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Retro_Causality

I love Rockstar, but i hope they update their gameplay mechanics for VI

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Jabalous
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

I said "mindless shoot'em up". It's just shoot from cover at the swarm of robots while you make your way down a predetermined path. As opposed to games where the enemies and environments allow for strategy and thought.

 

As for that mission, it would be as simple as the manor having more than one working entrance. You'd still get that cool, cinematic walk up to the house and the tense standoff that follows, but from there you'd have the choice to either just stand in front of the house and mow down the enemies that spawn out of it, or you could use the gunfight in the front of the house as a distraction and sneak in through a side entrance and search the place yourself.

 

When you get to the barricaded door it triggers the swarm of enemies outside which then leads to the final cutscene as it did before. It still wouldn't be a completely free and open-ended mission but, like I said, they don't all have to be. A mix of both would be ideal.

I actually once tried to sneak into the house from the windows on the southern side. I shot the glass and window frames and then I was able to walk into the house, but eventually I couldn't walk a couple of meters without the game forcing me into a fail state by showing Hosea falling into his death by a bullet. It's fair to say that, in this situation, one would wonder why the mission was designed as such and not allowed us to continue searching the house while the shootout is taking place outside. There would be a couple of issues to this point from a designer point of view.

 

1. It was too easy for the player. The shootout started, the player ran to the back and sneaked into the house. He was not challenged in the shootout and wasn't immersed into the thrill of it with the rest of the gang. Some portion of the story/dialogue was lost for the player by doing this.

 

2. How would the gang be able to clear the entrance of the house so that they can later join Arthur who already sneaked in? Should the gang be able to do so without the player's help?

 

3. In the case of Arthur being able to sneak in, search everywhere and even interrogate Catherine Braithwaites about the whereabouts of Jack, how would then the last cinema-driven interaction between the gang and Catherine take place? Would R* be required to create more scenes that would trigger for this specific scenario? Couldn't that be asking for too much if we generalize this kind of thinking over the rest of the story missions?

Edited by Jabalous

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The Jungz
On 4/27/2020 at 6:42 AM, Mister Pink said:

I agree. Allowing the player to be creative, plan and use their own skills to complete a task is much preferable than the hand-holding that we see in recent games. 

I absolutely love the mission in GTA IV given by Francis McReary where you have to assassinate Clarence Little, a young gangbanger, in an project. Several times, I approached the mission the way it was initially intended to be done, going straight up to his goons and opening fire, slowly making my way to the top floor and then having the option to execute him or spare his life. 

 

But after subsequent playthroughs, I thought this mission was too long and a repeat of many more in the game (shooting gallery) and that's when I noticed the big crane next door. I climbed up, got my sniper out and by miracle, I could see Clarence Little from there. I sniped him in the head and because this is not GTA V where everything is shallow and cheap, his goons had no idea where Clarence's final blow had come from, meaning I could make a stealthy escape and complete the mission in seconds. 

 

That, was f*cking awesome. I love the fact that the game doesn't tell you that you have this possibility. It doesn't hold your hand and make you fail the mission because you weighted your options. Hell you could probably rocket launcher his ass from across the street and still complete it.  And another great thing is that by doing it this way initially, someone would have no idea that they perhaps could've spared the guy in the first place. Making you a true, cold blooded assassin. Go in, complete the task, and no questions asked.

 

We need more of that.

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Xiled
1 hour ago, The Jungz said:

and that's when I noticed the big crane next door. I climbed up, got my sniper out and by miracle, I could see Clarence Little from there. I sniped him in the head and because this is not GTA V where everything is shallow and cheap, his goons had no idea where Clarence's final blow had come from, meaning I could make a stealthy escape and complete the mission in seconds. 

Mission failed! You were supposed to chase Clarence and kill over 2 dozen enemies than choose what happens to him!

 

Wait this is gta iv where you have freedom in missions unlike gta v. 

 

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Nappy

augh....Gta V’s mission design

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, The Jungz said:

I absolutely love the mission in GTA IV given by Francis McReary where you have to assassinate Clarence Little, a young gangbanger, in an project. Several times, I approached the mission the way it was initially intended to be done, going straight up to his goons and opening fire, slowly making my way to the top floor and then having the option to execute him or spare his life. 

 

But after subsequent playthroughs, I thought this mission was too long and a repeat of many more in the game (shooting gallery) and that's when I noticed the big crane next door. I climbed up, got my sniper out and by miracle, I could see Clarence Little from there. I sniped him in the head and because this is not GTA V where everything is shallow and cheap, his goons had no idea where Clarence's final blow had come from, meaning I could make a stealthy escape and complete the mission in seconds. 

 

That, was f*cking awesome. I love the fact that the game doesn't tell you that you have this possibility. It doesn't hold your hand and make you fail the mission because you weighted your options. Hell you could probably rocket launcher his ass from across the street and still complete it.  And another great thing is that by doing it this way initially, someone would have no idea that they perhaps could've spared the guy in the first place. Making you a true, cold blooded assassin. Go in, complete the task, and no questions asked.

 

We need more of that.

There's also a way to make him run out of the projects and start escaping by car so you kill him in a car chase (I think if you don't follow him closely enough at the beginning). Or if you start shooting up the place before going to the marker and calling Francis he flees the area immediately and there's a unique phone call explaining yourself. And of course even if you just follow the scripted way you can choose which roof to chase him to, and choose whether to kill or spare him, and at the end you're left to escape the police so that can vary too. I also love missions like this! Perfect balance of scripted stuff and freedom. That's what they should aspire to with GTA missions.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Algonquin Assassin
6 hours ago, The Jungz said:

I absolutely love the mission in GTA IV given by Francis McReary where you have to assassinate Clarence Little, a young gangbanger, in an project. Several times, I approached the mission the way it was initially intended to be done, going straight up to his goons and opening fire, slowly making my way to the top floor and then having the option to execute him or spare his life. 

 

But after subsequent playthroughs, I thought this mission was too long and a repeat of many more in the game (shooting gallery) and that's when I noticed the big crane next door. I climbed up, got my sniper out and by miracle, I could see Clarence Little from there. I sniped him in the head and because this is not GTA V where everything is shallow and cheap, his goons had no idea where Clarence's final blow had come from, meaning I could make a stealthy escape and complete the mission in seconds. 

 

That, was f*cking awesome. I love the fact that the game doesn't tell you that you have this possibility. It doesn't hold your hand and make you fail the mission because you weighted your options. Hell you could probably rocket launcher his ass from across the street and still complete it.  And another great thing is that by doing it this way initially, someone would have no idea that they perhaps could've spared the guy in the first place. Making you a true, cold blooded assassin. Go in, complete the task, and no questions asked.

 

We need more of that.

There's a good number of missions like this is in GTA IV. In "Dust Off" it's possible to steal the helicopter without needing to kill anyone at all. In "Undress to Kill" I block the back entrance with a car so they can't go out the back..In "Escuela Of The Streets " sometimes I drop in from the roof instead of through the window near the front door and there are many others.

 

Sometimes the game will drop hints here and there of different approaches, but it's more fun and interesting IMO to go off the beaten path and it wont punish like GTA V and RDR2 too often unfortunately if you don't don't conform to exactly what they tell you to do.  Where GTA IV might not have as many of the big, action piece type missions that most GTA games have mission design like this is what keeps me coming back even if I've done every approach as I can always change this up in other playthroughs.

 

This is exactly what I want from GTA VI's missions. Immense replay value that makes me want to play through over and over again like I have with GTA IV. 

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The Jungz

I should make myself clear that while I'd like a return of those types of freedom giving, open ended missions, I also think GTA VI needs to balance it out with the usual scripted stuff. It's what made Three Leaf Clover so damn exhilarating. While most of GTA IV has you doing rather mundane missions with basic objectives and executions, that mission felt like a damn action movie scene. It was so good that it basically laid the ground for the next installment.

 

But these missions only work in small doses imo, with the right amount of "narrative motivation" behind it. Too many of them and not only do they become boring but they also start making no sense whatsoever because the writers are grasping at straws to give a reason for the mission to exist in the first place.

 

For example, the mission Minor Turbulence in GTA V (Trevor hijacks a Merryweather cargo plane)  is heavily scripted and probably one of the most Hollywood-esque moments of the game. Yet, with every play through, I find myself dreading to play it because of how utterly uninterested I am with what's going on. It serves absolutely no purpose to the story other than to give the FIB an excuse to contemplate offing Trevor in the end.

 

Another example (SPOILERS) would be the entire 2nd part of the epilogue in RDR 2 having I believe 7 of its 11 missions have some form of shootouts in them. I understand the need to have some action sprinkled here and there to keep the player invested through what is essentially more than a fifth of the game but imo, those missions absolutely undermined the finale when John goes after Micah. The ending itself is very scripted, the game even forces you what outfit to wear and that's completely fine. It's the ending this series deserved. But there's no denying it didn't feel as awesome as it should have been if you hadn't spent the last two hours killing 100 men for Sadie or fighting Skinner Brothers.

 

Rockstar needs to learn to hold themselves back and make those big set pieces pay off. We need to yearn for them, not yawn.

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DexMacLeod
On 5/11/2020 at 10:01 AM, Jabalous said:

1. It was too easy for the player. The shootout started, the player ran to the back and sneaked into the house. He was not challenged in the shootout and wasn't immersed into the thrill of it with the rest of the gang. Some portion of the story/dialogue was lost for the player by doing this.

They could always throw a few more enemies inside the house and/or guarding the back door. Maybe when/if you make too much noise taking them out it draws the attention of some of the guys.

 

I don't see how much, if anything would get lost. Maybe you wouldn't hear your allies informing you when another wave of NPC's exit the house but you wouldn't need that if you're out back.

 

On 5/11/2020 at 10:01 AM, Jabalous said:

2. How would the gang be able to clear the entrance of the house so that they can later join Arthur who already sneaked in? Should the gang be able to do so without the player's help?

Yeah, I think they should be able to handle themselves. More than they were able to, at least. That was one of the more frustrating parts of the game, to be honest. When you were near your companions they were incredibly capable but if you stepped too far away they just, instantly died.

 

On 5/11/2020 at 10:01 AM, Jabalous said:

3. In the case of Arthur being able to sneak in, search everywhere and even interrogate Catherine Braithwaites about the whereabouts of Jack, how would then the last cinema-driven interaction between the gang and Catherine take place? Would R* be required to create more scenes that would trigger for this specific scenario? Couldn't that be asking for too much if we generalize this kind of thinking over the rest of the story missions?

I think it would just work out so that when you find the barricaded door it triggers a cut scene with the gang making their way into the house and everything plays out exactly like it did originally. You can't get the door open, another round of NPC's attack the house, you take them out, and then you break the door down and the whole interrogation cutscene plays out like it did.

 

Not every story mission needs to be this open ended. They could all have varying degrees of restriction. One that really bugged me was the one where you have to "sneak into" the office at the oil refinery. There was literally only one path you could take to get inside and upstairs and all the enemies on your route just happened to turn and look the other way when you got near.

 

That mission would have been so much better if they had just told us there was a guy with a thing somewhere in the refinery and left us to find him on our own. Instead they walk us along the one and only possible path and that whole half of the mission doesn't have any more player agency than a cutscene.

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Nappy

I want the gunplay to be like in RDR and Max Payne series.

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TheSantader25

-Gun Play and Cover System should be at least identical to Max Payne 3.

 

-Driving should be a mixture of V and IV. 

 

-Mission design should also be a mixture of open ended missions(for creativity and replay value) and scripted ones for story-based missions to have stronger impact and being more memorable or having epic set pieces. 

 

-Hand to hand combat has to go a long way. It would nice to bring gyms back and learn new skills like Sleeping Dogs abd and have different fighting styles. 

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m0b0ss
On 5/13/2020 at 10:06 AM, TheSantader25 said:

-Hand to hand combat has to go a long way. It would nice to bring gyms back and learn new skills like Sleeping Dogs abd and have different fighting styles. 

This would be welcome indeed

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Dark Rosewood Varnish

Why do people love the gun play from Max Payne 3 so much? I mean it's been a while since I played that game but I don't remember it being that much different from other Rockstar titles. 

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KingAJ032304
On 5/23/2020 at 6:47 AM, Dark Rosewood Varnish said:

Why do people love the gun play from Max Payne 3 so much? I mean it's been a while since I played that game but I don't remember it being that much different from other Rockstar titles. 

Funny enough the gunplay itself isn't what so special. It's the detail and care that makes you go "awww"

Edited by KingAJ032304

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Len Lfc
On 5/23/2020 at 11:47 AM, Dark Rosewood Varnish said:

Why do people love the gun play from Max Payne 3 so much? I mean it's been a while since I played that game but I don't remember it being that much different from other Rockstar titles. 

It was a lot more fluid than GTA V.

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GTAhare
30 minutes ago, Len Lfc said:

It was a lot more fluid than GTA V.

It’s quite a head-scrather why the shooting mechanics of Max Payne 3 never made it into future Rockstar titles.

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Len Lfc
4 minutes ago, GTAhare said:

It’s quite a head-scrather why the shooting mechanics of Max Payne 3 never made it into future Rockstar titles.

The logical conclusion would be that it was an artistic or purposeful choice.

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GTAhare
2 minutes ago, Len Lfc said:

The logical conclusion would be that it was an artistic or purposeful choice.

 

It could very well have been but they could’ve ported the mechanics but made them less arcadey so the shooting would be less clunky than it has been. Though to be fair shooting mechanics are only a small part of Rockstar’s open world games. I am wondering with some of the higher-ups described as problematic leaving the company who reportedly at one point fired someone for wanting to improve the mechanics, I am curious if GTA 6 will feature more refined shooting, cover, and movement mechanics. But on the downside have less small details.

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Len Lfc
9 minutes ago, GTAhare said:

 

It could very well have been but they could’ve ported the mechanics but made them less arcadey so the shooting would be less clunky than it has been. Though to be fair shooting mechanics are only a small part of Rockstar’s open world games. I am wondering with some of the higher-ups described as problematic leaving the company who reportedly at one point fired someone for wanting to improve the mechanics, I am curious if GTA 6 will feature more refined shooting, cover, and movement mechanics. But on the downside have less small details.

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere (an I read a lot of Rockstar related stuff. A lot of it crap) about "old british men" making certain decisions, the lock on as default being one of them, because they "don't play the games" or really understand what gamers want. That might of been from 4chan, and been bullsh*t. Either way, if it were true, I wouldn't be shocked. Ubisoft has reportedly had problems similar to that. So it's not uncommon for higher ups to make decisions that the developers wouldn't want.

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GTAhare
8 minutes ago, Len Lfc said:

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere (an I read a lot of Rockstar related stuff. A lot of it crap) about "old british men" making certain decisions, the lock on as default being one of them, because they "don't play the games" or really understand what gamers want. That might of been from 4chan, and been bullsh*t. Either way, if it were true, I wouldn't be shocked. Ubisoft has reportedly had problems similar to that. So it's not uncommon for higher ups to make decisions that the developers wouldn't want.

Ubisoft has had problems like that too? Well we live in an era where secret “insider information” about things isn’t so secret anymore. In general that’s a very good thing as it helps combat abuse but it’s also easy for people to make stuff up. 

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Len Lfc
1 minute ago, GTAhare said:

Ubisoft has had problems like that too? Well we live in an era where secret “insider information” about things isn’t so secret anymore. In general that’s a very good thing as it helps combat abuse but it’s also easy for people to make stuff up. 

Yeah. Not precisely the same. But a higher up cancelling a game because he didn't like it.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-28/ubisoft-s-planned-king-arthur-game-was-nixed-by-ex-creative-head

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ValidTrack

No huge potholes ffs, smoother roads...

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