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Mister Pink

Official Xbox: Series X | Series S Thread

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Jason
Posted (edited)

Yea as someone who plays on PC and loosely follows PC hardware (usually when I'm looking at upgrades) it's always been weird when I see console makers bang on about Tflops cause they are the only people who use it as a way to try and showcase power.

 

I feel like it's just the easiest number to compare across console generations that they can definitively point at and "look, it's bigger than last time!".

 

There's another thing that's bugging with me next-gen consoles too and it's the SSD. It's going to be great and much needed, but if storage space is an issue it's very likely they'll be offering USB storage again so developers will have to make games with USB storage in mind (also PC players who don't all have SSD's ofc), so the only improvements we'll see because of the SSD will probably be load times at the end of the day.

Edited by Jason
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Mister Pink
9 minutes ago, Static said:

Just wanna point out there's far more to gpu performance than just Tflops. AMD's Vega 64 could pull 12.66 Tflops, but since GNC (architecture) was pretty sh*t, it ended up being a wash anyways.  That being said, RDNA is a completely different animal and hopefully RDNA 2 will be a substantial improvement and not a simple refresh.

I'm glad you did. I haven't a clue. 

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Static
Posted (edited)

That bragging about the SSDs as "new tech" really put me off. At the very very best, it could a pcie 4.0 nvme drive, but i dont think they could afford that and keep to the 500 pricepoint. So that leaves gen 3 nvme drives, which by all standards are pretty good long as the have dram cache, or it's just gotta be a SATA III SSD. 

 

Post image

Edited by Static

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GTA3Rockstar
Posted (edited)
On 3/1/2020 at 5:38 PM, Static said:

Just wanna point out there's far more to gpu performance than just Tflops. AMD's Vega 64 could pull 12.66 Tflops, but since GNC (architecture) was pretty sh*t, it ended up being a wash anyways.  That being said, RDNA is a completely different animal and hopefully RDNA 2 will be a substantial improvement and not a simple refresh.

They're claiming it'll be 50% better performance for the same power consumption, so that should be a BIG boost.

 

 

On 3/1/2020 at 5:46 PM, Jason said:

There's another thing that's bugging with me next-gen consoles too and it's the SSD. It's going to be great and much needed, but if storage space is an issue it's very likely they'll be offering USB storage again so developers will have to make games with USB storage in mind (also PC players who don't all have SSD's ofc), so the only improvements we'll see because of the SSD will probably be load times at the end of the day.

Nah, I don't think so. It's not like we can't transfer games between external and internal. Which should be a very quick transfer

 

Then just keep your top 5-8 games played on it.

 

 

On 3/1/2020 at 5:53 PM, Static said:

That bragging about the SSDs as "new tech" really put me off. At the very very best, it could a pcie 4.0 nvme drive, but i dont think they could afford that and keep to the 500 pricepoint. So that leaves gen 3 nvme drives, which by all standards are pretty good long as the have dram cache, or it's just gotta be a SATA III SSD. 

img snip

 

According to this - https://www.gizchina.com/2020/01/14/microsoft-xbox-series-x-will-use-groupe-controlled-pcie-4-0-ssd/ It's PCIe at 7GB/s.

 

Plus, you can mock it all you want with that Linus pic but it's gonna be a big improvement for PC, too. Developers will be more efficient coding with SSD in mind instead of the old sh*t. lol

 

As Stever Kesler once said, consoles dictate PCs https://www.neowin.net/news/borderlands-2-designer-consoles-dictate-the-pc/

 

 

Hopefully it's a beast

 

Edited by Mister Pink
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Jason

The storage issue isn't my main concern, it's that there's going to be supposed gameplay advantages and innovations from these consoles having SSD's by utilising them in new ways. But that can't happen if they have to run on external storage and PC HDD's too, because then a lot of people are going to be f*cked on PC and it will bring storage issues into play on the consoles if these games are all dependent on the SSD.

 

We're going to be entering the generation of subscriptions so I think people will be downloading and trying games a lot more than normal too, so people will always be downloading and deleting things.

 

It's obviously going to be an improvement over current consoles and good for PC gaming too but my guess is that these SSD's will be used for better loading times more than anything as it won't be practical to design games around them just yet.

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Static
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, GTA3Rockstar said:

According to this - https://www.gizchina.com/2020/01/14/microsoft-xbox-series-x-will-use-groupe-controlled-pcie-4-0-ssd/ It's PCIe at 7GB/s.

 

Plus, you can mock it all you want with that Linus pic but it's gonna be a big improvement for PC, too. Developers will be more efficient coding with SSD in mind instead of the old sh*t. lol

 

I wasn't mocking anyone with anything,sorry it came off that way. it's a direct quote from linus. 

 

Edited by Static

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GTA3Rockstar
2 hours ago, Static said:

 

I wasn't mocking anyone with anything,sorry it came off that way. it's a direct quote from linus. 

 

 

No biggie. I've seen it posted on reddit, thought someone just slapped that on a picture of him since he's a pretty big PC guy.

 

Either way, it should work out great for everyone.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jason said:

The storage issue isn't my main concern, it's that there's going to be supposed gameplay advantages and innovations from these consoles having SSD's by utilising them in new ways. But that can't happen if they have to run on external storage and PC HDD's too, because then a lot of people are going to be f*cked on PC and it will bring storage issues into play on the consoles if these games are all dependent on the SSD.

 

We're going to be entering the generation of subscriptions so I think people will be downloading and trying games a lot more than normal too, so people will always be downloading and deleting things.

 

It's obviously going to be an improvement over current consoles and good for PC gaming too but my guess is that these SSD's will be used for better loading times more than anything as it won't be practical to design games around them just yet.

 

 

It could or they can program it pretty easily to determine what storage device someone uses. Idk

 

I would be good with just little to zero loading lol

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Jason

If game mechanics or systems are tied directly to the HDD, adapting those features or changing them based on what drive the game is running off would be pretty complicated to say the least, I imagine. I think we'll just get quicker load times (for now at least) which absolutely will create better experiences through quicker loading but yea, the ideas being floated about how they can do all this cool new sh*t with SSD's, I doubt it but we'll see.

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Guest

The £500 price point for the Xbox Series X is starting to hit main stream news outlets but we won't know for sure until MS announce, confirm price/spec this month.  Fingers crossed.  Some are saying it may be a little cheaper than £500 depending on what Sony do with the PS5.

 

Personally I'm not expecting a lot of internal storage.  500gb SSD if we are lucky. 

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Mister Pink
Posted (edited)

Yeah, the price is going to be a huge factor. We may not get the price until E3 or just before it. Series X, might be €600 and we still have "Lockhart" to be officially announced. Lockhart, if still real is made to undercut the price of the Playstation. 

 

Phill Spencer said confidently about this gen: "we wont be out of position on price or power." 

 

But now there are rumours of a second PS5 console. I don't think they are true though. But I'll bet my left nut Lockhart is real. 

 

 

Edited by Mister Pink

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Jason

$400 was the sweet spot last gen, I don't think that's changed today. $600/£500 would be absolutely bonkers for a console I reckon.

 

I think there's a good chance that both MS and Sony are waiting for the other to make the first move regarding pricing, if the first console is $600 I think the second one will be, but if the first console is $400 then it might get interesting.

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Mister Pink

Yep and I think that's why Sony are quiet for now. I think they want Xbox to release their price first and adjust accordingly to cut them - because if reports are true, PS5 wont be as powerful.  But with two Xbox consoles, any attempt to undercut Xbox can be resolved by Lockhart undercutting that. 

 

If that's the plan, it's genius from Xbox and finally a very aggressive move. Xbox have been so passive this last gen but they seem to be taking the reigns this time. 

 

I don't think €600/£525/$670 is too far fetched. Those that don't want to shell out that much or can avail of the budget consoles (Lockhart)

 

Don't forget that Microsoft also created that Xbox All Access: 

 

Quote

Xbox All Access Xbox One and over 100 high-quality games from $19.99/month for 24 months.^† With no upfront cost and everything you need to play, Xbox All Access is the best value in gaming. Available at Amazon.com now. Coming to more retailers in 2020.

It's not worldwide yet, but I expect it to be more available. 

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Jason

If their response to a potential price point of £500+ for X is "We have a product for people who can't afford our next gen console, it's called Xbox Lockhart" then I think Microsoft have gotten a little over confident with their strategy tbh.

 

I see Lockhart as being a hard sell IMO, their message so far for next-gen Xbox is POOWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR so if their message suddenly shifts to "oh power isn't actually that important" cause they have a product that is less powerful for people who baulk at the X's price point... mixed messages all over the place.

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GTA3Rockstar
6 hours ago, Jason said:

$400 was the sweet spot last gen, I don't think that's changed today. $600/£500 would be absolutely bonkers for a console I reckon.

 

I think there's a good chance that both MS and Sony are waiting for the other to make the first move regarding pricing, if the first console is $600 I think the second one will be, but if the first console is $400 then it might get interesting.

 

$500 is probably the limit and most likely the price it'll be.

 

 

 

Let's not forget that the 3DO launched back in 94 at $700 before a drop to $400 within a year lol

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Jason

Yea I think $500 tops as well and they'll be both doing w/e they can to get that down incase one of them is able to hit $400.

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trip

Aren't there going to be a billion different hardware skus?  I suspect day one we will be able to get an Xbox from between $400 -$600 bucks depending on what you want.  1tb internal storage with an optical drive might cost $500+. 500 gb internal discless unit might be in the $400+ range.

 

I bet ya...I bet ya... the cheapest one is a discless bundle deal that includes a year of gamepass and costs less then Playstation.  Betya.

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Jason
7 minutes ago, trip said:

I bet ya...I bet ya... the cheapest one is a discless bundle deal that includes a year of gamepass and costs less then Playstation.  Betya.

My original guess for Lockhart was that it was a discless console that would be cheaper but have the same power, but current rumour seems to say it's just a straight up less powerful console which I think is a mistake.

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GTA3Rockstar

AMD Analyst day is tomorrow, they're gonna talk about the RDNA2 along with their new GPUs and MAYBE something about the Series X.

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Mister Pink
Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2020 at 7:35 PM, Jason said:

If their response to a potential price point of £500+ for X is "We have a product for people who can't afford our next gen console, it's called Xbox Lockhart" then I think Microsoft have gotten a little over confident with their strategy tbh.

Joking or not, it's hardly analogous to premium/standard editions of anything. Your mentality regarding this is very pessimistic and cynical. Nobody thinks like that when there's a premium/standard version of anything else. Think of an airline. "We have this class for those who can't afford first class, it's called Economy." For the majority, economy is the base type of flight. But, if you have the money and want to upgrade, there is also Business and First Class. And when you are coming at selling consoles, it might be wise to market your flagship console first, especially when power is a selling point and you are trying to get ahead of the competition.

 

On 3/3/2020 at 7:35 PM, Jason said:

I see Lockhart as being a hard sell IMO, their message so far for next-gen Xbox is POOWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR so if their message suddenly shifts to "oh power isn't actually that important" cause they have a product that is less powerful for people who baulk at the X's price point... mixed messages all over the place.

 

Nothing is shifting, like you are saying it. For those people out there that will just want the cheaper console, they might just buy Lockhart but you can gauranteed it's an upgrade from the One X and absolutely an upgrade from a 7 year old base Xbox One. For those that want the most power, buy a Series X.  If one person values power, the there is an option to buy power. It's about options.  It's POWER/Affordability vs MOAAR POWERRRRR! :D 

 

It's hardly "mixed messages all over the place". It's very simple actually: One would ask: Do I want a Next-Gen console with more power than a One X (this could be someone with PS4 base model or Xbox One base model). 

 

Yes? OK. 

 

Do I value more power, so much so, I'll pay a premium? 

 

If Ans is Yes: Buy a Series X 

If Ans is No: Buy a Lockhart. 

 

:D 

 

18 hours ago, trip said:

I bet ya...I bet ya... the cheapest one is a discless bundle deal that includes a year of gamepass and costs less then Playstation.  Betya.

This was my understanding. It was to compete directly with PS5, especially on price and Series X was it's own more powerful thing. 

Edited by Mister Pink

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Jason
Posted (edited)

It definitely would be mixed messages from my point of view, which is less about affordability and options but more about what exactly is next-gen meant to be about. New console generations have always came with a power leap and a standardised power level. When devs show off their next-gen games, what we see is what everyone who owns that console will experience - bullshotting aside obviously.

 

We're being told that next-gen is about 8k/4k 120fps raytraced gameplay by Microsoft, that's the new standard, or at least the goal. If Lockhart is indeed less powerful, that's not the actual standard or goal for next-gen. We hear about new technology that can be utilised in these next-gen consoles, if Lockhart is indeed real and less powerful, it is than feasible to assume that not all of this technology may be usable on this console. That's speculation of course, but it would be no different than something like PC where less powerful machines have to tone down or disable things like nVidia PhysX, ray tracing, hairworks etc and other things like that to maintain stable performance.

 

If Lockhart is real and the rumours about it are correct then MS have two different ideas on what next-gen means, but they've only thus far (very strongly) talked about one idea.

 

If Microsoft turn up at E3 this year (assuming that isn't canned lol) and announce the Series X with all the next-gen bells and whistles they're promoting at $500-$600 and go to everyone who baulks at that price (and everyone will going by history especially if it's north of 500) and say "oh we also have a product for you if that's too expensive, the less powerful Lockhart!" then I don't think that's going to land as well as they think. It's a very PC approach to a very console market, a market that isn't anywhere near ready for a next-gen launch like that in my opinion.

 

In my opinion, especially after last-gen's launch, Microsoft would be much better suited at developing one idea for next-gen and doing it really well than doing two ideas and not executing either idea particularly well.

Edited by Jason
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Nappy
On 3/5/2020 at 7:06 PM, Jason said:

We're being told that next-gen is about 8k/4k 120fps raytraced gameplay by Microsoft,

How about Online gaming? Will it be able to keep it 120fps then?

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Jason

Online gaming likely is the reason for Microsoft wanting to support 120fps.

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Mister Pink

Possible delays for the next gen. 

 

 

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Jason

Yea I've wondered it too. Wondering how it could possibly impact game releases as well, if teams can't get in the studios to finish games, or if discs are unable to be produced... Interesting times ahead. I wonder if games out in the next few months will forgo a physical release and go full digital?

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Mister Pink
6 hours ago, Jason said:

Yea I've wondered it too. Wondering how it could possibly impact game releases as well, if teams can't get in the studios to finish games, or if discs are unable to be produced... Interesting times ahead. I wonder if games out in the next few months will forgo a physical release and go full digital?

Yeah, good points. You know the way next gen exclusives are supposed are supposed to be cross-gen. If the console release gets delayed, will they still release the games? Probably not. 

 

I'm a student right now until at least another year, so getting the money together for a new console and a TV will be a massive stretch. Not impossible but an absolute luxury that should be way down my list. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. If they get delayed 6 months, might not be as bad. 

 

I wonder, if there and advantage to Sony/Xbox for this? If production is delayed, does that buy them time for final adjustments?  I imagine there's nothing too major you could change at this stage except for the marketing phase, but would be interesting to know. 

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Jason

Yea there could be silver linings to the situation for sure. Even if they can't spend a few more months polishing the hardware, they could possibly use that time for the console software and what not. Games could get more time if the teams aren't severely impacted by the virus etc.

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Jason

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-tech/

 

ETOq7-ZXsAAdmBS?format=jpg&name=large

 

So my worry that the new SSD's won't make as big of an impact as I feared due to games having to support external HDD's is unfounded on the consoles at least, which is nice, but has it's cons. 1TB drive as standard with a proprietary 1TB expansion card if you want more. Do wonder how much that will cost cause I aint expecting it to be cheap. Still the thought of how multi platform devs will take advantage of the SSD as many PC users play from HDD's but who knows, maybe in the near future we'll see games require SSD's on PC... I doubt it but ya'know.

 

Big question that's left now is the price. Not so confident it'll be anywhere around $400 lol. 

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GTA3Rockstar
Posted (edited)

Best

1 hour ago, Jason said:

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-tech/

 

ETOq7-ZXsAAdmBS?format=jpg&name=large

 

So my worry that the new SSD's won't make as big of an impact as I feared due to games having to support external HDD's is unfounded on the consoles at least, which is nice, but has it's cons. 1TB drive as standard with a proprietary 1TB expansion card if you want more. Do wonder how much that will cost cause I aint expecting it to be cheap. Still the thought of how multi platform devs will take advantage of the SSD as many PC users play from HDD's but who knows, maybe in the near future we'll see games require SSD's on PC... I doubt it but ya'know.

 

Big question that's left now is the price. Not so confident it'll be anywhere around $400 lol. 

 

 

Beast.

 

With just a 2 week port of Gears 5, it already has similar performance of a 2080. Give someone the full development and they'll be pushing it beyond the current best.

 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

 

 

You shouldn't worry about the SSD, it's gonna be a big deal with their Velocity Architecture.

 

"Xbox Series X Storage Expansion Card –

 

Builtin partnership with Seagate, this 1 TB custom storage solution expands storage capacity of Xbox Series X with the full speed and performance of the Xbox Velocity Architecture Previous generation Xbox titles can still be played directly from external USB 3.2 hard drives. However, to receive all the benefits of the Xbox Velocity Architecture and optimal performance, Xbox Series X, optimized games should be played from the internal SSD or Xbox Series X Storage Expansion Card. "

 

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-glossary/

 

 

 

 

Yeah, this was never a $400 console lol $500 at the least but no more than $600.

Edited by GTA3Rockstar
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Hideo Kojima

Looks like they still haven't figured out dpads.

 

 

a Hideo Kojima post.

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Mister Pink
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hideo Kojima said:

Looks like they still haven't figured out dpads.

Care to elaborate?

 

It's the same design as the Elite controller D-Pad. I like it but I don't use D-pads except for menu options. I don't play Street Figher or anything like that so I'm not looking for anything more functional that what we've had so far. 

 

Hands on preview with Series X by Digital Foundry.  Xbox really confident with this product, letting us see the inside and letting the Digital Foundry lads disassemble/reassemble it. 

 

 

And this...(Loads State of Decay 2 in about 10 seconds!)

 

 

 

Edited by Mister Pink

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