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Niobium

Johnny Klebitz Appreciation Thread

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billiejoearmstrong8
1 hour ago, Ryo256 said:

But Johnny isn't just any other outlaw biker, right? Just like Niko isn't just another immigrant killer who only works for money.

And of course the prime example of Dwayne, the guy who sold drugs and built an entire business out of it but never got into them. Because he was different, Niko was different and of course Johnny was different. That's what makes them interesting in the first place.

He's different but that doesn't make him immune to having any weakness. It's hard to compare him to other protagonists because we usually never get to see what becomes of them, and the others neither had drug addict exes hanging around them nor finished up in such worsened/depressing circumstances. Johnny's less hedonistic than most of the other outlaw bikers but he still is an outlaw biker. It's a bit different to other criminals who deal drugs but never touch them themselves in that being hedonistic to some extent is an intrinsic part of their lifestyle.

 

I think it stands out because it's the only time we've seen a former protagonist go down like that. But really since the HD era all of the protagonists have been more flawed and human and the stories have been less about rising to absurd levels of success. So I think almost any of them could be susceptible to making mistakes and having their life take a negative turn. Imo with Johnny the way it was left off it could've gone either way.

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

He's different but that doesn't make him immune to having any weakness. It's hard to compare him to other protagonists because we usually never get to see what becomes of them, and the others neither had drug addict exes hanging around them nor finished up in such worsened/depressing circumstances. Johnny's less hedonistic than most of the other outlaw bikers but he still is an outlaw biker. It's a bit different to other criminals who deal drugs but never touch them themselves in that being hedonistic to some extent is an intrinsic part of their lifestyle.

 

I think it stands out because it's the only time we've seen a former protagonist go down like that. But really since the HD era all of the protagonists have been more flawed and human and the stories have been less about rising to absurd levels of success. So I think almost any of them could be susceptible to making mistakes and having their life take a negative turn. Imo with Johnny the way it was left off it could've gone either way.

It's not about immunity to weakness, it's how they respond to their weaknesses. From logical point of view you are right but from an entertaining point of view, for the narrative sake of a video game like GTA, you can't just butcher a well-developed protagonist who has shown to be mature about his weakness, to suddenly succumb to their weakness without a proper character arc, it's bad writing. TLaD ended more in favor of Johnny being strong than being weak. V did nothing but was like "Welp, it happened."

Edited by Ryo256

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billiejoearmstrong8
2 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

It's not about immunity to weakness, it's how they respond to their weaknesses. From logical point of view you are right but from an entertaining point of view, for the narrative sake of a video game like GTA, you can't just butcher a well-developed protagonist who has shown to be mature about his weakness, to suddenly succumb to their weakness without a proper character arc, it's bad writing. TLaD ended more in favor of Johnny being strong than being weak. V did nothing but was like "Welp, it happened."

I don't think it's that sudden when not distancing himself enough from Ashley already brought him a lot of trouble during TLAD. It was an ongoing weakness that was still threatening to return. Unless they'd just gone the obvious route of having him running The Lost over there in peak condition as a "boss fight" for Trevor and didn't want any kind of unexpectedness there always would've had to be an element of "fill in the blank".

 

I guess it comes down to how you view the end of TLAD because to me it looks pretty miserable and demoralising for Johnny, and I don't find it a stretch to imagine things going downhill for him in that way. In V I find it a compelling and entertaining scene and an effective way of introducing Trevor. And it doesn't spoil my view of Johnny at all, making some mistakes and being a victim of circumstance doesn't take away that he was a solid dude and all the honourable things he did. So I'm good with it. I accept that not everyone views it the same as me though.

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Niobium

"JoHnNy kEpT CoMiNg bAcK tO AsHlEy"

 

you still don't get it do you.

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Ryo256
1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I don't think it's that sudden when not distancing himself enough from Ashley already brought him a lot of trouble during TLAD. It was an ongoing weakness that was still threatening to return. Unless they'd just gone the obvious route of having him running The Lost over there in peak condition as a "boss fight" for Trevor and didn't want any kind of unexpectedness there always would've had to be an element of "fill in the blank".

I guess, to be fair, Johnny becoming a biker again and ending up in Blaine County, running the Lost again, seems more out of place than him ending up as smoking meth with Ashley. But we already spoken about how bad V writing is in my opinion so that's that.

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I guess it comes down to how you view the end of TLAD because to me it looks pretty miserable and demoralising for Johnny, and I don't find it a stretch to imagine things going downhill for him in that way.

I seen it as miserable too but Johnny and TLaD's theme points toward Johnny being a rebel, someone who may go die alone in an abandoned apartment then to go be a slave to addictions or women. He would sooner put a bullet through his head before he goes there, that's what TLaD damn well made it clear, no matter how low Johnny went. That's what makes him a badass character and why people love him, he will lose the fight, but he will lose on his terms, not how society or life wants it. It's not logical or realistic but it damn hell as entertaining and that's expected from a video game story.

 

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

In V I find it a compelling and entertaining scene and an effective way of introducing Trevor. And it doesn't spoil my view of Johnny at all, making some mistakes and being a victim of circumstance doesn't take away that he was a solid dude and all the honourable things he did. So I'm good with it. I accept that not everyone views it the same as me though.

Yeah that scene is about Trevor, not Johnny I can totally see where you are going with that. But there is one issue, Trevor pushes a bit too far in that scene with all the insults and dismissing Johnny's past glories later on that airstrip takeover. Plus you won't see that Trevor again. So good introduction but kinda means nothing in the long run and you waste a good character in the progress. Rockstar was clumsy and handled it poorly IMO but I understand what they were going for.

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universetwisters
23 hours ago, Niobium said:

"JoHnNy kEpT CoMiNg bAcK tO AsHlEy"

 

you still don't get it do you.

 

Idk man I think it's pretty clear that Johnny still has some feelings for Ashley, even if he "cut" her out of his life at the end of TLAD. It wouldn't surprise me if Ashley wanted Johnny to save her again and Johnny, being Johnny, got back into doing anything for her

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Ryo256
7 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Idk man I think it's pretty clear that Johnny still has some feelings for Ashley, even if he "cut" her out of his life at the end of TLAD. It wouldn't surprise me if Ashley wanted Johnny to save her again and Johnny, being Johnny, got back into doing anything for her

Johnny kept following Billy despite his extreme decisions but accepted that he needed a bullet in a head when things went too far. Yes, Johnny has a thing for Ashley, yes he will help any fool in need especially if they are close to him but he never lost himself in the process..........but V says otherwise. Now between you and me, my bets are on the previous dev team, not the new one.

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Niobium

 

"so you want me to go put the fear of the lord in a lawyer? and you're gonna pay me for it? sh*t dave why didn't you say so in the first place?"

 

love this quote

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TheSantader25
Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2020 at 4:07 AM, Ryo256 said:

Johnny kept following Billy despite his extreme decisions but accepted that he needed a bullet in a head when things went too far. Yes, Johnny has a thing for Ashley, yes he will help any fool in need especially if they are close to him but he never lost himself in the process..........but V says otherwise. Now between you and me, my bets are on the previous dev team, not the new one.

In the beginning of TLAD, Johnny has already minimized his interactions with Ashley. But when he finds out she is in a bad way, he can't help but get involved with her again to save her sorry ass. That's one of those relationships that are unhealthy and will ultimately bite you in the ass no matter how many times you say "I'm done with her". 

 

Also let's not forget how the Lost got destroyed by the end of TLAD. That kind of experience can send anyone towards depression and destruction. So yeah. He can easily lose himself in the process. 

Edited by TheSantader25
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Ryo256
6 hours ago, TheSantader25 said:

He can easily lose himself in the process. 

You can, in real life, you can but it goes in various directions and in fictional entertaining narrative, you need to offer a little more than that to justify Johnny's fall.

People see it as Johnny taking one step back but a step back would just make him ordinary person. In V, I see it as Johnny taking two steps backward, for that you need a character arc, you can't just get away with, "Well he was f*cked up in Alderney so it happened." Nah man, show, don't tell. Otherwise R* can get away a lot of character development off screen and every ridiculous 180s I mentioned about other GTA protagonists in this thread can be rationalized with "He can..." 

In V, R* f*cked it up......I'm saying this confidently because R* f*cked it up in other part of the writing in V as well since I think Michael, Franklin and Trevor got it worse than Johnny in terms of character writing. But now R* screwed up, I don't really wanna rationalize their screw up. It's their job to take of the character and how they develop, not ours. So "He can..." is a valid point but not a valuable one.

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TheSantader25
2 hours ago, Ryo256 said:

You can, in real life, you can but it goes in various directions and in fictional entertaining narrative, you need to offer a little more than that to justify Johnny's fall.

People see it as Johnny taking one step back but a step back would just make him ordinary person. In V, I see it as Johnny taking two steps backward, for that you need a character arc, you can't just get away with, "Well he was f*cked up in Alderney so it happened." Nah man, show, don't tell. Otherwise R* can get away a lot of character development off screen and every ridiculous 180s I mentioned about other GTA protagonists in this thread can be rationalized with "He can..." 

In V, R* f*cked it up......I'm saying this confidently because R* f*cked it up in other part of the writing in V as well since I think Michael, Franklin and Trevor got it worse than Johnny in terms of character writing. But now R* screwed up, I don't really wanna rationalize their screw up. It's their job to take of the character and how they develop, not ours. So "He can..." is a valid point but not a valuable one.

I gotta say I strongly disagree with all this. Could be an interesting back and forth discussion but you seem pretty confident about your opinion so I'm not gonna turn this into a full blown argument. Still though at least you have your reasons. Unlike some others who just pump facts out of their ass with no reason. 

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

I gotta say I strongly disagree with all this. Could be an interesting back and forth discussion but you seem pretty confident about your opinion so I'm not gonna turn this into a full blown argument. Still though at least you have your reasons. Unlike some others who just pump facts out of their ass with no reason. 

That's why we discuss things. It's about exploring different point of views and the thought process behind them. Don't get me wrong, I can see why Johnny is the way he is in V and also the reasons why he shouldn't be like that. I just picked one perspective over the other, because it felt more convincing and is more closer to my values as an individual. Others have their own reasons and values, which I respect as long as they are civil about it and will hear out as long as they share their thought process (since I like to test-drive different perspectives in my spare time).

Edited by Ryo256
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Niobium

johnny klebitz is such a well-written character, he only has 22 missions and is still miles better than some of the protagonists in the GTA series.

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