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IndianaLiam1

What's your opinion on the Houser leave?

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SneakyDeaky
17 hours ago, Original Light said:

I don't believe we'll see an effect.


When Leslie Benzies left Rockstar Games, everyone was under the impression that Red Dead Redemption 2 would suffer because of it. This was the first Rockstar title that didn't have Leslie's touch. In reality, the title came out and it pretty much perfected/expanded everything RDR1 did right, and the writing was still top notch.

I've seen this brought up time and time again and it is such a poor argument. Benzies was not creatively crucial for RDR 1, his job at the nigh end of production was to help finish a game that was in desperate development hell. He had little to do with the writing or style of RDR 1. The lead guy creatively responsible for that game and its prequel was Dan Houser, so of course the writing was still top notch.

 

And we do not know just how much Benzies' absence was felt anyway. After 2014 there was much turnover, GTA DLC's were canned and RDR 2 would be stuck in development for a further four years. 

 

 

I ask myself this question: Am I fan of the Rockstar logo/brand or a fan of the people behind that brand? Since 1999 and GTA 2 I have worshiped the people. The likes of the Housers and Lazlow and Ron Nelson are practically household names in my house. And so then if most of the creative minds behind that brand are now gone then what exactly am I a fan of anymore?

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Ash_735
Posted (edited)

Also, to sum up how some people are acting about being "easily replaceable" let's look at how that work in films...

 

600x600bb.jpg

 

WOW, what a brilliant comic book movie, it's set up things so well, there's no way they can ruin this, just because they fired the main writer after this doesn't change a thing...

 

600x600bb.jpg

 

Oh no

Edited by Ash_735
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Jason

I mean the original X-Men trilogy are decent flicks but they butchered basically every character in them, in particular Cyclops. 😉

 

It's not as if there aren't countless examples of film franchises that improved once they replaced the writer/director too. To stick with the Marvel theme, Captain America 2 and 3 over 1, Thor 3 over 2 and 1.

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VitoSpeed

Maybe, but you know, Rockstar Games is a big team, his departure will not cause huge losses, this is not the first time they have experienced this kind of thing.
.

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Ash_735
1 hour ago, Jason said:

I mean the original X-Men trilogy are decent flicks but they butchered basically every character in them, in particular Cyclops. 😉

 

It's not as if there aren't countless examples of film franchises that improved once they replaced the writer/director too. To stick with the Marvel theme, Captain America 2 and 3 over 1, Thor 3 over 2 and 1.

Comic Book movies can be weird like that but the point was, X-Men 1 and X2 were building towards something, they fell out with the original writer, and moved on with X-Men 3 with a new writer, ...who completely butchered the Dark Phoenix plot (fun fact, they brought the same writer back, ...to butcher the new Dark Phoenix plot). I suppose a better example would be a band like Guns 'N Roses, you had the early years, a few members changed out but Axl Rose and Slash were always there, then the huge arguments, Slash left, and the band pretty much faded out of relevance until they are reunited years later (did they ever do new music though?).

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Devdevi45

Two words - Take Two

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Jason
10 hours ago, Ash_735 said:

Comic Book movies can be weird like that but the point was, X-Men 1 and X2 were building towards something, they fell out with the original writer, and moved on with X-Men 3 with a new writer, ...who completely butchered the Dark Phoenix plot (fun fact, they brought the same writer back, ...to butcher the new Dark Phoenix plot). I suppose a better example would be a band like Guns 'N Roses, you had the early years, a few members changed out but Axl Rose and Slash were always there, then the huge arguments, Slash left, and the band pretty much faded out of relevance until they are reunited years later (did they ever do new music though?).

Avengers 1 and 2 were building towards something then changed writer and we got Infinity War and Endgame. I aint saying GTA/Rockstar stories/games are going to get better, but the idea that they're definitely going to get worse is not exactly a sure thing either.

 

Also yea, the less said about Dark Phoenix the better lol, how they took a galaxy spanning story involving multiple civilisations that's centred around one of the most powerful cosmic beings in existence and turned it into something that ended in train ride on Earth I don't know.

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ArmenianAssasin77

Its probrably because of Strauss Zelnick.

My theory is that Dan wanted GTA VI to focus mainly on the story mode. While Take-Two wanted to milk the online mode. 

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IndianaLiam1

Strauss Zelnick should get his yoga pants, and shove them up his stupid money hungry a-

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Kris194

Quote you might find to be interesting

 

Quote

During our time together, before New York Magazine’s piece came out, Houser had told me how difficult a game of this size is to get made, to get good, and then to make outstanding. His family, he says, would concede that he was a “husk” at some points during development. He explained that some of the longest periods of work, for him, would be playing through the game in its entirety with Nelson, Sarwar his brother and other senior developers – taking notes for weeks on end to improve things.

 

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Cheatz/Trickz

Not surprising after V. The game was clearly suffering from internal disputes with Houser being heavily interested in the story and Take Two wanting to milk Online. Probably why V’s story ended up being so disjointed and characters left mostly underdeveloped, but the switch mechanic may have interfered too. 
 

As for him leaving I don’t think it necessarily means he won’t write for the game. I imagine he’ll only agree to it on certain terms he lays out though. 

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CM1
Posted (edited)

It's very variable, depending on how and when the story is finalized.

 

By the time it releases, it would've been in development for 8 years. Likely a 2015 start of formal planning.

 

RDR 2 was clearly in development hell, you don't spend 6 years in production. That's mismanagement of resources and one wonders how much part he had in that?

Edited by CM1

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Western Gunslinger
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, CM1 said:

RDR 2 was clearly in development hell, you don't spend 6 years in production. That's mismanagement of resources and one wonders how much part he had in that?

RDR2 did suffer from development hell, IIRC they only started to develop the game on 2014

Edited by Legion of Hell

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CM1
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Legion of Hell said:

RDR2 did suffer from development hell, IIRC they only started to develop the game on 2014

They started motion capture in late 2012, recording sessions in January 2013. Between 2013 and 2018 they ran into issues.

 

I blame that right there for the delays and cancellations for other Rockstar projects.

 

RDR titles always take too long to develop, for the returns they even provide. If they had gotten it together and had that finished in 2016 by:

 

After start of planning in January 2011 and start of production in late 2012, teased it in October 2014, and released the finished game in late 2015 or early 2016, GTA VI would already be announced by now.

 

They refused to do that, because they didn't want to affect 2014 sales of GTA V PS4/X1, leaving room to mess up later and fall behind. If timing conflict was an issue, then announcing RDR 2 1 year earlier than they did, in let's say October 2015 and release it in October 2016 or early 2017, would still allow for GTA VI announcement by end of 2018 and release in 2019-20.

 

The 21 months spent on RDR 2 pre-production through 2012, 6 years spent on it's production through 2018, plus 1 year of delays, made for a clusterf*ck of proportions at a total of 7 years and 9 months.

 

I feel like Houser's worthwhile demands for RDR 2, were mismanaged and led to robbing time and resources spent on other potential games like Bully 2 or priority stuff GTA VI.

Edited by CM1
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Zello
3 minutes ago, CM1 said:

I feel like Houser's worthwhile demands, were mismanaged and led to robbing time and resources spent on other potential games, especially GTA VI.

He delayed the game because he wanted to add cinematic black bars to the cutscenes and wanted them to remove a mountain and that apparently caused a delay can't find the article or source.

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CM1
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Zello said:

He delayed the game because he wanted to add cinematic black bars to the cutscenes and wanted them to remove a mountain and that apparently caused a delay can't find the article or source.

I see, as that makes sense. Thanks for highlighting that to me.

 

Life happens I guess, whether in personal or professional. Even with that in mind for fairness, Dan Houser's failure to know and want that from the get go, caused a messy setback, particularly after an announcement.

 

They already wanted to take their time, to avoid clashing with GTA V. It just should've been managed so much better. A game shouldn't be in production for 5 years, let alone the 6 years it became out of a total almost 8 years spent.

Edited by CM1

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Pedinhuh
Posted (edited)

It's asinine to think Dan's departure will not affect the quality of the next GTA.

 

Dan Houser and Sam Hourser ARE Grand Theft Auto, they are what made the game from the start to what it is today.

 

As such its inevitable that the next GTA won't suffer changes when half of the integral part of what made the franchise has left the company.

 

It makes sense to see that Leslie's departure didn't affect RDR2 writing because he wasn't involved with the development of RDR1 until very, very late into the development, to save the team of devs from having to delay the game release again, at that point most of the story was already set in stone.

 

As a matter of fact, Leslie mostly cared about multiplayer anyway, its Dan and Sam the guys who always cared about singleplayer.

 

What's more, maybe the decision to only have public servers in RDO without a single option to play by yourself a direct consequence of Leslie's departure...Or maybe I'm just saying sh*t, who knows? I heard Red Dead Online is a EXCELLENT multiplayer game, right.....Right?

 

With all of this being said, Dan and Leslie are not irreplaceable and even if they are I still believe the next game should maintain the standard of quality that we got so far with the franchise.

Edited by Pedinhuh
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Basti

I mentioned this on the PS5 topic, but do you think what we saw at the event has anything to do with Dan leaving? I know, he left in March and if it was his decision, he probably had to announce it internally even earlier, but even though we didn't see any in game footage, I don't think Sony approached them just last week either, so he probably knew about these plans way before anyone else.

 

We all know he's a big story guy and that was always a huge selling point, because he always managed to keep the underlying betrayal and ultimate revenge theme interesting (done to perfection in GTAIV imo). We don't know how many people buy the game and actually play the story - I grew up with GTA and I enjoyed the progression, unlocking new items, not having all weapons accessible from the beginning etc. But I think a lot of people these days just want everything to be available from the beginning, because they paid for it (full Karen mode). There aren't any official numbers on story mode vs. online, but for the Xbox, you can see for every achievement how many % have unlocked it. For the story mode (to live and die in Los Santos) it's some 31%, for the online introduction (off the plane) it's 47%. Only 1.5% have even reached 100% (despite it being easier than in any other GTA game before). Those are Xbox 360 numbers, not accounting for players who never had their account connected to the internet in 7 years, but I think for current gen, the numbers can't be much more in favor of story mode.

While I don't welcome this, looking at those numbers I can somewhat understand the decision of remastering GTA 5 once again and even providing an online only version. With the social club, they can probably tell to the minute how long someone played the story and played online for all platforms combined. Add to that the shark card sales…

 

But I also think that's the point where Dan had some major disagreement with whoever initiated the PS5 port and about moving forward with GTA 6, because - again, only speaking for my X360 numbers here as an example - the online game is far more successfull than the story mode and it's hard to come up with arguments to put more effort in the story for a future GTA when all people want to do is ride around on an effing rocket bike and blow you up the second you spawn (yes, I hate GTA online. Like, truly, really, absolutely hate it)

 

I have a feeling the story mode will become a lot shorter for GTA 6. If the "online only" release for PS5 is any indication, the story is not the major selling point anymore. They even get away with releasing it on 3 different platforms, just for the online game.

 

I hope I'm wrong and he left for some personal reasons, but right now, I feel like the reason he left was made clear the second we heared "why did I move here" in last weeks PS5 event.

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Western Gunslinger

As every other game companies have shown us, whenever a lead dev is leaving the company, it is usually a sign of their downfall

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GRANDHEIST

New R* without Dan will be like Naughty Dog without Henning and Straley

 

Spoiler

Grand Theft Auto V: Part II

 

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Kris194
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GRANDHEIST said:

New R* without Dan will be like Naughty Dog without Henning and Straley

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Grand Theft Auto V: Part II

 

It will take a while before we'll see any R* projects without Dan's contribution ;)

Edited by Kris194

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MojoGamer

My opinion is f*ck Take Two,

Its been 8 years n the PS5 is here.

We need GTA 6  n a female protagonist included.

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Mister Pink

I would say a few reasons: 

 

1. Working with family is a nightmare. I reckon Sam and Dan were prone to fights and perhaps maybe Sam is closer to Take Two and their monetization values than Dan is. 

2. He doesn't have to work again. He's a multimillionaire. 

3. He may have wanted to start a family and enjoy his own time. 

4. Listening to fans like me pick apart stories and  game elements he might be really proud of. Or just hearing toxic feedback (despite all the success) over and over. 

5. Maybe Dan is burnt out on GTA and RDR and games in general. He knows it all from behind the curtain. He'll never be able to play a GTA objectively or just as a fan. So, although their is pride there and a huge sense of achievement, Dan Houser will never know what GTA is like to a fan who doesn't know what GTA they are getting next. We just get the final product. In sense GTA as a fan never existed for him. 

6. Health issues. I would say doing his job is stressful. It's a huge undertaking with many companies that have interest in your business. Working non-stop would take its toll. 

7. For some reason I see Sam as being closer to Take Two. He's on the corporate side and see Dan as a writer and creative. And with GTA brand taking a huge nose-dive with Shark Cards shame and Rockstar not being the rock star cool kids they once were (that goes to CDPR now), being even more removed from the fanbase on many levels, Dan may have felt it time to move on. He may have thought Benzies got hard done by. 

8. He could have been inspired by Benzies absence to go to something of his own. 

 

I don't think we'll here from Dan again. Something tells me that he'll just start a family continue growing his family and enjoy life a bit. I just can't imagine him writing for more games. I'm grateful for his contributions. He'll go down as a legend of the videogame and entertainment world. 

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Zello
2 minutes ago, Mister Pink said:

I don't think we'll here from Dan again. Something tells me that he'll just start a family continue growing his family and enjoy life a bit. I just can't imagine him writing for more games. I'm grateful for his contributions. He'll go down as a legend of the videogame and entertainment world. 

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/step-inside-this-new-york-city-familys-ultimate-adirondacks-lodge?utm_campaign=magazine

 

That's what he's doing 

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Mister Pink
1 minute ago, Zello said:

Is that for real? That's Houser? Wow. I can't say I'm surprised. That's great. I'm happy for him. I thought he would fade into obscurity.. That home is so beautiful. 

 

And he already has a family. Wasn't too far off! 😛 

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DownInTheHole
Posted (edited)

seeing the state of the story in gta online and rdro i can say with absolute confidence that future storylines are going to suck big time

Edited by DownInTheHole
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KingD19

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Edited by KingD19
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jippa_lippa

Being Dan Houser a person focused on storytelling, it only makes sense he left right when rockstar started caring less and less about it in favour of online-focused content.

I'm quite sure Dan Houser wasn't enthusiast to see GTA V for PS5, announced.

Edited by jippa_lippa
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Catsooey
2 hours ago, jippa_lippa said:

Being Dan Houser a person focused on storytelling, it only makes sense he left right when rockstar started caring less and less about it in favour of online-focused content.

I'm quite sure Dan Houser wasn't enthusiast to see GTA V for PS5, announced.


 

I was thinking that it might have been one of the main factors in his decision to leave.  I think Take 2 has become hooked on the money stream it’s getting from V and it’s now in this weird position of being afraid to produce anything new.  It’s really bad because this might destroy the entire franchise and the company.  The small portion of the audience that is spending big on micro transactions will eventually go somewhere else and by then so much time will have passed that their main audience will have left.  People can only wait so long, no matter how good the game might be. The industry thrives on innovation and creativity and the myopic business model the industry as a whole has taken on is based on the opposite - it’s based on taking increasing amounts of content away and asking the public to pay more for less. They’re constantly asking themselves how little they can get away with releasing so that they can sell the rest back to the audience a second time. This won’t last forever, but it might last long enough to destroy what the gaming industry has created. Business in general has been deregulated, monopolized and oligopolized (word?) to such an extent that every industry is cutting quality and quantity and there’s no longer any standard value for what you pay. So they keep taking - it’s free market competition in reverse. Eventually we’ll have one or two companies selling clothes made out of compressed textile waste and glue (which happened during the civil war from no bid contracts, not sure if it was north or south) and coffee made out of sawdust. Sorry to expand it to a macro level but we’re seeing a pretty bad problem here in my opinion. I like your avatar btw, that was always my favorite GTA intro.

Edited by Catsooey
spelling

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jippa_lippa
14 hours ago, Catsooey said:


 

I was thinking that it might have been one of the main factors in his decision to leave.  I think Take 2 has become hooked on the money stream it’s getting from V and it’s now in this weird position of being afraid to produce anything new.  It’s really bad because this might destroy the entire franchise and the company.  The small portion of the audience that is spending big on micro transactions will eventually go somewhere else and by then so much time will have passed that their main audience will have left.  People can only wait so long, no matter how good the game might be. The industry thrives on innovation and creativity and the myopic business model the industry as a whole has taken on is based on the opposite - it’s based on taking increasing amounts of content away and asking the public to pay more for less. They’re constantly asking themselves how little they can get away with releasing so that they can sell the rest back to the audience a second time. This won’t last forever, but it might last long enough to destroy what the gaming industry has created. Business in general has been deregulated, monopolized and oligopolized (word?) to such an extent that every industry is cutting quality and quantity and there’s no longer any standard value for what you pay. So they keep taking - it’s free market competition in reverse. Eventually we’ll have one or two companies selling clothes made out of compressed textile waste and glue (which happened during the civil war from no bid contracts, not sure if it was north or south) and coffee made out of sawdust. Sorry to expand it to a macro level but we’re seeing a pretty bad problem here in my opinion. I like your avatar btw, that was always my favorite GTA intro.

I can't wait for GTA ONLINE to finally die once and for all.

Only when it'll die we'll have a chance of seeing something new from Rockstar.

The only reason we Had RDR2 was the fact it's not really competition for GTA, but that's it.

Anyway, I'm usually a GTA fan, but I'm slowly starting to think RDR 2 is the very best Rockstar videogame.

Is it the last with Benzies in it, right?

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