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Niobium

Johnny Klebitz Appreciation Thread

Recommended Posts

billiejoearmstrong8
1 hour ago, Ryo256 said:

But Johnny isn't just any other outlaw biker, right? Just like Niko isn't just another immigrant killer who only works for money.

And of course the prime example of Dwayne, the guy who sold drugs and built an entire business out of it but never got into them. Because he was different, Niko was different and of course Johnny was different. That's what makes them interesting in the first place.

He's different but that doesn't make him immune to having any weakness. It's hard to compare him to other protagonists because we usually never get to see what becomes of them, and the others neither had drug addict exes hanging around them nor finished up in such worsened/depressing circumstances. Johnny's less hedonistic than most of the other outlaw bikers but he still is an outlaw biker. It's a bit different to other criminals who deal drugs but never touch them themselves in that being hedonistic to some extent is an intrinsic part of their lifestyle.

 

I think it stands out because it's the only time we've seen a former protagonist go down like that. But really since the HD era all of the protagonists have been more flawed and human and the stories have been less about rising to absurd levels of success. So I think almost any of them could be susceptible to making mistakes and having their life take a negative turn. Imo with Johnny the way it was left off it could've gone either way.

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

He's different but that doesn't make him immune to having any weakness. It's hard to compare him to other protagonists because we usually never get to see what becomes of them, and the others neither had drug addict exes hanging around them nor finished up in such worsened/depressing circumstances. Johnny's less hedonistic than most of the other outlaw bikers but he still is an outlaw biker. It's a bit different to other criminals who deal drugs but never touch them themselves in that being hedonistic to some extent is an intrinsic part of their lifestyle.

 

I think it stands out because it's the only time we've seen a former protagonist go down like that. But really since the HD era all of the protagonists have been more flawed and human and the stories have been less about rising to absurd levels of success. So I think almost any of them could be susceptible to making mistakes and having their life take a negative turn. Imo with Johnny the way it was left off it could've gone either way.

It's not about immunity to weakness, it's how they respond to their weaknesses. From logical point of view you are right but from an entertaining point of view, for the narrative sake of a video game like GTA, you can't just butcher a well-developed protagonist who has shown to be mature about his weakness, to suddenly succumb to their weakness without a proper character arc, it's bad writing. TLaD ended more in favor of Johnny being strong than being weak. V did nothing but was like "Welp, it happened."

Edited by Ryo256
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billiejoearmstrong8
2 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

It's not about immunity to weakness, it's how they respond to their weaknesses. From logical point of view you are right but from an entertaining point of view, for the narrative sake of a video game like GTA, you can't just butcher a well-developed protagonist who has shown to be mature about his weakness, to suddenly succumb to their weakness without a proper character arc, it's bad writing. TLaD ended more in favor of Johnny being strong than being weak. V did nothing but was like "Welp, it happened."

I don't think it's that sudden when not distancing himself enough from Ashley already brought him a lot of trouble during TLAD. It was an ongoing weakness that was still threatening to return. Unless they'd just gone the obvious route of having him running The Lost over there in peak condition as a "boss fight" for Trevor and didn't want any kind of unexpectedness there always would've had to be an element of "fill in the blank".

 

I guess it comes down to how you view the end of TLAD because to me it looks pretty miserable and demoralising for Johnny, and I don't find it a stretch to imagine things going downhill for him in that way. In V I find it a compelling and entertaining scene and an effective way of introducing Trevor. And it doesn't spoil my view of Johnny at all, making some mistakes and being a victim of circumstance doesn't take away that he was a solid dude and all the honourable things he did. So I'm good with it. I accept that not everyone views it the same as me though.

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Niobium

"JoHnNy kEpT CoMiNg bAcK tO AsHlEy"

 

you still don't get it do you.

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Ryo256
1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I don't think it's that sudden when not distancing himself enough from Ashley already brought him a lot of trouble during TLAD. It was an ongoing weakness that was still threatening to return. Unless they'd just gone the obvious route of having him running The Lost over there in peak condition as a "boss fight" for Trevor and didn't want any kind of unexpectedness there always would've had to be an element of "fill in the blank".

I guess, to be fair, Johnny becoming a biker again and ending up in Blaine County, running the Lost again, seems more out of place than him ending up as smoking meth with Ashley. But we already spoken about how bad V writing is in my opinion so that's that.

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I guess it comes down to how you view the end of TLAD because to me it looks pretty miserable and demoralising for Johnny, and I don't find it a stretch to imagine things going downhill for him in that way.

I seen it as miserable too but Johnny and TLaD's theme points toward Johnny being a rebel, someone who may go die alone in an abandoned apartment then to go be a slave to addictions or women. He would sooner put a bullet through his head before he goes there, that's what TLaD damn well made it clear, no matter how low Johnny went. That's what makes him a badass character and why people love him, he will lose the fight, but he will lose on his terms, not how society or life wants it. It's not logical or realistic but it damn hell as entertaining and that's expected from a video game story.

 

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

In V I find it a compelling and entertaining scene and an effective way of introducing Trevor. And it doesn't spoil my view of Johnny at all, making some mistakes and being a victim of circumstance doesn't take away that he was a solid dude and all the honourable things he did. So I'm good with it. I accept that not everyone views it the same as me though.

Yeah that scene is about Trevor, not Johnny I can totally see where you are going with that. But there is one issue, Trevor pushes a bit too far in that scene with all the insults and dismissing Johnny's past glories later on that airstrip takeover. Plus you won't see that Trevor again. So good introduction but kinda means nothing in the long run and you waste a good character in the progress. Rockstar was clumsy and handled it poorly IMO but I understand what they were going for.

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universetwisters
23 hours ago, Niobium said:

"JoHnNy kEpT CoMiNg bAcK tO AsHlEy"

 

you still don't get it do you.

 

Idk man I think it's pretty clear that Johnny still has some feelings for Ashley, even if he "cut" her out of his life at the end of TLAD. It wouldn't surprise me if Ashley wanted Johnny to save her again and Johnny, being Johnny, got back into doing anything for her

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Ryo256
7 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Idk man I think it's pretty clear that Johnny still has some feelings for Ashley, even if he "cut" her out of his life at the end of TLAD. It wouldn't surprise me if Ashley wanted Johnny to save her again and Johnny, being Johnny, got back into doing anything for her

Johnny kept following Billy despite his extreme decisions but accepted that he needed a bullet in a head when things went too far. Yes, Johnny has a thing for Ashley, yes he will help any fool in need especially if they are close to him but he never lost himself in the process..........but V says otherwise. Now between you and me, my bets are on the previous dev team, not the new one.

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Niobium

 

"so you want me to go put the fear of the lord in a lawyer? and you're gonna pay me for it? sh*t dave why didn't you say so in the first place?"

 

love this quote

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TheSantader25
Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2020 at 4:07 AM, Ryo256 said:

Johnny kept following Billy despite his extreme decisions but accepted that he needed a bullet in a head when things went too far. Yes, Johnny has a thing for Ashley, yes he will help any fool in need especially if they are close to him but he never lost himself in the process..........but V says otherwise. Now between you and me, my bets are on the previous dev team, not the new one.

In the beginning of TLAD, Johnny has already minimized his interactions with Ashley. But when he finds out she is in a bad way, he can't help but get involved with her again to save her sorry ass. That's one of those relationships that are unhealthy and will ultimately bite you in the ass no matter how many times you say "I'm done with her". 

 

Also let's not forget how the Lost got destroyed by the end of TLAD. That kind of experience can send anyone towards depression and destruction. So yeah. He can easily lose himself in the process. 

Edited by TheSantader25
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Ryo256
6 hours ago, TheSantader25 said:

He can easily lose himself in the process. 

You can, in real life, you can but it goes in various directions and in fictional entertaining narrative, you need to offer a little more than that to justify Johnny's fall.

People see it as Johnny taking one step back but a step back would just make him ordinary person. In V, I see it as Johnny taking two steps backward, for that you need a character arc, you can't just get away with, "Well he was f*cked up in Alderney so it happened." Nah man, show, don't tell. Otherwise R* can get away a lot of character development off screen and every ridiculous 180s I mentioned about other GTA protagonists in this thread can be rationalized with "He can..." 

In V, R* f*cked it up......I'm saying this confidently because R* f*cked it up in other part of the writing in V as well since I think Michael, Franklin and Trevor got it worse than Johnny in terms of character writing. But now R* screwed up, I don't really wanna rationalize their screw up. It's their job to take of the character and how they develop, not ours. So "He can..." is a valid point but not a valuable one.

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TheSantader25
2 hours ago, Ryo256 said:

You can, in real life, you can but it goes in various directions and in fictional entertaining narrative, you need to offer a little more than that to justify Johnny's fall.

People see it as Johnny taking one step back but a step back would just make him ordinary person. In V, I see it as Johnny taking two steps backward, for that you need a character arc, you can't just get away with, "Well he was f*cked up in Alderney so it happened." Nah man, show, don't tell. Otherwise R* can get away a lot of character development off screen and every ridiculous 180s I mentioned about other GTA protagonists in this thread can be rationalized with "He can..." 

In V, R* f*cked it up......I'm saying this confidently because R* f*cked it up in other part of the writing in V as well since I think Michael, Franklin and Trevor got it worse than Johnny in terms of character writing. But now R* screwed up, I don't really wanna rationalize their screw up. It's their job to take of the character and how they develop, not ours. So "He can..." is a valid point but not a valuable one.

I gotta say I strongly disagree with all this. Could be an interesting back and forth discussion but you seem pretty confident about your opinion so I'm not gonna turn this into a full blown argument. Still though at least you have your reasons. Unlike some others who just pump facts out of their ass with no reason. 

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

I gotta say I strongly disagree with all this. Could be an interesting back and forth discussion but you seem pretty confident about your opinion so I'm not gonna turn this into a full blown argument. Still though at least you have your reasons. Unlike some others who just pump facts out of their ass with no reason. 

That's why we discuss things. It's about exploring different point of views and the thought process behind them. Don't get me wrong, I can see why Johnny is the way he is in V and also the reasons why he shouldn't be like that. I just picked one perspective over the other, because it felt more convincing and is more closer to my values as an individual. Others have their own reasons and values, which I respect as long as they are civil about it and will hear out as long as they share their thought process (since I like to test-drive different perspectives in my spare time).

Edited by Ryo256
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Niobium

johnny klebitz is such a well-written character, he only has 22 missions and is still miles better than some of the protagonists in the GTA series.

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Guest
Posted (edited)

seeing as bikers are generally considered as enemies/cannon fodder for the protagonists throughout the series it was nice to see a game from their pov, and Johnny was imo a great portrayal of a biker protagonist too. He had a disdain for authority and liked to stick it to em but it's not like he was this snob who mindlessly caused ruckus and thought himself to be above the regular guy, he just wanted a life away from the man and cared deeply about the gang and the brothers, he didn't use his position as a power trip to cause chaos (like a certain Mr Grey) 

 

Wouldn't mind seeing a biker protagonist who's more of a hellraiser in the future but I thought Johnny was a great portrayal of one that didn't go by stereotype and still showed him to be a badass and just a cool dude in general. 

Edited by Guest
A word

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Niobium

many gamers have their own opinions as to who is the greatest character of all time.

 

arthur morgan, geralt, commander shepard, agent 47, joel, ellie, glados, gordon freeman, john marston, niko bellic, nathan drake, ezio auditore, adam jensen, master chief, solid snake, max payne, frank west, alyx vance, mario, samus, sonic, kirby, link, i could go on...

 

and yet despite the fact that these are all amazing characters, one character gets overlooked amongst all of them.

 

main-qimg-9ec81ee9b26980795a93a54c0bc884

 

this character is legendary status and deserves to be up there with all these great characters.

 

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RenegadeAngel
Posted (edited)

His fatal weakness was his attachement to the biker ifestyle. He didn't know otherwise and never wanted to. Despite his connections to politicians and influential people from organized crime, he didn't want to capitalize on that. That's why his move to the West Coast in an attempt to bring the golden days of The Lost back is  more than understandable. Weapons and drugs smuggling with subsequent devolopment of meth addiction is understandable. His lifestory is an effective drama. A drama of a very talented man born in a wrong place with wrong people whose lifestyle he very much embraced and appreciated, but at the same time a lifestyle that in return brought nothing but misery and shameful demise. It's poetic in a sense.

Edited by RenegadeAngel
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Niobium
4 hours ago, RenegadeAngel said:

His fatal weakness was his attachement to the biker ifestyle. He didn't know otherwise and never wanted to. Despite his connections to politicians and influential people from organized crime, he didn't want to capitalize on that. That's why his move to the West Coast in an attempt to bring the golden days of The Lost back is  more than understandable. Weapons and drugs smuggling with subsequent devolopment of meth addiction is understandable. His lifestory is an effective drama. A drama of a very talented man born in a wrong place with wrong people whose lifestyle he very much embraced and appreciated, but at the same time a lifestyle that in return brought nothing but misery and shameful demise. It's poetic in a sense.

oh for the love of--

 

i didn't even need to bring up his death this time and yet people are still defending it!

 

TLOU spoilers

why don't you just move on to defending joel's poorly written death and piss off the TLOU fanbase too, i'm sure they'll enjoy it.

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Guest
Posted (edited)

^ Uhh dude no offense(I like that you made this thread btw) but not every thing is about your feelings, I get you may not like being reminded of his fate but I don't think that was his intention, guess he was just trying to offer a more poetic appreciation of Johnny's character, it's worth noting that Johnny's arc is one of the more interesting ones in GTA and he was just offering his perspective on it 

Edited by Guest

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Niobium

whatever. i've had to deal with this sh*t for years. i'm out of tolerance for this.

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DownInThePMs
Posted (edited)

I mean in all honesty he was one of the series' better protagonists so I can understand the intention of this thread, and I personally also disliked the treatment he got in V, though at this point, I don't really care about it anymore.

 

What I don't like is the circlejerk and general disregard for every other character other than Niko just because he happens to be a cool, gritty and badass character who happens to to be part of a cool subculture that, over the course of the storyline, was proven time and time again to be a dated sham, born out of an archaic rock n' roll fantasy, and get assblasted when others disagree.

Edited by DownInTheHole
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RenegadeAngel
7 hours ago, Niobium said:

oh for the love of--

 

i didn't even need to bring up his death this time and yet people are still defending it!

 

TLOU spoilers

 

  Reveal hidden contents

why don't you just move on to defending joel's poorly written death and piss off the TLOU fanbase too, i'm sure they'll enjoy it.

 

I'm not defending anything. I'm sharing my thoughts on Johnny's life. Your analogy is a bit off, btw. You compare a  cult classic, complex, fully-developed character loved by millions who was wasted for pretentious, self-indulgent reasons in a character driven drama with a character who is barely memorable for most people, who hardly ever would have been brought up if it wasn't for his death. And all that in an over-the-top, satirical, chaotic franchise where anything can happen. I can't blame you for such an attachment to the character, but it's different dimensions here completely. 

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Ryo256
1 hour ago, RenegadeAngel said:

Your analogy is a bit off, btw. You compare a  cult classic, complex, fully-developed character loved by millions who was wasted for pretentious, self-indulgent reasons in a character driven drama with a character who is barely memorable for most people, who hardly ever would have been brought up if it wasn't for his death. 

n0Sdqyn.png

The point of that both mentioned characters didn't need to die at all but developers decided otherwise.
 

1 hour ago, RenegadeAngel said:

who was wasted for pretentious, self-indulgent reasons

Nah man, it was ahh....ahh a poetic yea, a poetic view on why revenge is...bad or something. Very good stuff.
 

1 hour ago, RenegadeAngel said:

loved by millions

xVdKP42.png



 

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RenegadeAngel
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

n0Sdqyn.png

The point of that both mentioned characters didn't need to die at all but developers decided otherwise.
 

 

Jokes on you, man. In my book, with his death, Johnny, unlike most GTA characters, attained a complete story arc. I appreciate him more now. Every time I play TLAD I look at him and think "Man, where could he go wrong? What happened?" If it wasn't for his death, I'd have forgotten about him a long time ago and thought of him as "that bald biker guy from the biker dlc or whatever". That's how I perceive what happened to him. Stories are no equations, they're not 2+2=4. Different people, different thought process and emotional response, different opinion. Point is, it happened, time to move on. Some people liked it, some don't, let's move on.

Edited by RenegadeAngel
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Ryo256
35 minutes ago, RenegadeAngel said:

Jokes on you, man. In my book, with his death, Johnny, unlike most GTA characters, attained a complete story arc. I appreciate him more now. Every time I play TLAD I look at him and think "Man, where could he go wrong? What happened?" If it wasn't for his death, I'd have forgotten about him a long time ago and thought of him as "that bald biker guy from the biker dlc or whatever". That's how I perceive what happened to him. 

aaVvGNQ.png
 

41 minutes ago, RenegadeAngel said:

let's move on.


1sASPdQ.png
 

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billiejoearmstrong8
1 hour ago, RenegadeAngel said:

Jokes on you, man. In my book, with his death, Johnny, unlike most GTA characters, attained a complete story arc. I appreciate him more now. Every time I play TLAD I look at him and think "Man, where could he go wrong? What happened?" If it wasn't for his death, I'd have forgotten about him a long time ago and thought of him as "that bald biker guy from the biker dlc or whatever". That's how I perceive what happened to him. Stories are no equations, they're not 2+2=4. Different people, different thought process and emotional response, different opinion. Point is, it happened, time to move on. Some people liked it, some don't, let's move on.

Couldn't agree more.

 

It's not like people are posting Johnny hate in this thread, it's appreciation for his whole story and character. People are allowed to like or dislike how he was handled in GTA V...I don't see the need for being aggressive towards those who like it or for taking it personally.

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Ryo256
19 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

People are allowed to like or dislike how he was handled in GTA V

QRxSCwG.png
 

21 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I don't see the need for being aggressive towards those who like it or for taking it personally.

And I don't see the need for half of this thread pages being filled with people arguing over Johnny's character and death just because someone can't talk beyond the controversial elements related to Johnny. Yet here we are. Anyone actually wanna contribute to this thread? Good, then let's talk about things that we all can agree to be positive about Johnny otherwise you are more than welcome to make another thread. This thread has suffered enough.

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:


 

And I don't see the need for half of this thread pages being filled with people arguing over Johnny's character and death just because someone can't talk beyond the controversial elements related to Johnny. Yet here we are. Anyone actually wanna contribute to this thread? Good, then let's talk about things that we all can agree to be positive about Johnny otherwise you are more than welcome to make another thread. This thread has suffered enough.

RenegadeAngel wrote an eloquent post about Johnny's character which was a worthwhile contribution to the thread and not an attack on anyone. Just because it mentions Johnny's death it shouldn't have to mean an argument or the thread screeching to a halt. All aspects of his character and story should be up for discussion/appreciation, no one is being prevented from discussing/appreciating everything else about him.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Ryo256
1 minute ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

RenegadeAngel wrote an eloquent post about Johnny's character which was a worthwhile contribution to the thread. Just because it mentions Johnny's death it shouldn't have to mean an argument or the thread screeching to a halt. All aspects of his character and story should be up for discussion, and no one is being prevented from discussing everything else about him.

It's talks more than just his death, mind you. But I'm not here to decipher their message for you. It's controversial and similar stuff has created problems in this thread before and it will do it again. 

But if you insist on supporting it then you aren't really showing much sympathy to Johnny fans that made this thread as a place to talk about the good things about Johnny, not what leads to conflict. This is an appreciation thread, you want it to be more, try another thread. You aren't being prevented from doing that. Now you can highlight the rules of discussion all you want but I'm suggesting you to be sensible instead. This thread has suffered enough.

 

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

It's talks more than just his death, mind you. But I'm not here to decipher their message for you. It's controversial and similar stuff has created problems in this thread before and it will do it again. 

But if you insist on supporting it then you aren't really showing much sympathy to Johnny fans that made this thread as a place to talk about the good things about Johnny, not what leads to conflict. This is an appreciation thread, you want it to be more, try another thread. You aren't being prevented from doing that. Now you can highlight the rules of discussion all you want but I'm suggesting you to be sensible instead. This thread has suffered enough.

 

So only part of Johnny's character and story is allowed to be appreciated in this thread? I don't know if you've noticed but the people who dislike the GTA V stuff have brought it up just as much as those who like it. At least those who like it are writing appreciatively. If some people can't handle seeing posts that are appreciative of that part of Johnny's story it's on them, simply ignoring those posts instead of engaging in an argument is always an option. Why not direct your complaints to Niobium who is derailing the thread by taking everything personally instead of people who are just expressing their thoughts on Johnny's story arc.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Ryo256
43 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

So only part of Johnny's character and story is allowed to be appreciated in this thread?

Yes.
 

45 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I don't know if you've noticed but the people who dislike the GTA V stuff have brought it up just as much as those who like it. At least those who like it are writing appreciatively.

So? End result has been the same, people end up arguing over it. It's like people doing the same thing hoping for a different outcome.  So did I ever tell you the definition of...
rm3jac4.png

 

51 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

If some people can't handle seeing posts that are appreciative of that part of Johnny's story it's on them, simply ignoring those posts instead of engaging in an argument is always an option.

Fair enough but don't find it unusual to face aggression either. In your previous comment:

 

2 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

People are allowed to like or dislike how he was handled in GTA V...I don't see the need for being aggressive towards those who like it or for taking it personally.

You spoke out against it. Either let this thread, just like any other appreciation thread, be a place for common appreciation of Johnny or let us argue it to the ground. People can choose to avoid this, but just like you are insisting, you will also find many others that will insist otherwise. Conflict happens, and boom, this thread gets more unneeded pages of arguments. 

 

55 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Why not direct your complaints to Niobium who is derailing the thread by taking everything personally instead of people who are just expressing their thoughts on Johnny's story arc.


Because they have tried to avoid bringing a controversial point into the thread again. They tried to make things better and easy for everyone to discuss and then another unneeded ripple just happened. I swear, if I had behaved like people have in this thread in a thread, like maybe the Praising Thread for V, it wouldn't get past the first page. But I respected that thread for what it was trying to do, so I only brought what was good out of it and avoided any sensitive points. We're doing that here right now, so can you kindly let us?
 

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