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Niobium

Johnny Klebitz Appreciation Thread

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Niobium
Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2020 at 8:42 PM, Algonquin Assassin said:

He isn't when I play TLAD.;)

same. after burning down the clubhouse, he's still cruising the streets of alderney with his hexer in my game. he's still doing criminal activities, getting in trouble with the cops, getting drunk with terry and clay, and beating the sh*t out of people in LC cage fighters. (with a mod to play as johnny in TBOGT ofc :))

 

On 5/13/2020 at 8:38 PM, TheSantader25 said:

I don't think it really matters who the least popular IV protagonist is/was. Obviously R* didn't kill Niko which was a right move. They killed the protagonist who made the most sense for him to be in San Andreas given the Lost's origins and the events of EFLC. I think they picked the most sensible one to kill. 

 

In the end Johnny's dead. 

 

man it's a bit insulting when people who defend that death scene the most are the ones who didn't even care for or play TLAD all that much. but me? i'm a diehard fan who has been sh*tting on the treatment of the lost since the game came out. i've done like 20 playthroughs of TLAD, and i've seen the story dozens of times (whether it be the game itself, or youtube). i think the diehard fans of TLAD who actually play the game know what they are talking about.

Edited by Niobium
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Jinx.
Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2020 at 11:41 PM, Niobium said:

i was doing some thinking about johnny klebitz's death, and then it f*cking hit me. johnny's death was symbolic, but not in the way defenders of the scene think.

 

think about rockstar's attitude towards single-player DLC. since GTA IV came out, there have been three amazing and fun DLCs (TLAD, TBOGT, and undead). but when GTA V came out, they announced a story mode DLC. then they later dropped it and pretended they never announced it. instead, they shifted to focusing their efforts on pumping DLC for online. in fact, it seems like some of the DLC for V's story mode has been repurposed for online. rumors were that the doomsday stuff was originally for single player. i also personally believe that the casino DLC was originally meant for single player as well, because players have requested rockstar to open the casino for so long, and they finally did- but it was only for online. (i don't have any proof for this ofc, but it seems reasonable to believe so)

 

so why continue to pump out DLC for V and RDR2 online instead of single player? because it makes more money, duh. when TLAD came out, it was actually pretty revolutionary because it set an example for what a single-player DLC can really do. it felt more like an expansion pack than a small DLC. but according to reports, take-two was not satisfied with the sales of EFLC. it could be because it was sold too late after IV came out, or it could be that it was an xbox exclusive for a year, but the point is that the execs in charge were starting to believe that single-player DLC was not worth investing in.

 

IV came out in 2008.

EFLC came out in 2009.

RDR came out 2010. undead came out later in the year.

LA noire came out in 2011.

max payne 3 came out in 2012.

GTA V came out in 2013. no single player DLC.

no new games between 2013 and 2018, apart from a GTA V port for the PS4.

RDR2 came out in 2018. no SP DLC has been released since, and i expect no DLC in the future.

we are in 2020, and no new games from rockstar have come out since RDR2.

 

something changed since GTA V came out. since GTA V, no single player DLC or game has been released by rockstar until five years later, with the release of RDR2. no new single-player content has been released since then. do you see rockstar's treatment towards single-player? they no longer focus on single-player content as much, because they figured they could make more money with less effort. they figured that they could make more money from shark cards/gold bars than a quality single player DLC.

 

so rockstar's sh*tty treatment of johnny k, a protagonist of a story-mode DLC, is how they feel towards ALL single-player DLCs (not just TLAD). the day johnny died was the day that single-player DLC died. intentional or not, johnny's death was symbolic of the death of story-mode DLC.

That "symbolism" is load of bullsh*t and I don't even like either of the games. If you would leave your bias aside and put some research into this, you would find out that R* was indeed going to make a SP DLC for V. Proof? Just check out the V beta thread or ask people like @HeySlickThatsMe or @Ash_735, who datamined in the files and found out that some content in the Online updates were indeed part of a DLC. Hell, that Mount Chilliad stuff was indeed a foreshadowing of some sorts, from what I recall. I'm glad the DLC didn't come out, because certain IV fanboys would bitch and moan to death about how GTA is straying away from its roots.

 

I feel like the very same vocal group of IV fanboys like to change narratives to fit their views. Hate on V for having characters like Stretch, while ignoring Bulgarin, who was one of the reasons Niko even left for LC. Or ignore how little the Russian Mafia is involved in the game after Dimitri takes the lead, only appearing whenever the plot felt void of them, and Bulgarin's debt. Or how less stuff IV has compared to SA or even VC. Or how the "choices" are only options for the player to unlock stuff or not. Or defend the mission layout for being repetitive (seriously, what's the difference between killing Jason and killing Jim?) Or ignore whatever Johnny did in TLaD, like ripping off Ray. But what should I expect from the guys who hate on TBoGT for not having "le dprssing" storyline or for having gay characters?

Edited by Jinx.
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TheSantader25

@Niobium

 

I've played TLAD more than 5 times and I've 100% the DLC once. Maybe it's just that people have like different opinions based on their interpretation of the characters? I know it sounds super crazy but I could totally see that being a thing. 

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MyNameIsNotImportantBro
49 minutes ago, Jinx. said:

But what should I expect from the guys who hate on TBoGT for not having "le dprssing" storyline or for having gay characters?

I get your point, R* wanted to show use that there was also a bright said to Liberty City, TBoGT is actually better than the other DLC, better graphics, powerful weapons and much more, but people still hate on TBoGT. 

On 5/14/2020 at 4:42 AM, Algonquin Assassin said:

He isn't when I play TLAD.;)

Big brain momento.

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Niobium
1 hour ago, Jinx. said:

That "symbolism" is load of bullsh*t and I don't even like either of the games. If you would leave your bias aside and put some research into this, you would find out that R* was indeed going to make a SP DLC for V. Proof? Just check out the V beta thread or ask people like @HeySlickThatsMe or @Ash_735, who datamined in the files and found out that some content in the Online updates were indeed part of a DLC. Hell, that Mount Chilliad stuff was indeed a foreshadowing of some sorts, from what I recall. I'm glad the DLC didn't come out, because certain IV fanboys would bitch and moan to death about how GTA is straying away from its roots.

 

I feel like the very same vocal group of IV fanboys like to change narratives to fit their views. Hate on V for having characters like Stretch, while ignoring Bulgarin, who was one of the reasons Niko even left for LC. Or ignore how little the Russian Mafia is involved in the game after Dimitri takes the lead, only appearing whenever the plot felt void of them, and Bulgarin's debt. Or how less stuff IV has compared to SA or even VC. Or how the "choices" are only options for the player to unlock stuff or not. Or defend the mission layout for being repetitive (seriously, what's the difference between killing Jason and killing Jim?) Or ignore whatever Johnny did in TLaD, like ripping off Ray. But what should I expect from the guys who hate on TBoGT for not having "le dprssing" storyline or for having gay characters?

first of all, people criticise bulgarin's character all the time here... second of all, the reason people prefer IV's mission structure to V is that it is far more open ended and less linear. third, the choices aren't a bad thing and are just nice to have. fourth, the antagonist doesn't need to be present 24/7 to be a good villain. fifth, why do people still feel bad for that dumb guido ray? christ this is silly. sixth, i like TBOGT. seventh, that "symbolism" was just my interpretation of things and it is NOT an explanation for why rockstar killed off johnny. eigth, you need to calm down

 

1 hour ago, TheSantader25 said:

@Niobium

 

I've played TLAD more than 5 times and I've 100% the DLC once. Maybe it's just that people have like different opinions based on their interpretation of the characters? I know it sounds super crazy but I could totally see that being a thing. 

my bad, i didn't mean to question your play time. but i thought you did not like TLAD?

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TheSantader25
Posted (edited)

@Niobium

 

I like all GTA Games which have been released after GTA 3. It's just that I like some more than the others. There are a lot of things in TLAD that I like. It's the characters(Bikers specifically) that I dislike. That is all. 

Edited by TheSantader25
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Jinx.
Posted (edited)

I agree about the open-ness of the missions. V lacked in that, but was more varied in terms of objectives... most of the time.

 

The choices are pretty bad. It's just a way of asking the player whether they would like a reward or not, and that reward is generally a stranger mission. It's good for roleplaying but not much else. I would've liked them to lead to one of the endings, considering that Niko didn't want to kill. Or balance the consequences better.

 

Sure, he doesn't need to be present all the time. But for real, if Niko had a debt to Bulgarin, I would expect hitmen like in LCS, or the whole Russian turf to be hostile, and not just some reminders that they exist. Even Sonny Forelli did better in VC, as the goons tried to ruin Tommy's businesses and tried to kill him, unlike Dimitri which forgets about Bulgarin and just takes Roman as a hostage through Johnny or gets goons to harass Bernie in his missions. Atleast until the Deal ending.

 

I never said I feel sorry for Ray, but this is a pretty important event to keep in mind.

 

I'm calm. I'm just tired of most IV fanboys who sh*t on V while not recognizing IV's flaws at all. Neither games are perfect, and both do better things than the other in certain aspects.

Edited by Jinx.
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Niobium
2 minutes ago, Jinx. said:

 

I'm calm. I'm just tired of most IV fanboys who sh*t on V while not recognizing IV's flaws at all. Neither games are perfect, and both do better things than the other in certain aspects.

understandable. it's just for me, most of V's flaws bug me while i don't mind most of IV's flaws. the only flaws in IV that stand out for me are no planes, no bicycles and perhaps not many fun cheats.

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MyNameIsNotImportantBro
9 minutes ago, Niobium said:

no bicycles 

Rockstar wanted to add that, but it was cut.

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)

Imagine trying to ride a bicycle through Algonquin with the amount of cars/obstacles and IV's original bike physics lol, it would be deadly.

 

Also I don't know why people are being given so much sh*t for liking Johnny in this thread, it's meant to be an appreciation thread!

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Ryo256
3 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Also I don't know why people are being given so much sh*t for liking Johnny in this thread, it's meant to be an appreciation thread!

 

Because:


t475ggL.png

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Algonquin Assassin
14 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Also I don't know why people are being given so much sh*t for liking Johnny in this thread, it's meant to be an appreciation thread!

I don't get it either.

 

There are similar "appreciation" threads in the GTA V forum for Michael, Franklin and Trevor that are way more civil (which is funny because apparently GTA IV fanboys are the worst people in the world who hate on GTA V 24/7 or atleast that's what we're led to believe). This thread's been kind of derailed since universetwisters started going on how people only started liking Johnny because of GTA V because it was fine before then and people had semblance of staying on f*cking topic.

 

IMO I think it should've been made in the TLAD forum as there would've been less chance of people who have no interest talking about Johnny in any sort of positive manner (which is you know the point of an appreciation thread) clogging it up. If only I still had the power of moderation. This sh*t would've been cleaned up days ago.

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Niobium

i hate trevor with a burning passion, but i would never go into a trevor appreciation thread and ruin it for others.

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Algonquin Assassin
1 minute ago, Niobium said:

i hate trevor with a burning passion, but i would never go into a trevor appreciation thread and ruin it for others.

And I'm sure if you did we'd never hear the end of it from the other side.

 

I've warned to Trevor a lot over the last year or so, but even when I didn't like him and considered to be one of the worst protagonists in the series I could never bring myself to go barn storming into a thread that's meant facilitate positive discussion about him because I'm not a troll. 

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

And I'm sure if you did we'd never hear the end of it from the other side.

 

I've warned to Trevor a lot over the last year or so, but even when I didn't like him and considered to be one of the worst protagonists in the series I could never bring myself to go barn storming into a thread that's meant facilitate positive discussion about him because I'm not a troll. 

You know I was this close to considering responding aggressively in this thread because it was about to turn into a GTA IV is just as flawed as V argument. But then I just realized, what's the point? The people who barge in like this usually go on with strawman arguments and try their best to pull down GTA IV and its characters to elevate V, finishing it off with a "both games are of similar quality so call it a day." 

Yeah no, I'm tired of arguing about it now but GTA IV, SA and VC (maybe III as well) sit on a level that V can't even dream of reaching and Rockstar hasn't really done anything to fix that with their obsession with Online. And I'm done trying to prove this to other players of how good the gameplay/characters/writing was in previous GTA games as compared to V, like massive difference I'm talking about since those games actually had a goal on what they wanted to be, V is....truly the Lost and the Damned? But anyway I'm done with this arguing business:

p93rJ8b.png

 

Edited by Ryo256
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MyNameIsNotImportantBro
21 minutes ago, Ryo256 said:

V is....truly the Lost and the Damned? But anyway I'm done with

Lmao, who said that TLaD is V? V is 100x time better, sorry TLaD fans.

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Ryo256
18 minutes ago, OmarMohammed said:

Lmao, who said that TLaD is V? V is 100x time better, sorry TLaD fans.

Qs9uyQ7.jpg

That's not what I said. You took it too literally, I meant that in terms of having a goal, GTA V is more "lost" and "damned" than the motto of Lost Biker gang back in TLAD. It was a word-play, not a literal statement.

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Algonquin Assassin
13 hours ago, Ryo256 said:

Qs9uyQ7.jpg

That's not what I said. You took it too literally, I meant that in terms of having a goal, GTA V is more "lost" and "damned" than the motto of Lost Biker gang back in TLAD. It was a word-play, not a literal statement.

I knew what you meant.;)

 

As for GTA V being better than TLAD..

 

41r3jz.jpg

 

And as Billy would say "Let the good times roll".😎

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Ryo256
9 hours ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

I knew what you meant.;)

DEBAUtJ.png

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Niobium

f*ck the haters, let's talk about how good johnny's character is like we should have been doing 3 pages ago

 

i just wanted to say that i think johnny's conversations with leavis are underrated

 

 

i love how they are polar opposites of each other (what with leavis serving rich elites and johnny being a rebellious biker), but they both are happy to see each other and get along quite well. i love johnny's philosophical quote "there's always a man, he just wears a different uniform"

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Algonquin Assassin

Speaking of Stubbs I think Johnny's interactions with him are gold when he goes into the sauna and Stubbs drops his towel and he's stark naked, but then Johnny's all weirded out lol.

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Night walker

Johnny last reply to Ashley email after completing the game
1. "Good luck, Ashley. And don't ever speak to me again." (if you reply positively)
2."f*ck Off."(if You reply negatively)

 

Still can't understand why he should appear in GTA V & still together with Ashley.His story should be over in Liberty City.

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Night walker said:

Johnny last reply to Ashley email after completing the game
1. "Good luck, Ashley. And don't ever speak to me again." (if you reply positively)
2."f*ck Off."(if You reply negatively)

 

Still can't understand why he should appear in GTA V & still together with Ashley.His story should be over in Liberty City.

They likely broke up and got together again multiple times before TLAD. He's already sworn they're finished at the beginning of the game, yet there she still is hanging around pulling on his heart strings and getting favours from him all the way through it, he didn't exactly make a clean break. Just because someone swears not to get back with someone doesn't mean that's actually what's going to happen. I think she's his weakness and as much as it's against his better judgement he loves her/cares about her deep down and can't help getting drawn back. The end of TLAD is a pretty depressing time for him, clubhouse destroyed, friends killed and living alone, that's a prime situation for getting back with an ex you shouldn't get back with. 

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

They likely broke up and got together again multiple times before TLAD. He's already sworn they're finished at the beginning of the game, yet there she still is hanging around pulling on his heart strings and getting favours from him all the way through it, he didn't exactly make a clean break. Just because someone swears not to get back with someone doesn't mean that's actually what's going to happen. I think she's his weakness and as much as it's against his better judgement he loves her/cares about her deep down and can't help getting drawn back. The end of TLAD is a pretty depressing time for him, clubhouse destroyed, friends killed and living alone, that's a prime situation for getting back with an ex you shouldn't get back with. 

Who knows maybe after Vice City, Tommy stopped being a crimelord and messed up a drug deal under another crimelord like Sonny.
After San Andreas, CJ left the hood and joined Ballas.
After IV, Niko started betraying people and cutting deals with Russians.
After EFLC, Luis killed Tony and took over the clubs.
After V, Michael ruined his relationship with his family again, Franklin killed Tanisha's husband and married her while living in the hood as a gangbanger and Trevor started living like a sane person.

Edited by Ryo256
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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Ryo256 said:

Who knows maybe after Vice City, Tommy stopped being a crimelord and messed up a drug deal under another crimelord like Sonny.
After San Andreas, CJ left the hood and joined Ballas.
After IV, Niko started betraying people and cutting deals with Russians.
After EFLC, Luis killed Tony and took over the clubs.
After V, Michael ruined his relationship with his family again, Franklin killed Tanisha's husband and married her while living in the hood as a gangbanger and Trevor started living like a sane person.

Haha! Really though I think getting back with Ashley on and off and having trouble letting go of her is firmly established in TLAD. It's like, the whole point of her character that she's his weakness. It's not like the entire focus of the end of the game is him solemnly swearing to never see her again, it's just a side-plot where he tells her to f off similar to how he's said that through the game but still kept doing favours for her and demonstrating that he still cares about her at the same time. Getting back with her again against his better judgement afterwards is just continuing the same established behaviour, it's not some crazy 180.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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Ryo256
11 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Haha! Really though I think getting back with Ashley on and off and having trouble letting go of her is firmly established in TLAD. It's like, the whole point of her character that she's his weakness. It's not like the entire focus of the end of the game is him solemnly swearing to never see her again, it's just a side-plot where he tells her to f off similar to how he's said that through the game but still kept doing favours for her and demonstrating that he still cares about her at the same time. Getting back with her again against his better judgement afterwards is just continuing the same established behaviour, it's not some crazy 180.

It's also established, firmly established that he has moved beyond his weakness. 

There is a difference between following firmly established behavior and character regression. Every crazy 180 I wrote about other protagonists, I can assure you that I can rationalize all of them because given enough explanation, you can rationalize anything. But if Johnny was gonna regress as a character, no point in wasting that much time in TLaD on Ashley but it was spent for a reason. It's just as a character regression if say, Sweet start endorsing crack in the hood after spending over missions and missions just to end the crack war just because he showed weakness to crack in one cutscene and his closest friends were also hooked on it? No, you wouldn't rationalize that if you were sincere and you shouldn't do it for Johnny either.

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ryo256 said:

It's also established, firmly established that he has moved beyond his weakness. 

There is a difference between following firmly established behavior and character regression. Every crazy 180 I wrote about other protagonists, I can assure you that I can rationalize all of them because given enough explanation, you can rationalize anything. But if Johnny was gonna regress as a character, no point in wasting that much time in TLaD on Ashley but it was spent for a reason. It's just as a character regression if say, Sweet start endorsing crack in the hood after spending over missions and missions just to end the crack war just because he showed weakness to crack in one cutscene and his closest friends were also hooked on it? No, you wouldn't rationalize that if you were sincere and you shouldn't do it for Johnny either.

I mean she's still there being given the time of day by him right up until the final mission, despite the fact he's been claiming since the beginning of the game that he's done with her. And then he just tells her to get lost at the end via phone/email, as he's no doubt done before. It's established that at that point he wants to try and break it off for good, but since it's also been established that he's said that before and then got back with her and/or still done favours for her I don't think it's implausible that he might still have that weakness and do it again.

 

There's other ways that he's grown as a character by the end and the side plot of him and Ashley is potentially one of them, but it isn't a big enough transformation that it would count as character regression to go back on it imo. At the end of TLAD on one hand Johnny has seen and learned a lot but on the other he's experienced tragedy and is left in what could be a rather depressing and vulnerable situation. So I feel like whether things go good or bad for him next is pretty open ended. 

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I mean she's still there being given the time of day by him right up until the final mission, despite the fact he's been claiming since the beginning of the game that he's done with her. And then he just tells her to get lost at the end via phone/email, as he's no doubt done before. It's established that at that point he wants to try and break it off for good, but since it's also been established that he's said that before and then got back with her and/or still done favours for her I don't think it's implausible that he might still have that weakness and do it again.

 

There's other ways that he's grown as a character by the end and the side plot of him and Ashley is potentially one of them, but it isn't a big enough transformation that it would count as character regression to go back on it imo. At the end of TLAD on one hand Johnny has seen and learned a lot but on the other he's experienced tragedy and is left in what could be a rather depressing and vulnerable situation. So I feel like whether things go good or bad for him next is pretty open ended. 

I see your point because it was one of the thought process I went through when I witnessed what they did to Johnny in V because I always like to support point of views I'm not sure of at first sight to see whether they actually hold water or not but there are two critical flaws I found: 

1. GTA V's writing for most part is horrendous (especially it's handling of returning characters), therefore giving Rockstar the benefit of the doubt seems more unreasonable.
2. Whether Johnny regressed or evolve in a natural and reasonable way, fact remains that V does a terrible job at showing it. Sure it will be talk about it a lot but it doesn't really show anything. Going back to the point 1, looking at this open-ended situation, good outcome is the natural choice because TLaD pushes towards that better than V. It also worth following the principle of innocent until proven guilty so if Johnny became a wreck in a reasonable way is the claim, where's the evidence? You have to assume too much before you may think of putting this stuff in the IV section let alone a Johnny appreciation thread.

Johnny continuously doing favors for Ashley is about as reasonable as Niko doing favors for Roman or Bruice despite his disapproval of how they treat women and wasting money in gambling/extravagant lifestyles but that doesn't mean we will expect Niko to go down the same path as Roman and Bruice just because those two have tried to drag him along in their mission sequences. Niko have resisted and it is reasonable to assume he will continue to resist much like Johnny always keep his distance from Ashley's meth addiction. Maybe not Ashley herself sure, but Ashley's meth addiction to Johnny is like betrayal is to Niko. You can't pluck these ideals out without explanation and start filling the holes for V's swiss-cheese writing.

Edited by Ryo256

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billiejoearmstrong8
1 hour ago, Ryo256 said:

I see your point because it was one of the thought process I went through when I witnessed what they did to Johnny in V because I always like to support point of views I'm not sure of at first sight to see whether they actually hold water or not but there are two critical flaws I found: 

1. GTA V's writing for most part is horrendous (especially it's handling of returning characters), therefore giving Rockstar the benefit of the doubt seems more unreasonable.
2. Whether Johnny regressed or evolve in a natural and reasonable way, fact remains that V does a terrible job at showing it. Sure it will be talk about it a lot but it doesn't really show anything. Going back to the point 1, looking at this open-ended situation, good outcome is the natural choice because TLaD pushes towards that better than V. It also worth following the principle of innocent until proven guilty so if Johnny became a wreck in a reasonable way is the claim, where's the evidence? You have to assume too much before you may think of putting this stuff in the IV section let alone a Johnny appreciation thread.

Johnny continuously doing favors for Ashley is about as reasonable as Niko doing favors for Roman or Bruice despite his disapproval of how they treat women and wasting money in gambling/extravagant lifestyles but that doesn't mean we will expect Niko to go down the same path as Roman and Bruice just because those two have tried to drag him along in their mission sequences. Niko have resisted and it is reasonable to assume he will continue to resist much like Johnny always keep his distance from Ashley's meth addiction. Maybe not Ashley herself sure, but Ashley's meth addiction to Johnny is like betrayal is to Niko. You can't pluck these ideals out without explanation and start filling the holes for V's swiss-cheese writing.

Ehh, V has its writing problems but as Johnny and The Lost only play a minor role I don't feel they had to include a large amount of detail. An outlaw biker who lives in squalor and associates with drugs users ending up becoming a drug addict has just never felt like a big stretch to me. 

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Ryo256
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Ehh, V has its writing problems but as Johnny and The Lost only play a minor role I don't feel they had to include a large amount of detail. An outlaw biker who lives in squalor and associates with drugs users ending up becoming a drug addict has just never felt like a big stretch to me. 

But Johnny isn't just any other outlaw biker, right? Just like Niko isn't just another immigrant killer who only works for money.

And of course the prime example of Dwayne, the guy who sold drugs and built an entire business out of it but never got into them. Because he was different, Niko was different and of course Johnny was different. That's what makes them interesting in the first place.

Edited by Ryo256

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