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Retro_Causality

I love Rockstar, but i hope they update their gameplay mechanics for VI

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Retro_Causality

I love R* always have, always will but i would be lying if I said their gameplay mechanics leave alot to be determined. They just feel somewhat clunky, especially looking at V and RDR 2. I understand alot of this has to do with the RAGE engine's physics but i wish they put more effort into their mechanics

 

Why not just take Max Payne 3's mechanics, which is arguably one of the greatest third person shooters of all time and apply that to the shooting of GTA. You go from making one of the GOAT shooters to mediocre shooting of GTA V and RDR 2.

 

Plus they also need to make better missions that are not super linear and have many approaches. More open ended stuff

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El Penguin Bobo
Posted (edited)

I'd understand if you said V's shooting was mediocre, wish it had more recoil but it was still good gunplay, but RDR2 has the best gunplay to date.

 

Also, I don't really get the whole appeal for open ended missions. Yeah, they're cool at first but there should be a balance between them otherwise, you will get an Ubisoft game with forgettable missions that are basically the same thing rehashed again. Scripted missions make them more memorable and action packed IMO.

Edited by El Penguin Bobo
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The Wolf Man
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Retro_Causality said:

I love R* always have, always will but i would be lying if I said their gameplay mechanics leave alot to be determined. They just feel somewhat clunky, especially looking at V and RDR 2. I understand alot of this has to do with the RAGE engine's physics but i wish they put more effort into their mechanics

 

Why not just take Max Payne 3's mechanics, which is arguably one of the greatest third person shooters of all time and apply that to the shooting of GTA. You go from making one of the GOAT shooters to mediocre shooting of GTA V and RDR 2.

 

Plus they also need to make better missions that are not super linear and have many approaches. More open ended stuff

Indeed. The gameplay can be clunky sometimes.

 

I kinda liked the shooting on both RDR2 and GTA 5, so I disagree with you on that one.

 

About the missions... yes. They're too much linear, way too much. R* basically want us to sit and play through the movie they created and all creative moves from the player are "punished". This is an outdated thinking about missions design for an open world game.

Edited by The Wolf Man
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Shanki
1 hour ago, El Penguin Bobo said:

I'd understand if you said V's shooting was mediocre, wish it had more recoil but it was still good gunplay, but RDR2 has the best gunplay to date.

 

Also, I don't really get the whole appeal for open ended missions. Yeah, they're cool at first but there should be a balance between them otherwise, you will get an Ubisoft game with forgettable missions that are basically the same thing rehashed again. Scripted missions make them more memorable and action packed IMO.

RDR2's combat is really similar to Max Payne 3, but Max Payne 3 still feels a little bit better thanks to it not feeling so clunky.

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Algonquin Assassin

What's wrong with RDR2's shooting mechanics? It has a strong sense of recoil and the guns feel realistic for the time period. Granted GTA V's shooting mechanics don't feel quite as good, but they're still alright. GTA IV's are the best in the series though.

 

Max Payne 3's shooting mechanics are amazing, but it's also a just a third person shooter that doesn't have to deal with a bunch of complex systems like GTA and Red Dead games do so I wouldn't be expecting shooting mechanics like that in a GTA game anytime soon.

 

Regarding the missions I agree, but more specifically fail states. I don't want to fail missions anymore because I slightly deviated or didn't follow the instruction exactly. That is easily the worst thing about GTA V and RDR2. Sometimes linear missions are necessary from a gameplay perspective so I don't mind them though I hope we're encouraged to experiment more in GTA VI, but the ridiculous fail states need to piss off as does the times where the game restricts movement like forced walking for example and it feels like it's taking control.

 

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Nappy

Gta Next needs better animations combat wise. Not that your weapon disappears when you climb or jump somewhere in Gta V.

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Acetaminophen

I really want GTA 6 to have a Mix between Red Dead Redemption 2 and Max Payne 3. 

 

The fluidity and movements in MP3 are some of the best shooting mechanics ive ever played with. 

 

I used to play the Yacht/Panama levels over and over. 

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Shanki
Posted (edited)

Guys, think about it like this. In the last 7 years, we got 2 Rockstar games. GTA V came 2/3 months before current-gen consoles came out. RDR 2 came out 25 months before next-gen consoles come out (a longer time than 2/3 months, sure, but it's still during the end of PS4s/XONEs lifespans). GTA V and arguably even RDR 2 were pushing the limits of the consoles they were originally made for (sure, V came out for PS4/XONE/PC too but a lot of the deep code is still the same old limited code from PS3/X360, either because there is simply no way to make it better or because it was too much work). Both came out near the end of their main consoles' lifespans. GTA VI will come out 1/2/3 years after the launch of next-gen consoles. Remember when GTA IV came out? It came out when X360/PS3 was still young and it shows, back then an game detailed as GTA IV simply didn't exist. We're about to go trough that again with VI (this just incredibly excites me) and i'm willing to bet on that. We all shouldn't worry.

Edited by Shanki
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DexMacLeod

Yeah, I'd love to finally see a worthwhile upgrade to the combat system. I don't have any problems with the way guns "feel" or even the basic mechanics of shooting them, but the enemy A.I. and the mission design felt dated when they used them in GTA IV and neither has changed much since.

 

The enemy A.I. seems to have improved in RDR2 a bit. There's certain situations where enemies actually have to be able to see you in order to know where you are but that seems to only apply to law enforcement in free roam. If they could apply that to the shootouts in missions it'd be great.

 

Mission design seems to just get worse and worse, unfortunately. I don't mind the occasional follow this exact path style missions but they need some variety. RDR2 not only forced you down it's very specific, scripted route but often saddled you with a companion character that told you exactly when to move forward, where enemies are and even occasionally told you exactly who to kill them and how/when to do it.

 

I like a game where I occasionally have to think about what I'm doing. Scouting a location before a gunfight, coming up with a strategy, and then improvising when things go wrong is far more rewarding than just following a basic path and mowing down the mindless enemies that get in the way.

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Mister Pink
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

Mission design seems to just get worse and worse, unfortunately. I don't mind the occasional follow this exact path style missions but they need some variety. RDR2 not only forced you down it's very specific, scripted route but often saddled you with a companion character that told you exactly when to move forward, where enemies are and even occasionally told you exactly who to kill them and how/when to do it.

 

I like a game where I occasionally have to think about what I'm doing. Scouting a location before a gunfight, coming up with a strategy, and then improvising when things go wrong is far more rewarding than just following a basic path and mowing down the mindless enemies that get in the way.

I agree. Allowing the player to be creative, plan and use their own skills to complete a task is much preferable than the hand-holding that we see in recent games. 

 

For me, implementing some real stealth would at least give us two options: guns blazing or stealth. That to me, it's a  huge step in the right direction of having some choice in how to approach missions. And there's evidence Rockstar likes stealth. They've flirted with it alot: The Warriors, Manhunt, San Andreas and to an extent Agent (assuming that was going to be a full-fledged stealth game) all had some form of stealth. 

 

Stealth could allow us to infiltrate a compound, complete tasks (murder X or steal Y) un-detected. It would feel very accomplishing and rewarding to stealthily beat missions. On the flipside, let us plan big guns-blazing operations too. For example, if we can recruit a crew. An option to send your crew to flank the environment while you go down the centre. 

 

Some sort of options to control a team of 3 others like Ghost Recon: Wildlands. Sending your guys over to take out watchmen on posts. While you sneak up and take out the guards hand-to-hand. Missions that reward you for thinking outside the box. Missions that give you 10 ways of solving the puzzle and you as a player need to figure it out. 

 

That was the problem with V's big heist missions. They gave the illusion of choice. But it's just a choice between one big scripted sequence of events vs the other. It's not real time choice of stealth or guns blazing. Sometimes it's fun when you start off in stealth, infiltrate somewhere then your cover is blown and a battle kicks off. That spontaneity is magic. 

 

Make it so, when I do a mission, I can do it completely different than the next guy. When mission designing, stop trying to show us a story of how the mission plays out. Instead, create the objective and play out the scenario of how the user might complete the task in various different ways. I know it's probably insanely hard to do, so the "easiest" way for me to think about it is just design a stealth in the game. 

 

  • Make the player's visibility to NPC's/enemies lower in the shadows and crouch mode.
  • Make the player's visibility lower by shooting out light bulbs.
  • Design sewer access to banks, large buildings in downtown.
  • Design the city with more ladders.
  • Make CCTV a nuisance that can be solved by finding the source of the video (comms room). 
  • Bring back ability to burglarize homes and businesses. 
  • Make some clothing quieter than other clothing. 
  • Make weapon suppressors actually work and mean something.
  • Make it so enemy NPCs have various different types of alertness. If enemy NPC finds dead body, alertness is high. 
  • Make it so that when in battle with some gangs, they will call for reinforcements, thus making stealth a hard but ultimately rewarding option. 
  • Make diguises a thing. If I'm dressed like a repairman or a cleaner, people in restricted building A, don't pay attention. 

Player freedom and creativity should be a priority. It's why RPG's are so much fun and so popular. The player gets to choose, their own style of how they play. Stealth isn't for everyone, I realise that. But it could add a huge dynamic for GTA. It could revolutionize gameplay and how we approach missions. 

 

Approaching a mission where you have to take out a boss in a cocaine warehouse might be fun. You could go in with 3 guys and blast the place up. That's a lot of fun and stealth wont take that away. But I might also want to case the building for weaknesses. Oh, there's a sewer entrance to this building? That might get me through the front door and in. Oh, I cut the whole power out for this building? It might put the NPCs on high alert but at least I can get around in the shadows. I can cut the electricity on this building.. then I leave leave a remote detonated bomb in a industrial van outside the warehouse. I cut the power of the building, then head to the sewer. I then detonate the van so everyone runs outside to see whats going on. Meanwhile, I'm in the dark, getting to the boss: whack!  And then I'm stealthily getting out of there. 

 

I'm out of the compound before anyone even realizes I've whacked the boss. And I would love to do this without Rockstar giving me hints or instructions. This post is long, might make a topic on it. 

 

That and I hope Rockstar were inspired by Sleeping Dog's hand-to-hand combat. GTA V never really rewards you for being on foot. Making hand-to-hand combat fun again. I want to spend time out of my car, fighting people in a fun way. It's the gameplay fundamentals. 

Edited by Mister Pink
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Dark Rosewood Varnish

RDR2 had the best shooting mechanics of any Rockstar game thus far if you ask me. They just felt the most satisfying, realistic and the shots just really had a sense of weight behind them, if thats the best way to describe it. Also while it took some getting used to the player movement in RDR2 was brilliant as well, again probably the best in a Rockstar game to date.

 

It's funny because when it came out I never had an issue with GTA V's movement physics, but playing recently I've noticed the player physics are actually quite bad. Just things like jumping to catch a ledge only to just crash face first into whatever you're trying to get on top of. Theres also that awful combat stance whenever you fire a weapon or have police after you, maybe some might not see it as a problem but I hated being forced into a running stance - it just takes control away from the player. 

 

The shooting physics in V were ok but they just weren't satisfying, they felt some what flat.

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GR7
On 4/26/2020 at 7:35 PM, Retro_Causality said:

Why not just take Max Payne 3's mechanics, which is arguably one of the greatest third person shooters of all time and apply that to the shooting of GTA. You go from making one of the GOAT shooters to mediocre shooting of GTA V and RDR 2.

 

One thing to remember is Max Payne constantly runs with his gun already raised in a game where you do nothing but shoot people. In GTA and RDR the characters need to be capable of much more which means something has to give control-wise. I personally think GTAV has the superior aiming mechanics to RDR2. Lightly hold R2 and you can run and gun very similar to how you could in MP3, the problem is you never really have to unless you free aim or are out of the lock-on range.

 

Narrow lock-on from RDR2 needs to be the one and only auto aim going forward. Not having an aiming system to fall back on that literally magnetises to the an enemy in your general view will force them to tighten up the aiming mechanics I feel. I'm pretty sure MP3 was intended to be a free aim experience and look how that turned out.

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MyNameIsNotImportantBro

I really want IV Physics to be in VI ( except for car driving, it was really heavy to drive a car )  

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Gettin up
1 hour ago, OmarMohammed said:

I really want IV Physics to be in VI ( except for car driving, it was really heavy to drive a car )  

Wtf opposite here. I want V physics for running (an example), but driving felt better in IV.

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Lordani_66
13 hours ago, Gettin up said:

Wtf opposite here. I want V physics for running (an example), but driving felt better in IV.

You can be sure that VI will NOT have boat driving physics of IV.

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Algonquin Assassin
2 hours ago, Lordani_66 said:

boat driving physics of IV.

*Yawn*

 

How original and creative of you. 

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Lordani_66
2 hours ago, SonOfLiberty said:

*Yawn*

 

How original and creative of you. 

Not a counter argument. IV physics were like those of boats and R* will never revert to this again. It would be a massive downgrade.

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0909090
On 4/27/2020 at 12:42 PM, Mister Pink said:

That was the problem with V's big heist missions. They gave the illusion of choice. But it's just a choice between one big scripted sequence of events vs the other.

Yeah that's the problem. Whenever Rockstar tries to give us at least a few options on how to play a specific mission, they put an immense effort into each possible scenario - different cutscenes, lots of dialogue etc. They want to make sure that every aspect of a particular mission is as detailed as it can be, and they also want to tell a specific story down to little details. With this mindset it would be impossible to create a game with truly open ended missions (for example like Breath of the Wild). I would love if GTA got a radical overhaul in terms of gameplay, but I don't see Rockstar changing their design philosophy anytime soon. I am sure I would enjoy VI even with the old mission design (at least for the first playthrough :P), but I will surely be a bit disappointed if that's the case.

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GTA-Biker
Posted (edited)

While there's always room for improvement,I don't know how reasonable would it be to expect the shooting mechanics to be as good as in Max Payne 3 in a GTA game.Max Payne games are shooting games,with their primary focus being shooting mechanics (the melee combat is basic, there's no driving, there's no side activities and minigames, etc.).On the other hand,GTA games are open world games that have to focus on multiple different activities (shooting, melee combat, driving, platforming, etc.) and have all of them be at least decent,open world games like GTA are basically jack of all trades without having to necessarily be a master of any.

But if I had to choose,I'd rather have them improve the driving physics.I honestly think even GTA SA had better driving physics than GTA 5,it feels like in SA they were at least trying to make driving as good as possible on a limited hardware,while in GTA 5 it's like they made driving as dumbed down as possible on purpose despite having potential to make it better.

Edited by GTA-Biker
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Algonquin Assassin
13 hours ago, Lordani_66 said:

Not a counter argument. IV physics were like those of boats and R* will never revert to this again. It would be a massive downgrade.

For many people going back to GTA IV's driving physics (albeit with some minor tweaks) would be a massive improvement more like it. 

 

On a serious note I know R* probably wont go back to GTA IV's driving physics entirely and I think GTA VI will be a sweet spot between GTA IV and GTA V which realistically would probably be the best outcome than creating a divide again..

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iiCriminnaaL 49
8 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

(albeit with some minor tweaks)

If only you were playing on PC... 😜

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DexMacLeod
8 hours ago, 0909090 said:

Yeah that's the problem. Whenever Rockstar tries to give us at least a few options on how to play a specific mission, they put an immense effort into each possible scenario - different cutscenes, lots of dialogue etc. They want to make sure that every aspect of a particular mission is as detailed as it can be, and they also want to tell a specific story down to little details. With this mindset it would be impossible to create a game with truly open ended missions (for example like Breath of the Wild). I would love if GTA got a radical overhaul in terms of gameplay, but I don't see Rockstar changing their design philosophy anytime soon. I am sure I would enjoy VI even with the old mission design (at least for the first playthrough :P), but I will surely be a bit disappointed if that's the case.

The thing is, I think they could still get all their story details out while still opening the missions up a bit. RDR2's missions often boil down to watching a cutscene, going to a location where things eventually devolve into a massive shootout, then meeting up with your companion character for another cutscene.

 

All they'd have to do in that formula is give us more strategy options during the shootout portion. Let us try to stealth our way through the situation or draw the enemies attention one way then sneak behind a building and flank them. Then, once everyone's dead, give us a prompt to go talk to "X character" for the closing cutscene.  

On the driving physics front I think some cars should handle like they did in IV and some should handle like they did in V. Ideally I want the driving to feel more in line with a Forza Horizon type game but that seems like asking for too much.

 

1 hour ago, GTA-Biker said:

While there's always room for improvement,I don't know how reasonable would it be to expect the shooting mechanics to be as good as in Max Payne 3 in a GTA game.Max Payne games are shooting games,with their primary focus being shooting mechanics (the melee combat is basic, there's no driving, there's no side activities and minigames, etc.).On the other hand,GTA games are open world games that have to focus on multiple different activities (shooting, melee combat, driving, platforming, etc.) and have all of them be at least decent,open world games like GTA are basically jack of all trades without having to necessarily be a master of any.

I always just assumed that different aspects of the gameplay are handled by different teams. Sort of like how the people that model the buildings aren't the same people who model the cars. Either way, with how much time these games spend in development you'd think they'd be able to improve every aspect of the game pretty significantly if they wanted to.

 

The problem is, Rockstar seems almost desperate to make their games as accessible as possible. RDR2 often felt like a game that was made for people who'd never played a video game before.

 

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Lordani_66
8 hours ago, SonOfLiberty said:

For many people going back to GTA IV's driving physics (albeit with some minor tweaks) would be a massive improvement more like it. 

 

On a serious note I know R* probably wont go back to GTA IV's driving physics entirely and I think GTA VI will be a sweet spot between GTA IV and GTA V which realistically would probably be the best outcome than creating a divide again..

I agree. I wouldn't touch most sports and supercars but older cars, bikes, trucks and bicycles need a more realistic model but I don't mean that they should sway like a plant on a wind when turning when doing 20 miles per hour.

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el carlitos

When talking about mission design I would prefer a mix of GTA IV and V. For some major missions I accept linear mission design as they allow some epic story telling. But the main part of the missions should be non linear. They should give us the goal of the mission, but not tell us how to do it. For example, Kill person X. Let us chase him or be creative and place a sticky bomb at tactical place, make road blockads with trucks before starting the mission to force the person X to move where we want him to move. Endless possibilities.

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0909090

 

11 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

The problem is, Rockstar seems almost desperate to make their games as accessible as possible. RDR2 often felt like a game that was made for people who'd never played a video game before.

Rockstar games have always been very easy and they only got easier as time went on. That will likely never change, keep in mind that GTA and RDR are very casual games that are set to appeal to the largest possible audience. With the insane production values in RDR2, I am not one bit surprised that they made sure that everyone can complete the game and experience the whole story, regardless of their skill. 😛 Give how successful Rockstar is, they might not even change their gameplay formula, because there is no point if people are buying their games. I like their games but at the same time I feel no incentive to replay them because I would get the exact same experience as before.

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gta7dev
On 4/26/2020 at 2:55 PM, El Penguin Bobo said:

I'd understand if you said V's shooting was mediocre, wish it had more recoil but it was still good gunplay, but RDR2 has the best gunplay to date.

 

Also, I don't really get the whole appeal for open ended missions. Yeah, they're cool at first but there should be a balance between them otherwise, you will get an Ubisoft game with forgettable missions that are basically the same thing rehashed again. Scripted missions make them more memorable and action packed IMO.

What people are generally complaining about is that missions are way way too linear. If I don't go in a straight line from A to B I fail the mission. The fail states are absolutely ridiculous, you do anything along the way on a mission = instant fail. You try to be creative about how you kill a guy = instant fail.

 

Yes I agree don't make the missions open-ended because then they drop in quality, but give the illusion that they are by removing these dumb fail states.

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DexMacLeod
On 4/26/2020 at 1:55 PM, El Penguin Bobo said:

Also, I don't really get the whole appeal for open ended missions. Yeah, they're cool at first but there should be a balance between them otherwise, you will get an Ubisoft game with forgettable missions that are basically the same thing rehashed again. Scripted missions make them more memorable and action packed IMO.

They shouldn't be open ended. There would still need to be limits on what can and can't be done and where you can and can't go but even just a modicum of freedom would go a long way. Honestly, I felt like RDR2's missions were more repetitive than Ubisoft's tend to be. They're more memorable, sure, but not really for their gameplay or anything we as the player actually do.

 

In a Rockstar game I tend to remember the mission for its set pieces and story bits more than anything else. On the other hand, with an Ubisoft game, I don't always remember what part of the story a lot of missions were from or why I was even doing what I was doing, but I remember the strategy I was trying to employ, where it went wrong, and what I'd like to try the next time.

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El Penguin Bobo
1 hour ago, gta7dev said:

What people are generally complaining about is that missions are way way too linear. If I don't go in a straight line from A to B I fail the mission. The fail states are absolutely ridiculous, you do anything along the way on a mission = instant fail. You try to be creative about how you kill a guy = instant fail.

Yeah, that's very annoying. They made a start (kinda), with GTA V, and with RDR2, they somehow made it worse.

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RenegadeAngel
1 hour ago, gta7dev said:

What people are generally complaining about is that missions are way way too linear. If I don't go in a straight line from A to B I fail the mission. The fail states are absolutely ridiculous, you do anything along the way on a mission = instant fail. You try to be creative about how you kill a guy = instant fail.

 

Yes I agree don't make the missions open-ended because then they drop in quality, but give the illusion that they are by removing these dumb fail states.

They should at least make the fail indication sound less noisy. I hate when in GTA V I'd punch Lester, do something minor or goofy to fail a mission and that annoying sound would pop up like it's a f*cking nuclear war!

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El Penguin Bobo
5 minutes ago, RenegadeAngel said:

They should at least make the fail indication sound less noisy. I hate when in GTA V I'd punch Lester, do something minor or goofy to fail a mission and that annoying sound would pop up like it's a f*cking nuclear war!

Last gen mission failed/wasted sound effect is much better. I don't know what they did with the next gen sound, but it's f*cking irritating having to hear it everytime I die.

 

Last gen was more chill with it.

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