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Mr. Ando

The Gang's Code

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Mr. Ando

Throughout the game you hear the characters talking about Dutch's code, of how their different than other gangs and of course how Dutch rambles about how they are trying to reform society.

 

We learned later at the game this is bullsh*t, Dutch only cared about himself, but what do you think was the gang code? they were some kind of Robin Hood thieves? robbing the rich to give the poor I would like to think, but then you hear Hosea talking about robbing folks in saloons,. Strauss whole deal involved loaning money to people in need too.

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Ironside

I feel that Dutch has some quasi-socialistic dream where he of course is the benevolent despot. I will not try to mix my own political opinions in this text but what I can say is that every system is corrupt to a certain degree. And if said system is led by a sociopathic philosopher that dream of being an enlightened despot, well that is not going to end well.

 

So even if the “code” was some proto-socialism with Dutch as the leader, the code was corrupted just as any rule is when it is controlled by only one or at least very few people. 

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Mr. Ando
1 hour ago, Ironside said:

I feel that Dutch has some quasi-socialistic dream where he of course is the benevolent despot. I will not try to mix my own political opinions in this text but what I can say is that every system is corrupt to a certain degree. And if said system is led by a sociopathic philosopher that dream of being an enlightened despot, well that is not going to end well.

 

So even if the “code” was some proto-socialism with Dutch as the leader, the code was corrupted just as any rule is when it is controlled by only one or at least very few people. 

Maybe it's something more akin to anarchism. Dutch seems to detest government and wants to live free in the open country. He also says to Milton in the bank robbery in America you can always cut a deal, I feel that's more in line with philosophy of Evelyn Miller Dutch seems to love.

 

I just wonder what he said to the gang, rob to rich and live the poor folk alone or something like that. An interesting item is the newspaper scrap Arthur keeps about their first robbery, apparently they donated money to an orphanage or something like that.

 

 

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UpTheDowngrade

Early in the game, Dutch tells Arthur they're trying to reform society to be kinder and gentler -- How? By robbing and killing people?

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Mysterious hero

It's mentioned several times in the first and second game that the gang used to be more Robin Hood-esque, robbing from the rich and giving to the poor and wanting to change the system of power Dutch thought was corrupt and rotten. However, they eventually stopped doing that and instead focused on themselves for their own survival. 

According to Hosea, they also used to have a "no killing" rule as well, most likely to convince themselves that they're not "criminals", they're "outlaws". However, Dutch decided to break that rule, because, in his mind, "Change can only succeed if it was brutal and relentless".

Edited by Mysterious hero
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Caffeination
13 hours ago, Mr. Ando said:

but what do you think was the gang code?

As the achievement trophies imply; rob the rich, give to the poor. But they’ve always been a contradictory bunch since they tell stories of robbing common folk, or at least attempting to before having a change of heart like Tilly did with a poor old mother of a dead rebel, even a high-honor Arthur nonchalantly expresses he’d rob a her out of the money she needed for food.

 

Like, Dutch’s gang say they have a code and aren’t like the other gangs, but Kieran has a point about not seeing much difference between them and the O’Driscolls. 

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Mr. Ando
7 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

It's mentioned several times in the first and second game that the gang used to be more Robin Hood-esque, robbing from the rich and giving to the poor and wanting to change the system of power Dutch thought was corrupt and rotten. However, they eventually stopped doing that and instead focused on themselves for their own survival. 

According to Hosea, they also used to have a "no killing" rule as well, most likely to convince themselves that they're not "criminals", they're "outlaws". However, Dutch decided to break that rule, because, in his mind, "Change can only succeed if it was brutal and relentless".

Do you think Arthur's character would kill the surviving guys in the train robbery or Jimmy Brooks? according to their "code" he won't kill people in cold blood, but they could be witnesses that rat out the gang, isn't better to cut all the loose ends?

Edited by Mr. Ando
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Mysterious hero
6 hours ago, Mr. Ando said:

Do you think Arthur's character would kill the surviving guys in the train robbery or Jimmy Brooks? according to their "code" he won't kill people in cold blood, but they could be witnesses that rat out the gang, isn't better to cut all the loose ends?

I suppose that that's the ambiguity of the situation. Will Arthur be pragmatic or will he follow his code? It's up to the player to decide.

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Jimbatron
20 hours ago, Ironside said:

I feel that Dutch has some quasi-socialistic dream where he of course is the benevolent despot. I will not try to mix my own political opinions in this text but what I can say is that every system is corrupt to a certain degree. And if said system is led by a sociopathic philosopher that dream of being an enlightened despot, well that is not going to end well.

 

So even if the “code” was some proto-socialism with Dutch as the leader, the code was corrupted just as any rule is when it is controlled by only one or at least very few people. 

Pretty good analysis of it.

 

The key point is Dutch uses his charisma and a stated vision to keep loyalty. But the truth is that his leadership comes first and is more important to him than the vision, whatever that might be.

 

That failure of leadership happens much in modern business settings. It’s not always an apparent problem until things start to go wrong then it is obvious when a leader starts to compromise values they supposedly held sacred as they deem necessary to stay in control.

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UpTheDowngrade
17 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

It's mentioned several times in the first and second game that the gang used to be more Robin Hood-esque, robbing from the rich and giving to the poor and wanting to change the system of power Dutch thought was corrupt and rotten. However, they eventually stopped doing that and instead focused on themselves for their own survival. 

According to Hosea, they also used to have a "no killing" rule as well, most likely to convince themselves that they're not "criminals", they're "outlaws". However, Dutch decided to break that rule, because, in his mind, "Change can only succeed if it was brutal and relentless".

I didn't play RDR1, so this explains Hosea's "We've turned into a bunch of killers, I mean it".

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Rammer2k

I think Hosea was Dutch's concsious, and when he got gunned down by Milton, it made Dutch completley snap.  Add Micah's getting in his ear, and whatever code there was is gone.

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Calrid123

Dutch is a classic psychopath type character. He uses any ploy or emotional goading to get people to play in his world. Nasty character, but we would assume so are most outlaws somewhat psychopaths, I wanted to shoot him in the head about 2 minutes into the story I have to say though. Just didn't trust anything he said or anything he did because it was always for his own selfish reasons.

 

I think Dutch's code amounts to do I say don't do what I do. Emotional plea bargaining is the best you would get out of Dutch, he's as said a classic psychopath character, he wants what he wants, you are just human passengers in his story.

 

Brilliant story of course and brilliant character, but definitely built in the mode of the self serving guy who cares only about himself. despite his so called better than most code, he was nothing more than a self serving hypocrite from the start. And I wont spoiler anything but you do see that most of all later.

 

As the OP says we see through his lies pretty much straight away.

 

There is no gang code without a forthright leader, but if you had to say any code it was get rich while we can, because we're on a sleigh ride to hell with Dutch. There's no code to being an outlaw in reality, it's like being a pirate, you get the most out of life you can while you can and then you die young.

 

Outlaws generally were the pirates of the West, they made their business about quick fixes and a good life while it lasted. Most outlaws didn't last to be 30, best you could hope for was to be shot down in a blaze of glory. Someone should write a song about that. ;)

 

Films romanticise outlaws in general (Pirates of the Caribbean is a case in point), but your life was bloody and short but probably a lot of fun while it lasted. Simple as that.

 

It's hella fun to play it though. :)

Edited by Calrid123
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Cutter De Blanc

Dutch's code is as phony as the speech he gives at the beginning of the game. All for manipulation.

 

Don't get me wrong though hes such a charismatic leader that I'll gladly follow him on his road to hell, but its fairly obvious thats where its going

Edited by Cutter De Blanc
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GinsengElixir
On 12/2/2019 at 2:17 PM, Mr. Ando said:

Do you think Arthur's character would kill the surviving guys in the train robbery or Jimmy Brooks? according to their "code" he won't kill people in cold blood, but they could be witnesses that rat out the gang, isn't better to cut all the loose ends?

I say no. The way I think of it is that by the time the game starts Arthur has gotten softer. Leaving the train guards alive would be a massive mistake, but then again everything the gang were doing by that point was just one mistake after the other. 

 

But Arthur does not strike me as a guy who would gun people down in cold blood. Nothing he does in game makes me think he would do it. Nothing about the gang make me think they are as savage as the O'Driscolls are.

 

Infact Javier tells the story of how they were going to rob a train but then stopped once they realised there were women and children on it. They found out later the O'Driscolls robbed the same train but killed everyone on board. It isn't clear whether this was a story Dutch made up or if it actually happened. 

 

I believe the Van der Linde gang formed with some sort of altruistic notion, but at some point it all went south. I think Dutch was always a selfish, lying bastard, and that on some level the gang members enjoy the chaos and killing. 

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Calrid123

I think Ginseng is right Arthur is an outlaw but he does have a sense of honour (there is honour among thieves) . Unlike Dutch whose honour is negotiable to the highest bidder, and is clearly your typical psychopath with no real moral conscience; he of course hides behind a thin veneer of respectability he calls the code which he makes out is better than the usual code - which he breaks all the time but seems to expect others to blindly follow. Typical sociopath though Dutch. A Character it's hard to like.

 

Psychopaths are often superficially charming, dig a little deeper though and all you find is selfishness and self interest, such is Dutch.

Edited by Calrid123
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GinsengElixir

As Arthur you are only really forced to kill gangs and lawmen. Anything else is up to the player.

 

When I watch players savagely kill anyone outside of those two categories, barring self defense, it just feels intuitively wrong to me. Not because I'm a nice guy, I love killing in games as much as the next guy, but based on how Arthur generally acts and how the gang is set up.

 

They aren't really cold blooded killers, more like gypsies who rob, live in wilderness and leave trash everywhere. So gypsies basically. 

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Ironside
On 12/15/2019 at 10:33 AM, GinsengElixir said:

As Arthur you are only really forced to kill gangs and lawmen. Anything else is up to the player.

 

When I watch players savagely kill anyone outside of those two categories, barring self defense, it just feels intuitively wrong to me. Not because I'm a nice guy, I love killing in games as much as the next guy, but based on how Arthur generally acts and how the gang is set up.

 

They aren't really cold blooded killers, more like gypsies who rob, live in wilderness and leave trash everywhere. So gypsies basically. 

I believe you are correct, Arthur even complains like 100 times during the story about killing too much and too freely. He even tells Sadie that they are outlaws, not killers and that they do not steal from people that just tries to make a living. I even think Dutch is designed as a sociopath more than a psychopath, I think Dutch truly believes himself to be the good guy and that it takes a few cracked eggs to make an omelette. I am quite certain Lenin for instance did not try to create the monster that became the Soviet Union and in the same way Dutch did not think he on his way to his utopia would create a gang of wild murderers. We as players or just guys knowing history can of course see why one like Lenin could not use the same tools as the Czar to create a utopia, when one uses the same tools as tyrants to create something on the rubble of the former tyrants castle you will end up building just another tyranny. This can be seen over and over again through history, The Russian revolution, Kuomintang first and then Mao Zedongs way of replacing the Chinese emperor with just another type of tyrant, The French Revolution that partly resulted in the reign of terror and after that the rise of Napoleon Bonaparte. There are of course endless more examples and Dutch is in many ways just like those people trying to dethrone the tyrants but on a smaller scale. He believes in his own code but also as it is his code he can choose whenever the code needs to change to better fit his own narrative, just like how Marxist Leninism became Stalinism etc. 

 

https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.britannica.com/amp/story/whats-the-difference-between-a-psychopath-and-a-sociopath-and-how-do-both-differ-from-narcissists

 

Psychopaths is born and sociopaths are made. That is one major difference but there are others. 

Edited by Ironside

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Calrid123

A sociopath and a psychopath are the same thing just FYI. Sociopath is a bit more modern and well used in psychology circles but they are the same thing.

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Ironside
42 minutes ago, Calrid123 said:

A sociopath and a psychopath are the same thing just FYI. Sociopath is a bit more modern and well used in psychology circles but they are the same thing.

Well according to psychiatrists at the university in my hometown and literature on the subject, they have been faulty used interchangeably. But they are actually not the same thing, there are a few behavioral issues that differs. I cannot explain it further since I am not working in  psychology at all but I do read and talk with friends that are both physicians, psychologist and psychiatrists. 
 

https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.britannica.com/amp/story/whats-the-difference-between-a-psychopath-and-a-sociopath-and-how-do-both-differ-from-narcissists

 

Psychopaths are born that way and sociopaths are made by the circumstances surrounding that person. That is one difference but their are others. Sociopaths tend to behave more erratic when their plans and what they want do not seem to be reachable for instance while a psychopaths do not act as much in the same erratic manner. 
 

I have now talked with some friends in the field and they told me that psychopaths lacks empathy but can simulate it. Sociopaths can and often makes emotional bonds with other people but cannot handle emotions like jealousy etc and once again acts in a more erratic and less calculated way, as opposed to how a psychopath would act in a similar situation. 

Edited by Ironside

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Calrid123

All psychopaths are sociopaths, not all sociopaths are psychopathic. It's really just code for the same thing though as the behaviour amounts to the same thing. Born or made, you're still both.

 

I take the point about x and y being different but it's really just semantics they have a personality disorder in a spectrum, born or made.

 

Narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder, I can pretty much assume you are going to be labelled as a psychopath whether you were born that way or not because the bahaviour leads to the diagnosis, Narcissists can't help being nasty and manipulative. Technicalities aside, I would be surprised if there were people who exhibited all the characteristics of both who would not be labelled psychopathic.

 

Psychology is an art not a science it should be an MA not and MD qualification, though unlike being a medical Doctor where the body is fairly simple the mind especially in terms of behaviour by comparrisson is much much more complex. Labels and categories are ill fitting at best and often synonymous anyway.

 

I'll defer to an expert any time though if psychologists and psychiatrists say they are not the same thing far be it for me to question the received wisdom. :)

 

I don't think I've had this interesting a conversation in a long time. :D

 

 

 

Edited by Calrid123
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PkUnzipper
Posted (edited)
On 12/2/2019 at 12:04 AM, UpTheDowngrade said:

Early in the game, Dutch tells Arthur they're trying to reform society to be kinder and gentler -- How? By robbing and killing people?

not just people but POOR and economically unprivileged people aka the little man. The poor, hardworking, and desperate frontier townsfolk. Whom the gang swindled, brutalized and even killed (from their vicious loan sharking & debt collecting racket). People who were the very persons that were supposed to be exempt from Dutch's anarchist socialist ideology. From Arthur's perspective, Dutch basically betrayed his own belief system by continuously:

 

  • stealing the life savings and life from innocent towns folk in failed big scores like in Blackwater
  • directly robbing poor towns folk by robbing the bank in Rhodes and St. Dennis. During that time, the US govt did not have the policy it does today which insures bank deposits against robberies or destruction by nature. So any towns ppl who used the bank to safeguard their money, would've permanently lost their life savings to theft from heists like that. Which is why turn of last century, ppl would hide their cash/valuables under their mattress, in their fire places etc. etc. And if they failed to retrieve said valuables at their homesteads, it helped scavengers like Arthur make some decent coin back then. Lol.
  • terrorizing and stealing from harmless citizens in his senseless, botched attempt to rob the Post Office in St Dennis (which netted all 3 gang members a whopping $15 or so)
  • having no problem with Arthur and other gang members robbing/beating up/hurting or killing innocent ppl on trains and stage coaches (defending these anti-code actions by saying "you do what you gotta do")
  • selfishly exploiting socioeconomically underprivileged people like the Wapiti Indians. Manipulating young Eagle Feather to use his tribe as a distraction to cover the gang's escape from their hideout in purgatory. The whole botched outcome of that mission most likely did NOT end well for the Indians. Odds were Dutch's shortsighted and selfish stupidity destroyed any chance the Indians had at a peaceful treaty with the US govt. Because their hostile actions gave the US Army/govt the very excuse they needed to drive the Indians off their land at the reservation. Or worst yet, sanction the US govt retribution to commit genocide against the entire tribe. All thanks to Dutch. Who once again, completely underestimated the risks and potential fallout of failure of this terrorist act against the US govt.  
  • showing he lacked honor among thieves by betraying members of his own gang. Abandoning long time members like John (who he claimed was like a son to him) and Abigail/Jack to die. 

List is too long from Dutch's lack of leadership oversight or capability to weigh the risks v. long term benefits of his reckless actions. Or even try to re-conciliate his code with the inconsistent logic of his life choices and detrimental outcome to innocent ppl in society. When the gang lost Hosea, they permanently lost their voice of reason and any genuine reason for playing white hat Robin Hood outlaws. With Dutch increasingly under Micah's sociopathic influence, the gang lost its moral compass. And devolved to being no different from other gangs like the O'Driscolls, Murfee Brood, and other lawless dredges in society. The gang's code basically died with Hosea's death.

 

IMO R* should've given us an option to break up the gang after Hosea's death.  When Arthur returned from Guam, an option to approach Dutch with the request to peacefully break up the gang. Rationale is he Arthur wanted to quit while he was ahead. Take the weaker/non combat and dependent gang members like Tilly, Karen, Mary, Pearson, Abigail and Jack. Any of the other fighting gang members who wanted to leave like John and Saide. Which would set a confrontation between Micah v Arthur where Arthur ends up getting killed in the fight. John ends up leading these gang member who opted to split with Dutch/Micah.

 

That would've gave Dutch the option to keep the fighting gang members loyal to him (basically Grimshaw and all the men who opted to side with him). So he could really go after his one big and last score. With zero obligation to share whatever proceedings he got from his final score. 

 

A split like that would've setup RDR 1 sequel really well for John as the main protagonist. And fit in well with John's revenge game and actions in the main story line events of RDR1

On 12/17/2019 at 5:56 AM, Calrid123 said:

All psychopaths are sociopaths, not all sociopaths are psychopathic. It's really just code for the same thing though as the behaviour amounts to the same thing. Born or made, you're still both.

^^

 

Very true. 

 

IMO:

 

sociopaths = #MeToo & 4Chan (autistic/socially challenged moron type)

 

psychopaths = AntiFA & 4Chan (genuinely insane type)

 

😂

Edited by PkUnzipper
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Copcaller
 

not just people but POOR and economically unprivileged people aka the little man. The poor, hardworking, and desperate frontier townsfolk. Whom the gang swindled, brutalized and even killed (from their vicious loan sharking & debt collecting racket). People who were the very persons that were supposed to be exempt from Dutch's anarchist socialist ideology. From Arthur's perspective, Dutch basically betrayed his own belief system by continuously:

 

  • stealing the life savings and life from innocent towns folk in failed big scores like in Blackwater
  • directly robbing poor towns folk by robbing the bank in Rhodes and St. Dennis. During that time, the US govt did not have the policy it does today which insures bank deposits against robberies or destruction by nature. So any towns ppl who used the bank to safeguard their money, would've permanently lost their life savings to theft from heists like that. Which is why turn of last century, ppl would hide their cash/valuables under their mattress, in their fire places etc. etc. And if they failed to retrieve said valuables at their homesteads, it helped scavengers like Arthur make some decent coin back then. Lol.
  • terrorizing and stealing from harmless citizens in his senseless, botched attempt to rob the Post Office in St Dennis (which netted all 3 gang members a whopping $15 or so)
  • having no problem with Arthur and other gang members robbing/beating up/hurting or killing innocent ppl on trains and stage coaches (defending these anti-code actions by saying "you do what you gotta do")
  • selfishly exploiting socioeconomically underprivileged people like the Wapiti Indians. Manipulating young Eagle Feather to use his tribe as a distraction to cover the gang's escape from their hideout in purgatory. The whole botched outcome of that mission most likely did NOT end well for the Indians. Odds were Dutch's shortsighted and selfish stupidity destroyed any chance the Indians had at a peaceful treaty with the US govt. Because their hostile actions gave the US Army/govt the very excuse they needed to drive the Indians off their land at the reservation. Or worst yet, sanction the US govt retribution to commit genocide against the entire tribe. All thanks to Dutch. Who once again, completely underestimated the risks and potential fallout of failure of this terrorist act against the US govt.  
  • showing he lacked honor among thieves by betraying members of his own gang. Abandoning long time members like John (who he claimed was like a son to him) and Abigail/Jack to die. 

List is too long from Dutch's lack of leadership oversight or capability to weigh the risks v. long term benefits of his reckless actions. Or even try to re-conciliate his code with the inconsistent logic of his life choices and detrimental outcome to innocent ppl in society. When the gang lost Hosea, they permanently lost their voice of reason and any genuine reason for playing white hat Robin Hood outlaws. With Dutch increasingly under Micah's sociopathic influence, the gang lost its moral compass. And devolved to being no different from other gangs like the O'Driscolls, Murfee Brood, and other lawless dredges in society. The gang's code basically died with Hosea's death.

 

IMO R* should've given us an option to break up the gang after Hosea's death.  When Arthur returned from Guam, an option to approach Dutch with the request to peacefully break up the gang. Rationale is he Arthur wanted to quit while he was ahead. Take the weaker/non combat and dependent gang members like Tilly, Karen, Mary, Pearson, Abigail and Jack. Any of the other fighting gang members who wanted to leave like John and Saide. Which would set a confrontation between Micah v Arthur where Arthur ends up getting killed in the fight. John ends up leading these gang member who opted to split with Dutch/Micah.

 

That would've gave Dutch the option to keep the fighting gang members loyal to him (basically Grimshaw and all the men who opted to side with him). So he could really go after his one big and last score. With zero obligation to share whatever proceedings he got from his final score. 

 

A split like that would've setup RDR 1 sequel really well for John as the main protagonist. And fit in well with John's revenge game and actions in the main story line events of RDR1

^^

 

Very true. 

 

IMO:

 

sociopaths = #MeToo & 4Chan (autistic/socially challenged moron type)

 

psychopaths = AntiFA & 4Chan (genuinely insane type)

 

😂

Good analysis I agree Dutch is full of sh*t the second he shot that woman in the head during the blackwater heist was the end of any supposed code of honor like Kieran said the Dutch gang was no better than the o driscolls.

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The Wolf Man

I think that the whole "survival of the fittest" thing is the gang's philosophy. They want to live free, with no law or government.

The gang's code is loyalty, basically. To be loyal to each other and to Dutch and his teachings (vengeance is an idiot's game, violence should be cold and necessary, never out of personal enjoyment etc.).

Edited by The Wolf Man
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JB1982

The general code of the outlaw was that they lived outside of the law. But I guess that's not really a code but more a way of life, an ideology as such.

 

And it's difficult to tell what the gang code was because the gang is unravelling from the very start of the game because they are on the run after the Blackwater heist. We never see the gang at their peak to fully see what the code was supposed to be. There's talk of it though in the game. As others have pointed out there seems to have been a code of robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. Very Robin Hood-esque. And a no killing rule. That last part has definitely gone at the start of the game because of Dutch killing a girl in Blackwater but is evidenced at various points in the game when Dutch kills again and again and the likes of John and Arthur are visibly shocked by his actions. The game depicts it being more about survival at this point and Dutch is on a course to do that by any means necessary. But it certainly doesn't appear to have been the way it always was.

 

Or maybe it was always that way. Maybe Dutch never truly believed in a code but used his charisma to blind and seduce all those around him to follow. There's points in the game when it's suggested that Dutch has changed, that Micah influences him onto a darker path. But maybe Dutch was on that path all along and it takes the events of the game for characters like Arthur and John to see the real Dutch and that he was always this way but they just couldn't see it.

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The Wolf Man

I don't think there was a "no killing rule". They had no problem with killing or shooting people. However, they do seem to believe that violence should be used only if necessary and with no feelings attached. Dutch killed a civillain girl in Blackwater just for the sake of it, and that's why John and the others were so confused and pissed about the whole thing.

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JB1982

Hosea says something to Dutch at one point that they've turned into killers which to me sounds like they didn't kill. But I guess that's down to interpretation.

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