sole purpose of fueling their drug addictions" - you have to be kidding me. How else do you think the very poor and homeless pay for heroin, crack, large amounts of alcohol etc besides crime and prostitution? And do you think sex trafficking no longer exists? This stuff is happening every day, the world isn't a wonderful place with no suffering just because it's "not the 1990s".

Edited May 4, 2020 by billiejoearmstrong8

[The Wolf Man 1,455]

Most western movies (at least the most popular ones) don't have a realistic depiction of the 1800s. They're very romanticized.

I don't see why RDR2 needs to be 100% historically accurate. The game is more like a tribute to the western genre which, again, wasn't realistic at all.

 

"Unforgiven" (1992) is considered to be one of the most brutal & accurate westerns out there and Morgan Freeman is one of the main characters.

 

(Sorry for bad english).

[Damien Scott 840]

6 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

Elizabeta would’ve made a good protagonist imo

No way. Don't get me wrong, Elizabeta is a good character but I can't see a fat woman running around shooting and beating people, jumping off buildings, getting out of a moving car, jumping on a moving truck, etc. That's why I think GTA protagonists should always be phisically fit men who are able to do these things.

 

Before someone says ''b-but Michael was old and fat'', remember that he wasn't even that old (45 years old) nor fat and he was an athlete in high school.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Damien Scott

[SonofLosSantos 5,227]

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Yeah that type of prostitution has increased but if you think there aren't also millions of poor, homeless and drug addicted people who turn to prostitution to pay for a drug habit or are forced into it by people who want to exploit them you're living in a dream world. A number of women paying for college and getting Benzes etc by hooking doesn't magically make the many desperate and exploited women of the world disappear. Just because they operate over the internet doesn't mean they're not part of that unfortunate group btw. Personal/anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much I'm afraid.

 

"Women don’t just become prostitutes with the sole purpose of fueling their drug addictions" - you have to be kidding me. How else do you think the very poor and homeless pay for heroin, crack, large amounts of alcohol etc besides crime and prostitution? And do you think sex trafficking no longer exists? This stuff is happening every day, the world isn't a wonderful place with no suffering just because it's "not the 1990s".

Man, I’m out here everyday walking these streets and I can tell you for 100% certain it’s not like that anymore. Does it happen?? YES! But by the very very small minority and definitely nowhere in the millions. My mother was a heroin addict and a stripper/prostitute, and my dad was a drug dealer. I grew up in that environment in Atlanta Georgia in the early 2000’s. I know first hand because I’ve seen it and experienced and IM telling YOU that it’s not the same. You can’t tell me otherwise because If anyone knows what the “real world” is like, it’s me.

2 minutes ago, Damien Scott said:

No way. Don't get me wrong, Elizabeta is a good character but I can't see a fat woman running around shooting and beating people, jumping off buildings, getting out of a moving car, jumping on a moving truck, etc. That's why I think GTA protagonists should always be phisically fit men who are able to do these things.

 

Before someone says ''b-but Michael was old and fat'', remember that he wasn't even that old (45 years old) nor fat and he was an athlete.

He would have a heart attack if he sprinted for more than 60 seconds 

[billiejoearmstrong8 5,479]

Just now, SonofLosSantos said:

Man, I’m out here everyday walking these streets and I can tell you for 100% certain it’s not like that anymore. Does it happen?? YES! But by the very very small minority and definitely nowhere in the millions. My mother was a heroin addict and a stripper/prostitute, and my dad was a drug dealer. I grew up in that environment in Atlanta Georgia in the early 2000’s. I know first hand because I’ve seen it and experienced and IM telling YOU that it’s not the same. You can’t tell me otherwise because If anyone knows what the “real world” is like, it’s me.

I'm glad if there's less of it where you are now. That doesn't mean it isn't still happening, or that prostitution that happens off the streets is all high class and free of problems. What you witness personally can't tell you the numbers or percentages nationwide or worldwide.

[Raavi 23,705]

9 minutes ago, Damien Scott said:

No way. Don't get me wrong, Elizabeta is a good character but I can't see a fat woman running around shooting and beating people, jumping off buildings, getting out of a moving car, jumping on a moving truck, etc. That's why I think GTA protagonists should always be phisically fit men who are able to do these things.

 

Before someone says ''b-but Michael was old and fat'', remember that he wasn't even that old (45 years old) nor fat and he was an athlete.

It's funny how you lot try to hide your misogyny behind a veil of "but mah realism". You do realise that the vast majority of physically fit men cannot jump off buildings, out of moving cars, onto moving trucks without getting seriously if not mortally injured, right? Nor can they, last I checked, pull a RPG and a whole arsenal of other weapons and explosives out of their rectums. 

[Jason 28,152]

 

look at this Olympian level athlete, phwoar

[IS90 1,735]

All I know is I don't want another "Two and a half men" rendition and would be happy to play as a human considering their latest work.

Edited May 4, 2020 by BlueLion90

[Damien Scott 840]

19 hours ago, SonofLosSantos said:

He would have a heart attack if he sprinted for more than 60 seconds 

At the beginning of the game, all he used to do was drink and sit by the pool but he eventually got in shape otherwise he wouldn't be able to do all the heists and stuff he's done.

 

19 hours ago, Raavi said:

It's funny how you lot try to hide your misogony behind a veil of "but mah realism".

Please, don't call me misogynist, I don't hate women and I don't think men are better. I just like to play as a character I can relate to. 

 

Quote

You do realise that the vast majority of physically fit men cannot jump off buildings, out of moving cars, onto moving trucks without getting seriously if not mortally injured, right? Nor can they, last I checked, pull a RPG and out of their rectums. 

Yeah, but we don't play as average men. In fact, GTA protagonists are usually ex-military or criminals who are in the game for too long so they would be able to do those things. 

 

19 hours ago, Jason said:

look at this Olympian level athlete, phwoar

Do you know that you can't complete some missions with Fat CJ? Average/muscular CJ is the canon one.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Damien Scott

[billiejoearmstrong8 5,479]

1 hour ago, Damien Scott said:

 

 

Please, don't call me misogynist, I don't hate women and I don't think men are better. I just like to play as a character I can relate to. 

 

 

So if it's a man you can automatically relate and if it's a woman you automatically can't? That just seems like a narrow view. Being the same gender as a character can help but either a male or female character could still have things you relate to or things you don't relate to. Any GTA protagonist is going to be different to you in many ways, I don't get a difference in gender being the only one that presents a problem.

 

Like, I'm female and I can relate to male GTA protagonists and other male characters. But I also don't see why male fans of the series deserve another protagonist that shares their gender any more than I deserve one. GTA has a wide range of fans and either choice shouldn't be a problem.

Edited May 4, 2020 by billiejoearmstrong8

[The Wolf Man 1,455]

GTA protagonist:

- Can handle every weapon out there like a pro (from a pistol to a RPG).

- Can drive cars, bikes, boats, helicopters, airplanes etc. like a pro.

 

No man in the world is capable of such things.

 

[Raavi 23,705]

1 minute ago, Damien Scott said:

Please, don't call me misogynist, I don't hate women and I don't think men are better. I just like to play as a character I can relate to. 

So let me get this straight, you find it easier to relate to a bank robber that is in WITSEC and a psychopath that paints the walls of an apartment red with the blood of its victims than you would any female protagonist?

 

1 minute ago, Damien Scott said:

Yeah, but we don't play as average men. In fact, GTA protagonists are usually ex-military or criminals who are in the game for too long so they would be able to do those things. 

TIL ex-military and seasoned criminals have rectums able to store an NRA convention worth of firearms. In all seriousness, even the most cream of the crop S.O. guys like Navy Seals, SWCC, MARSOC etc get injured pulling stunts like jumping on moving vehicles and leaping off structures sans parachute. And the only recent Protagonist that gets even remotely close to S.O. is Niko.

[Lonely-Martin 34,578]

3 hours ago, Zapper said:

And the only western I remember with a good deal of swearing in it is Deadwood and I think I read an article once that said Milch took pretty big liberties with swearing in Deadwood, because if they used swearing from the time period, it would just sound hilariously dated and inoffensive and not as impactful as he intended it to be.

I read that too. Love the show myself but it's one of a kind for how harsh the language and treatment of women/minorities/people in general for a western. Even with Unforgiven, they didn't dwell on the poor treatment and be too explicit with its content even though it was a big part of the story. With most westerns thibgs like that are implied rather than gratuitous.

[Damien Scott 840]

40 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

So if it's a man you can automatically relate and if it's a woman you automatically can't? 

35 minutes ago, Raavi said:

So let me get this straight, you find it easier to relate to a bank robber that is in WITSEC and a psychopath that paints the walls of an apartment red with the blood of its victims than you would any female protagonist?

Not relating to the character isn't the only reason why I don't want a female protagonist. I don't think it would work. Playing as a badass mf who frequents strip clubs, picks up hookers and commits all kinds of crimes is what makes GTA, GTA, you know? The way I see it, a female protagonist in the series would be like a male protagonist in Tomb Raider or Mirror's Edge. It simply wouldn't fit.

 

Quote

TIL ex-military and seasoned criminals have rectums able to store an NRA convention worth of firearms. 

I wasn't talking about that lol. Pulling RPGs and rifles out of their asses/pockets is just a gameplay thing, I believe that'll change in the next installment by the way.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Damien Scott

[TheSantader25 7,224]

They better not change that actually. That's part of the fun in the series. One minute you're tearing some guy with a Chainsaw, the next minute you're blowing up the traffic with an RPG. That's part of the charm of the series. This is not Red Dead. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by TheSantader25

[Collibosher 2,040]

8 minutes ago, Damien Scott said:

Not relating to the character isn't the only reason why I don't want a female protagonist. I don't think it would work. Playing as a badass mf who frequents strip clubs, picks up hookers and commits all kinds of crimes is what makes GTA, GTA, you know? The way I see it, a female protagonist in the series would be like a male protagonist in Tomb Raider or Mirror's Edge. It simply wouldn't fit.

It would fit, look, someone photoshopped some random dude into Tomb Raider:

[billiejoearmstrong8 5,479]

12 minutes ago, Damien Scott said:

Not relating to the character isn't the only reason why I don't want a female protagonist. I don't think it would work. Playing as a badass mf who frequents strip clubs, picks up hookers and commits all kinds of crimes is what makes GTA, GTA, you know? The way I see it, a female protagonist in the series would be like a male protagonist in Tomb Raider or Mirror's Edge. It simply wouldn't fit.

 

I wasn't talking about that lol. Pulling RPGs and rifles out of their asses/pockets is just a gameplay thing, I believe that'll change in the next installment by the way.

The strip club and hookers part has only ever been an optional side activity and not a big part of the protagonists' personality. Being a badass and committing crime (the actual important traits of a GTA protagonist) aren't exclusively male things. The only reason a male protagonist wouldn't fit in Tomb Raider or Mirror's Edge is it's always the same protagonist in those games, if it had a selection of different ones through the series a male one would work just fine. Part of what makes GTA protagonists great is their variety.

[Orbea Occam 1,433]

Maybe @Damien Scott could have worded things in a way where he didn't make out as if men were physically superior to women but ultimately I don't see an issue with him wanting a male protagonist over a female one. I personally don't think a female protagonist for GTA would work but thats not me saying females don't have a place as lead characters in video games, they evidently work as seen in Tomb Raider and TLOU. But for Grand Theft Auto I just think a male protagonist is more suited.

 

 

[Jabalous 8,091]

54 minutes ago, Dark Rosewood Varnish said:

Maybe @Damien Scott could have worded things in a way where he didn't make out as if men were physically superior to women but ultimately I don't see an issue with him wanting a male protagonist over a female one. I personally don't think a female protagonist for GTA would work but thats not me saying females don't have a place as lead characters in video games, they evidently work as seen in Tomb Raider and TLOU. But for Grand Theft Auto I just think a male protagonist is more suited.

 

True. How many women do we know that work in hardcore crime? drug and human trafficking? assassinations? massacres? serial killers? I'd wager that if they go to search for them, they would be be able to count them on their fingers, if any. Females are not fit for the hardcore crime world, and so why they shouldn't be forcibly put into the shoes of a Grand Theft Auto protagonist. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jabalous

[Raavi 23,705]

6 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

Females are not fit for the hardcore crime world

Funny you should say that.

 

https://eumostwanted.eu

https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/View-Red-Notices#

 

Crime has no gender.

[Lonely-Martin 34,578]

25 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

True. How many women do we know that work in hardcore crime? drug and human trafficking? assassinations? massacres? serial killers? I'd wager that if they go to search for them, they would be be able to count them on their fingers, if any. Females are not fit for the hardcore crime world, and so why they shouldn't be forcibly put into the shoes of a Grand Theft Auto protagonist. 

I just googled a list of famous female American criminals and it has 269 entries on Wikipedia, lol.

 

One I know of outside USA is Griselda Blanco from the cartels in Mexico, vicious bitch that one. And if it's Vice City next, she'd probably be a good one to use as inspiration.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Lonely-Martin
Wording.

[Jabalous 8,091]

23 minutes ago, Raavi said:

Funny you should say that.

 

https://eumostwanted.eu

https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/View-Red-Notices#

 

Crime has no gender.

As I wrote, there are, but you'd be counting them on your fingers, and you''ll find them a very small minority relative to men who are engaged in the same activities. You will also find them engaging in one or two type of crimes that usually do not involve violence, and some of them like Griselda Blanco act like a leader and not an executor. Grand Theft Auto protagonists are always executors. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jabalous

[Raavi 23,705]

Just now, Jabalous said:

As I wrote, there are, but you'd be counting them on your fingers

You must have a lot of fingers.

 

 

 

[Jason 28,152]

The idea that we should be avoiding a female protag or a gay protag or anything of the sort because female criminals or whatever are statistically rarer than a male criminal is... such a crazy line of thinking it's basically nothing more than "I don't want X protagonist because I don't want it". Which is fine, but using statistics or anything of the sort to justify it is daft.

 

Stories, particularly video game stories, have always dealt with protagonists that are a statistical anomaly. World class bank robbers aren't common, drug kingpins aren't common, serial killers aren't common, etc etc. We are already playing characters that would be very rare in the real world - if not completely impossible or non-existent. If there's one example of any of those things happening in the real world (and there are far more than one), then it works for a video game story. In some cases there simply does not need to be a single example... cause, ya'know, there's no such thing as Jedi's or Witchers in real life and all that.

[Jabalous 8,091]

22 minutes ago, Raavi said:

You must have a lot of fingers.

That's what I found in the links you sent me. The first one (Europe's Most Wanted) has 10 women on the list, so only ~21%. Apart from Daniela Klette, all females on the list are wanted for non-violent crimes (e.g. organizing prostitution, trafficking and selling drugs, thefts with a group of male criminals). In the other link, the Interpol list, more than 3/4 of the women are wanted by Russia for their links with Islamic terrorist groups. They probably were acting as secretaries or a cover for the activities of these groups. Thank you for proving my point! 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jabalous

[FAH-Q 807]

Who cares the gender of the protag as long as they make it work. The protag could be an Ewok as long as R* makes it work.

[Raavi 23,705]

3 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

That's what I found in the links you sent me. The first one (Europe's Most Wanted) has 10 women on the list, so only ~21%. Apart from Daniela Klette, all females on the list are wanted for non-violent crimes (e.g. organizing prostitution, trafficking and selling drugs, thefts with a group of male criminals). 

 

You 1 hour ago:

 

1 hour ago, Jabalous said:

How many women do we know that work in hardcore crime? drug and human trafficking? [...] I'd wager that if they go to search for them, they would be be able to count them on their fingers.

 

Keep moving those goalposts.

 

13 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

 the Interpol list, more than 3/4 of the women are wanted by Russia for their links with Islamic terrorist groups. They probably were acting as secretaries or a cover for these groups.

 

Right. Because all women in terrorist organisations are just secretaries.

 

Granted, your views on women might rather be coloured by the fact you hail from a place where up until recently women weren't even allowed to drive.