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LloydGTA3

Best and Worst Betrayal

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LloydGTA3

When I say "Best and Worst" I mean a betrayal in terms of the execution. Therefore, the "best" betrayal is one that was well-executed, surprising, and nicely written, whereas the "worst" is one that was predictable, poorly written, and just plain haphazard without any depth. So here's mine:

 

Best betrayal: Dimitri Rascalov in GTA 4. He starts off as a decent enough guy who was VERY good at hiding his ruthlessness. Honestly, this guy had easily the most well-written betrayal of the whole series.

 

Worst betrayal: Lance in GTA VC. He just changes sides without a lucid explanation and doesn't even seem to have any motivation for his decision other than "business", which was equivocal to say the least.

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Algonquin Assassin

Best: Dimitri. The way the story plays out it makes you think Faustin is the real problem. To be fair you could argue something was off when he asks Niko to meet him at a dark and dingy warehouse, but just as a side note Bulgarin was also nice surprise and whilst not technically a betrayal it was pretty jarring that he was in co hoots with Dimitri all along.

 

Worst: Ryder and Big Smoke. Ryder's inevitable betrayal stood out like a sore thumb IMO and with Big Smoke the tell tale signs are all there if you pay close attention. Him living away from Grove Street, not participating in any combat against Ballas (With the exception of the intro). Tenpenny and Pulaski paying him a visit at his house etc.

 

I just hate how San Andreas tries so hard to be a 90s hood drama like Menace II Society, Boyz N The Hood etc with the stereotypical "childhood friends betray the protagonist" angle. It's poor and doesn't evoke any kind of emotion of feeling betrayed to me.

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DOUGL4S1

Best: Dimitri, see above.

 

Worst: Devin Weston - What a surprise, the 'narcisistic assholistic rich character that promisses a lot of good stuff' is the bad guy. Totally didn't see it comming.

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Evil empire

Best: (Having never played GTA 4) Salvatore Leone who thinks Claude has a crush with Maria, GTA 3 doesn't leave many clues about the upcoming treason, the choice of a rigged car implies the Leones sufficiently respect Claude not to murder him for such a petty reason, it decreases the number of witnesses likely to denunce Salvatore since the only person he needs is 8-Balls who doesn't even has to know who's the target, the mission with Mike Forelli already made you familiar with this kind of murder technic which shows Salvatore is determined to wipe you out. The Red Light District gives Sal a good opportunity to accuse the Triads. What's more this treason gives a very good immersion-friendly explanation about the fact you need to start again from scratch in Staunton, the reason why Asuka is so eager to hire you and why Claude becomes so treacherous and takes so many risks once he left Portland.

 

To make it short Salvatore's treason is not predictable, very immersion-friendly and totally matches the rest of the scenario.

 

Worst: Ryder, his treason was clearly hastily written and doesn't look at all like it was supposed to happen since CJ only seems to notice Big Smoke and doesn't even mention Ryder afterwards. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Ryder's dubber suddenly gave up his job and Rockstar was forced to cope with this unpredicted event at the last minute.

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Guest Billy Russo

Best: Big Smoke or Dimitri. Both were great to me, I know some people think Smoke was too obvious but that doesn't detract from him being a great character in my view.

 

Worst: Ryder and Lance Vance. They both just felt forced to me, Lance Vance was the better of the two. 

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OG Freddy LOC
On 11/13/2019 at 7:24 PM, Evil empire said:

Best: (Having never played GTA 4) Salvatore Leone who thinks Claude has a crush with Maria, GTA 3 doesn't leave many clues about the upcoming treason, the choice of a rigged car implies the Leones sufficiently respect Claude not to murder him for such a petty reason, it decreases the number of witnesses likely to denunce Salvatore since the only person he needs is 8-Balls who doesn't even has to know who's the target, the mission with Mike Forelli already made you familiar with this kind of murder technic which shows Salvatore is determined to wipe you out. The Red Light District gives Sal a good opportunity to accuse the Triads. What's more this treason gives a very good immersion-friendly explanation about the fact you need to start again from scratch in Staunton, the reason why Asuka is so eager to hire you and why Claude becomes so treacherous and takes so many risks once he left Portland.

 

To make it short Salvatore's treason is not predictable, very immersion-friendly and totally matches the rest of the scenario.

 

Worst: Ryder, his treason was clearly hastily written and doesn't look at all like it was supposed to happen since CJ only seems to notice Big Smoke and doesn't even mention Ryder afterwards. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Ryder's dubber suddenly gave up his job and Rockstar was forced to cope with this unpredicted event at the last minute.

 

 

The BEST Betrayal was a classic form of can't beat that DMA design plot when Catalina splits up with CJ , after the race against Claude Speed ,

CJ gets the run-down garage in San Fierro while Claude gets with Catalina into Liberty City , where she betrays Claude to King Courtney , after nine years 

of partnership.

 

The worst betrayal was TLAD by Brian Jeremy deceives  Johnny Kleibitz to discuss a truce while arranging an ambush for the Alderney chapter.

 

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Americana

Umm... yeah, but... CJ got a garage in a very good location in San Fierro... that's not bad, even though CJ whines about it all the time.

 

When it comes to the best betrayal... Dimitri. 

 

When it comes to the worst one... well... I would say Big Smoke / Ryder, but Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has a terrible story (it's more like set of over 100 missions without any meaning), so.. yeah.

 


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AirWolf359
On 11/13/2019 at 12:24 PM, Evil empire said:

Worst: Ryder, his treason was clearly hastily written and doesn't look at all like it was supposed to happen since CJ only seems to notice Big Smoke and doesn't even mention Ryder afterwards. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Ryder's dubber suddenly gave up his job and Rockstar was forced to cope with this unpredicted event at the last minute.

That is exactly what happened. See here:

 

Edited by AirWolf359
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billiejoearmstrong8

I don't see why the Ryder/Big Smoke betrayal is bad? Gang members with secret allegiances betraying other gang members seems plausible enough and it certainly surprised me the first time I played the game. And then getting arrested and finding yourself blindfolded in the middle of nowhere was probably my favourite twist in the story.

 

I think Dimitri is a brilliant character and the GTA IV story is the best but I don't know if the betrayal is that amazing in itself. There's plenty of hints that it's going to happen (the moment he said "we're your friends now" I was like yeah right), and the dude already had his business partner who was almost like a brother killed so was he going to treat me better? And you weren't working for him as an equal partner or friend, you were kidnapped, almost tortured and murdered, and then forced to work for him and Faustin in order to make up for killing Vlad. I can't imagine expecting anything else but being betrayed by him and imo it was already obvious he wasn't a decent guy, he just wasn't as hot headed as Faustin. It's a great part of the story and all the betrayal scenes and dialogue are very good but the betrayal itself isn't much of a twist. 

 

Lance's betrayal surprised me the most, like damn. That's probably my favourite. 

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8
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Algonquin Assassin
8 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I don't see why the Ryder/Big Smoke betrayal is bad? Gang members with secret allegiances betraying other gang members seems plausible enough and it certainly surprised me the first time I played the game. And then getting arrested and finding yourself blindfolded in the middle of nowhere was probably my favourite twist in the story.

 

Each to their own. I didn't find anything surprising about either of their betrayals (as I explained above). However this is mostly due that I don't like CJ so their "betrayals" didn't really have an impact on me whatsoever. 

 

8 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I think Dimitri is a brilliant character and the GTA IV story is the best but I don't know if the betrayal is that amazing in itself. There's plenty of hints that it's going to happen (the moment he said "we're your friends now" I was like yeah right), and the dude already had his business partner who was almost like a brother killed so was he going to treat me better? And you weren't working for him as an equal partner or friend, you were kidnapped, almost tortured and murdered, and then forced to work for him and Faustin in order to make up for killing Vlad. I can't imagine expecting anything else but being betrayed by him and imo it was already obvious he wasn't a decent guy, he just wasn't as hot headed as Faustin. It's a great part of the story and all the betrayal scenes and dialogue are very good but the betrayal itself isn't much of a twist. 

I think we've had a discussion on this before and I agree the "betrayal" itself isn't that much of a twist however I don't think it needed to be. In a world where we're working for other scumbags it's hard to picture anyone being a good/decent person. Dimitri isn't a good person, but IMO he does/done a better job of hiding his true heinous nature compared to other antagonists.

 

If anything at all it shows he's a good manipulator and a snake that he was able to gain Niko's trust. When I first played GTA IV I just didn't think of him as anything more than a typical contact and when his role done in the story he would just disappear even if it meant killing him that early. I didn't think he was going to end up as the primary antagonist and I certainly didn't expect to see Bulgarin.

 

The more I think about it the way the whole thing plays out is to purposely play on the player's/Niko's sense of security. Even Niko himself is suspicious of having to meet him at the warehouse which is why gets LJ to come along as back up. Maybe in his mind he suspected Dimitri might've sold him out, but IMO the real twist here is Bulgarin.

 

Someone might've been able to connect the dots regarding Dimitri, but no one in their right mind could've foreseen Bulgarin turning up. It's a shame as Bulargin isn't that well utilised after this, but that's for another discussion. Him turning up was a genuine "WTF is going on?" moment though and then everything just fell apart with Roman having his apartment and taxi depot burnt down and they had to flee to Bohan.

 

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billiejoearmstrong8
5 hours ago, SonOfLiberty said:

 

 

I think we've had a discussion on this before and I agree the "betrayal" itself isn't that much of a twist however I don't think it needed to be. In a world where we're working for other scumbags it's hard to picture anyone being a good/decent person. Dimitri isn't a good person, but IMO he does/done a better job of hiding his true heinous nature compared to other antagonists.

 

If anything at all it shows he's a good manipulator and a snake that he was able to gain Niko's trust. When I first played GTA IV I just didn't think of him as anything more than a typical contact and when his role done in the story he would just disappear even if it meant killing him that early. I didn't think he was going to end up as the primary antagonist and I certainly didn't expect to see Bulgarin.

 

The more I think about it the way the whole thing plays out is to purposely play on the player's/Niko's sense of security. Even Niko himself is suspicious of having to meet him at the warehouse which is why gets LJ to come along as back up. Maybe in his mind he suspected Dimitri might've sold him out, but IMO the real twist here is Bulgarin.

 

Someone might've been able to connect the dots regarding Dimitri, but no one in their right mind could've foreseen Bulgarin turning up. It's a shame as Bulargin isn't that well utilised after this, but that's for another discussion. Him turning up was a genuine "WTF is going on?" moment though and then everything just fell apart with Roman having his apartment and taxi depot burnt down and they had to flee to Bohan.

 

Oh wow yeah, I agree that Bulgarin turning up is the real twist. So awesome when he steps out of the shadows "Hello Niko". Also agree that Dimitri betraying Niko didn't need to be much of a twist. I think it's a brilliantly well written part of the story but the fact he betrayed him just doesn't stand out as the most important or surprising part of it to me, so I wouldn't pick it as best betrayal.

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OG Freddy LOC
16 hours ago, AirWolf359 said:

That is exactly what happened. See here:

 

 

Lance or RYDER's rift with the Johnson's started in the meet up at the Jefferson Motel ,  where the Grove St. family , factions, sub-sets  get together

to fight the rival Ballas. RYDER rejected the idea of recruiting non-GSF members into the hood.

The LSPD raid on the motel failed to bust the four some.

 

Although the cut scenes never showed the real story in which Cesar Vialpando is the culprit , behind the betrayal.

Cesar loathed  RYDER for the rejection of non GSF members into the hood, Cesar tells Kendl 

 to inform the Johnson's about the two witnesses.

Smoke and Ryder under duress, meet with CRASH' Tenpenny who ordered the two.

 

CJ didn't kill Ryder in the canon- story although in the gameplay Ryder escapes to the boat ____where CJ supposedly 

pursued and ____dropped Ryder___on the way back to Los Santos.

 

Ryder is alive and well in the story(canon).

Edited by OG Freddy LOC

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Algonquin Assassin
2 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Oh wow yeah, I agree that Bulgarin turning up is the real twist. So awesome when he steps out of the shadows "Hello Niko". Also agree that Dimitri betraying Niko didn't need to be much of a twist. I think it's a brilliantly well written part of the story but the fact he betrayed him just doesn't stand out as the most important or surprising part of it to me, so I wouldn't pick it as best betrayal.

Even though it's not one of those "You totally didn't see that coming" kind of betrayals I still think its after effects are what put it up there. Dimitri shows his true colours and what kind of a snake he really is and I don't know about you, but when you start to feel like you want to throttle someone like that it's pretty powerful (by video game standards anyway). The crazy thing is I suspected something was going to go down, but it still caught me off guard by subverting my expectations with the whole Bulgarin thing.

 

I think with a lesser script it wouldn't have been done so convincingly, but GTA IV's strong writing kept it together for that moment to still stand strong.

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Max.pain

i think dimitri and bulgarin’s betrayal was surprising in a way, but not as surprising as Lance’ considering dimitri wanted niko to “come alone” on the phone.

 

ryder’s betrayal was weak, cjc didn’t even mention him. i don’t care about the beta stuff it looks stupid. smoke’s was alright.

Edited by Max.pain
cjc lol
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iiCriminnaaL 49

Best: Rascalov's. Not that it was very surprising the moment when he told Niko to meet him alone, but as SoL mentioned, it's more about the way it happened. Luring Niko to Bulgarin in a warehouse and locking him there along with his and the latter's goons. Not to mention that him acting kinda friendly in the beginning makes it even more of a shock.

 

Worst: Aside from Stretch in GTA V, I'd go for Ryder's in San Andreas. Unlike Smoke, there wasn't any hint of his betrayal whatsoever. Some would say that he "ran away" when he was supposed to get Smoke and some backup in the mission House Party, when in fact, the fight was already over by the time he would've gotten back. Otherwise, you'd see him getting questioned by Sweet and CJ later on, which obviously didn't happen. Reuniting The Families was even a clearer situation, given the fact that he (along with Big Smoke) returned back to the Johnson brothers in the Jefferson Motel after picking an AK-47 from Emmet. Hell, he even risked his own life along with CJ to get the Grove Street Families more powerful guns than they used to be (Tec-9s rather than only 9mm Colts). The Introduction doesn't count, since it was made after the game's release. That all make sense though, given the fact that he wasn't intended to be a traitor to begin with.

Edited by iiCriminnaaL 49
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Max.pain
4 minutes ago, iiCriminnaaL 49 said:

Aside from Stretch in GTA V

hahaha 😂😂😂 i forgot that guy existed

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Algonquin Assassin
6 minutes ago, Max.pain said:

hahaha 😂😂😂 i forgot that guy existed

I think the 95 million people (or whoever bought GTA V) did. 

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Outlaw Biker Viking

Best: Dimitri Rascalov in GTA IV. You literally think that Mikhail Faustin is the real problem instead of him but after you kill Faustin, it turns out to be the complete opposite. Jimmy Pegorino’s betrayal is also a good one IMO. Not AS good as Dimitri’s but still a good one. I honestly think Ray Bulgarin’s betrayal wasn’t that bad of one either. I could understand one coming to the conclusion at first that “okay, maybe he’s okay with Luis but not Niko” especially considering the fact that Patrick McReary is okay with Niko but not Luis. So yeah..Ray’s betrayal wasn’t THAT predictable in my book. Not NEAR as good as Dimitri’s betrayal but still..

 

Worst: Steve Haines, Devin Weston, and Molly Schultz from GTA V. A corrupt federal agent, a narcissistic billionaire, and a condescending lawyer. I totally did NOT see ANY of those three coming whatsoever! (I shouldn’t have to point it out, but I am being HIGHLY sarcastic) Also, let’s not forget the betrayals of Stretch and Wei Cheng from V. Oh wait a second! I almost forgot they were even characters!

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Copcaller

Best- Claude betraying Kenji kasen to instigate a gang war between the cartel and Yakuza gaining a powerful Ally against the cartel and lowering property values for Donald love real shrewd move by Claude. 

 

Worst- Stretch from gta v and Ryder from gta San Andreas 

 

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Lemoyne outlaw

im surprised nobody has mentioned this person yet. then again most people just talk about dimitri or smoke like whats happening here. but i would say the best was martinez. first off i think the whole idea of starting off in the army was very cool and unique to the series. and i was actually upset that vic got betrayed. in fact every time martinez appeared after the betrayal i was cursing him with vic.

 

 

i would say the worst goes to stretch. he hardly has any screen time. and in the one mission he appears in besides his optional death. he definitely seemed like the kind of guy that would betray us.

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Tao Cheng

Best: Claude sniping Salvatore's spaghetti brains all over the floor. 

 

Worst: Dimitri who cares about the powerful plot twist and story structure? The world definitely revolves around me Tao Cheng, and my emotions! It almost made my heart break, so therefore it's the worst.

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Algonquin Assassin
7 hours ago, Tao Cheng said:

Worst: Dimitri who cares about the powerful plot twist and story structure? The world definitely revolves around me Tao Cheng, and my emotions! It almost made my heart break, so therefore it's the worst.

Image result for what the fuck gif

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Max.pain
13 hours ago, Tao Cheng said:

Best: Claude sniping Salvatore's spaghetti brains all over the floor.

but it...was not a betrayal 

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TheJesus1996
14 hours ago, Tao Cheng said:

The world definitely revolves around me Tao Cheng, and my emotions! It almost made my heart break, so therefore it's the worst.

Best character of GTA V!

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watersgta3
Posted (edited)

Best: Dimitri Rascalov. Honest, what is there that has to be said that ain't been said before? His betrayal was set up well due to the fact that he was very good at manipulating others, especially the main protagonist. His motivation was crystal clear and highly believable. Greatest betrayal in GTA.

 

Worst: Ryder. Big Smoke's betrayal was well thought-out, and he had a reasonable motivation for his actions. Ryder's betrayal on the other hand makes no sense at all. His hostility towards the Ballas and dedication towards Grove Street was all too genuine, and he has absolutely no real motivation for his actions, nor was there even any foreshadowing or any clues, unlike Smoke. He's just a traitor for the sake of a twist. Even the introduction was a poorly executed motive on his part. On top of that, it made him feel like a minor character who suddenly becomes unimportant and forgotten after his unceremonious demise even though he started off as a main character. Worst written betrayal ever.

 

 

Edited by watersgta3
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Utopianthumbs
Posted (edited)

Surprised no one has mentioned Mr Townley's betrayal yet. 

 

Best - Lance. In terms of pure shock value this is right at the top for me. Young me was heartbroken when it happened, on subsequent playthroughs I felt bad for the effort Tommy had to go to save Lance in the mission Death Row, all for nothing :(

 

Worst - Stretch I guess. Most of the key antagonists' betrayals like the antagonists in V, Martinez in VCS, Vincenzo in LCS were more 'what took you so long' type of betrayals so depending on the day I could choose any of em. I guess Stretch's one was more comically bad in particular so for now I go with him. 

Edited by Utopianthumbs
It's the middle of night and I really need to get back to bed lol.
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Ahmedmfroezspeed

best betrayal: Vincenzo Cilli's betrayal in GTA Liberty City Stories

reason: sh*t, i knew this son of a bitch would betray me

worst betrayal: Big Smoke and Ryder's betrayal in GTA San Andreas

reason: i f*cking ADORED these characters, man...

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Jeansowaty
6 hours ago, Ahmedmfroezspeed said:

best betrayal: Vincenzo Cilli's betrayal in GTA Liberty City Stories

reason: sh*t, i knew this son of a bitch would betray me

worst betrayal: Big Smoke and Ryder's betrayal in GTA San Andreas

reason: i f*cking ADORED these characters, man...

Imo it was Toni who betrayed Vincenzo by crushing his car :p

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Utopianthumbs
9 minutes ago, Jeansowaty said:

Imo it was Toni who betrayed Vincenzo by crushing his car :p

I think Vincenzo clearly tried to set him up, he knew the police were watching the car, either he hoped Toni would get caught or he didn't want to take the risk himself and thought even if anything happened to Toni he wouldn't care. I think it's the former personally but even if it's the latter there's no excuse for risking Toni's life like that so I wouldn't consider it betrayal on Toni's part. 

Also I think Toni and Vincenzos dialogue after Toni escapes the police is one of the underrated dialogues of GTA. 

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Jowday
9 hours ago, Utopianthumbs said:

Best - Lance. In terms of pure shock value this is right at the top for me. Young me was heartbroken when it happened, on subsequent playthroughs I felt bad for the effort Tommy had to go to save Lance in the mission Death Row, all for nothing :(

same feelings... this was the mother of all gta betrayals 

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