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doppelblind

What are the 'Other Apps' in Graphics Settings

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doppelblind

From gamelaunch on RDR2 only displayed 2600MB of vram being available, tough I have 2 Graphics Cards with 4GB vram each. On 2 occasions in early December the game displayed about 3900MB being available (*), but without applying any updates the game went back to displaying 2600MB being available.

 

The 1232.13 patch/update introduced a new value been displayed in graphics settings: Other Apps.

 

With it the total value of Vram being available went up to 3942MB, but a huge portion was/is reserved to the new introduced other apps. So the net MB being available did not change.

 

On Windows7 these other apps used about 1342 MB of my GTX970's 4GB ram that was/is displayed ingame as being 3942MB total. These apps could not be adjusted or lowered by turning off other progs running on the system.

 

After I updated to Windows10 a week ago, these other apps now only use 591MB, but again they can't be adjusted or lowered. I am happy with the additional 700MB being available to assort to the game, but I am wondering what these other apps are, and if there is a way to reduce their usage of VRAM.

Rockstar Support is silent about this, and won't tell what these other apps are, why their vram usage varies between different OS, or even if they are run by the game and thus mandatory.

 

Does anybody know what these other apps are?

Rig:

FX8120 on Crosshair V Formula

16GB G-Skill Ripjaws

2x EVGA GTX 970 SC
Bootdisc 512GB SSD

Gamedisc 960GB SSD

Win 10 Professional
Monitor Strix XG 35 VQ (3440x1440 100Hz)

 

P.S.: (*) Don't remember the correct value, did not make a screenshot, but it was not 3942MB, more likely a value under 3900.

Edited by doppelblind

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VIPΣR

it's vram reserved for Windows 

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Dryspace

Being suddenly able to use only 75% of one's VRAM for games should not be acceptable to anyone.  This is not wanting something extra and not getting it--this is a situation in which hardware costing from hundreds to thousands of dollars is being crippled to a significant degree. There is no legitimate reason for this. Whatever the reason, it is not legitimate.

 

Many people spend additional money on cards in large part because they need the additional VRAM and not just the additional power. But listen to me! I shouldn't be reduced to offering justifications:

 

"Hey Mister! I golly-shore would like to be able to use all my VRAM! Scout's honor, I really do need to use all the VRAM I paid for! Shucks...I figure bein' able to use all my VRAM would be just about the swellest thing in the world! Mister?....Hey, Mister!"

 

I had meant to pursue this subject in another thread, but this seems as good a place as any. In order to gain as much information as possible about this situation, I invite everyone to post his OS, GPU, and the amount of VRAM reported as being used when there are no applications running (or with Windows 10, the normal conditions under which one would launch a demanding game...whatever that is).

 

On Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit, with an RTX 2080 Ti Black, my total reserved VRAM is:

 

With a desktop size of 1920x1080: 218MB (1.9% of total VRAM)

With a desktop size of 3840x2160: 272MB (2.4% of total VRAM)

 

BPoBNfC.jpgqHrzyIf.jpg

Edited by Dryspace
Clarification
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doppelblind

I also encourage anybody that has a SLi-Setup to watch if the game utilizes the vram of both cards.
 

I just downloaded GPU-Z and watched while RDR2 ran a benchmark. The game is set to currently use 3474MB of the 3942MB it displays as being available. GPU-Z shows that the game utilizes only one GPU, but it utilizes the vram of both cards. On my side the usage of vram peaks out at 100%, using all vram of both cards.

So it now somehow became irrelevant to me what the game displays as being usable or not. It uses everything that is available anyway.

 

I made some screenshots of GPU-Z, but it seems i can't upload them directly to this reply.

On my system the desktop 3440x1440 uses about 330MB of vram of each card, so it totals to about 650-700MB.

With RG-Launcher it uses 430MB of each card, so it totals to 850-900MB.
With RDR2 it uses 3500 of each card on average and peaks out at using all 4096MB of each card, so it totals to 7000-8190MB.

What I don't get is why RDR2 does not register the vram in graphics settings, when it uses it anyways.

Edited by doppelblind

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Dryspace
18 hours ago, doppelblind said:

I also encourage anybody that has a SLi-Setup to watch if the game utilizes the vram of both cards.
 

I just downloaded GPU-Z and watched while RDR2 ran a benchmark. The game is set to currently use 3474MB of the 3942MB it displays as being available. GPU-Z shows that the game utilizes only one GPU, but it utilizes the vram of both cards. On my side the usage of vram peaks out at 100%, using all vram of both cards.

So it now somehow became irrelevant to me what the game displays as being usable or not. It uses everything that is available anyway.

 

I made some screenshots of GPU-Z, but it seems i can't upload them directly to this reply.

On my system the desktop 3440x1440 uses about 330MB of vram of each card, so it totals to about 650-700MB.

With RG-Launcher it uses 430MB of each card, so it totals to 850-900MB.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Hmmm...this seems odd. You say that your VRAM utilization is 330MB at 3440x1440 with only Windows (10?) running. While that is higher than mine is at 3840x2160 (272MB), it represents 8% of total VRAM, which is not outrageous.

 

However, you say that RDR2 reports a total of 3942MB available, which is a basal utilization of only 154MB. Assuming that this is correct, and that the basal VRAM utilization actually decreases upon launching of RDR2, that would mean that RDR2 has access to 96.2% of your card's VRAM, which is far more than the abysmal ~73 - 82% that other users are reporting.

 

One point: If the utilization always reads exactly the same for both cards, whether on the desktop or in-game, then it would appear that only the VRAM of one card is available for use. This is the traditional case in SLI, in which one copy of all data is sent to both cards. I don't believe that RDR2 makes use of the combined VRAM feature of the newer APIs.

 

Quote

With RDR2 it uses 3500 of each card on average and peaks out at using all 4096MB of each card, so it totals to 7000-8190MB.

If you're referring to a measurement by GPU-Z or another utility, wouldn't this include all utilization, including reserved VRAM? You have to admit that RDR2 alone using 100% of VRAM would be surprising--especially considering that the most the game expects to use with your given settings is 3474MB?

 

P.S. For images, I upload them to imgur.com, and then paste the link into the text of my post. I think the option 'BBCode' is the one that can be pasted directly into a GTAForums post, though perhaps one or more of the others will work that way as well.

Edited by Dryspace
Correction

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doppelblind

The values represent the total consumption of vram, as GPU-Z can't read the single values. If RDR2 alone would try to harbor all the vram, Windows would surely crash.
With RDR2 the total consumption averages in 3500MB on each card, Win10, its backround processes, and RG-Launcher use 450MB on each card, so the rest is used by RDR2.
That is like 6000MB on average when the game is set to only use 3474MB, and I don't get why the game does this. Does it recognize and utilize free vram?

 

But another thing I don't get is the clockspeed of the vram. It should be at 3000MHz, and boost at 3500MHz, but during Benchmark the vram of GPU0 clocks at about 1800MHz and vram of GPU1 only clocks at merely 162MHz.
If I use Evga Precision X and enable the K-Boost feature, both cards are forced to run at boost-speed all the time, but there is no significant change in RDR2's performance, the cards only get louder due to the additional heat that is produced, and the steeper fan curve that is applied.

Edited by doppelblind
typo

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Dryspace
3 hours ago, doppelblind said:

The values represent the total consumption of vram, as GPU-Z can't read the single values. If RDR2 alone would try to harbor all the vram, Windows would surely crash.

Right, like I said: "...wouldn't this include all utilization, including reserved VRAM?" I just misunderstood what you wrote and thought you were attempting to show how much RDR2 itself was using.

 

Quote


With RDR2 the total consumption averages in 3500MB on each card, Win10, its backround processes, and RG-Launcher use 450MB on each card, so the rest is used by RDR2.
That is like 6000MB on average when the game is set to only use 3474MB, and I don't get why the game does this. Does it recognize and utilize free vram?

Well, unfortunately RDR2 does not have the ability to combine the VRAM of both cards in SLI (RDR2 actually does not officially support SLI at all).

 

Merged VRAM is possible using newer APIs, but RDR2 doesn't support it. This means that your total VRAM is 4096, not 8192. That's why your cards always report exactly the same amount of VRAM utilization on either card: Since the cards can't pass the contents of VRAM back and forth, both cards must each have a copy of all data.

 

Quote

But another thing I don't get is the clockspeed of the vram. It should be at 3000MHz, and boost at 3500MHz, but during Benchmark the vram of GPU0 clocks at about 1800MHz and vram of GPU1 only clocks at merely 162MHz.
If I use Evga Precision X and enable the K-Boost feature, both cards are forced to run at boost-speed all the time, but there is no significant change in RDR2's performance, the cards only get louder due to the additional heat that is produced, and the steeper fan curve that is applied.

Is it only memory speed that is a problem? Are the base/GPU clocks correct?

 

You should try to find help from someone who knows more about this issue than I do. The only input I can offer is that maybe RDR2 is limited by processing power rather than memory throughput.

 

One thing I might suggest is to verify that the same thing occurs in single-card mode, in order to eliminate an SLI-specific issue.

Edited by Dryspace

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doppelblind

So both cards always store a copy of each others vram, and my assumption to add the values of both cards was bull. That's why the second cards vram is utilized, and as the second cards vram only stores a copy that is not accessed by the game, that's also clearly the reason why the clockspeed on GPU1 is so low. Also that is why the Game runs exactly the same with one or two cards, as I just tested. 

 

Vram-clockspeeds or GPU-clockspeeds are not an issue on my side, I was just wondering why there was a difference between both cards. Now I know why, but I still don't get why the vram is not clocking at full boost speed when that GPU is clocked to boost and at 99% average workload.
A game like The Crew without SLi-support is always boosting the vram clockspeed to 3500Mhz, even if utilization of the GPU is much lower than 99%.
GTAV utilizes both cards in SLi, both GPU are clocking at boost speed, and vram of GPU0 is always at 3500MHz, while GPU1 is mostly at 3000MHz but sometimes also boosts to 3500Mhz for brief periods.
So RDR2 is the first time I see a game fully utilizing one GPU, but clocking the vram at just 1800MHz when at least 3000Mhz would be standard. 
 

My problem was being unable to assort all of my 4096MB from one card vram to RDR2. I assumed that the way vram is displayed ingame is more or less like in GTA 5, which displays the full 8190MB being available to assort to the game.

Now I assume that applying the whole of vram to a game is merely impossible, and the way GTA 5 displays the vram being available is bias, or at least the systems base consumption and reserve of vram is merged into the displayed value of the games vram consumption. So it simply doesn't show up, and bother me.

 

Now assuming that my desktop only uses about 350MB of vram, RG-Launcher uses another 100MB, and the remaining 3650MB are used by RDR2.  It roughly corresponds with the 3474MB vram, I assorted to RDR2 in settings, it also more or less corresponds with the 591MB being reserved to other apps. Maybe the remaining 150MB for other apps is even reserved for other background programs like DX12 or Vulcan, and RDR2 really only uses the 3474Mb I assorted in settings.

At least the game registers 96,24% of the vram, though only roughly 85% are assortable to the game.

 

EDIT: If there were a way to have all processes running except for RDR2 to assort to one GPU, and leave the other solely to RDR2. So the 'other apps' wouldn't consume the vram that can be accessed by the game, that would be nice. But even if there were, maybe the reserved 591MB are reserved mandatory no matter what the system is actually consuming.

 

EDIT2: Actually there could be a way to assort the game to the second GPU. RDR2's settings have a value named something like display adapter, I suppose that is the no. of GPU/Graphics Card. Only on my games install it is set to 0 and greyed out, so I don't really know.

 

 

Edited by doppelblind

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Dryspace
4 hours ago, doppelblind said:

So RDR2 is the first time I see a game fully utilizing one GPU, but clocking the vram at just 1800MHz when at least 3000Mhz would be standard.

Sorry, I did misunderstand--I didn't notice that only one of the GPUs was not reaching normal VRAM speed. Now the issue is that your primary GPU is at 1800MHz instead of 3000MHz+, right?

 

Quote

My problem was being unable to assort all of my 4096MB from one card vram to RDR2. I assumed that the way vram is displayed ingame is more or less like in GTA 5, which displays the full 8190MB being available to assort to the game...Now I assume...the way GTA 5 displays the vram being available is bias

You're right: If GTAV shows '8192MB' as Total Available VRAM, then it's obviously a programming mistake. Even though GTAV supports SLI, it should only be listing the single-card VRAM amount, since that's all you can use.

 

Quote

At least the game registers 96,24% of the vram, though only roughly 85% are assortable to the game.

What is odd is that RDR2 lists the Total Available VRAM as '3942MB', yet Windows 10 alone is supposedly utilizing 330MB. As I understand, RDR2 should be reporting only that VRAM which is available to be used by RDR2 (and not in use by other processes). If the amount of VRAM utliized prior to launching RDR2 is ~350 + ~100 = ~450MB, then the Total Available should be ~3646MB. And thus, the amount that RDR2 can actually utilize (depending on resolution/settings) would be no more than this.

 

So as I indicated in my first reply, it would seem that either VRAM is being freed up when the game starts....or there is a discrepancy somewhere.

 

Quote

EDIT: If there were a way to have all processes running except for RDR2 to assort to one GPU, and leave the other solely to RDR2. So the 'other apps' wouldn't consume the vram that can be accessed by the game, that would be nice. But even if there were, maybe the reserved 591MB are reserved mandatory no matter what the system is actually consuming.

Yes, that would be an intelligent way of doing things! TOO intelligent! 🤨

 

But as far as I'm concerned, when a game is running in fullscreen, any VRAM that was previously being used should have its contents transferred to RAM, since the only thing that should be using VRAM is the game. It may take slightly longer to switch between the game and the desktop, but I would consider that a tiny price to pay in exchange for being able to devote all of my VRAM to a demanding game.

 

Quote

EDIT2: Actually there could be a way to assort the game to the second GPU. RDR2's settings have a value named something like display adapter...Only on my games install it is set to 0 and greyed out, so I don't really know.

That might be because only one of your GPUs has a display attached. If you attached a display to the other GPU, you might be able to change the setting in-game. But other than that, since RDR2 has no official multi-GPU support, I don't think there's any way to render on one card, but display on another.

 

There's something I'm curious about if you have a chance to test it. When you open additional programs before launching RDR2--a Web browser e.g., which typically uses a lot of VRAM--does the Total Available VRAM listed in RDR2 decrease? Or does it stay the same no matter what?

Edited by Dryspace
Clarification

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doppelblind

The displayed value 3942MB, and 591MB reserved for other apps always stays the same.

So just for the fun of it, I started GTA4 minmized it, and then started GPU-Z twice to monitor both cards. GPU-Z reports a total of 980MB vram being used. Then starting RG-Launcher the total of used vram rises to 1050MB, and after starting RDR2 and opening the settings menu the total used vram is at 2000MB. Running a benchmark with GTA 4 in the background results in overall lower fps for RDR2, the utilized vram is at 3700MB and oddly stays the same when I quit GTA4 while RDR2 stays running.

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Jason

Video RAM is not video game RAM, it is needed and used by anything to display video/picture on your monitor, such as your OS and all the programs you have open. Multiple monitors and resolution will also influence your VRAM usage. If you have two or more monitors and you're playing a game on one monitor then the other monitor(s) are also using VRAM, even if they are displaying nothing but your desktop wallpaper.

 

If you want to see what those "other apps" are, open up task manager, click the "Details" tab and then right click on one of the column headers and through select columns scroll to the bottom and click the four GPU related columns. This will show you what is using VRAM, most of your VRAM outside of video games and things like photo and video editing is likely used by dwm.exe, which is the Windows display manager.

 

This is not something new, it's how computers work. If you're running into VRAM issues you can try and disable things like Aero and various Windows effects to help, although Windows should be disabling this automatically when a game is run as far as I know. In my experience those "Total VRAM used" bars in games are iffy at best and shouldn't really be taken as 100% fact, they're more of a visual representation to assist inexperienced people when determining graphics settings suitable for their hardware. Basically, they're meant to stop people cranking textures to max on budget cards and then moaning about optimisation when they get 4fps.

Edited by Jason
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Dryspace
1 hour ago, Jason said:

Video RAM is not video game RAM, it is needed and used by anything to display video/picture on your monitor, such as your OS and all the programs you have open.

That's correct. What I'm interested in is why so many people are reporting as little as 73% of VRAM available in RDR2, as well as certain other games. As far as I can tell, it seems to be a Windows 10 issue, or perhaps a DX12 issue. That might not sound so bad if we were talking about ~500MB being "set aside" on a 2GB card (though I still insist that shouldn't happen if no other programs are running, and a game is in fullscreen mode), but people are reporting ~1.5GB of a 6GB card being unavailable to use in-game.

 

Quote

...they're more of a visual representation to assist inexperienced people when determining graphics settings suitable for their hardware. Basically, they're meant to stop people cranking textures to max on budget cards and then moaning about optimisation when they get 4fps.

Ehhh......I don't think that's right? I won't argue with you about VRAM meters serving as hard evidence that people are "doing it wrong"--that's an interesting notion and makes sense. Unless you're suggesting that devs assign random VRAM values to each setting, I think they serve as useful tools for those of us who spend a lot of time configuring and tweaking a game, usually in order to get the maximum quality while keeping framerates from dropping below the refresh rate.

 

And in GTAV, it allowed to me to know how much VRAM I needed if I wanted to run 1600x1200 at 2x Frame Scaling with 4x MSAA (A lot more than I had available).

Edited by Dryspace

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Jason
2 hours ago, Dryspace said:

That's correct. What I'm interested in is why so many people are reporting as little as 73% of VRAM available in RDR2, as well as certain other games. As far as I can tell, it seems to be a Windows 10 issue, or perhaps a DX12 issue. That might not sound so bad if we were talking about ~500MB being "set aside" on a 2GB card (though I still insist that shouldn't happen if no other programs are running, and a game is in fullscreen mode), but people are reporting ~1.5GB of a 6GB card being unavailable to use in-game.

Most likely Windows reserved VRAM I'd guess. You'd have to see what's using it on a computer by computer basis to know for sure obviously, but Windows in my experience tends to use and reserve more RAM (video and standard) the more you have available.

 

I don't have the knowledge to really say for sure why Windows reserves VRAM or uses it while fullscreen in a game so I can't say for sure but my guess is it's reserved so whatever is using it (the desktop and other apps running, I presume) can be called upon the moment the user asks, say if he/she alt tabs or something. I imagine it's somewhat similar to why Window will use normal RAM while playing fullscreen games and things like that, even when the programs and services using that RAM aren't actively doing anything at that time.

 

2 hours ago, Dryspace said:

Unless you're suggesting that devs assign random VRAM values to each setting, I think they serve as useful tools for those of us who spend a lot of time configuring and tweaking a game, usually in order to get the maximum quality while keeping framerates from dropping below the refresh rate.

 

And in GTAV, it allowed to me to know how much VRAM I needed if I wanted to run 1600x1200 at 2x Frame Scaling with 4x MSAA (A lot more than I had available).

No I'm not suggesting it's random, what you're talking about is basically what I mean. It's a guideline to use when choosing your graphics settings but it's mainly aimed at inexperienced users I would presume, most tech savvy gamers who min/max their settings know what their PC is capable of and how games should run on it based on the official system requirements alone.

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Dryspace
14 hours ago, Jason said:

...Windows in my experience tends to use and reserve more RAM (video and standard) the more you have available.

That behavior itself wouldn't be an issue as long as Windows does not withhold VRAM from games for no legitimate reason. I'm still trying to investigate this, to determine if it is indeed an issue and not just people running games with browsers open, etc., and if it is, what exactly is responsible for the change.

 

14 hours ago, Jason said:

...It's a guideline to use when choosing your graphics settings but it's mainly aimed at inexperienced users I would presume, most tech savvy gamers who min/max their settings know what their PC is capable of and how games should run on it based on the official system requirements alone.

I like to think of myself as "tech savvy", but I wouldn't have known how much VRAM certain individual features require if it weren't for such meters. Depending upon how a feature is implemented, it could require very little VRAM or a whole lot. I'm not suggesting such a meter is required of course, but if nothing else I find it an educational and welcome addition.

 

If you are running Windows 10, is your VRAM utilization when no programs are running more than 200 - 400MB?

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Jason

You'd really have to define what is legitimate to you, cause Windows and other operating systems reserving memory isn't done because the creators of those operating systems want to be d*cks, the OS needs it to run, therefore it reserves a portion so it always has enough. Having an issue with this is like having an issue with your legs getting tired when you walk, you can't have one without the other.

 

And again, the VRAM bars you see in games are very... loose. For example, I was playing Monster Hunter World today which has a window in the graphics settings that tells me how much VRAM my current graphic settings will use, but the game was almost 2gb short of hitting what it said it would when the game was actually loaded up.

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Dryspace
8 minutes ago, Jason said:

You'd really have to define what is legitimate to you

It's not about what's legitimate to me, it's what is legitimate, period. It is illegitimate to reserve VRAM beyond that which is required by Windows for basic functionality. Video RAM is not required unless something is being displayed, or a program is running which utilizes GPU acceleration.

 

If a person launches one or more programs that utilize VRAM, and then launches a game, he can expect to have less VRAM available to the game. If on the other hand, Windows is preventing a game from using a large amount of VRAM simply because Windows thinks it might need to use it at some point, or that the user might decide to open some additional programs, there is a problem. This is because people purchase gaming GPUs and their associated memory for gaming, not for Windows. If this weren't the case, they would simply utilize integrated video.

 

If one is accustomed to Windows understandably utilizing or reserving a couple hundred MB, and suddenly finds that Windows is reserving 2 - 6 times that amount, resulting in an associated reduction in VRAM available to games, I believe that the appropriate reaction is consternation, and not passive acceptance.

 

But as I said, at this point the situation is not clear to me. What I do feel to be clear is that Windows should not be withholding or refusing to free up any VRAM that is not currently required upon switching to the desktop.

 

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

...reserving memory isn't done because the creators of those operating systems want to be d*cks...

Come on! That isn't helpful. Unless...do you think maybe that's the reason? 🙃

 

About your VRAM utilization, though? If I can get enough input from various Windows 10/DX12 users, I may be able to determine that this is just a misunderstanding.

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doppelblind

After suggesting a lot of 'fixes' and workarounds, that did not help with my problem, I finally got a usable answer from r* about this other apps. Though its not a positive one, I now finally now that r* wont be fixing this issue. R* has seemingly come to the conclusion that the portion of vram reserved for this other apps is not their problem. They suggest that Microsoft is the party responsible for this other apps being reserved.

 

Evga Support are also aware of this problem, but again they say it's not a graphics related issue, and they or Nvidia also can't do nothing about it.

 

What I don't get is why RDR2 is the only game I am aware of, that reserves this portion of vram for other apps.
It's been said here before and confirmed to me by Evga support that on game start anything running on the system frees up its portion of vram to the game.
So in my understanding there should be no necessity to reserve vram to other apps, and I am also not aware of any game besides RDR2 that reserves this portion of vram.
 

So I am somewhat confused about this issue. I feel like a ping-pong ball being played back and forth between R* and Microsoft.

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