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The Wolf Man

Low honor Arthur is nonsensical

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The Wolf Man

We have an honor system that can change certain dialogues and the ending.

The low honor gameplay however doesn't make any sense, since it's going against the story R* is trying to tell us. The game is called Red Dead Redemption. Arthur is an outlaw sure, he kills and robs people through the entire game, but he can also be kind and helpful with others, and he ultimately regrets the wrongdoings of his life in the end. 

There is no redemption with low honor and Arthur behavior is confusing at times. He knows he is going to die from tuberculosis, but also wants to take the money and run away, giving up on John & his family in the last mission. He's driven by greed but is also worried with Eage Flies and the Indias... It doesn't make much sense to me. 

 

 

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Ripstart01

You're right, it doesn't make any sense at all. Most of the 'low honor' options throughout the story are small antagonistic responses or walking away from situations where he could have helped. To actually play the game with the lowest honor requires a lot more than that.

 

I keep a save with the lowest honor Arthur and he is maximum weight, shaved head with level 7 facial hair.. goes around doing despicable things and covering up the crimes. If anyone says anything negative in response to a greeting, they are knocked out or followed and choked to death. I think the low honor system is more about gameplay options rather than anything to do with the story. A quick way to lower your honor fast is to get into a massive brawl behind the Saint Denis stables, and once you have about 50 bodies piles up, throw a fire bottle. 

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GinsengElixir

The low honour ending seems so out of place. Both from narrative and gameplay perspective low honour doesn't really flow well, it's just an arbitrary choice a player can make.

 

Mid, mixed honour is how I like to play and what I consider to be canon, until chapter 6.

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JumpingKentFlash

It doesn’t make much sense no, but it’s the one I had. I actually like his death better in the low honour.

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Cutter De Blanc

Its also nonsensical for John to have low honor. So what we're left with is a game where the gameplay encourages you to commit crimes, at odds with the narrative which condemns it.

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JB1982

I agree that it's nonsensical given the narrative. Ultimately though it's there because of the freedom Rockstar gives to the player in most of it's games. That can sometimes contradict the story side of things unfortunately.

 

In some ways it would make sense to put some kind of forced lock on the low honour at the end of Chapter Five. Up to that point you are free to do what you want and if that involves obtaining low honour, fine. You have the freedom you expect from a Rockstar game there. But once Chapter Five ends and Chapter Six kicks in, you are restricted from committing low honour stuff. At that point it's only possible to do high honour activities when free roaming. You then have the chance to push Arthur up to high honour before the end. It becomes a challenge for those who played up to that point with low honour. Can they essentially earn Arthur redemption by getting him up to high honour? Or does their Arthur fail despite a willingness to change? Have they left it (and therefore has Arthur left it) too late to change despite the narrative intentions?

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The Wolf Man
1 hour ago, JB1982 said:

I agree that it's nonsensical given the narrative. Ultimately though it's there because of the freedom Rockstar gives to the player in most of it's games. That can sometimes contradict the story side of things unfortunately.

 

In some ways it would make sense to put some kind of forced lock on the low honour at the end of Chapter Five. Up to that point you are free to do what you want and if that involves obtaining low honour, fine. You have the freedom you expect from a Rockstar game there. But once Chapter Five ends and Chapter Six kicks in, you are restricted from committing low honour stuff. At that point it's only possible to do high honour activities when free roaming. You then have the chance to push Arthur up to high honour before the end. It becomes a challenge for those who played up to that point with low honour. Can they essentially earn Arthur redemption by getting him up to high honour? Or does their Arthur fail despite a willingness to change? Have they left it (and therefore has Arthur left it) too late to change despite the narrative intentions?

It's a good idea, but I feel that the honor system itself is unfair. During the trolley mission in Saint Denis (Ch. 4, with Dutch and Lenny) you will lose honor for killing the cops, but you do not lose honor for killing cops when rescuing John from the state prision with Sadie. 

Edited by The Wolf Man
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UpTheDowngrade

I got low honor yesterday, and the whole town of Van Horn trying to kill me, for participating in the duel outside the bar. FFS

Edited by UpTheDowngrade
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Ripstart01

There is also a possible reset method in the Epilogue. I had low honor as John and after meeting Rains Fall at the Annesburg station my honor skipped straight to 100%

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Platypus92

I agree with the OP, and I kinda already saw this coming before the game's release. Playing as a low honor Arthur feels weird and out of place, especially in chapter 6. I hope the next Red Dead game will have a more ambiguous character, a character who can be an asshole or a good guy. Someone who behaves differently depending on the honor level.

 

Another thing I want to add: I was hoping to see a deeper honor system than the one in RDR1, but it's still as shallow. As we know, when you play the last mission of chapter 6, the ending depends on the honor level you have at that moment. I think that's the wrong way. You can act like an asshole throughout the whole game and have low honor, but as long as your honor level is good right before the final mission, you will get the 'good honor' ending. And vice versa. Instead, I think they should do it like this: the game should count how many honorable and dishonorable choices you made, and if you made more honorable than dishonorable choices, you should get the 'good honor' ending. If you made more dishonorable choices, you get the 'bad honor' ending.

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IzzyBlues

I was really hoping that lowest possible honor/maxed out honor would also have a bearing on the story.

 

I'm talking 0% honor, and 100% honor having a slight shift in the narrative or cut-scene.

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JB1982
7 hours ago, IzzyBlues93 said:

I was really hoping that lowest possible honor/maxed out honor would also have a bearing on the story.

 

I'm talking 0% honor, and 100% honor having a slight shift in the narrative or cut-scene.

I'd like to see this as the next step Rockstar take with their choice/honour system. They've had it in place now going back to GTA IV I believe but it's largely cosmetic in nature such as letting you choose how to perform a heist in GTA V or it only directly affects the end of the game such as the choice you are faced with as Niko and Franklin in GTA IV and V. I'd like to see in the future with RDR3 or GTA VI (or whatever the next game is utilising these features) a divergent path earlier in the narrative based on how you play. With RDR2 for example you could have the game play out as it does until Chapter 5 but then Chapter 6 plays out based on your honour rating with Arthur's motives being different. Certain missions would be only be available because you went the low honour path, others are only available because you went the high honour path, missions appearing on both paths no longer give you choices because your honour level has already made that choice for you, the dialogue and cut scenes are different on missions appearing on both paths due to your honour level etc.

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Dan_1983

Even the high honour go for money ending don't make sense to me. Arthur has no need for the money seeing as he is on a death sentence. Helping John is the only way. 

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IzzyBlues

I think the whole "going for the money" thing was more based on revenge against Micah and Dutch. They both f*cked him over and he is pissed about it, I can't imagine Arthur having much use for the money.

 

I would imagine he would have destroyed it or have given it to those who needed it before his time was up so to speak. After all, honorable or not, they had a code and Arthur respected that code. At least that's how I was personally able to justify the low honor ending.

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Cutter De Blanc

My low honor Arthur's attitude was, "f*ck this I'm taking as many motherf*ckers to hell with me as I can before I die"

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volta2001

It definitely makes more sense for Arthur to be honorable. But, before the game came out I knew I wanted to play as the ultimate bad guy because it made absolutely no sense to have low honor in redemption 1, and boy did I accomplish that goal. So yes r* gives the player the choice because at the end of the day, it’s a video game. I’m currently on a high honor file and enjoying it a lot 

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The Wolf Man

The way I see it, the best way to enjoy the game is doing all of your dishonorable acts during Ch.1-4, then starting to preserve/increase your honor from Ch. 5 onwards.

 

Like @volta2001 said, players wanted to be able to play RDR2 as an ultimate outlaw.

Edited by The Wolf Man

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Cutter De Blanc

On my first playthrough I was very angry Arthur was dying, and I had been playing low honor all game anyway so I just went with the anger.

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PwnageSoldier

Honestly it would be nice if the honor system had an overhaul entirely. More than just basic storyline stuff should change due to honor, like for example, maybe some optional characters you could meet would become completely unavailable with low/high honor.

 

edit: and if you were to raise or lower your honor to where the character would become available again after the fact, they wouldn't trust you, and would require you to complete a difficult "prove yourself" mission which would spike your honor in whichever the direction that character is; and would cause ripples in the main story itself

Edited by PwnageSoldier
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Don Maximus Meridius

Low honor Arthur have funny dialogues in the camp, being extremely rude with everyone.

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Dan_1983
13 hours ago, IzzyBlues93 said:

I think the whole "going for the money" thing was more based on revenge against Micah and Dutch. They both f*cked him over and he is pissed about it, I can't imagine Arthur having much use for the money.

 

I would imagine he would have destroyed it or have given it to those who needed it before his time was up so to speak. After all, honorable or not, they had a code and Arthur respected that code. At least that's how I was personally able to justify the low honor ending.

Arthur didn't believe in revenge though. 

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The Wolf Man
10 minutes ago, Dan_1983 said:

Arthur didn't believe in revenge though. 

I don't think it's about revenge.

 

It's about the gang's code and loyalty. If you talk you get shot (Micah talked) and the money belongs to everyone in the gang, not only Dutch and Micah.

 

The high honor Arthur however does not believe in loyalty or codes anymore. All he cares about is the safety of John and his family. That's how I see it.

Edited by The Wolf Man
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Tonesta
14 hours ago, Dan_1983 said:

Arthur didn't believe in revenge though. 

High Honor Arthur didn't believe in revenge - I believe much of the dialog for Low Honor Arthur is very much in favour of it.

 

For example, in American Venom, if Arthur had high honor, Charles will say "Arthur would not have wanted revenge". If Arthur had low honor, Charles will say "Revenge is something Arthur would have stood behind."

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