The Honor system isn’t great

[BoulderFaceplant]

I’ve actually found the Honor system to be more intrusive than the law. Honor is impossible to escape- which wouldn’t be a problem if it were implemented properly. Instead, it routinely makes the incorrect judgment, changes priority constantly, and picks sides on things that it really shouldn’t (usually to do with looting corpses).

 

Being such an ubiquitous mechanic, there are certainly have plenty of examples. Let me lay out a couple here:

 

One time I was out in the wilderness and I came across two folks on horseback. I antagonized one of them until he and his buddy started shooting at me. So I shot the guy I’d antagonized, and got a well-deserved “minus Honor.” Then I killed his buddy, and didn’t lose any honor at all! You would think that in a game that’s smart enough to have an NPC’s friend start fighting with him, that game’s honor system would be able to recognize their shared motivation. But nope. “Beep-boop,” the algorithm seems to say, “Man was attacking you for no reason. Shooting back okay.”

 

Looting is particularly broken. One time I came across a wagon party that had been massacred by the Skinner Brothers. The only survivor was obviously mortally wounded, so I shot him dead and gained Honor. This led me to believe that this was a unique situation- surely I can loot these victims’ corpses, right? Better their belongings go to a half-decent man rather than to aid the bloodthirsty Skinner Brothers that killed them, right? I mean, the game WAS smart enough to recognize a mercy-killing, so surely it wou- *DONG*, minus-Honor! “Beep-boop, looting bad,” drones the game’s algorithm. 

 

The Honor system covers far more than it’s capable of fairly judging. Nonetheless, it still kind of works in a basic sense. Speaking in the long term, you’ll still end up with roughly the honor ranking you’ve been aiming for. My main gripe is actually a matter of that positive *DING* and negative *DONG* that accompanies everything. For one, it reminds you that the game is misjudging on several actions. And even if the Honor system were more intelligent and balanced, I don’t want to be rewarded or chided by the HUD whenever I interact with someone. It’s annoying and cannot be turned off (that “Honor” setting in the Options menu doesn’t do anything). You can’t just play as you see fit and check in on your honor from time to time.

[silly_nate]

I don’t like that the bandana doesn’t hide your honor  or any other mask  

[pariah87]

5 hours ago, silly_nate said:

I don’t like that the bandana doesn’t hide your honor  or any other mask  

If I masturbate while wearing a bandana does God not still witness my sin?

[silly_nate]

1 hour ago, pariah87 said:

If I masturbate while wearing a bandana does God not still witness my sin?

If the people of Valentine NH see a masked man rob a bank, how do they know it was Arthur Morgan?

[Copcaller]

Yeah the honor drop for looting corpses is dumb and it's annoying I can accidentally bump into a guy while riding my horse they shoot first and I kill them in self defense but lose honor 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Copcaller

[BoulderFaceplant]

3 hours ago, Copcaller said:

Yeah the honor drop for looting corpses is dumb and it's annoying I can accidentally bump into a guy while riding my horse they shoot first and I kill them in self defense but lose honor 

One time I came across a man with a hogtied woman on horseback. The way he talked to her made it clear that he intended to kill and/or rape her. So I shot the guy dead and cut the woman free. Plus Honor. Before I got back on my horse, I looted the guy’s corpse. DONG! The woman runs away screaming like I just threatened to slit her throat. The NPC and the Honor system failed to recognize the situation. That one really killed my immersion. 

[NChabb]

Once I was in Tumbleweed in RDO and I started to get shot at. In self defense I tried to shoot back while I was fleeing away. One of my bullet hit a building wall. Lost honor and was pursued for "vandalism".

 

Or that one time a guy was driving a wagon in New Aust (single player). I climbed in it (not driving, just climbing on the wagon itself) for a peaceful quiet lift. The guy driving it got mad and started to shoot me. I defended myself, lost honor. Doesn't matter if I didn't have any ill intent, the game decided I was the bad guy and the algorithm went there.

 

The honor system suffers from the same issues as every GTA game before with its star system. Rockstar tries to make something "realistic" and "immersive" but we're not quite there yet by a long shot. It's an arbitrary system extremely selective. It's not self-aware, nor intelligent. It does basic compute like 1+1=2. Unless we reach an actual sentient AI that can study and analyse in real time the action of the player vs. other player(s)/NPC(s), we're bound to annoying imperfections.

 

Same thing with horses: suddenly the game decide the horse want to make his own decision because, once again, "immersion" and "living being"... Even if it mean he'll run straight into a tree by himself. Dumb thing.

 

 

[El Penguin Bobo]

7 hours ago, silly_nate said:

If the people of Valentine NH see a masked man rob a bank, how do they know it was Arthur Morgan?

Yeah, idek. I would think it would say "unknown suspect" and you wouldn't gain any bounty so I think wearing the mask is kinda useless. Like I said in another thread, idk if I'm using it wrong or what.

[Awful Waffle]

the Honor and Wanted systems in this game are trash and pretty much the only low points in an otherwise masterpiece of a game.

it's a love/hate relationship.

 

Red Dead 2 is one of the most beautifully crafted games ever made with simultaneously the most unrealistic, inconsistent, incoherent and illogical player-interaction mechanics I've ever seen. it constantly destroys any sense of immersion. it's beyond frustrating in how little sense it makes. player interactions with NPC's (outside of heavily scripted events) are basically broken. Arthur (almost literally) cannot do anything without being considered the bad guy in every single possible situation. you're punished for everything. you're punished for trying to have any fun or actually play the game like a wild west outlaw. it's ridiculous. cannot wait for PC modders to fix this mess.

 

like others have mentioned, even the basic mask/bandanna system is broken.

everyone in the world can magically recognize you no matter what. everyone in the world seems to know your first and last name and could perfectly describe your face from under a wide-brim hat 50 yards away. I hate it so much... 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Awful Waffle

[El Penguin Bobo]

1 hour ago, Awful Waffle said:

Arthur (almost literally) cannot do anything without being considered the bad guy in every single possible situation.

Part of the reason why I have an $1,000 dollar bounty in Lemoyne is that I defended myself after some guy hit me and harrassed me for no reason...I think it's safe to say that the wanted system in this game is even worse than GTA V's.

[Cutter De Blanc]

It just chuffs me when I lose honor for punching out some guy who was shooting at me. I didn't even kill him. What's the most moral course of action here? Stand there and die?

Edited November 22, 2019 by Cutter De Blanc

[El Penguin Bobo]

bruh, I swear to God, when I lasso'ed someone, tried to bring them to camp, I couldn't, so the game automatically made me get the guy and untie him and guess what?

 

DONG

 

So apparently, you can lose honor for cutting a person free...

Edited November 23, 2019 by El Penguin Bobo

[Jason]

The honour system in RDR2 isn't really like what it was in RDR1. In RDR1 it was more of a reputation system, which is why the bandanna worked like it did there. However in RDR2 the honour system is more so Arthur's actual morality.

 

Many of the examples I've read here are where the player has instigated something and ultimately received negative honour for their actions, this isn't weird or broken, this is exactly how it is meant to be as far as I'm aware. If you instigate conflict or otherwise do crime, you are committing acts that would be considered morally wrong. In regards to looting giving negative honour specifically, many people would consider looting the dead as morally wrong. It's a bit iffy as looting a real scumbag would perhaps be looked at differently than looting an innocent, but yea, many would consider looting a corpse as a poor thing to do.

 

It's by no means perfect and there definitely are times where I my self was surprised when I got a honour hit and personally I was also hoping for something a bit deeper than a Mass Effect style sliding bar, but for the most part the system works in a way that makes sense.

 

Bounties though, who the hell knows. One of the most needlessly convoluted mechanics I've seen in a while that one.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Jason

[Cutter De Blanc]

11 minutes ago, El Penguin Bobo said:

bruh, I swear to God, when I lasso'ed someone, tried to bring them to camp, I couldn't, so the game automatically made me get the guy and untie him and guess what?

 

DONG

 

So apparently, you can lose honor for cutting a person free...

No the game is telling you you were a horrible evil lowlife to ever even think of bringing a hogtied person back to camp

[Awful Waffle]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

Many of the examples I've read here are where the player has instigated something and ultimately received negative honour for their actions, this isn't weird or broken, this is exactly how it is meant to be as far as I'm aware. If you instigate conflict or otherwise do crime, you are committing acts that would be considered morally wrong. In regards to looting giving negative honour specifically, many people would consider looting the dead as morally wrong. It's a bit iffy as looting a real scumbag would perhaps be looked at differently than looting an innocent, but yea, many would consider looting a corpse as a poor thing to do.

none of this makes any sense.

morality is not a Law of Nature. it's not written into the stones underneath the dirt. it's a human judgement call.

 

whose morality are we talking about?

Arthur Morgan's morality? as an outlaw in the wild West in the 1890s?? or Rockstar's morality? as a corporation that exists in the 21st century? this is bullsh*t.

 

we are playing Red Dead Redemption.

Red.

Dead.

Redemption.

 

which one of those words implies that we are supposed to be delicate stewards of good and evil?

this is not careful ballroom dancing. this is the gritty scummy dirty dog days of the old West. you are an outlaw. you are a criminal. you are wanted in 2 states and running from the law since you were 17 years old. your morality is yours. your morality shouldn't be tied to a magical and arbitrary invisible god in the skies who watches over you and criticizes your every choice in a way that affects the world. why the f*ck would my clothes cost more to buy just because I sometimes choose to loot a corpse in the middle of nowhere?? why would shopkeepers in different parts of the world charge me more or less money for items based on how good of a person they think I am??

 

the Honor system is wholesale broken.

if you don't think it is, you're the problem 

[Jason]

2 hours ago, Awful Waffle said:

none of this makes any sense.

morality is not a Law of Nature. it's not written into the stones underneath the dirt. it's a human judgement call.

 

whose morality are we talking about?

Arthur Morgan's morality? as an outlaw in the wild West in the 1890s?? or Rockstar's morality? as a corporation that exists in the 21st century? this is bullsh*t.

 

we are playing Red Dead Redemption.

Red.

Dead.

Redemption.

 

which one of those words implies that we are supposed to be delicate stewards of good and evil?

this is not careful ballroom dancing. this is the gritty scummy dirty dog days of the old West. you are an outlaw. you are a criminal. you are wanted in 2 states and running from the law since you were 17 years old. your morality is yours. your morality shouldn't be tied to a magical and arbitrary invisible god in the skies who watches over you and criticizes your every choice in a way that affects the world. why the f*ck would my clothes cost more to buy just because I sometimes choose to loot a corpse in the middle of nowhere?? why would shopkeepers in different parts of the world charge me more or less money for items based on how good of a person they think I am??

 

the Honor system is wholesale broken.

if you don't think it is, you're the problem 

What on Earth are you on about? Morality is not a law of nature, no, neither is reputation, neither is any concept of honour in any video game. Where you're going with this I don't have a clue.

 

Like I said, it's Arthur's morality, whether he's doing good things or bad. This is pretty damn f*cking important to the games story as he tries to make amends for things towards the end of the game for things he has done. You can play him as someone who doesn't care, a true outlaw, or you can play him as someone who tries to in some small way fix what he's done. Yes, he's a criminal and a bad man, he even flat out says this in the story if I recall, but you as the player can attempt to redeem him in some way if you choose to do.

 

You know, REDEMPTION and all that.

 

If you don't understand this, then perhaps you should go play through the story again to get a better understanding of what Arthur's story is about.

[Cutter De Blanc]

"Dear journal, I shot at the tiny church bell today, I f*ckng hate myself now"

Edited November 23, 2019 by Cutter De Blanc

[Jason]

I should say that I don't think the system in general is particularly great, it has almost all the problems I had with Mass Effect's morality system in that it's all or nothing, you are encouraged to be all bad or all good and not inbetween. You don't really benefit from playing someone who picks and chooses how they react and play in any given situation, you typically have to always be good or always be bad. This is a problem with these global reputation/morality systems in games in general, rather than systems that work on individual relationships with people and groups.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Jason

[Cutter De Blanc]

I wish there was a reward for having minimum honor like in the first game. 

[Xerukal]

The biggest one, for me, is the situation where you can free a captive from one of those transport jail carts.

 

Minus honor for blowing the heads off of the law, plus honor for freeing the person in the back. Uh... what? If you had to murder two lawmen just doing their job out in the wilderness to GET TO the prisoner, how is freeing him in any way honorable? 

 

Theoretically you could just hogtie the dudes transporting the prisoner... but that's usually not what happens. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Xerukal

[Cutter De Blanc]

21 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

It just chuffs me when I lose honor for punching out some guy who was shooting at me. I didn't even kill him. What's the most moral course of action here? Stand there and die?

To expand on this, losing honor when engaging in fisticuffs is very inconsistent in general, as sometimes I will lose honor for knocking someone out, and sometimes I wont

[Jason]

3 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

To expand on this, losing honor when engaging in fisticuffs is very inconsistent in general, as sometimes I will lose honor for knocking someone out, and sometimes I wont

Mhm, I wonder if this is the system breaking, just being inconsistent or intended. It could be by design, Rockstar making it so not every little thing you do, good or bad, impacts your honour.

[Middle Class Roadman]

I just hate how some outfits require a certain amount of honour for them to be available. 

[Non Funkable Token]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:41 AM, pariah87 said:

If I masturbate while wearing a bandana does God not still witness my sin?

Depends on what you're watching........

[Jutland]

The system’s ok. Yes it makes crazy judgements from time to time but the honour increments are so damn tiny that they hardly impact your honour at all. If you get a minus one for robbing a corpse then all you need to do is say hello to a couple of strangers and it goes back up again.

 

If your overall honour is high it’s because it’s the sum total of thousands of little decisions that you have made through the game. And vice versa if your honour is low. In that sense it genuinely reflects how you play your Arthur Morgan. 

[paperbagdude]

Apart from the other examples, I hate how lawmen are divided into two categories.

 

Let's say you raid and wreck Valentine. First, 3-4 star blips (indicating lawmen) will be present, and you can kill these without losing or gaining honor.

 

Briefly afterwards (or simultaneously further away), perhaps up to 4 red hostile blips will appear, most likely indicating vigilant civilians wanting you dead for violating the laws of Valentine. However, it turns out these civilians are identified as lawmen and even wear a police badge.

 

I know this isn't directly a problem linked to the mechanics of the honor system, but rather the game design regarding NPCs and their role and identity, but it seems fairly illogical that a civilian that presumably is on duty as a deputy and chooses to aggress you (could have fled, surrendered) will lose you honor if killed.

 

Not the most clever of Rockstar logic.

[Awful Waffle]

3 hours ago, Jutland said:

If you get a minus one for robbing a corpse then all you need to do is say hello to a couple of strangers and it goes back up again.

but this is retarded.

 

this is exactly why it needs to be fixed.

there's nothing less realistic or more absurd than the situation you JUST described.

 

it's painfully stupid.

[Awful Waffle]

23 hours ago, Jason said:

You know, REDEMPTION and all that.

If you don't understand this, then perhaps you should go play through the story again to get a better understanding of what Arthur's story is about.

then why give the player the option at all?

 

if you want to control the narrative, control the damn narrative.

if you want the player to have a sense of freedom, let them have the goddamn freedom.

 

you're making my point for me.

Rockstar designed a convoluted mess of a Karma system which is woefully incoherent and inconsistent. it needs to be fixed.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Awful Waffle

[Jason]

Convoluted? I'd actually say it's the complete opposite and that is one of the reasons why the honour systems impact on the game is minor at best. As for incoherent, I would say that for the most part it works as expected. I do a bad thing, I get negative honour, I do a good thing, I get positive honour. Inconsistencies when it comes to this are rare and have virtually no impact on the game anyway, the system on a whole is incredibly forgiving and you go can from max negative honour to max positive quickly, especially at the end of the game. I can't say in my playthrough that I had any issue with it mechanically, my issue with the system was mainly the fact it has zero depth. It essentially changes store prices, bounty rewards and a few cutscenes at the end. It has as far as I remember no impact on how any main story missions actually play out.

 

At the end of the day, it's a game mechanic. It's based on real life morality but it has been gamified to work in the game. It is very easy to lose honour in the game, a quick killing spree in a town for example, but moments when you can do a "good" action are rarer, hence why things like greeting people, taking care of your horse and letting fish go reward positive honour. It also gives rewards for being good or for being bad, to encourage players to be one or the other - which is a problem in its self, as I said in an earlier post.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Jason

[Jutland]

19 hours ago, Jason said:

 It essentially changes store prices, bounty rewards and a few cutscenes at the end. It has as far as I remember no impact on how any main story missions actually play out.

That’s all it needs to do, really. If the honour system did more, like it actually affected how missions played out, then the game would be judging actions morally. The game would stop being a game and would start being a moral preacher. There’s more than enough people IRL judging everyone else morally already, we don’t need a game doing it too.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Jutland
Grammar